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The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
by0xG ( 712423 ) writes:
We put down a fully refundable deposit, but they told us 1-2 years wait for delivery.
That was for a RAV4 or Highlander.
byGeoffrey.landis ( 926948 ) writes:
If the hybrids are plug-in hybrids, using electric to run around town, and gas to extend the range, this is nearly as good as fully electric vehicles. Most driving is pretty short distances, and so you only need a pretty small battery.
If they're not... well, why not? Hybrids have electric trains and batteries already, why not go the rest of the way to a plug-in hybrid?
byMacMann ( 7518492 ) writes:
If the hybrids are plug-in hybrids, using electric to run around town, and gas to extend the range, this is nearly as good as fully electric vehicles. Most driving is pretty short distances, and so you only need a pretty small battery.
I can certainly agree, and I'm amazed more people don't make that realization. There's some "purists" that can't comprehend why someone would want or need anything but a BEV. I guess they never had to travel with children on a long trip. The kids want to get home so they can eat, play, nap, or do anything than be strapped to a seat. The shorter the stops the better. Pull up to the pump, Mom takes the kids to the restrooms, Dad pumps the fuel, strap the kids back in, and off you go again. If the kids s
bymarkdavis ( 642305 ) writes:
>"There's some "purists" that can't comprehend why someone would want or need anything but a BEV. I guess they never had to travel with children on a long trip."
There are people blinded to others' positions everywhere, all the time. It is rather frustrating and education is key.
It really comes down to two major things when deciding if you want/need a gas option in your vehicle. First is if the range will meet some X% of your needs, and second is if you can charge adequately at home. Consumers are becoming more and more aware of their options, which is good. Even with a small PHEV battery, meaning no need for elaborate EVSEs or high-amp/high-volt circuits, it would still take something like 8 hours to charge at 120V (at your claimed typical battery size). But people in apartments, condos, or with on-street parking very, very often have no access to charge it at home..
I just bought an EV (BEV). Wouldn't even consider a HEV or PHEV. I don't want to pay for or deal with the complexity and expense of both an ICE and EV in one package. But in my case, perhaps 100% of my use is met with current electric ranges, and I have the ability to charge at home. And there is always the option of fast DC charging at ever-more locations for that (in my case) extremely rare case of needing more range. If I had to restrain my regular/typical driving due to range, or had to rely regularly on fast DC charging stations (or the vehicle pricing were still crazy, which it suddenly isn't), I would have bought another ICE-only vehicle.
I know others have different needs and will make their decisions accordingly. Which is why I am vehemently opposed to "bans" and government interference in consumer choice in this matter. Eventually, all vehicles will be EV. I think we all know that by now. It is the future- quiet, powerful, convenient, easier and less expensive to maintain, no local emissions, etc. It is just a matter of when. Trying to force everyone's hands makes prices higher, consumer choice lower, and tons of resentment. It also doesn't give consumers or manufacturers time to adjust or to build supporting infrastructure. A vibrant market will have lots of choices of ICE, BEV, HV, HEV, PHEV.
>"an automaker were to simply put a plug on their existing HEV models then that's like 5 miles on all electric power."
Which (as you said) also means adding a charger and all the electronics to ensure charging safety. That costs money, time, testing, takes space, and also adds to weight (although it would be small, so not on the same level as a BEV charger). I agree, it sounds like a good idea. Especially if it is an addon option. But it isn't like there are no downsides. And 5 miles of range is not likely to motivate users to go through the cost or effort of plugging and unplugging it every time. Maybe 20 or 30? Hard to say.
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bydgatwood ( 11270 ) writes:
I know others have different needs and will make their decisions accordingly. Which is why I am vehemently opposed to "bans" and government interference in consumer choice in this matter.
This part, I disagree with. While I'm not in favor of an outright ban, I am strongly in favor of government interference.
The fact is that there are a lot of people for whom the extra cost makes them choose a hybrid when a BEV would also work. Government subsidies can encourage them to buy the BEV instead, and more importantly, can encourage them to replace them on a faster cadence, which increases availability of used BEVs that can be sold to people who can't afford new ones.
And there are also probably a
bymagzteel ( 5013587 ) writes:
So IMO, we absolutely *need* government interference, or progress will stagnate.
Oh for sure, just like when government interfered to induce people to buy smartphones instead of flip phones. Even though we could all agree that smart phones were the future without government policies smart phones would be struggling to catch on.
byBeaverCleaver ( 673164 ) writes:
Oh for sure, just like when government interfered to induce people to buy smartphones instead of flip phones. Even though we could all agree that smart phones were the future without government policies smart phones would be struggling to catch on.
