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Latest comment: 12 years ago4 comments4 people in discussion
An image used in this article, File:Kim-Jong-un-006.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests October 2011
What should I do?
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use)
If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used.
It was rather foolish to delete this image! It would be quite necessary now that Kim Jong-un is very likely to succeed his late father. Does anyone have another image that could be used? --Krawunsel (talk) 09:35, 19 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
Due to the rarity of images, a fair use exemption could perhaps be claimed on one of the few available pictures. The image when he was 11 years old is commented on in the text, so it'd comply. Will Bebacktalk09:42, 19 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
I agree with leaving the photo in place as is. It provides a necessary factual piece of documentation that supports the article and I believe it's fair use.Ssybesma (talk) 19:44, 19 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 12 years ago21 comments6 people in discussion
I agree with Will Beback, this seems to fall under a fair use exemption, though the size should probably be reduced by about half to mung the commercial useage potential. SaltyBoatr get wet17:42, 19 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
Given that Kim Jong-un is alive, and the fact he is now apparently the supreme leader of North Korea, a free image of him can be obtained. We do not have to have a non-free image of him. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:35, 19 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
I am not sure I follow Hammersoft's logic. Plainly, photos of this person are extremely rare; hence it fair to conclude they are extremely difficult. I don't believe the impossible is the correct standard to apply. Extremely difficult is a better standard, and plainly this photo is extremely difficult to replace with a free image. SaltyBoatr get wet21:55, 19 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
Why is it plain? Look, the Foundation has set a rigorous standard in regards to non-free images of living people. See for yourself; read #3 of Foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy, where it says "An EDP may not allow material where we can reasonably expect someone to upload a freely licensed file for the same purpose, such as is the case for almost all portraits of living notable individuals." I have seen exceptions for people who are incarcerated for life. I have see exceptions for people who are famed (as supported by secondary sources) recluses. This is not such a case. This man is the leader of one of the nations of the world. As such, he will have many interactions with leaders of many other countries of the world. There will be plenty, plenty of opportunities for people to photograph him. Pumping in his father's name into Google images returns more then three million hits. Do you honestly believe his son isn't going to be photographed? The same search for his son returns more than 600k results. It's not like he's a hermit, in jail, on the run from the law, etc. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:08, 19 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
Well, your there will be plenty' hypothetical might prove true someday, and might not. Your posing a hypothetical seen only in your imagination doesn't advance this discussion much. The hard reality today is that this person has proven nearly impossible to photograph. For that reason, it seems very reasonable to conclude that this person fits within the exception to the "cases for almost all" outlined in the Foundation Licensing policy you point to. Kim Jong-un is clearly at the very far extreme of photographer inaccessible people, hence would be in accordance with policy here as an extreme exception. SaltyBoatr get wet16:10, 20 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
If he's so far in the extreme of photographically inaccessible people, why are there thousands of images of him available on the web? There is no wiggle room on this. The image used on this article to depict this BLP must be free. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:29, 20 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
The original source of the photos is the Korean Central News Agency. Reuters etc simply re-use them and they can because a) KCNA is a government body and b) North Korea is not a signatory to any copyright conventions, so I don't see the problem with using this image. Vale of Glamorgan (talk) 15:31, 20 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
That would be great if...if...the source were verifiable. As is, the source indicated does not appear to have the image (and it's a Japanese source, no less). --Hammersoft (talk) 15:44, 20 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
The point is, however, that free images of North Korean politicians are incredibly hard to come by. Therefore I think it is all right to keep the image under the fair rationale policy. Another image of Kim Jong-un was already deleted and I really hope it doesn't happen to this image too. --Krawunsel (talk) 11:17, 21 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
This is false. As I demonstrated previously, there's millions of hits returned for images for his father. There's hundreds of thousands for him. Kim Jong-un met with a number of foreign diplomats today. Such occasions are photo opportunities. Indeed, he was even photographed in public just this past Monday. See for yourself. Then he was on AP video yesterday [1]. Boy, sure is hard to get him on camera, isn't it? --Hammersoft (talk) 14:24, 21 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
