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The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
byGuspaz ( 556486 ) writes:
They could have simply specified that a browser must support ONE of the two options, h.264 or Theora. This would have at least provided a reference to websites, such that they can guarantee that they need support no more than two codecs. Without a standard, they can't necessarily guarantee that a browser will support either. A third party browser may come by and decide to implement nothing but MJPEG since it isn't specified.
I mean, there are legitimate concerns in both camps. Theora's hardware support is non-existent, and h.264 has expensive licensing fees. So why not allow browser manufactuerers to pick the one that best suits their position, rather than leaving it undefined entirely?
A guarantee of at least one of two being supported is better than no guarantee at all.
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bybroken_chaos ( 1188549 ) writes:
[...]and h.264 has expensive licensing fees.
A solution to this is to get rid of software patents - or live somewhere they aren't valid.
As has been discussed before, it's also possible (even likely) that some content of the Theora codec is covered by some other software patents, given the huge number of patents granted. It's simply not known if/what patents could apply to it. That's not a reason to *not* use it, but it is a reason to be concerned for the same reason as concern about H.264.
bybroken_chaos ( 1188549 ) writes:
You really missed the point of what I said there. I specifically said it's not a reason to *not* use Theora, but it's a reason to be concerned. There may be unknown patents that cover something in Theora that is *not* used in H.264 as well - and vice versa.
It's also a bit of risk management with choosing one codec and supporting it (the one that's *already* supported by the OS) so they won't be potentially double-liable for patent infringement (or liable for different sets of unknown patents).
Theora's also,
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bysamkass ( 174571 ) writes:
HTML doesn't specify what image format must be supported (PNG, GIF, JPG, etc); why is video any different? If HTML had specified GIF explicitly up-front, we'd all be in trouble when UniSys became dicks about it.
Let the market decide. If h.264 succeeds despite the extra cost, it means folks found enough value to justify the cost. If DivX or VC1 come out of nowhere to take over the web we won't be left with an out-dated standard. If a sleeper patent hits Theora hard we'll be glad we didn't lock ourselves down.
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byianare ( 1132971 ) writes:
That's a good point, but the bandwidth and storage requirements of images pale in comparison to video. I've had to make sites using GIF for IE6 and PNG for browsers that don't suck (to take advantage of the alpha channel). It was a PITA, but the extra storage requirements were not that big a deal. Doing the same with video would be much more of a problem, even with today's cheap storage.
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byTwinkieStix ( 571736 ) writes:
I don't think that this argument holds water. In 1999, I had to choose what image format to use, and I didn't have enough space to store two copies of all of my images. Sometimes I used PNG, and sometimes I used JPEG (depending on if I needed lossy or lossless) or if I needed transparent images. And, even then, I had to use a hack to get the transparent PNGs to work properly in IE. Today's cheap storage is...
That sounds a lot like what we are proposing now with this H.264 and Theora battle. And, just l
byBenoitRen ( 998927 ) writes:
Not to mention all the libraries that web browsers would have to ship with to enable playback of all the codecs. And unlike image formats, new codecs get developed all the time.
Now, one could suggest to just use the codecs installed on the system itself. But then we go back to the old situation of having to have a ton of codecs installed and having to hunt for codecs we don't know have, which is always a pain in the behind.
bygbarules2999 ( 1440265 ) writes:
I can't say much about Windows (I just install VLC), but in Ubuntu, the codecs are just a single "ubuntu-restricted-extras" away, and for all of the video formats it plays it doesn't really take up that much room. Maybe 20 MB?
And there are only two major codecs being discussed now. Websites will flock to whatever most people have installed, so whatever IE and maybe Firefox picks will be first choice. If you force people to install an obscure codec, they don't see your content - bad for traffic.
byBitZtream ( 692029 ) writes:
I never understood this kind of stupidity. By the time you've made all the images to make it look good in IE, why the hell do you use a whole different set of images for other browsers.
