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The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
byhaaz ( 3346 ) writes:
I've never been prouder (more proud?) to live in Madison than I am now. Last night the city council voted to passed the "Resolution to Defend the Bill of Rights and Civil Liberties," which removes the city and its services and subordinates from participating in the PATRIOT Act. Seventeen of the twenty alders voted in favor of the resolution, two voted against it, and one (the hard-right conservative who's been lightening up lately) abstained.
This is what an effective local democracy gives you: people who implement what you think and feel in the local legislative body. Considering that our city council has a near-majority of Greens/ Progressives, I can't wait until we get a true majority on board. Really good stuff (and a hell of a lot of work!) may start to happen.
Speaking of local democracy, there's a conference on that very subject coming up next month. Community Power 2002 [localdemocracy.org] will be bringing in people from England, Brazil, Santa Barbara CA, Pennsylvania, and Hartford CT to talk about their experiences with l.d. We'll be planning for it here in our county, and possibly other communities if we get enough people from another place to do it. Should be good!
bymesocyclone ( 80188 ) writes:
In that case, I hope the next terrorist attack happens in Madison! If it does, your alders will be out of office before sundown! I am sure that if the terrorists read about this, they will consider your find city a good place to set up their bases.
If terrorism succeeds, it will be because democracies are unwilling to protect themselves from it. Too many citizens are too wrapped up in themselves and their petty ideologies to realize that there are really bad people out there who will do really bad things to them, no matter how idealistic they are!
Grow up and get a life, before the terrorists take yours!
by_ganja_ ( 179968 ) writes:
Oh come on! Do you believe all propaganda or only most of it? A prime example of what Lenin called a "Useful Idiot".
Wishing a terrorist attack on Madison because they do not hold the same narrow minded views as you is something I find despicable and ignorant but to flame is not constructive, so I offer you food for thought.
The patriots who setup the American constitution understood tyrants and the human failings of greed and power lust hence the checks and balances therein. If these checks and balances are removed for whatever excuse, I would certainly smell a rat. Members of the Congress & Senate pledge an oath to uphold the constitution when taking office however; they have just granted Bush the ability to declare war which the constitution clearly forbids and I think this spells trouble.
Everything isn't a cut and dried as you or Bush like to make out, this simplistic view of the world where there are good guys in white hats and bad guys in black hats is childish and ignorant yet you tell others to grow up.
Some Americans who have retained some critical thinking abilities are realising the people in the white house hijacked a nations grief to throw the nation in to a perpetual war. People like you label these anti-American but let me ask you this: When has it ever been American to blindly follow a leader?
Real people will die in the upcoming war against Iraq, real families will grieve for the loss of loved ones and for what? OIL.
Here are a couple [whatreallyhappened.com]
of [guardian.co.uk]
links [thememoryhole.org]
If terrorists did attack Madison, after going against the Ashcroft patriot act, who would it really help? Certainly Would remind me of the Lavon Affair [geocities.com] or maybe closer to Operation Northwoods. [whatreallyhappened.com]
bymesocyclone ( 80188 ) writes:
Well written, but you make a number of mistakes...
First of all, I don't wish a terrorist attack on Madison. I wish that if there is a terrorist attack, it hits Madison rather than some place which is supporting our very real need to protect ourselves against these terrorists.
Second, the Patriot Act does not remove checks and balances. Checks and balances are in fact the mechanisms built into the constitution to allow the different branches of government to block each other. In the case of the Patriot Act, two branches have come together, with lots of compromising, to produce a set of laws. A third branch is available to strike down any parts of that which are unconstitutional. IOW checks and balances is about structural mechanisms, not the contents of laws. At least use the right terminology.
This discussion is about the Patriot Act. You bring up "the ability to declare war." This has nothing to do with the Patriot Act. Furthermore, given that this is an act of Congress enabling the president to make war, it is pretty clearly exactly what the founders intended. Also, if you would check history, the US has been in many wars, but only a few declared wars. Bush is doing nothing new in that regard.
You next imply that those capable of critical thinking "realize that... the white house hijacked a nations grief... perpetual war."
Wrong! First of all, the white house and congress responded to the peoples' justifiable anger. Second, many with critical thinking skills have analyzed the situation and agree with the president. If you choose to call this "blindy following," perhaps this is because you yourself blindly follow your ideology rather than reason. You may think the American citizenry, who strongly support military action, to be dolts and idiots who can be easily fooled. I have a bit more respect for them, apparently. If you really think we are all that dumb, why don't you support some sore of enlightened dictatorship by those "who have retained critical thinking" capabilities? As far as perpetual war, it is our opponents, the Islamists, who have in fact *declared* perpetual war against us. Did you perhaps not notice this fact during your moment of critical thinking?
