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The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
by0xG ( 712423 ) writes:
We put down a fully refundable deposit, but they told us 1-2 years wait for delivery.
That was for a RAV4 or Highlander.
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byMtViewGuy ( 197597 ) writes:
I expect that to drop dramatically because Toyota just recently opened a new battery plant for their hybrid models. And I wouldn't be surprised that Toyota will start sourcing battery packs from third parties for their burgeoning hybrid lineup.
byLuckyo ( 1726890 ) writes:
Maybe, but unlikely. RAV4s and Corollas have been all hybrid in much of the world for a while now. But those have tiny batteries, lowest end models don't even have a single kWh of capacity (1.8L Corolla for example has somewhere between 0,7 and 0,8 kWh battery for example). It's there to work as a regenerative braking's storage, not something that offers meaningful range. Also these hybrids can generally take both NiMH and Li-ion versions of the battery. It's generally so small that added weight from going with NiMH is just about ten kilos for low end models and about 20 for higher end ones.
This is how Toyota managed to keep delivering these even during the pandemic supply chain woes worldwide. You can actually just put a different battery type in if you need to.
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byq_e_t ( 5104099 ) writes:
https://media.toyota.co.uk/wp-... [toyota.co.uk]. 18.1kWh.
byFortnite_Beast ( 10429778 ) writes:
Right, for plug in hybrid. OP is talking about traditional legacy hybrid.
byLuckyo ( 1726890 ) writes:
Funny considering I'm posting it from a device that has several batteries in it.
byq_e_t ( 5104099 ) writes:
OP is talking about traditional legacy hybrid.
Might as well be talking buggy whips. It's not where the market is now.
byLuckyo ( 1726890 ) writes:
Overwhelming majority of hybrids sold are HEVs. Part of it is novelty of PHEV, part them being significantly more expensive.
Market is very much overwhelming majority ICEs outside PRC, though in developed world they're giving way to HEVs. This is a world wide issue. Though hybrids are starting to become more mainstream recently. Mainly driven by the fact that Toyota lost its hybrid drive train patent in most places, so everyone and their grandmother developed analogues about a decade ago. Only do make a lot
byq_e_t ( 5104099 ) writes:
Overwhelming majority of hybrids sold are HEVs.
Your example was the RAV4. You were wrong about its battery capacity.
byLuckyo ( 1726890 ) writes:
Corolla. Specifically 1,8L version.
byq_e_t ( 5104099 ) writes:
Actually, looking at the Bureau of Transportation statistics (https://www.bts.gov/content/gasoline-hybrid-and-electric-vehicle-sales) - a somewhat better source, I concede that HEVs are dominating. That may be because of the rapid growth of BEVs.
byLuckyo ( 1726890 ) writes:
BEV are actually plateauing in most places, going up in some and already going down in others.
This is likely because of miscalculation in terms of "who pays for luxury level cars?" Fundamentally you're looking at several groups. One of the three main ones is upper class that need to signal status. These are very long term oriented people, who think in years if not decades. They generally live in expensive homes where they can afford to put rapid private charger in so car is almost always charged.
For two oth
byq_e_t ( 5104099 ) writes:
All figures I've seen show increases in BEV. Where have you seen declines?
byLuckyo ( 1726890 ) writes:
For example, Germany. Something over 20% decline in 2024 IIRC.
byq_e_t ( 5104099 ) writes:
I thought you'd come back with that. A decline for one year due to a tax change followed by a jump in sales afterwards. That is not a very relevant example for the reasons I stated. Any other examples?
byLuckyo ( 1726890 ) writes:
Sure. France is also down in 2024. In fact the entire top five European markets as a whole saw a drop in spite of UK's extreme mandate forcing an over 20% growth in sales in 2024. I can go on, but you can frankly google this, or ask ChatGPT.
byq_e_t ( 5104099 ) writes:
Sure. France is also down in 2024. In fact the entire top five European markets as a whole saw a drop in spite of UK's extreme mandate forcing an over 20% growth in sales in 2024. I can go on, but you can frankly google this, or ask ChatGPT.
I did:
In 2024, approximately 291,143 new battery electric vehicles (BEVs) were registered in France, representing 16.9% of the total passenger car market. This indicates a slight increase in market share compared to 2023, despite a 3.17% decrease in overall new car sales. While the total number of new car registrations in France was 1,718,416, the electric vehicle segment showed resilience.
