Talk:Aisha: Difference between revisions

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== Proposed guideline regarding Islamic honorifics and user-generated calligraphic images ==

[[File:Information.svg|30px|left]] You are invited to join the discussion at [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Islam-related articles#Islamic honorifics and user-generated calligraphic images]]. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;[[User:Apaugasma|<span style="color:#6a0dad">Apaugasma</span>]] ([[User talk:Apaugasma|<span style="color:#000">talk</span>]]&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Apaugasma|☉]])</span> 20:04, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

== Double paragraph under "Age at time of marriage" ==

One of the paragraphs in this passage is duplicated, I don't have the privileges to fix it. [[Special:Contributions/222.154.106.239|222.154.106.239]] ([[User talk:222.154.106.239|talk]]) 23:33, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

:Fixed. [[User:Kornatice|Kornatice]] ([[User talk:Kornatice|talk]]) 23:37, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

== Islam ==

What is the full name of aysha raliallahoo anha [[Special:Contributions/2402:4000:B18C:A73C:14FD:779F:D586:996E|2402:4000:B18C:A73C:14FD:779F:D586:996E]] ([[User talk:2402:4000:B18C:A73C:14FD:779F:D586:996E|talk]]) 11:32, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

== Full protection ==

Revert-warring in the article is unacceptable. To preserve stability, I have full-protected this article for one month while the current content dispute is worked out. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] <small>([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])</small> 03:10, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

== There is an urgent need for updating the info on Aisha Age. ==

Many Muslim historians, particularly Shia scholars who do not believe Sahih al-Bukhari to be authentic, have estimated Aisha's age to be between 18 and 19 by comparing her age to Asma bint Abi Bakr's age at the time of Aisha and other historical occurrences. We would be seriously violating WP:NPOV and WP:Cherrypicking if we only included the Sunni side of the argument while excluding the Shia side.

Study the sources yourselves: <ref>{{cite book |first=Asma |last=Barlas |date=2012 |title="Believing Women" in Islam: Unreading Patriarchal Interpretations of the Qur'an |publisher=University of Texas Press |page=126 |quote=On the other hand, however, Muslims who calculate 'Ayesha's age based on details of her sister Asma's age, about whom more is known, as well as on details of the Hijra (the Prophet's migration from Mecca to Madina), maintain that she was over thirteen and perhaps between seventeen and nineteen when she got married. Such views cohere with those Ahadith that claim that at her marriage Ayesha had "good knowledge of Ancient Arabic poetry and genealogy" and "pronounced the fundamental rules of Arabic Islamic ethics.}}</ref><ref>{{cite book |last1=Ali |first1=Muhammad |author1-link=Muhammad Ali (writer) |title=Muhammad the Prophet |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=od6dAQKgK-YC&pg=PT150 |date=1997 |publisher=Ahamadiyya Anjuman Ishaat Islam |isbn=978-0-913321-07-2 |page=150 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160101063555/https://books.google.com/books?id=od6dAQKgK-YC&pg=PT150&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false |archive-date=1 January 2016 }}</ref><ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.valiasr-aj.com/fa/page.php?bank=question&id=699 |title=Ayesha married the Prophet when she was young? (In Persian and Arabic) |last=Ayatollah Qazvini |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20100926234317/http://www.valiasr-aj.com/fa/page.php?bank=question&id=699 |archive-date=26 September 2010 }}</ref><ref>{{cite book |last1=A.C. Brown |first1=Jonathan |author-link=Jonathan A.C. Brown |title=Misquoting Muhammad: The Challenge and Choices of Interpreting the Prophet's Legacy |date=2014 |publisher=[[Oneworld Publications]] |isbn=978-1-78074-420-9 |pages=[https://archive.org/details/misquotingmuhamm0000brow/page/146 146–47] |url=https://archive.org/details/misquotingmuhamm0000brow/page/146 }}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|title=Discourse on Aisha' age|url=http://www.ukm.my/ijit/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Mohd-Al-Adib-IJIT-21-June-2021-229.pdf}}</ref>

Now, yes, it is disputed and will become even more so in the near future. But right now the best we can do is provide all responses, it is of vital importance, otherwise I would not bother. [[User:StarkReport|StarkReport]] ([[User talk:StarkReport|talk]]) 10:42, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

