Talk:ACH Network: Difference between revisions

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== Article is far too US-centric ==

This article only describes the ACH in the United States. Many countries in the world have an ACH or ACH system that functions differently from that of the US. The article should be restructured with a genenric decription of what an ACH is and does, then have subsections on business, governance, and processing models etc., before then describing the US ACH (and prefferably others too) as one example.

--[[User:LippyTheLip|LippyTheLip]] 12:57, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:Agreed, ACH is not only a US term... There is something called PE-ACH, pan-European ACH.

::Also agree e.g. use of "the nation's" and also would like to see more about PE-ACH. Additionally a better description of the purpose of an ACH would be beneficial. --k <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/203.152.115.183|203.152.115.183]] ([[User talk:203.152.115.183|talk]]) 01:28, 19 January 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

:ACH is the name of the system in the US. The [[PE-ACH]] system should be discussed in the PE-ACH article. --[[User:Gbleem|Gbleem]] 22:18, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

::Agree. ACH is only a US term. Other countries have electronic payment systems but they are exactly that, other [[electronic payment system]]s. They can be discussed in their own article. ACH is the name of the US system, it has its own unique set of rules and this article reflects that accurately.

:I'm removing the worldwide tag. Automated Clearing House is a particular U.S. network, not a generic term. If you can find another network called "Automated Clearing House" post details here. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] - [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 23:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

:The idea that other electronic payment networks don't call themselves ACHs is absurd. In a generic sense, any system that clears electronic credit transfers and direct debits is an ACH. In this internationally accepted terminology, both the Fed and EPN are ACHs. NACHA is a rule-making body that sets the rule sunder which the two American ACHs operate. There are plenty of examples of other electronic payment systems that call themselves ACHs:

::The Euro Banking Association runs a pan-European ACH called STEP2. For details, see http://www.ebaclearing.eu/STEP2-N=STEP2-L=EN.aspx

::EACHA is the European ACH association, which includes over 20 ACHs in Europe. A press release details the founding of the organization and can be found at http://www.bundesbank.de/download/zahlungsverkehr/zv_announcement_eacha.pdf (The domain eacha.org points to Equens' web site, one of EACHA's founding members. EACHA does not itself have a web site.)

::The government of Singapore calls the country's clearing system an ACH. See http://www.mas.gov.sg/fin_development/fin_sec/payment_system/PaymentSettlement.html

::Bankserv in South Africa calls itself a slight variation, an "Automated Clearing Bureau." See http://www.bankserv.co.za/eft_acbeft.cfm

::I'l stop here, having looked at most English speaking countries. (Canada and Australia don't have ACHs. The banks in those countries clear bilaterally only.) <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:LippyTheLip|LippyTheLip]] ([[User talk:LippyTheLip|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/LippyTheLip|contribs]]) 16:48, 5 April 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

ACH is definitely not only a US term. The "ACH Network" in the US is run by NACHA. As mentioned by others, there are many automated clearing houses around the world. I will add NACHA-M and Cenit in Colombia; notice the resemblance of NACHA-M to NACHA's ACH Network and if I have the strength, I'll continue adding and adding.

This page MUST be restructured. ACH is not a company: the US ACH Network is managed by NACHA; that is what this article currently describes.

NotAutomated Clearing Houses (note S at the end as there is not only one in the world). [[User:Jedison brussels|Jedison brussels]] ([[User talk:Jedison brussels|talk]]) 14:46, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Another example. NACHA Wikipedia links to "ACH Network" which redirects to this page. It shouldn't. NACHA manages the US "ACH Network" as that article states. It does not manage all automated clearing houses in the world.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NACHA [[User:Jedison brussels|Jedison brussels]] ([[User talk:Jedison brussels|talk]]) 15:33, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

And describing an automated clearing house on the clearinghouse (finance) page doesn't make sense as clearinghoises are not necessarily automated and not only American. [[User:Jedison brussels|Jedison brussels]] ([[User talk:Jedison brussels|talk]]) 15:35, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

== 60 day - 90 day overlap ==

I don't understand the issue with the 60 and 90 day overlap. --[[User:Gbleem|Gbleem]] 22:13, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

This section starts with a garbled sentence: "Time day 60. However..." [[User:Mdz|Mdz]] ([[User talk:Mdz|talk]]) 16:37, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

== Who does what for whom? ==

"EPN and the Reserve Banks rely on each other for the processing of some transactions in which either the Originating Depository Financial Institution (ODFI) or Receiving Depository Financial Institution (RDFI) is not their customer. These interoperator transactions are settled by the Reserve Banks." I don't understand these two sentences. --[[User:Gbleem|Gbleem]] 22:13, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

== Reg E ==

Reg E doesn't deal with ACH transactions, only POS/EFT transactions; transactions that are originating with a card. State your source or an example. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Flavious27|Flavious27]] ([[User talk:Flavious27|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Flavious27|contribs]]){{#if:17:31:46, August 19, 2007 (UTC)|&#32;17:31:46, August 19, 2007 (UTC)}}.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:: Reg E Sec. 205.3 indicates the coverage including Point-of-Sale transfer without specifying means of the POS, direct deposit or withdrawal, and transfers initiated by telephone.