My emphasis. It's a very poor argument for EV sales weakness that you are making here. Let me reiterate a slight increase in market share compared to 2023. That looks like it's doing fine in France but, due to economic issues, people just weren't buying as many cars, but if they were, they were more likely to choose an EV than in 2023. This doesn't look like a shrinking EV market to me.
byq_e_t ( 5104099 ) writes:
In France, electric vehicle (EV) sales in 2025 are projected to see continued growth, though at a slower pace than previous years
So you might suggest that a plateau might be coming, but it has not arrived.
https://www.acea.auto/pc-regis... [acea.auto]
In Q1 2025, new EU car registrations declined by 1.9% compared to Q1 2024
Up until March 2025, battery-electric vehicles (BEVs) accounted for 15.2% of total EU market share, signifying an increase from the low baseline of 12% in Q1 2024.
In the first quarter of 2025, new battery-electric car sales grew by 23.9%, to 412,997 units
You might also read
In Q1 2025, France's electric vehicle (EV) market share was 24.4%, slightly down from 30.1% in the previous quarter. While overall EV sales declined compared to Q1 2024, with total EV registrations dropping from 118,397 to 94,111,
But the context is similar to Germany:
In the first quarter of 2025, electric vehicle (EV) sales in France experienced a decline compared to the same period in 2024, with a drop of over 18%. This contrasts with the overall positive trend in Europe, where EV sales surged by 21% during the same timeframe. The decrease in France is attributed to market uncertainty related to changes in government policies and incentives, potentially causing consumers to delay or reconsider their EV purchases.
But note, France has quite a high level of EV sales in general.
byLuckyo ( 1726890 ) writes:
You're missing critical context of extreme measures EU Commission has demanded nation states take (and nation states largely took) to promote BEVs over everything else.
This particular gravy train is murdering European car manufacturers, which is a key sector. And the moment just one of many extreme measures was dropped in Germany, demand crashed by a fifth. And that's the richest nation on the list. Everyone else is poorer and therefore more price-conscious.
byLuckyo ( 1726890 ) writes:
You literally gave me a marketing wank version of reply, down to the marketing term "resilience" often used to white wash downturns.
Ask chatGPT to give you a proper analysis, and not marketing wank.
byq_e_t ( 5104099 ) writes:
And the moment just one of many extreme measures was dropped in Germany, demand crashed by a fifth.
And then immediately rebounded. So zero net effect.
byq_e_t ( 5104099 ) writes:
Please indicate exactly what prompt you wish me to use, then so that the answer is the one you want and one that you will thus find acceptable. Or, I can do my own analysis which might not be the answers you wish they were.
byq_e_t ( 5104099 ) writes:
This particular gravy train is murdering European car manufacturers
Only if they don't bring BEVs on stream at a price point consumers are willing to purchase them at. Which they are doing. In terms of total market share, European manufacturers in aggregate dominate European BEV sales. Sales are up YoY by 28% Q1 for BEV, slightly up for PHEV. That's not 'murdering European car manufacturers'. In fact, via subsidy, it's been pretty good for them. Chinese-made BEV sales have increased rapidly but are still a rather small percentage of the total. The BEV list is (in order): T
byLuckyo ( 1726890 ) writes:
Did you use an EV to tow the goal posts you yourself initially set, or did you find that diesels are still best for heavy duty work?
byLuckyo ( 1726890 ) writes:
If you're not skilled enough to not get non-marketing output out of chatGPT, just use google. It still works.
byLuckyo ( 1726890 ) writes:
>That's not 'murdering European car manufacturers'.
This is hilarious considering that European manufacturers have been begging and pleading with commission to slow the fuck down because they're dying as a result of its actions for about half a decade at this point.
When you are this fundamentally ignorant of basic situation on the market, and your entire narrative is "BEV are good because they are great and excellent and wonderful and they're making everyone rich, even those flirting with bankruptcy and s
byq_e_t ( 5104099 ) writes:
Eh?
byq_e_t ( 5104099 ) writes:
Oh. I did. That's what I did to get actual European sales figures.
byq_e_t ( 5104099 ) writes:
Please point out where the data I posted is wrong, not your other garbage verbiage please.
because I'm not BEV-religious
Neither am I. But I used data not feelings.
byq_e_t ( 5104099 ) writes:
When you are this fundamentally ignorant of basic situation on the market
Please point out where I am ignorant and in detail with respect to the sales figures.
and your entire narrative is "BEV are good because they are great and excellent and wonderful and they're making everyone rich, even those flirting with bankruptcy and shutting down factories because of them"
My entire narrative is things I haven't said? Wow. I am not sure how I respond to such nonsense. Can you maybe try some substantive points. Where is my data on BEV sales materially wrong?
to just plain old moving goalposts.