:If I may chime in for a moment, I think perhaps there may be some misunderstanding here. Aisha's age at the time of her marriage has not been a historical topic of contention between Sunni and Shia Muslims. To the best of my knowledge there are no Shia hadith compilations or other important historical Shia works disputing her traditionally-accepted age. As the article notes, it became a topic of debate fairly recently (the 20th century) due to changing global attitudes towards child marriage. This is true for both Sunni and Shia writers. It is true that many Shia works portray Aisha in certain ways, but those differences (already mentioned on the page) are not about her age. I have not seen anything to suggest that there is any notable sectarian divide for this topic in the modern day, either, nor do any of those sources state as much. The exact wording of the sentence you dislike is a separate issue, but I don't think it's at all reasonable to portray this as "the Shia side". (Incidentally, the citation attributed to Ayatollah Qazvini is from a Q&A section, and that page does not claim to have been written by him; the authors listed at the end are an unnamed "team" for responding to questions from people with doubts about their religion.) Apologies for inserting myself in this matter, but I did put together a bunch of sources for this exact paragraph if you'd like to look at them. They're on the most recent archived talk page. [[User:Dragoon17|Dragoon17]] ([[User talk:Dragoon17|talk]]) 07:49, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

:Your points were refuted already by this your own [http://www.ukm.my/ijit/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Mohd-Al-Adib-IJIT-21-June-2021-229.pdf source].

: {{talkquote|The critics of this hadith propose that Aisha was a teenager, or older than a child when she married the Prophet (Kandhalvi 1997; al-Idlibi in Mol 2018; Juyandeh 2010; Ahmed 2012). They make their argument by comparing the ages of individuals who are contemporary and close to Aisha, such as her sister, Asma' and the Prophet's daughter, Fatima. It was recorded that Asma’ died at the age of 100 in 73 AH (al-’Asqalani 1986; Ibn ‘Abd al-Bar 1992; Ibnu Kathir 1990). Her age at the time of Hijrah was around 27 years (Ibn al-Athir 1989; Abu Nu’aym 1998). Moreover, Aisha is said to be 10 years younger than Asma’ as reported by Abdul Rahman Ibn Abi Zinad (al-Zahabi 1963), which makes her age about 17 during the marriage (Islamweb 2003); thus, she is estimated to be around 18 years old when living with the Prophet, which is about a year after she migrated to Medina (al-Ghufayli 2011), or 18 months after the Prophet’s migration to Medina (Ibn Abd al-Bar 1992).</br> Traditionalists dismiss this calculation by arguing that the age difference of Asma' and Aisha of 10 years is not a consensus among Islamic historians. It was noted that al-Zahabi (1963) stated that the age difference between the two was between 13 and 19 years, and not 10 years as the critics assume. Thus, Aisha's age in the year of Hijrah was eight or nine years old and not 18 years old (IslamQA n.d.). Asma's age at the time of the migration was 27 years minus the 19 years age gap between the two, which means Aisha's age was seven years old when she married the Prophet, a year before the Hijrah. This aligns with al-'Asqalani’s (1994) report, which asserted Aisha was born four or five years after the advent of Islam. In echoing the hadith giants such as Yahya Ibn Mu’in, Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, al-Nasaie, Abu Ahmad al-Hakim dan Abu Hatim, the traditionalists also attacked the credibility of Ibn Abi Zinad as a weak narrator to dismiss his narration (Malik 2018; al-Ghufayli 2011).}}

:And it seems to me that the mainstream Shia scholars agree with the Sunni on the age of Aisha.<ref>{{Cite web |title=What was Shia stance regarding Aisha's age when marrying the Prophet... |url=https://www.islamiqate.com/3212/what-was-shia-stance-regarding-aishas-when-marrying-prophet |access-date=2023-02-21 |website=www.islamiqate.com |language=en-GB}}</ref> Thus, further confirms that what you're presenting is a [[Wikipedia:Fringe theories|fringe theory]]. [[User:Androvie|Androvie]] ([[User talk:Androvie|talk]]) 14:26, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

::Wrong; the source was there to reflect the views and arguments of both sides. For example, Shia scholars such as Al-Sayyid Ja'far Murtada al-'Amili or Muhammad Husayni al-Qazwini and even Sunni scholars such as Muhammad Farooq Khan and Habibur Rahman Kandhalvi, as well as authors Ruqaiyyah Waris Maqsood and Shaykh Dr Ridhwan among many others. It's important to provide a balanced and fair representation of both sides of the argument, which is why our source includes viewpoints from various scholars and authors. This is a topic of debate and controversy in modern times and varies among different interpretations and practices within the Islamic faith.

