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::https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctvp2n341<br>
::https://minerva-access.unimelb.edu.au/items/e0b36c1b-bc50-439b-8230-25332e98f38b [[User:Sheherherhers|Sheherherhers]] ([[User talk:Sheherherhers|talk]]) 02:13, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
:Some trimming was done for the article due to its length, and quite a few things were simplified etc in the process. As for the year, here is a similar story: the Qin (state) conquered the Zhou dynasty in 256 BC; the Zhou dynasty was NEVER an empire, yet it is considered a dynasty of China, and historians usually date the Qin dynasty started in 221 BC. Of course one can argue that the Qin dynasty started in 256 BC (or even earlier), but still Wikipedia regards 221 BC as the start of the Qin dynasty according to the ''majority'' view. And for the Qing dynasty's start, the year 1644 is the ''majority'' view whereas 1636 is the ''minority'' view, both of which should be acknowledged. Regardless of the views, the first paragraph already explicitly mentions both years (1636 and 1644); they are both listed in the encyclopedia. However, the first paragraph of the article intends to be summative and brief, and indeed as you can see there is a ''too long'' tag for the article (which you seem to try to completely disregard). --[[User:Wengier|Wengier]] ([[User talk:Wengier|talk]]) 15:34, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
:Of course how Qing itself viewed such things are also ''very'' important. In the "Chinese history textbook" (中國歷史教科書) approved by the Qing court and published in 1910, [https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:NLC416-12jh005484-44578_%E4%B8%AD%E5%9C%8B%E6%AD%B7%E5%8F%B2%E6%95%99%E7%A7%91%E6%9B%B8.pdf&page=14 page 4] clearly shows that the Qin dynasty started in 221 BC, and [https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:NLC416-12jh005484-44578_%E4%B8%AD%E5%9C%8B%E6%AD%B7%E5%8F%B2%E6%95%99%E7%A7%91%E6%9B%B8.pdf&page=15 page 5] also clearly shows that the Great Qing dynasty started in 1644 AD, following the Ming dynasty that was established in 1368. These are the official dates from the Qing itself. Also, the late Qing history textbook﹃中國歷史教科書，原名本朝史講義﹄states in [https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:NLC416-14jh007845-69291_%E4%B8%AD%E5%9C%8B%E6%AD%B7%E5%8F%B2%E6%95%99%E7%A7%91%E6%9B%B8,%E5%8E%9F%E5%90%8D,%E6%9C%AC%E6%9C%9D%E5%8F%B2%E8%AC%9B%E7%BE%A9.pdf&page=15 page 1] that "The history of our dynasty is part of the history of China, that is, the most recent history in the whole history. China was founded five thousand years ago and has the longest history in the world. And its culture is the best among all the Eastern countries in ancient times. Its territory covers almost 90% of East Asia, and its rise and fall can affect the general trend of the countries in Asia. Therefore, the scope of Chinese history actually accounts for most of the entire history of the East..." (本朝史者，中國史之一部，即全史中之最近世史。中國之建邦，遠在五千年以前，有世界最長之歷史。又有其文化為古來東洋諸國之冠。其疆域奄有東方亞細亞之什九，其興衰隆替足以牽動亞細亞列國之大勢。故中國史之範圍，實佔東洋史全體之大半). The textbook also considers the year 1644 very important, officially known as “本朝之定鼎” ([https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:NLC416-14jh007845-69291_%E4%B8%AD%E5%9C%8B%E6%AD%B7%E5%8F%B2%E6%95%99%E7%A7%91%E6%9B%B8,%E5%8E%9F%E5%90%8D,%E6%9C%AC%E6%9C%9D%E5%8F%B2%E8%AC%9B%E7%BE%A9.pdf&page=64 page 46]), whereas the pre-1644 history is considered the history background of the dynasty. --[[User:Wengier|Wengier]] ([[User talk:Wengier|talk]]) 18:33, 10 April 2024 (UTC) My suggested revision as follows:<br>
{{tq|The Qing dynasty , officially the Great Qing, was a Manchu-led [[conquest dynasty]] of China and the last imperial dynasty in Chinese history. The dynasty was emerged from the [[Jurchen people|Jurchen]]-led [[Later Jin (1616–1636)|Later Jin dynasty]] established in [[Manchuria]] (present-day [[Northeast China]] and [[Outer Manchuria]]). It subsequently proclaimed as an empire in Shenyang in 1636, seized control of Beijing in 1644, which is considered the start of the dynasty's rule in China. The dynasty lasted until 1912, when it was overthrown in the Xinhai Revolution...}}
:Efforts had been made to reduce the length of the article (especially the lead), considering that the article is already very long (with a "too long" tag clearly shown). And regardless the start year (the minority view or the majority view, 1636 or 1644), I do not think there is need for the first paragraph (which intends to be brief) to mention the pre-events (before BOTH 1636 and 1644). Instead, the Later Jin dynasty is mentioned and explained in the second paragraph, and there is no repetition needed for the first paragraph. Otherwise, we can repeat various other events in the first paragraph too, which are however not intended for the first paragraph (especially considering that editors were trying hard to reduce its length). The point "conquest dynasty" is valid, but there is a lot more to be said as well, such as how Qing considered itself (which is certainly quite important), although such things may not really fit in an article which is already very long, especially in the very beginning. --[[User:Wengier|Wengier]] ([[User talk:Wengier|talk]]) 15:34, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
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