In what way did I move the goalposts? You made an assertion about sales, I used evidence to show they you were incorrect. Showing you that you were incorrect is 'moving the goalposts'? Are you for real?
byLuckyo ( 1726890 ) writes:
Total ignorance of hybrid market and auto market in general.
https://slashdot.org/comments.... [slashdot.org]
Total ignorance of EV sales. Part of initial ignorance.
https://slashdot.org/comments.... [slashdot.org]
https://slashdot.org/comments.... [slashdot.org]
Total ignorance of situation in Europe in general when it comes to automotive sector, and politics surrounding it.
At some point normal person would stop and think: "I thought I knew everything relevant to make sweeping arguments. Turned out I was completely wrong. I think it's time I shut up and r
byq_e_t ( 5104099 ) writes:
I made an error about PHEV/HEV battery size and admitted it. That's not BEVs, which is what is now the discussion, so not relevant to your 'murdered in the market' comment.
Total ignorance of EV sales. Part of initial ignorance.
Er, I posted the evidence. That's showing knowledge not ignorance. Don't be so dumb.
At some point normal person would stop and think: "I thought I knew everything relevant to make sweeping arguments. Turned out I was completely wrong.
But you've never done that despite being called out multiple times over your incorrect statements over multiple years.
●th your current threshold.
byLuckyo ( 1726890 ) writes:
You may want to read the comment you replied to. The document you have posted agrees with it full (once you get past the marketing wank).
They even brag that they beefed up the MG2 without telling you they've beefed up MG2 when they changed it from HEV to PHEV.
byMtViewGuy ( 197597 ) writes:
Those hybrid systems found on many Toyotas sold outside the USA aren't the sophisticated hybrid systems like we see on Prius or the current year Camry models. I do think we'll see much more advanced battery packs on the US market Toyotas with hybrid drive to improve fuel economy and/or offer even more range on inital battery power (maybe over 100 km or 62.1 miles) by 2028.
byLuckyo ( 1726890 ) writes:
What on earth are you going on about? Some random marketing wank?
Toyota hybrids (and basically ALL hybrids by all companies today) are ALL built on the same patent from 1980s (or early 1990s, IIRC). The patent features an AC-DC converter, two motor generators and and ICE engine with a planetary gearbox acting as a differential between the three. MG1 is on the sun of a planetary gear set, planets spin freely around their axes while they are connected to ICE, and MG2 is connected to outer orbit. Outer orbit i
byGeoffrey.landis ( 926948 ) writes:
If the hybrids are plug-in hybrids, using electric to run around town, and gas to extend the range, this is nearly as good as fully electric vehicles. Most driving is pretty short distances, and so you only need a pretty small battery.
If they're not... well, why not? Hybrids have electric trains and batteries already, why not go the rest of the way to a plug-in hybrid?
byMacMann ( 7518492 ) writes:
If the hybrids are plug-in hybrids, using electric to run around town, and gas to extend the range, this is nearly as good as fully electric vehicles. Most driving is pretty short distances, and so you only need a pretty small battery.
I can certainly agree, and I'm amazed more people don't make that realization. There's some "purists" that can't comprehend why someone would want or need anything but a BEV. I guess they never had to travel with children on a long trip. The kids want to get home so they can eat, play, nap, or do anything than be strapped to a seat. The shorter the stops the better. Pull up to the pump, Mom takes the kids to the restrooms, Dad pumps the fuel, strap the kids back in, and off you go again. If the kids s
bymarkdavis ( 642305 ) writes:
>"There's some "purists" that can't comprehend why someone would want or need anything but a BEV. I guess they never had to travel with children on a long trip."
There are people blinded to others' positions everywhere, all the time. It is rather frustrating and education is key.
It really comes down to two major things when deciding if you want/need a gas option in your vehicle. First is if the range will meet some X% of your needs, and second is if you can charge adequately at home. Consumers are beco
bydgatwood ( 11270 ) writes:
I know others have different needs and will make their decisions accordingly. Which is why I am vehemently opposed to "bans" and government interference in consumer choice in this matter.
This part, I disagree with. While I'm not in favor of an outright ban, I am strongly in favor of government interference.