:Heres how the bank responded: <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Mkfarnam|Mkfarnam]] ([[User talk:Mkfarnam|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Mkfarnam|contribs]]) 17:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

<blockquote>

Thank you for your inquiry dated 9/24/07 regarding the transaction. We

sincerely apologize for the delay in replying to your e-mail. We will

be happy to assist you.

Note that the transaction was sent via the Automated Clearing House

system, also know as ACH. As such, the transaction is listed only

within the account statements after it has posted. This type of payment

is a contractual agreement between you and the merchant.

To cancel all future payments, we recommend contacting the payee or

merchant in writing. You can also make a stop payment request.

The stop payment can be placed on future payments to the vendor. Please

provide the following information:

- Exact date

- Exact amount

- Specific payee or merchant name of the payment

If these items are not exact, the item may be paid.

A stop payment fee of $20.00 will be deducted from your account. A stop

payment will be effective for six months. We are unable to place a stop

payment within three business days of the specified transaction date. If

you would like us to place a stop payment, please send us a message with

your request. We sincerely apologize for the inconvenience.

We value you as a customer and appreciate your business. If we may be

of further assistance, please contact us again by e-mail. Thank you for

choosing Bank of America. </blockquote>

== Clarifying the confusing sentences on EPN and Federal Reserve / Why Worldwide? ==

The ACH is one of the American banks' systems for processing checks. There are two groups that actually manage the ACH system - The Federal Reserve Banks (part of the U.S. Government's Treasury Department) and the EPN (Electronic Payments Network which is owned by The Clearing House Payments Company which in turn is owned by a group of banks that operate in the U.S. - [http://www.theclearinghouse.org]). Some banks do not subscribe to the Federal Reserve's ACH system, they only use the EPN's. Other banks only subscribe to the Federal Reserve's, and not EPN's. So when an EPN-subscribing bank needs to process a check issued by a Fed-subscribing bank, the EPN needs to hand off the transaction to the Fed. When a Fed-subscribing bank needs to process a check for an EPN-subscribing bank, the Fed actually takes care of the transaction as well. This is what the "These interoperator transactions are settled by the Reserve Banks." means.

As for the "worldwide" note at the top - I'm not aware of "The Automated Clearing House" being a global term used to describe anything generic or a group of systems that operate internationally. "The Automated Clearing House" is an American system setup and managed by the U.S. Federal Reserve Banks and commercial banks that operate in the U.S. (both international and American headquartered) for use in transactions involving American bank accounts. Why would this article need to be expanded to cover the worldwide view of the ACH when it doesn't exist outside of the U.S.?

== How about a subsection on ACH transfers vs. wire transfers? ==

How about a subsection on ACH transfers vs. wire transfers?

Yes, I agree. From the two wikipedia posts I gather the difference is ACH is scheduled and batch, whereas wire is a single transaction requiring id and authorization each time. Is this correct?

:Yes. [[User:Unimaginative Username|Unimaginative Username]] ([[User talk:Unimaginative Username|talk]]) 02:21, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Also it seems that ACH is a system between banks that doesn't charge anything extra to the transferers whereas a Fed wire is via the Federal Reserve and incurs additional fees. Banks are eager to provide their customers with direct deposit accounts presumably because of the steady inflows they can expect (and more efficient processing than that of paper checks). Both are subject to Fed regulations, but there is obviously more direct involvement with a Fed wire. It would help Wikipedia readers tremendously if these "FAQs" could be answered amidst the article's more technical info. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/64.61.165.98|64.61.165.98]] ([[User talk:64.61.165.98|talk]]) 12:45, 10 June 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

''"Also it seems that ACH is a system between banks that doesn't charge anything extra to the transferers whereas a Fed wire is via the Federal Reserve and incurs additional fees."''