::Nevertheless, we are not judging who is right or wrong, just presenting their respective arguments. The content about『re-calculated her age—using deft stratagems of omission and commission—to fix it at early adolescence』fails WP:Neutral policy, it actually just favours the Sunni side. Yet being close-minded and fixated on a particular way of reading, you are trying to suppress the essential part of the information. [[User:StarkReport|StarkReport]] ([[User talk:StarkReport|talk]]) 11:20, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

:::{{talkquote|It actually just favours the Sunni side.}}

:::You say that, yet don’t you know that your own sources use Sunni narrations, but only the weaker ones, while disregarding the stronger narrations such as those from Sahih Bukhari? Please read them first.

:::Also, what you’re doing in your revision is giving undue weight to a [[Wikipedia:Fringe theories|fringe theory]]. It’s just like writing that:

:::{{talkquote| The earth is ellipsoid in shape, but some scientists, based on some evidence, state that it is actually flat-shaped.}}

:::[[User:Androvie|Androvie]] ([[User talk:Androvie|talk]]) 13:25, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Protecing admin chiming in here. As a Wikipedia policy question, since [[WP:NPOV]] was mentioned, the relevant policy here would be [[WP:FALSEBALANCE]], which is part of [[WP:NPOV]]. That said, a minority viewpoint held by notable scholars could possibly be included as long as the article makes it clear that the viewpoint is in the minority. Might it be possible route to a consensus? ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] <small>([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])</small> 06:00, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

:Exactly. I agree with Anachronist. If you read my sentence, I wrote 'Some modern Muslim authors'. I did not present the information as mainstream or widely accepted. I am not objecting to the paragraph that presents sources from the classical era on Aisha's age. I am only including the information about modern Muslim authors who calculate Aisha's age based on other sources of information, such as a hadith about the age difference between Aisha and her sister Asma, estimating that she was over thirteen and must have been 18 or 19 at the time of her marriage. This is because not every scholar is intent on modernizing and they have legitimate doubts about Aisha's age in Sahih al-Bukhari. it's crucial to mention their methods to present a more comprehensive discussion on the topic. As everyone has mentioned, traditionalists indeed dispute this and that info is presented in the next paragraph, which will stay there. The "Some modern Muslim" is enough for readers to know that this is a minority viewpoint [[User:StarkReport|StarkReport]] ([[User talk:StarkReport|talk]]) 09:22, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

::The problem is, as explained in this [http://www.ukm.my/ijit/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Mohd-Al-Adib-IJIT-21-June-2021-229.pdf source] that you yourself presented, and in this wiki article; the theory you brought up is based on cherry-picking Sunni sources by rejecting the sound ([[sahih]]) reports regarding Aisha's age and how it differs from [[Asma bint Abi Bakr|Asma]]'s age in favor of the weaker ones. The theory also falsely claims that there is only one source for Aisha's age of 6 when she was married to Muhammad (i.e., [[Hisham ibn Urwah|Hisham]], the grandson of Asma) and uses Hisham’s old age when narrating it as an excuse to reject it, despite the fact that there are many other sources or reports unrelated to Hisham, that tell the same thing that Aisha was indeed 6-7 years old when Muhammad married her.

::Therefore by adding in this wiki article after the paragraphs about reports on Aisha's age, that:

::{{talkquote|Some modern Muslim authors who calculate Aisha's age based on other sources of information, such as a hadith about the age difference between Aisha and her sister Asma, estimate that she was over thirteen and must have been 18 or 19 at the time of her marriage.}}

::Despite the fact that it was already refuted by mainstream scholars, it creates a [[Wikipedia:False balance|false balance]] where the [[Wikipedia:Fringe theories|fringe theory]] has equal, or stronger, standing than the mainstream view. It’s just like writing on wiki article on earth, after a paragraph explaining that it is ellipsoid, that

::{{talkquote|Some scientists, based on some evidence, found out that the earth is actually flat-shaped.}} [[User:Androvie|Androvie]] ([[User talk:Androvie|talk]]) 11:52, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

: @[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] Actually, the current revision which was the result of the previous consensus already contained the minority view (which falls under [[historical negationism]]) raised by @[[User:StarkReport|StarkReport]]. It’s the bolded part:

:{{talkquote|'''In response, some Muslims chose to align themselves with the projects of modernization and re-calculated her age—using deft stratagems of omission and commission—to fix it at early adolescence''', but conservatives rejected such revisionist readings since they flew in the face of ʻilm al-ḥadīth.}}

:But it seems that @[[User:StarkReport|StarkReport]] wants that view to have the same or higher position than the mainstream view. As in

:{{talkquote|The earth is ellipsoid in shape, '''but some scientists, based on some evidence, state that it is actually flat-shaped'''.}}

:Even though this minority view has been refuted by mainstream scholars. [[User:Androvie|Androvie]] ([[User talk:Androvie|talk]]) 10:14, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

::Wow, using false equivalence fallacy to bear out your own view.