Real people always die in war. This is not exactly a revelation! We did not start this war, but we have already lost 3000 civilians. These civilians were targeted. They had families too! It is the duty of the government to try to prevent more of this, and the Patriot Act contains a number of useful measures to help with this. It also contains some silliness, as one would expect of most acts where hundreds of congressmen have to disagreed. Don't be fooled by the name of the act. Congress always uses silly names for legislation.
You believe you retain critical thinking skills. Fine. At least provide them with some useful data to operate on. The sources you cite are hardly the only ways to find out what is going on. NONE of them address the current situation!
Your first two cites are full of lies. For example, Johnson did *not* want a war in Vietnam. Johnson was a fool, but not that kind of fool. Johnson inherited the war, believed that it was wrong to back out of it (he was right about that), and fell into a deep depression because of that war. Your source makes unprovable assertions that Johnson wanted the war for economic benefit. If that is what you consider critical thinking, it is telling!
Clinton did not block humanitarian aid to Iraq... Saddam Hussein instead did and does *hijack* that aid (which is mostly in UN allowed oil sales) to build weapons. But then, since the source was the notorious left wing UK Guardian, I am not surprised that it is full of anti-American nonsense.
Your first and third sources attempt to tell us that dictators use war to distract from problems at home. Duh! Gee, I guess none of us knew that or read Orwell. This is hardly news.
But it is also not evidence Bush's motivations. It applies much better to the Arab nations who have actual dictators, and who use anti-semitism, anti-Zionism and anti-Americanism to distract *their* population. It was this behavior by Saudi Arabia that directly contributed to 9/11.
I don't have the historical information to judge your fourth cite (the Lavon affair), but it also doesn't materially affect this discussion, so who cares. I can only assume you put it in there to imply that either Israel or Bush caused 9-11 on purpose. If that slander is what you meant, have the balls to say it directly.
Your fifth cite, which if it is true took place 40 years go, shows a silly plan like you *again* appear to be indirectly accusing the US of now. was shot down as soon as it got near a reasonable official. This shows the strength of our system.
byYunzil ( 181064 ) writes:
First of all, I don't wish a terrorist attack on Madison. I wish that if there is a terrorist attack, it hits Madison rather than some place which is supporting our very real need to protect ourselves against these terrorists.
We don't have any more "need" now than we ever did. And if you've been following the news, it appears that even without the Patriot Act, the intelligence community had enough information to stop the attacks, but someone at the CIA didn't bother to pick up the phone to the FBI. Or was it the other way around?
First of all, the white house and congress responded to the peoples' justifiable anger.
Yeah...with a knee-jerk "We Got To Do Something " reaction.
As far as perpetual war, it is our opponents, the Islamists, who have in fact *declared* perpetual war against us.
So we should reduce ourselves to their level?
bymesocyclone ( 80188 ) writes:
I agree that we have had a need for a long time. It was made clear by the *first* attack on the world trade center that we had enemies that were willing to murder people on an unprecedented scale for terrorism. The feckless Clinton administration, in spite of this, failed to do anything to improve our abilities to catch terrorists *before* they caused the problem. The Patriot Act contains a number of measures which do in fact help in that regard.
To you it is knee-jerk. I suppose that trite phrase is how you characterize such things. I think it a more accurate description would be "long overdue."
What makes you think we are reducing ourselves to their level? We haven't decided to sneak into THEIR countries and target civilians.
But, in fact, if they are willing to declare war on us by attacking our civilians, they deserve to face dire consequences. If they continue to do so, we may very well have to kill lost of people, including lots of civilians, to protect ourselves.
But it appears that you do not understand the difference between self defense and premeditated mass murder.
by_ganja_ ( 179968 ) writes:
Dude, you come across as a pompous smart ass kid that has all the answers. Yet all you do is spout the Bush administration's line verbatim. I know the administrations line without you repeating it and as I have demonstrated I do not agree with it for the reasons I have outlined earlier.
You and I have totally different philosophies; I do not agree that wars can ever be justified. It would be easy to refute your arguments but pointless as you are determined you are correct no matter how fallious you logic appears to other. I agree with Einstein's thoughts on the matter of war:
"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."
When you have lived through the horrors of war or maybe when people like Bush are sending your children to a far off land for a conquest of resources you might change your mind?
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bymesocyclone ( 80188 ) writes:
I'm a kid? Hey - I like that. I haven't been a kid for over 40 years. I am also a Vietnam Veteran, dude.
So don't give me your trite phrases about war. Some of us have been around enough to know that the world just ain't that simple.
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