The fact is that there are a lot of people for whom the extra cost makes them choose a hybrid when a BEV would also work. Government subsidies can encourage them to buy the BEV instead, and more importantly, can encourage them to replace them on a faster cadence, which increases availability of used BEVs that can be sold to people who can't afford new ones.
And there are also probably a
bymagzteel ( 5013587 ) writes:
So IMO, we absolutely *need* government interference, or progress will stagnate.
Oh for sure, just like when government interfered to induce people to buy smartphones instead of flip phones. Even though we could all agree that smart phones were the future without government policies smart phones would be struggling to catch on.
byBeaverCleaver ( 673164 ) writes:
Oh for sure, just like when government interfered to induce people to buy smartphones instead of flip phones. Even though we could all agree that smart phones were the future without government policies smart phones would be struggling to catch on.
Smartphones were pushed on the consumer by selling phone contracts that gave the phone away for "free." They also gave the manufacturers the opportunity to skimp on development and testing and push the fixes out later by over-the-air updates. Finally, a touchscreen is cheaper than a proper keypad (especially a full QWERTY)
Whereas BEVs are more expensive to make (at least for now, until the cost of new tooling is amortized) and the manufacturers can't claw back as much money from "warranty service."
So in sum
byFortnite_Beast ( 10429778 ) writes:
The government could fix this by requiring gasoline vendors to use the same apps as EV charging networks. This would help address people's unfamiliarity with the charging process. They could also slow the gasoline flow rate at the pumps, so it flows significantly slower after the first 2 gallons, like an EV.
byMacMann ( 7518492 ) writes:
The government could fix this by requiring gasoline vendors to use the same apps as EV charging networks. This would help address people's unfamiliarity with the charging process.
Or... hear me out as this is a pretty wild idea... maybe the EV chargers should be required to have a credit card reader at the pump, and an attendant for cash payments, like gasoline pumps have now. I believe it is bullshit that I'd have to sign up for some kind of account, and install an app on my phone, to charge up my car when I have cash in my pocket to pay.
As it is now these unattended EV chargers should be considered in violation of some kind of provision in the Americans with Disabilities Act for not having an attendant to help those in wheelchairs or something. Anyone selling gasoline must have an attendant to help people if needed, how is it that public EV chargers are able to get away with not having them?
They could also slow the gasoline flow rate at the pumps, so it flows significantly slower after the first 2 gallons, like an EV.
Are you serious? That's being stupid and mean. That's not going to last a day as a law as people drive up to where the legislature is housed and just plug up the streets with cars, let their tanks run dry, and then make the congresscritters walk for miles to get to their offices because they can't park any closer. Then there has to be some fuel truck that drives up to these cars and drips fuel into the tanks so they can be driven away.
I realize that there's laws against running out of fuel on a public road but that's a traffic violation, a fine that can be mailed in most likely than having to show up for court. I expect people would gladly pay that fine to make their point.
Sure, you do that. I'd like to see how that plays out. Maybe it won't play out as I expect but I'd certainly make the suggestion to protest in such a manner.
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bynasch ( 598556 ) writes:
Unattended fuel pumps are not an ADA violation.
byMacMann ( 7518492 ) writes:
This implies otherwise:
https://archive.ada.gov/gasbri... [ada.gov]
Am I missing something? I found the above link with a minute or two of searching the web, I'm certain that there's something with more detail elsewhere.
bynasch ( 598556 ) writes:
"A service station or convenience store is not required to provide such service at any time that it is operating on a remote control basis with a single employee"
It doesn't mention the situation of zero employees specifically, but I think it's safe to assume the requirements are not more stringent.
byFortnite_Beast ( 10429778 ) writes:
It's not mean to reduce the flow rate on gasoline pumps. It helps people with the unavoidable transition to EVs. 80 years ago, offshore rigs in the Gulf of Mexico were extracting oil at 100' ocean depth. Now, they're drilling at a mile of ocean depth. In 80 years we have depleted the resource that took 100 million years to produce. It's not coming back, ever. You can argue in favor of this article. It is time for synthetic fuels. You can argue for EVs. Or you could argue that Earth is 6,000 years old and oi
bykaatochacha ( 651922 ) writes:
If you have to push your tech by purposely limiting previous tech, then your tech sucks. BTW Compact Fluorescents we were pushed SOOOOO hard to buy contain mercury,and now tons of these things are just sitting around waiting to dump that crap into the environment.
byBeaverCleaver ( 673164 ) writes:
But many buyers are stuck in the mindset of one-hour charge times, and never give BEVs a chance. Having price pressure from limits on the number of ICE cars that can be sold would encourage more of those folks to at least rent one and try it.