I realize making HTML IE friendly is a pain in the ass, but if you go through all that effort and don't just use it for the other browsers its your own fault.
byswilver ( 617741 ) writes:
So, tomorrow (when HTML5 is released) there won't be a problem anymore then?
bypbhj ( 607776 ) writes:
Storage is a major issue (imagine running a video site and the W3C suddenly changing tack and meaning you'll need at least twice the storage) but we mustn't forget transcoding is also a major resource drain.
byLocutus ( 9039 ) writes:
you forgot this one, if a sleeper patent hits h.264, DivX, VC1, or any of the codecs then in every case it will have to be dealt with. Sorry, I just don't buy the bit about only one codec, the open source one, being subject to patent issues.
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byTigerTime ( 626140 ) writes:
Actually the browsers support those formats natively. Images will not appear on a webpage through a browser, unless that browser supports it. PNG didn't not always display in browsers. You don't see TIFF images in a browsers because the browser doesn't support those images. Beyond the native types, you need plugins to view the rest.
They should make the video standard support both of these formats since it appears that the biggest vendors support one or the other. A limit of one format is a bit restrictive.
bypizzach ( 1011925 ) writes:
If mng or apng were put as a baseline in a w3c spec maybe some browser vendors would actually implement them. Jpeg/gif have been around and about the only thing in use for the last decade and a half. You can't tell me that the market decided that they didn't want animated dancing bananas with more than 256 colors and good alpha transparency support. We barely got png with transparency working in all the major browsers nowadays.
I do agree the the video format should by no means be restricted though.
byGuspaz ( 556486 ) writes:
A restriction and a requirement are not the same thing. Browsers could be *required* to support at least one of Theora or h.264. That doesn't prevent them from implementing both or others, it merely ensures that they support at least one.
I'd also argue that the lack of requirements might explain why we're still stuck with JPEG for lossy compression in browsers despite the numerous wavelet-based image codecs (such as JPEG2000 at the very least) being available for a decade or more.
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byJohn Whitley ( 6067 ) writes:
Theora's hardware support is non-existent
Huh? Theora would have hardware support fired up within three blinks of its ratification as part of HTML5 and the release of browsers supporting it. For many (most? all?) instances, such "hardware" support is often implemented on DSP core(s), not a dedicated ASIC just for a specific codec, making the update just a matter of new firmware for existing systems.
Allowing a "pick one" scenario means that third-party content providers have no freaking clue what format they can present their data in for their use
byGuspaz ( 556486 ) writes:
And so instead they can't even be sure if either of them are implemented, and will potentially have to encode their video in even MORE formats than just two...
byshutdown -p now ( 807394 ) writes:
It's definitely a better option, but there is a catch - it means that content providers who want to reach the widest possible audience will need to encode video in H.264. And that means that they will need H.264 encoders, which are by definition non-free (since license fees must be payed for those).
Now consider something like Wikipedia. Since videos are uploaded by the users, it would effectively require all of them to have licensed H.264 codecs to contribute - which is an unacceptable burden for a Free enc
bymaxume ( 22995 ) writes:
Or they could allow uploading of any format but only serve bandwidth friendly formats.
Then people who felt okay about buying an expensive encoder could do the mindless chore of downloading, compressing and uploading.
Inefficient, but not that inefficient, and plenty workable.
byDavid Gerard ( 12369 ) writes:
This is something Wikimedia would love to actually do - the only barriers are technical, not political or legal (as far as we're concerned). That is, it sounds easy to say "we'll do uploads of anything, run it through ffmpeg and save" but the devs have actually been seriously considering the infrastructure this would need in practice with the sizes of the likely videos and the demands on the sites. See discussions on wikitech-l and foundation-l. Summary: it's not that easy, but we definitely want to do just
byaccount_deleted ( 4530225 ) writes:
Comment removed based on user account deletion
byGuspaz ( 556486 ) writes:
Semantics. There is a fee to use h.264. It doesn't matter what you call it, a codec licensing fee or a patent licensing fee, that doesn't change the fact that there's a fee to pay.
byaccount_deleted ( 4530225 ) writes:
Comment removed based on user account deletion
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