Smartphones were pushed on the consumer by selling phone contracts that gave the phone away for "free." They also gave the manufacturers the opportunity to skimp on development and testing and push the fixes out later by over-the-air updates. Finally, a touchscreen is cheaper than a proper keypad (especially a full QWERTY)
Whereas BEVs are more expensive to make (at least for now, until the cost of new tooling is amortized) and the manufacturers can't claw back as much money from "warranty service."
So in sum
byFortnite_Beast ( 10429778 ) writes:
The government could fix this by requiring gasoline vendors to use the same apps as EV charging networks. This would help address people's unfamiliarity with the charging process. They could also slow the gasoline flow rate at the pumps, so it flows significantly slower after the first 2 gallons, like an EV.
byMacMann ( 7518492 ) writes:
The government could fix this by requiring gasoline vendors to use the same apps as EV charging networks. This would help address people's unfamiliarity with the charging process.
Or... hear me out as this is a pretty wild idea... maybe the EV chargers should be required to have a credit card reader at the pump, and an attendant for cash payments, like gasoline pumps have now. I believe it is bullshit that I'd have to sign up for some kind of account, and install an app on my phone, to charge up my car when I have cash in my pocket to pay.
As it is now these unattended EV chargers should be considered in violation of some kind of provision in the Americans with Disabilities Act for not having an attendant to help those in wheelchairs or something. Anyone selling gasoline must have an attendant to help people if needed, how is it that public EV chargers are able to get away with not having them?
They could also slow the gasoline flow rate at the pumps, so it flows significantly slower after the first 2 gallons, like an EV.
Are you serious? That's being stupid and mean. That's not going to last a day as a law as people drive up to where the legislature is housed and just plug up the streets with cars, let their tanks run dry, and then make the congresscritters walk for miles to get to their offices because they can't park any closer. Then there has to be some fuel truck that drives up to these cars and drips fuel into the tanks so they can be driven away.
I realize that there's laws against running out of fuel on a public road but that's a traffic violation, a fine that can be mailed in most likely than having to show up for court. I expect people would gladly pay that fine to make their point.
Sure, you do that. I'd like to see how that plays out. Maybe it won't play out as I expect but I'd certainly make the suggestion to protest in such a manner.
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bynasch ( 598556 ) writes:
Unattended fuel pumps are not an ADA violation.
byMacMann ( 7518492 ) writes:
This implies otherwise:
https://archive.ada.gov/gasbri... [ada.gov]
Am I missing something? I found the above link with a minute or two of searching the web, I'm certain that there's something with more detail elsewhere.
bynasch ( 598556 ) writes:
"A service station or convenience store is not required to provide such service at any time that it is operating on a remote control basis with a single employee"
It doesn't mention the situation of zero employees specifically, but I think it's safe to assume the requirements are not more stringent.
byFortnite_Beast ( 10429778 ) writes:
It's not mean to reduce the flow rate on gasoline pumps. It helps people with the unavoidable transition to EVs. 80 years ago, offshore rigs in the Gulf of Mexico were extracting oil at 100' ocean depth. Now, they're drilling at a mile of ocean depth. In 80 years we have depleted the resource that took 100 million years to produce. It's not coming back, ever. You can argue in favor of this article. It is time for synthetic fuels. You can argue for EVs. Or you could argue that Earth is 6,000 years old and oi
bykaatochacha ( 651922 ) writes:
If you have to push your tech by purposely limiting previous tech, then your tech sucks. BTW Compact Fluorescents we were pushed SOOOOO hard to buy contain mercury,and now tons of these things are just sitting around waiting to dump that crap into the environment.
byBeaverCleaver ( 673164 ) writes:
But many buyers are stuck in the mindset of one-hour charge times, and never give BEVs a chance. Having price pressure from limits on the number of ICE cars that can be sold would encourage more of those folks to at least rent one and try it.
And lately, rental car companies have been running away from BEVs as quickly as they can. That means there are very few BEV rentals out there, so people who want to see if a BEV would work for them can't easily do so.
People are also stuck in the ICE mindset that when you "refuel" you come into the gas station with an empty take, and leave with a full tank. With a battery EV, that's no longer the case. With an ICE vehicle, if you had 60% of your tank remaining, you probably wouldn't go though the hassle of a gas station, unless you were about to start a long journey. With a BEV, if the coffee shop has chargers, there's no reason *not* to plug in, even if it's only for a few minutes. When you drive away, maybe you have 67
byshilly ( 142940 ) writes:
I rented an EV recently, unfortunately a rental is exactly the wrong use-case for an EV. If you're renting a car, you're probably traveling, so you're unlikely to be able to plug in at night.