And lately, rental car companies have been running away from BEVs as quickly as they can. That means there are very few BEV rentals out there, so people who want to see if a BEV would work for them can't easily do so.
People are also stuck in the ICE mindset that when you "refuel" you come into the gas station with an empty take, and leave with a full tank. With a battery EV, that's no longer the case. With an ICE vehicle, if you had 60% of your tank remaining, you probably wouldn't go though the hassle of a gas station, unless you were about to start a long journey. With a BEV, if the coffee shop has chargers, there's no reason *not* to plug in, even if it's only for a few minutes. When you drive away, maybe you have 67
byshilly ( 142940 ) writes:
I rented an EV recently, unfortunately a rental is exactly the wrong use-case for an EV. If you're renting a car, you're probably traveling, so you're unlikely to be able to plug in at night.
This is one of those moments when it suddenly becomes clear that the US is just miles behind the rest of the developed world. I recently drove from London to Durham in the UK. Durham is a small university city (my kid is studying there). At least two of the hotels there have chargers (Hotel Indigo & Radisson Blu) and there are dozens of chargers all round the city centre, plus rapid chargers at every single service station en route. The latter all work with Apple Pay / Google Pay. It would be super-easy
byMacMann ( 7518492 ) writes:
The UK sits on an island that is about the size of Michigan, and with a population equal to that of California and Texas (our two most populous states) combined, so this is hardly a "fair fight" to compare driving experiences.
The longest distance someone can drive along as a direct path possible in the UK would take about two days, assuming about 7 hours per day driving. If someone were to start at the southern tip of Texas, at the Mexican border, then drive to Canada for 7 hours per day, they'd just be le
byq_e_t ( 5104099 ) writes:
The USA is bigger. Most people are driving on a subset of the roads from a place with people tons place with people. Places with electricity. Charging really shouldn't be a big deal in the USA of Norway can do it.
bysubie ( 1062756 ) writes:
This is what makes Americans laugh.
Do you have any clue just how big the US is?
byshilly ( 142940 ) writes:
Yes. I'm also clear that the vast majority of the US population lives in populated centres. It's not like you're sprinkled evenly across the entire country. The average US rental is driven 100 to 200 miles per day. The gargantuan road trip across North Dakota is just not a frequent journey. Instead, it's "fly into LAX and jump into a car and drive to Pasadena to visit family". And that's the kind of journey where using an EV ought to be straightforward.
byshilly ( 142940 ) writes:
I said Pasadena, but maybe San Diego would have been better as an example.
bynicubunu ( 242346 ) writes:
People are also stuck in the ICE mindset that when you "refuel" you come into the gas station with an empty take, and leave with a full tank.
Living in an European city, we use the car sporadically so there is no such mentality, we leave with the tank full only before a long journey. For normal city use we might just put some 20€ worth of fuel.
byBeaverCleaver ( 673164 ) writes:
People are also stuck in the ICE mindset that when you "refuel" you come into the gas station with an empty take, and leave with a full tank.
Living in an European city, we use the car sporadically so there is no such mentality, we leave with the tank full only before a long journey. For normal city use we might just put some 20€ worth of fuel.
I don't think it's just about long journeys. I don't enjoy going to petrol stations. They stink, it's boring and I would prefer to do something else with my time. So I'll wait until my tank is almost empty, then fill it all the way up, to maxmise the time before I have to go back there again. With an EV, because you can charge unattended, and the chargers are often at another place of business, that annoyance is minimised.
bymarkdavis ( 642305 ) writes:
>"And there are also probably a lot of people who automatically assume that they can't deal with BEVs when they really would be happier with them."
Listen to what you are saying. "I know better what people need than they do, so I shall impose my will on them." Yes, there are plenty of uninformed people mixed in there. So let's try to educate them instead. That is what I try to do. But I don't think we should just take their choice away because "we know better." Often "we" don't know better.
>"And
bydgatwood ( 11270 ) writes:
>"And there are also probably a lot of people who automatically assume that they can't deal with BEVs when they really would be happier with them."
Listen to what you are saying. "I know better what people need than they do, so I shall impose my will on them." Yes, there are plenty of uninformed people mixed in there. So let's try to educate them instead. That is what I try to do. But I don't think we should just take their choice away because "we know better." Often "we" don't know better.