Well, if you wish to prove your point, Mr. Know-it-all, find us an image with no copyright for this page!! As long as you don't my opinion stands - free images of North Korean politicians are hard to come by and your argument is sophistic. And I'm quite sorry to see that the above image has been deleted as well. We should indeed take it a bit easier. --93.204.112.139 (talk) 09:04, 22 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for taking credit. I now direct you to WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL. There is no need to describe me as "Mr. Know-it-all". As to your points, there is no requirement to find a free license image in order to remove a non-free image. WP:NFCC #1 is clear on this; "or could be created". One can be created. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:25, 22 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
You're besides the point! I never said we have to find a free one IN ORDER to remove a non free one. We're discussing how to get an image for this article, if you've forgotten! This article needs an image and since non-free ones keep being deleted despite the possibility of the fair use rationale. Thus, since we have NO image for this article and non-free ones keep being deleted we need to find a free one. And since you pointed out that finding a license-free image of Kim Jong-un is ever so easy, I asked you to find one or create one to prove your point. But you don't seem to be willing. Ah, create one... I think Mr Kim will be so happy when you ring at his door bell and will gladly pose for a number of pictures for you! As for being called a know-it-all, try not to behave like one and you will not be called one! ;) --Krawunsel (talk) 11:16, 23 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
I don't have to create one to prove any point. The reality is that it IS possible to create a free one. I proved that with the above Google link. If that's not satisfactory for you, I'm sorry, but there won't be any more proof provided to you. I never said it was "ever so easy". I said it can be done, and I proved that. Your smiley faces aside, if you continue to use personal insults you can expect a negative outcome for your efforts. --Hammersoft (talk) 03:48, 24 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
Hammersoft is entirely correct. Unless we can PROVE that any particular current is copyright free, we cannot use an image simply because a)we want one and b)we can find one. The world doesnt owe us an image of him. And, since he is alive and a public figure, photographers will have many chances, probably any day now, to photograph him. However, if all the photographers choose to maintain copyright, we still wont get a photo. In the meantime, the article will have to limp on without an image of the leader of one of the largest standing armies on earth. Thats the reality of creating a creative commons licensed website. I hope we can get a supportive photographer at a korean political event to send us an image. Maybe someone can write Jong-un and ask for a copyright free photo. seriously, why not? he is free to contribute to WP, isnt he?Mercurywoodrose (talk) 06:52, 24 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
Requesting article be Semi-Protected
Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Latest comment: 12 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Another unconfirmed photograph surfaced in 2011 of Kim Jong-un at a party. It was a grainy, profile view released online by a news outlet. (My reasons for adding this are because I can't find the article anymore and I think it shows another important fact about Kim Jong-un he was western educated and has nuclear power.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nvanparys (talk • contribs) 01:07, 21 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
The infobox needs to be updated. Not sure how, since his new position is not yet clear, but he is obviously not still serving under the leadership of Kim Jong-il (unless Jong-il is named "eternal supreme leader" or something). Tad Lincoln (talk) 14:40, 21 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
Supreme Leader
Latest comment: 12 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion
Despite my revision (17:46, 22 December 2011) was modified by User:Maxim (18:31, 22 December 2011), I think it should be appropriate to list Kim Jong-un as the current supreme leader of North Korea. He is officially lauded as Kim Jong-il's successor and has been seen at the head of NK's senior leaders during their homage to KJI's bier. Moreover, KJI article's infobox already indicates KJU as the next supreme leader. If anything should happen depriving KJU of that title, it would be sufficient to modify accordingly. Greetings. --FedeloKomma (talk) 12:16, 23 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
I removed it from this article because it is not entirely certain whether if he is the Supreme Leader. There has been considerable speculation as to the role of his uncle, Jang Sung-taek, or the military. Kim Jong-un does not hold any office that makes him de-jure supreme leader (Kim Jong-il was chairman of the National Defence Commission). In terms of de-facto power, there are suggestions that he is a figurehead. Unless something definitive emerges, I don't believe it is appropriate for us to speculate as to whether he is the Supreme Leader. (PS: For the Kim Jong-il article, ideally I would've removed it, but I must have missed the addition). Maxim(talk)23:25, 23 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
I see your point. Nevertheless, in the wake of the vacancies of the post of General Secretary, Kim Jong-un could be seen as the actual party top leader in the capacity of vice-chairman of the Central Military Commission, whose chairman is also general secretary according to the provisions of the WPK Rules, not to mention the praises as great successor and outstanding leader. Anyway, let's see what happens next. --FedeloKomma (talk) 09:43, 24 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
Addendum: It makes a lot of sense for Kim Jong-un to succeed Kim Jong-il today. The North Korean government is particularly fond of round numbers and here, he succeeds his father after exactly 20 years. Maxim(talk)16:22, 24 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