:Yes. Although my bank recently notified me that they will start charging fees for electronic transfers to other institutions, such as an online bank. Sorry I don't have time to properly source and add these edits. [[User:Unimaginative Username|Unimaginative Username]] ([[User talk:Unimaginative Username|talk]]) 02:21, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

:Quick clarification. According to NACHA's [https://www.nacha.org/sites/default/files/files/2013%20Fee%20Schedule.pdf 2013 Fee Schedule], ACH operators pay an annual fee of $144 and a per-entry fee of $0.000145. There is a cost to the bank, albeit minimal. [[User:Jay Wiser|Jay Wiser]] ([[User talk:Jay Wiser|talk]]) 15:45, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

== Need to Discuss Clearing Times ==

One of the most important features of a payment system is the amount of time it takes transactions to clear. When a business collects payment via ACH, how fast do the funds hit their account?[[User:Cadwallader|Cadwallader]] ([[User talk:Cadwallader|talk]]) 02:50, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

: Everybody knows that an ACH can take anywhere from 1-5 business days. The interesting question is ''why'' does it take so long? The protocol described here ''sounds'' similar to sending e-mail with SMTP, which usually takes only a few seconds. But the way the article is written, it isn't clear whether the transactions are sent over a computer network like the Internet, or whether they have to be put on punched cards and fed to mainframes, or transmitted over an acoustic-coupling modem "network". [[Special:Contributions/75.186.5.185|75.186.5.185]] ([[User talk:75.186.5.185|talk]]) 13:21, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

== Technological vs. Social aspects. ==

This article really muddies the waters when it comes to the distinction between the technical vs. social aspects of the ACH system. Some paragraphs, like the one quoted below, make it sound like ACH could be conducted on paper directly between people:

<blockquote>

Once authorization is acquired, the Originator then creates an ACH entry to be given to an Originating Depository Financial Institution (ODFI), which can be any financial institution that does ACH origination. This ACH entry is then sent to an ACH Operator that passes it on to the Receiving Depository Financial Institution (RDFI), where the Receiver's account is issued either a debit or credit.</blockquote>

Imagine how hard the article on [HTTP] would be to understand if it was written that way:

<blockquote>

...the Web user first prepares a GET or POST request, then gives the request to the Web page author's Internet Service Provider (ISP), who then retrieves a page for them and sends it back in the HTTP response...

</blockquote>

[[Special:Contributions/75.186.5.185|75.186.5.185]] ([[User talk:75.186.5.185|talk]]) 13:47, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

== Eligibility and fees ==

Please specify the fees that users must pay for fund transfers made through this network. Also, please clearly state that this is a network for USA-residents only, thus, is NOT a [[PayPal]] or something similar. [[User:Mazarin07|Mazarin07]] ([[User talk:Mazarin07|talk]]) 12:18, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Fees are set by NACHA and paid by participating banks. 2015 rates ($216/year and $ .000162/entry) are listed [https://www.nacha.org/system/files/resources/2015%20Network%20Admin%20Fee%20Schedule.pdf here]. [[User:Jay Wiser|Jay Wiser]] ([[User talk:Jay Wiser|talk]]) 16:00, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

== ACH transactions between US and Canada? ==

Is it possible to perform ACH transfers between US and Canadian entities or accounts?

Many (or most, or all) Canadian banks seem to have operations of one sort or another in the US, and if so would that make it possible for US customers to make ACH payments (as opposed to paper checks or wire transfers) in US dollars to Canadian vendors? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/76.10.130.47|76.10.130.47]] ([[User talk:76.10.130.47|talk]]) 19:00, 13 March 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== ACH increasing over use of Credit Cards ==

Specifically this statement "Businesses increasingly use ACH online to have customers pay, rather than via credit or debit cards.[citation needed]", I definitely find this to not be particularly true. Unfortunately I have no basis for this claim beyond the fact that no online business is going to exclude credit/debit POP sales for ACH only payments. This line particularly feels as if it is suggesting that businesses who accept payment online are dismissing card payments in lieu of this. What I believe they are referring to is particularly the ability to add ACH as a recurrent payment method for many businesses allowing for account direct ACH debits, although this allowable method of payment does not exclude card payments in any businesses where I find I can do this (T-Mobile, AT&T, Humana Insurance I can verify allow such but still allow card usage). I feel that this should definitely be changed to reflect that it is not a replacement but rather an addition to the mainstay credit card method of payment. [[Special:Contributions/75.76.55.49|75.76.55.49]] ([[User talk:75.76.55.49|talk]]) 15:46, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

:Source on this content contains information about it being more popular than paper checks, doesn't mention popularity in relation to credit or debit cards. Agree that this statement has no source and is unfounded. [[User:RealityRipple|RealityRipple]] ([[User talk:RealityRipple|talk]]) 01:02, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

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