Education helps a little, but not much. The root problem is that car dealers don't want to sell EVs, because they make less money on warranty service, oil changes, brake jobs, etc. So they do their part at "educating" consumers to avoid EVs. And that disinformation is a big part of why EVs aren't more popular. You can't fight that level of disinformation with information, because random people saying that EVs are great doesn't mean much when your dealer says you don't want one, avoids keeping any in sto
bysubie ( 1062756 ) writes:
No, the dealers know what cars sell and right now EVs aren't selling as well.
bymarkdavis ( 642305 ) writes:
>"Education helps a little, but not much."
It helps a lot, coupled with experience and trust. Both take time and have to be earned.
>"The root problem is that car dealers don't want to sell EVs, because they make less money on warranty service, oil changes, brake jobs, etc."
I think that might be part of it. But my dealer had no problem at all selling me an Ariya and didn't try to steer me away from it.
>"So they do their part at "educating" consumers to avoid EVs. And that disinformation is a big pa
bydgatwood ( 11270 ) writes:
>"The root problem is that car dealers don't want to sell EVs, because they make less money on warranty service, oil changes, brake jobs, etc."
I think that might be part of it. But my dealer had no problem at all selling me an Ariya and didn't try to steer me away from it.
To be clear, I'm not saying all dealers do this, of course, but it's really common in dealerships outside of big cities.
>"You can't fight that level of disinformation with information, because random people saying that EVs are great doesn't mean much when your dealer says you don't want one, avoids keeping any in stock for you to try, etc."
You and I are more powerful than that. We have real-world experience.
We're way less powerful. We realistically will talk to only a few people per year about our cars. A salesperson at the dealer will talk to a few dozen people per day. Maybe in aggregate, if there are enough EV drivers, we could be more powerful, but only if every EV driver is into advocacy.
>"If you thought you were renting a Tesla and ended up getting a non-Tesla BEV that couldn't be charged at superchargers, you were going to be really, really mad."
Thankfully, that, too, is changing. Tesla has opened up their chargers. My Ariya can charge at most Tesla sites. And this is expanding rapidly. I don't agree with everything Tesla does, for sure, but they seem to get a lot of things right.
Yeah, but it is still a tiny subset of superchargers [plugshare.com] unless your car has NACS or comes with an ada
bymarkdavis ( 642305 ) writes:
>"Yeah, but it is still a tiny subset of superchargers [plugshare.com] unless your car has NACS or comes with an adapter, which most existing EVs do not. So it will be several before non-Tesla EVs will be viable as rental cars outside of California and maybe the northeast."
Mine can use a NACS adapter, so I don't need a "Magic Charger" location (looks like my ENTIRE STATE doesn't even have a single one of those, which is pretty amazing). But I think it still will not work certain older Telsa chargers. N
byBranMan ( 29917 ) writes:
Not that it's hear nor there, but another headache with EVs for the rental car places is that EVs break their procedures. Some customers rent cars with full tanks and return them empty. They just do. Now what do you do with a bunch of EVs all returned with empty batteries? You can charge the customers money for refueling the cars, but that doesn't get juice back into the EV batteries. Maybe you install a few EV charging stations at the rental place - maybe you have the power available for that - but wh
bykaatochacha ( 651922 ) writes:
-"So IMO, we absolutely *need* government interference, or progress will stagnate"
Nope. Just No.
●eply beneath your current threshold.
byMspangler ( 770054 ) writes:
The third thing you southerners keep overlooking, winter. The waste heat from an ICE is very valuable in December. Battery range drops by half in the winter. If it's too cold you can't even charge the battery. If you have to keep the car plugged in all night just keep the battery warm how much energy are you really saving?
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byCyberax ( 705495 ) writes:
Battery range drops by half in the winter.
Around 25% for cars with heatpumps. A bit less if you can pre-heat the battery on the shore power. This is assuming you don't live behind the polar circle with -50C being the normal temperature.
byAmiMoJo ( 196126 ) writes:
Battery range does not drop by half in winter. It's typically around 30% at the absolute maximum - heavy rain/snow, under -20C outside, that sort of thing.
I've never seen an EV be too cold to charge, at the very worst they will charge more slowly until the battery warms up, but many will pre-heat the battery when you navigate to a charger anyway. It doesn't make any sense, the battery can always be warmed up by charging it slowly, so there is never any need to refuse to charge at all.
EVs are extremely popular in Norway, a country that is partly inside the Arctic Circle, and which regularly experiences extremely low temperatures. It's also a large country with fast roads, where it is easily possible to drive for thousands of kilometres.