This is one of those moments when it suddenly becomes clear that the US is just miles behind the rest of the developed world. I recently drove from London to Durham in the UK. Durham is a small university city (my kid is studying there). At least two of the hotels there have chargers (Hotel Indigo & Radisson Blu) and there are dozens of chargers all round the city centre, plus rapid chargers at every single service station en route. The latter all work with Apple Pay / Google Pay. It would be super-easy
byMacMann ( 7518492 ) writes:
The UK sits on an island that is about the size of Michigan, and with a population equal to that of California and Texas (our two most populous states) combined, so this is hardly a "fair fight" to compare driving experiences.
The longest distance someone can drive along as a direct path possible in the UK would take about two days, assuming about 7 hours per day driving. If someone were to start at the southern tip of Texas, at the Mexican border, then drive to Canada for 7 hours per day, they'd just be le
byq_e_t ( 5104099 ) writes:
The USA is bigger. Most people are driving on a subset of the roads from a place with people tons place with people. Places with electricity. Charging really shouldn't be a big deal in the USA of Norway can do it.
bysubie ( 1062756 ) writes:
This is what makes Americans laugh.
Do you have any clue just how big the US is?
byshilly ( 142940 ) writes:
Yes. I'm also clear that the vast majority of the US population lives in populated centres. It's not like you're sprinkled evenly across the entire country. The average US rental is driven 100 to 200 miles per day. The gargantuan road trip across North Dakota is just not a frequent journey. Instead, it's "fly into LAX and jump into a car and drive to Pasadena to visit family". And that's the kind of journey where using an EV ought to be straightforward.
byshilly ( 142940 ) writes:
I said Pasadena, but maybe San Diego would have been better as an example.
bynicubunu ( 242346 ) writes:
People are also stuck in the ICE mindset that when you "refuel" you come into the gas station with an empty take, and leave with a full tank.
Living in an European city, we use the car sporadically so there is no such mentality, we leave with the tank full only before a long journey. For normal city use we might just put some 20€ worth of fuel.
byBeaverCleaver ( 673164 ) writes:
People are also stuck in the ICE mindset that when you "refuel" you come into the gas station with an empty take, and leave with a full tank.
Living in an European city, we use the car sporadically so there is no such mentality, we leave with the tank full only before a long journey. For normal city use we might just put some 20€ worth of fuel.
I don't think it's just about long journeys. I don't enjoy going to petrol stations. They stink, it's boring and I would prefer to do something else with my time. So I'll wait until my tank is almost empty, then fill it all the way up, to maxmise the time before I have to go back there again. With an EV, because you can charge unattended, and the chargers are often at another place of business, that annoyance is minimised.
bymarkdavis ( 642305 ) writes:
>"And there are also probably a lot of people who automatically assume that they can't deal with BEVs when they really would be happier with them."
Listen to what you are saying. "I know better what people need than they do, so I shall impose my will on them." Yes, there are plenty of uninformed people mixed in there. So let's try to educate them instead. That is what I try to do. But I don't think we should just take their choice away because "we know better." Often "we" don't know better.
>"And
bydgatwood ( 11270 ) writes:
>"And there are also probably a lot of people who automatically assume that they can't deal with BEVs when they really would be happier with them."
Listen to what you are saying. "I know better what people need than they do, so I shall impose my will on them." Yes, there are plenty of uninformed people mixed in there. So let's try to educate them instead. That is what I try to do. But I don't think we should just take their choice away because "we know better." Often "we" don't know better.
Education helps a little, but not much. The root problem is that car dealers don't want to sell EVs, because they make less money on warranty service, oil changes, brake jobs, etc. So they do their part at "educating" consumers to avoid EVs. And that disinformation is a big part of why EVs aren't more popular. You can't fight that level of disinformation with information, because random people saying that EVs are great doesn't mean much when your dealer says you don't want one, avoids keeping any in sto
bysubie ( 1062756 ) writes:
No, the dealers know what cars sell and right now EVs aren't selling as well.
bymarkdavis ( 642305 ) writes:
>"Education helps a little, but not much."
It helps a lot, coupled with experience and trust. Both take time and have to be earned.
>"The root problem is that car dealers don't want to sell EVs, because they make less money on warranty service, oil changes, brake jobs, etc."
I think that might be part of it. But my dealer had no problem at all selling me an Ariya and didn't try to steer me away from it.