::As the discourse surrounding Aisha's age becomes more contentious, it is important to acknowledge that a significant proportion of the global population, particularly the Shia community, hold beliefs that contradict the commonly accepted age of Aisha at the time of her marriage. This disagreement has the potential to affect the perceptions and beliefs of millions of individuals. Therefore, it is crucial to consider and present all relevant viewpoints in a comprehensive and impartial manner. [[User:StarkReport|StarkReport]] ([[User talk:StarkReport|talk]]) 10:34, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

:::I can't find any source that states that Shia widely believe that Aisha was not 6-7 years old when Muhammad married her. The opinion of one or two shia scholars who follow a few ahmadiyya scholars in cherrypicking Sunni sources does not represent the opinion of all shia, or the fundamental doctrine of shia. Moreover, that fringe theory has been refuted by conservative Muslim scholars, which is summarized in the part I quoted above from the article. [[User:Androvie|Androvie]] ([[User talk:Androvie|talk]]) 11:10, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

::::There is not a an opinion poll for sunni either. And wrong its not just few but various scholars are disputing this issue many of whom state that the available historical evidence does not support the claim. Check all the sources again. Moreover, Quran itself emphasize the importance of consent and physical and mental maturity in marriage. The refutation by conservative Muslim scholars is not extensively embraced either. [[User:StarkReport|StarkReport]] ([[User talk:StarkReport|talk]]) 12:02, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

::::Right after "Beginning in the late-----to reforms, what if『In response, some Muslims-----face of ʻilm al-ḥadīth.』 was rephrased in a new paragraph as

::::"Different perspectives emerged among Muslims in response. Some scholars generally Shia scholars pointed out that the historical evidence does not support the claim of aisha being 9. They calculated Aisha's age based on other sources of information, like the dates of contemporary events and ages of contemporary people, and estimated that she was over thirteen and must have been 18 or 19 at the time of her marriage. But conservatives disputed this and said that they flew in the face of ʻilm al-ḥadīth."

::::That satisfies WP:FALSEBALANCE and WP:NPOV. And it perfectly summarizes it as a viewpoint held by a minority. [[User:StarkReport|StarkReport]] ([[User talk:StarkReport|talk]]) 12:25, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

:::::Bit better

::::: ""Different perspectives emerged among Muslims in response. Some scholars generally Shia scholars pointed out that the historical evidence does not support the claim of aisha being 9. They calculated Aisha's age based on other sources of information, like the dates of contemporary events and ages of contemporary people, and estimated that she was over thirteen and must have been 18 or 19 at the time of her marriage. Some recalculated it with the intent of modernization. But conservatives disputed this and said that they flew in the face of ʻilm al-ḥadīth." [[User:StarkReport|StarkReport]] ([[User talk:StarkReport|talk]]) 12:29, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

::::::Nope, sorry. First off, it’s original research, as there is no reliable source that says that Shia scholars widely reject the age of Aisha being 6-7 when Muhammad married her.

::::::Secondly, it is giving too much undue weight to the fringe theory. It’s like describing vaguely at length the flat earth theory on [[Earth]], without providing detailed rebuttals from mainstream scientists to that theory, adding only at the end of the paragraph that, “conservative scientists disputed this and said they flew in the face of natural science.” [[User:Androvie|Androvie]] ([[User talk:Androvie|talk]]) 13:10, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

:::::::Egregious use of false equivalence fallacy.

:::::::Additionally, the original and reliable sources I provided contains detailed rebuttals, as do the sources I cited back in November." The above info is more precise and integral to the broader discourse. It's weight is due otherwise we might as well remove the whole non-neutral and unconstructive "Age of Aisha" section. You are actively trying to to stifle the dissemination of the information.