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byMacMann ( 7518492 ) writes:
It really comes down to two major things when deciding if you want/need a gas option in your vehicle. First is if the range will meet some X% of your needs, and second is if you can charge adequately at home. Consumers are becoming more and more aware of their options, which is good. Even with a small PHEV battery, meaning no need for elaborate EVSEs or high-amp/high-volt circuits, it would still take something like 8 hours to charge at 120V (at your claimed typical battery size). But people in apartments, condos, or with on-street parking very, very often have no access to charge it at home..
Eight hours sounds about right, maybe a bit more. The PHEV models I've seen aren't built for rapid charging so even with L2 chargers it can still take hours to charge the small battery. They are meant to be charged overnight. So long as the driver gets enough charge for the next day's commute, and a wee bit extra just in case, it's worth plugging in. For people that don't have a means to charge overnight a PHEV can still be a good investment for the improved fuel mileage, and maybe for added features th
byAmiMoJo ( 196126 ) writes:
I guess they never had to travel with children on a long trip.
EVs are actually pretty good for that, because kids need regular stops anyway. They need to eat and drink, use the bathroom, stretch their legs. Parents need a break from Baby Shark on repeat.
There are numerous vlog style videos of people who do long trips in EVs with their kids on YouTube. One common theme is that the cars tend to charge so fast that they don't have enough time to sort the kids out before it's done.
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byGeoffrey.landis ( 926948 ) writes:
If the hybrids are plug-in hybrids, using electric to run around town, and gas to extend the range, this is nearly as good as fully electric vehicles. Most driving is pretty short distances, and so you only need a pretty small battery.
I can certainly agree, and I'm amazed more people don't make that realization. There's some "purists" that can't comprehend why someone would want or need anything but a BEV. I guess they never had to travel with children on a long trip. The kids want to get home so they can eat, play, nap, or do anything than be strapped to a seat. The shorter the stops the better. Pull up to the pump, Mom takes the kids to the restrooms, Dad pumps the fuel, strap the kids back in, and off you go again. If the kids stop for too long then it's all that harder to get them back in their seats, and also further delays to eating/playing/whatever at home.
To the contrary, travelling with kids you make a lot of stops. Yes, if you're the kind of laser-focused dad that tells the kids "we're not stopping for anything, if you gotta go you are going to hold it until we stop for gas" yes, you can train your kids to have that super destination focus too, but that's you training your kids to expect that. Your kids will actually be happier about trips if they stop more often.
By the way, on long trips if you really want to do a speed run, the optimum way to charge the
byZ00L00K ( 682162 ) writes:
I agree, it will be the best of both worlds, especially since the charging infrastructure still is quite insufficient in some areas as well as it sometimes incur some outrageous costs due to some companies having excessive fees in some places.
byq_e_t ( 5104099 ) writes:
Or, in terms of maintenance, the worst of both worlds as you have two systems.
byfodder69 ( 701416 ) writes:
Right?
byq_e_t ( 5104099 ) writes:
To be fair, the ICE in a Prius is probably under less strain so might do better, but it still has an exhaust (which seem to be prone to rotting and falling off in my experience) and so on to go wrong.
byLuckyo ( 1726890 ) writes:
Two reasons:
1. Battery size increases dramatically, requiring redesign of the entire chassis to fit it. Normal hybrid batteries are around 1kWh, and as a result can fit under rear seat with minimal modifications. Plug-in hybrids realistically start at around ten times that, and that means redesign to fit it.
2. MGs must be much more powerful. Specifically MG2 (if you're going with original hybrid patent naming pattern) must be significantly more powerful, as that's the one that is responsible for driving the
byq_e_t ( 5104099 ) writes:
RAV4 has 18.1kWh not 1kWh. Old Prius 1kWh. Latest Prius Prime: 8.8kWh or 13.6kWh. 1kWh is in the past.
byLuckyo ( 1726890 ) writes:
"Old" or more accurately "current and old" or most accurately hybrid is around that. RAV4 is still most sold as a hybrid, not plug-in hybrid which is significantly more expensive.
You appear to not know the difference between hybrid electric vehicle (HEV) and plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV). Those are two different categories of vehicles, with latter being significantly more expensive.
byq_e_t ( 5104099 ) writes:
You appear to not know the difference between hybrid electric vehicle (HEV) and plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV).