>"So they do their part at "educating" consumers to avoid EVs. And that disinformation is a big pa
bydgatwood ( 11270 ) writes:
>"The root problem is that car dealers don't want to sell EVs, because they make less money on warranty service, oil changes, brake jobs, etc."
I think that might be part of it. But my dealer had no problem at all selling me an Ariya and didn't try to steer me away from it.
To be clear, I'm not saying all dealers do this, of course, but it's really common in dealerships outside of big cities.
>"You can't fight that level of disinformation with information, because random people saying that EVs are great doesn't mean much when your dealer says you don't want one, avoids keeping any in stock for you to try, etc."
You and I are more powerful than that. We have real-world experience.
We're way less powerful. We realistically will talk to only a few people per year about our cars. A salesperson at the dealer will talk to a few dozen people per day. Maybe in aggregate, if there are enough EV drivers, we could be more powerful, but only if every EV driver is into advocacy.
>"If you thought you were renting a Tesla and ended up getting a non-Tesla BEV that couldn't be charged at superchargers, you were going to be really, really mad."
Thankfully, that, too, is changing. Tesla has opened up their chargers. My Ariya can charge at most Tesla sites. And this is expanding rapidly. I don't agree with everything Tesla does, for sure, but they seem to get a lot of things right.
Yeah, but it is still a tiny subset of superchargers [plugshare.com] unless your car has NACS or comes with an ada
bymarkdavis ( 642305 ) writes:
>"Yeah, but it is still a tiny subset of superchargers [plugshare.com] unless your car has NACS or comes with an adapter, which most existing EVs do not. So it will be several before non-Tesla EVs will be viable as rental cars outside of California and maybe the northeast."
Mine can use a NACS adapter, so I don't need a "Magic Charger" location (looks like my ENTIRE STATE doesn't even have a single one of those, which is pretty amazing). But I think it still will not work certain older Telsa chargers. N
byBranMan ( 29917 ) writes:
Not that it's hear nor there, but another headache with EVs for the rental car places is that EVs break their procedures. Some customers rent cars with full tanks and return them empty. They just do. Now what do you do with a bunch of EVs all returned with empty batteries? You can charge the customers money for refueling the cars, but that doesn't get juice back into the EV batteries. Maybe you install a few EV charging stations at the rental place - maybe you have the power available for that - but wh
bykaatochacha ( 651922 ) writes:
-"So IMO, we absolutely *need* government interference, or progress will stagnate"
Nope. Just No.
●th your current threshold.
byMspangler ( 770054 ) writes:
The third thing you southerners keep overlooking, winter. The waste heat from an ICE is very valuable in December. Battery range drops by half in the winter. If it's too cold you can't even charge the battery. If you have to keep the car plugged in all night just keep the battery warm how much energy are you really saving?
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byCyberax ( 705495 ) writes:
Battery range drops by half in the winter.
Around 25% for cars with heatpumps. A bit less if you can pre-heat the battery on the shore power. This is assuming you don't live behind the polar circle with -50C being the normal temperature.
byAmiMoJo ( 196126 ) writes:
Battery range does not drop by half in winter. It's typically around 30% at the absolute maximum - heavy rain/snow, under -20C outside, that sort of thing.
I've never seen an EV be too cold to charge, at the very worst they will charge more slowly until the battery warms up, but many will pre-heat the battery when you navigate to a charger anyway. It doesn't make any sense, the battery can always be warmed up by charging it slowly, so there is never any need to refuse to charge at all.
EVs are extremely popular in Norway, a country that is partly inside the Arctic Circle, and which regularly experiences extremely low temperatures. It's also a large country with fast roads, where it is easily possible to drive for thousands of kilometres.
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byMacMann ( 7518492 ) writes:
It really comes down to two major things when deciding if you want/need a gas option in your vehicle. First is if the range will meet some X% of your needs, and second is if you can charge adequately at home. Consumers are becoming more and more aware of their options, which is good. Even with a small PHEV battery, meaning no need for elaborate EVSEs or high-amp/high-volt circuits, it would still take something like 8 hours to charge at 120V (at your claimed typical battery size). But people in apartments, condos, or with on-street parking very, very often have no access to charge it at home..
Eight hours sounds about right, maybe a bit more. The PHEV models I've seen aren't built for rapid charging so even with L2 chargers it can still take hours to charge the small battery. They are meant to be charged overnight. So long as the driver gets enough charge for the next day's commute, and a wee bit extra just in case, it's worth plugging in. For people that don't have a means to charge overnight a PHEV can still be a good investment for the improved fuel mileage, and maybe for added features th
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