Are we sure about that? I agree about the importance of numbers and dates in the North Korean regime, but it could simply be an honorific term given to Kim Jong-un for the 20th anniversary of his father's supreme-commandership, indicating the continuity of the Kim dynasty, rather than an official appointment, that would require an official decree from the Supreme People's Assembly or other power organs. Moreover, according to the 2008 DPRK Constitution, the Chairman of the National Defence Commission is the Supreme Commander, though this provision could be departed from just as Kim Il-sung did when he first appointed Kim Jong-il supreme commander.--FedeloKomma (talk) 16:31, 24 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
He seems to be at least de-facto supreme commander, as he has given orders that were fulfilled (e.g. [2]), when his office at the time apparently didn't have de-jure authority to do so. I've been fairly careful before in terms of adding titles or claims of succession, but at this point, I think it's valid to update this article, and others related to it, to call him Supreme Commander. Maxim(talk)17:01, 24 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
I agree he is at least de facto supreme commander, mainly because he is the first-ranking vice-chairman of the Central Military Commission in a moment when both the commission chairman and the actual supreme commander are absent. My only doubt concerned the actual date of his appointment: the infobox indicates 24 December, but we may have to change it if the DPRK power organs officially appoint him supreme commander and/or NDC chairman in another occasion.--FedeloKomma (talk) 11:04, 25 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
That's how the system works there. The mouthpiece "urges" Kim to accept the position, and so he is "co-opted" by the "will of the people". Out of all the titles he has been claimed to have, this one he seems to definitely have, both de-facto and de-jure, with no comment as to if he's a figurehead. Maxim(talk)21:26, 27 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
Picture
Latest comment: 12 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion
No wonder Wikipedia has been losing editors for years. Strict bureaucratic rules and an emphasis on policing over contribution. It would be nice if there was a rule saying that nobody could remove a piece of a fair use media unless they personally can find a free one to replace it, rather than just saying "it must exist somewhere". Not that it will ever happen. I'm probably breaking some WP:POLICY just by typing this out. Esn (talk) 19:42, 29 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
The Switzerland years
Latest comment: 12 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion
There are plenty of news stories easily searchable about Kim Jong-un's studies in Switzerland and his classmates' characterizations. I'm not familiar with BLP standards, but many of them seem to be from reasonably reliable secondary news sources. E.g. this al-Jezeera video, [3], and [4]. Given that these sources include reports from personal friends and all seem to corroborate each other, what do people feel about including some more detail? If so, which details are best to include? Selery (talk) 00:29, 26 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
I'm not sure any more detail is needed, because the article my be skewed towards his early life too much. At any rate, no one of the sources you have are reliable. Al-Jazeera has considerable bias problems; the Daily Mirror is a tabloid; the Daily Mail doesn't check their facts. Maxim(talk)21:23, 27 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 12 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion
I think it's too hasty to indicate Kim Jong-un as General Secretary. He has been declared to be "leader" of the Central Committee, a position that do not require the holder being the General Secretary (Kim Jong-il himself ruled the WPK from 1994 to 1997 before assuming that title). Therefore, I suggest to delete last revisions declaring Kim Jong-un the WPK General Secretary. --FedeloKomma (talk) 20:28, 26 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
We have a statement in the article, " According to the Party Rules, the head of the Central Military Commission doubles as the party's general secretary." to which I've added a [citation needed] tag. Other editors might want to do something stronger, but as a practical matter I think it's very unlikely that it isn't essentially true even if not entirely formally true. On the other hand, there are questions about power sharing with his uncle, so I'll leave that for others to think through. Selery (talk) 10:30, 27 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
The NYT seems to be the only one to be reporting that; it is at odds with both the mouthpiece and tradition. I felt sufficient doubt to remove all of the recent titles, except Supreme Military Commander, and Chairman. Maxim(talk)21:29, 27 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 12 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
What titles/offices can we definitely include in the article? I see a list of three right now:
Vice-Chairman of the Central Military Commission—no brainer.
Supreme Commander of the Korean People's Army—backed up by sources; appointment coincides with what would have been Kim Jong-il's 20th anniversary in the role.
Supreme Leader of North Korea—regardless of whether it's de-facto, de-jure, or a figurehead role, it seems that he's been named that both externally and internally (cf. Kim Yong-nam's speech) so it would make sense to include it. The only question is when we say it started; the article present says 28 December; however, I think that it might make sense to put it to December 17 as per the precedent for Kim Jong-il in 1994.
As for the other positions, I'm confident that he has not been formally appointed to them (e.g. General Secretary or Chairman of the CMC). Maxim(talk)16:30, 29 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 12 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
North Koreans do not use hyphens in their names. That is a recent South Korean trend. None of the names of North Koreans on this page should be hyphenated. The Romanization should be as a North Korean would Romanize, and the hyphen should be omitted a a North Korean would omit. The habitual presentation of North Korean names in the South Korean format is rather amateurish and certainly not encyclopedic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.220.193.142 (talk) 20:41, 29 December 2011 (UTC)Reply