No, I do understand the difference. I was going by Toyota's own information on the RAV4, though.
byLuckyo ( 1726890 ) writes:
Marketing wank is there to upsell you the top model.
Most sold model will not be top model, though in US this is often forgotten because of how relatively wealthy it is compared to the rest of the world.
byq_e_t ( 5104099 ) writes:
I see I was in error. If you Google RAV4 Hybrid it brings up information mostly for the PHEV and doesn't necessarily distinguish it from the HEV. Apologies. There actually seem to be a number of different HEV battery options, some with quite low capacity.
byLuckyo ( 1726890 ) writes:
It essentially scales with ICE engine power (read: entire power pack). For example modern Corollas generally come in two main variants: 1,8L ancient, fairly low power but hilariously reliable engine and more modern significantly more powerful but slightly less reliable 2,0L.
Former comes with battery that is about 0,7-0,8kWh. Latter comes with about 1,5-1,6kWh. Total MG (1+2) output of first variant is about 2/3 of the latter (fifty-something kW for former and eighty kW for latter last I checked).
byGeoffrey.landis ( 926948 ) writes:
Two reasons:
1. Battery size increases dramatically, requiring redesign of the entire chassis to fit it.
Fully battery electric vehicles exist, and batteries fit in them. Plug in hybrids have small batteries compared to these. It's clearly a solvable problem.
In fact, it's a solved problem, since the Prius Prime ("plug-in Prius") exists, and has the same form as the ordinary Prius.
2. MGs must be much more powerful.
Yes, like a battery electric vehicle. It's also a solved problem.
byLuckyo ( 1726890 ) writes:
1. Prius Prime came with a redesign. Essentially Toyota redesigned the car, and one of the major changes in addition to new look is that trunk bottom could be lifted up to fit much larger battery for PHEV variant. Before that, this wasn't possible.
Same thing happened a couple of years later with CH-R. Redesign, car gets a completely new look, and one of the new design changes is a possibility to dedicate some of the trunk space to extend the battery.
So no, you cannot just grab an old HEV and slap a bigger b
byGeoffrey.landis ( 926948 ) writes:
1. Prius Prime came with a redesign.
Yeah, so? Cars get redesigned. This is not anything new.
It would be surprising if cars didn't get redesigned.
byLuckyo ( 1726890 ) writes:
I feel that I need to remind you that your question was, and I quote:
>If they're not... well, why not? Hybrids have electric trains and batteries already, why not go the rest of the way to a plug-in hybrid?
I explained the reasons above. The only way the comment above makes any sense in this context is if you believe that industrial redesign at that scale is free or so cheap it's irrelevant. It's obviously not. It's a very expensive and time consuming process.
byGeoffrey.landis ( 926948 ) writes:
And I repeat. Cars are redesigned all the time.
This is not a big deal.
byLuckyo ( 1726890 ) writes:
Let's see if this argument works for other things.
Murdering people isn't a big deal. People die ALL THE TIME.
Increasing taxes isn't a big deal. Taxes get raised ALL THE TIME.
Holy shit, this is a perfect argument!
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bybsdetector101 ( 6345122 ) writes:
My son got lucky about a year ago when a Toyota RAV4 became available and he's leasing it. BUT twice, it didn't want to start like it was fully dead. Toyota mechanics NEVER figured out what was causing it. Otherwise great hybrid.
byDirkDaring ( 91233 ) writes:
I bought a Rav4 Hybrid a month ago. Had to put $2k down on it, it was on it's way from the factory to the dealer. Every other Rav4 Hybrid they had was marked under contract still awaiting to be built. We were told got very lucky one was open.
bykaatochacha ( 651922 ) writes:
Screw Toytota. I just bought a hybrid last month. Search went like this:
Mazda: we've got a monster SUV hybrid that gets 38 MPG, otherwise none.
Me: Nope.
Toyota: (guy at door before even entering the showroom) We have had inventory problems since COVID, and if you want to drive a hybrid you'll have to buy and reserve one, wait until it arrives, then drive it.
Me: Wait... I can't even test drive one?
Toyota ( smugly ) no.
Me. Can't drive, can't by. Nope.
Honda: Yeah, we've got hybrids out here, wanna drive one?
Me:
byfropenn ( 1116699 ) writes:
they told us 1-2 years wait for delivery
Shop around at other dealers. It seems there are plenty of hybrid RAV4s sitting on lots. I suspect it is just a strategy to take and hold your money. https://www.chicagotoyota.com/... [chicagotoyota.com]
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