:::::::Regrettably, a senior editor is okay with a biased representation of the content even when it is being edited by a user who has created his account solely to edit on single topic, pushing his own point of view and doing nothing else. [[User:StarkReport|StarkReport]] ([[User talk:StarkReport|talk]]) 13:53, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

::::::::Nope, sorry. Besides the reasons I listed above, your proposal gives the false impression that, if calculated based on contemporary events and the ages of contemporary people, Aisha's age must have been 18 or 19, even though there are [http://www.ukm.my/ijit/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Mohd-Al-Adib-IJIT-21-June-2021-229.pdf rebuttals] from mainstream scholars saying that the theory is using the cherry-picking method by rejecting reliable reports and selectively picking weak ones. [[User:Androvie|Androvie]] ([[User talk:Androvie|talk]]) 14:11, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

::::::if you want to give some examples of what the fringe theory says, proper rebuttal to them, like in this [http://www.ukm.my/ijit/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Mohd-Al-Adib-IJIT-21-June-2021-229.pdf source], should also be addressed. [[User:Androvie|Androvie]] ([[User talk:Androvie|talk]]) 13:35, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

:::::::We have already included that『conservatives rejected such revisionist readings since they flew in the face of ʻilm al-ḥadīth.』[[User:StarkReport|StarkReport]] ([[User talk:StarkReport|talk]]) 13:55, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

::::::::Nope, that’s not enough, if the arguments from the flat earthers were to be described quite at length on Earth WP article, but the rebuttal of it is just one sentence without explaining why the claim is false, it’s the same as giving undue weight to the flat earth theory. [[User:Androvie|Androvie]] ([[User talk:Androvie|talk]]) 14:17, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

:::::::::Your use of logical fallacies just demonstrates your lack of grasp on the topic. Additionally, it seems that you have already placed an excessive emphasis on the sources of Ali Kecia, and with its content occupying multiple paragraphs. The point I brought up consists of just two lines and the『conservatives rejected such revisionist readings since they flew in the face of ʻilm al-ḥadīth.』and the surrounding context is more than enough as a rebuttal.

:::::::::Like I said before, your motive to suppress information is transparent. [[User:StarkReport|StarkReport]] ([[User talk:StarkReport|talk]]) 14:47, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

::::::::::No matter if it consists of just 2, 1, or a half line, if it contains disinformation, it should not be accepted. In your proposal, you make it sound like all the reports regarding events and people’s ages at that time only match Aisha's age of 18–19 at the time of her marriage’s consummation, not 9. This is false, because the mainstream scholars quoted in this [http://www.ukm.my/ijit/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Mohd-Al-Adib-IJIT-21-June-2021-229.pdf source] that you previously brought up say a lot of reliable reports regarding those match the age of Aisha being 9 when Muhammad consummated his marriage with her, with a few weak narrators who differ with each other's reports otherwise.

::::::::::The fringe theorists also made many distortions, such as

::::::::::*Claiming that all reports of Aisha's age of 9 years only come from [[Hisham ibn Urwah|Hisham]] (the grandson of [[Asma bint Abi Bakr|Asma]], Aisha’s sister), which is false because there are many other reports that are not from Hisham that say the same. Some of them are [https://sunnah.com/nasai:3379 1], [https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422d 2], [https://sunnah.com/nasai:3255 3], [https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1877 4], [https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422c 5]

::::::::::*Claiming that the entire content of chapter 54 of the [[Quran]] was revealed in [[Mecca]], when in fact according to reports some of its verses were revealed in [[Medina]].

::::::::::*Using an incorrect translation of Tabari's record to claim that Aisha was born in the pre-Islamic period, when the accurate translation according to mainstream scholars is that it was her mother whom her father married in the pre-Islamic period, "The four are his children born to his two wives whom we stated in the Jahiliyya (pre-Islamic) period.” Elsewhere Tabari mentions that Aisha was 9 years old when her marriage was consummated, so clearly the mainstream scholars' translation is the correct one.

::::::::::[[User:Androvie|Androvie]] ([[User talk:Androvie|talk]]) 06:04, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

:As an aside, this section of the page has now become heavily afflicted by editorializing (alongside being an overly contested menace). Basically everything now bracketed by m-dashes is dubious side commentary. Editors need to stick to reporting the information as neutrally as possible without injecting excessive narration and leading commentary into the text. If there are comments of this nature in the original sources then they may be best included as notes cited directly to the source, rather than as editorializing page clutter. [[User:Iskandar323|Iskandar323]] ([[User talk:Iskandar323|talk]]) 06:36, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

::Funny, weren't you [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aisha&diff=1110975479&oldid=1110957851 one] of the supporters of Tranga's draft? I haven't seen any significant changes since then. I personally was a supporter of @[[User:Dragoon17|Dragoon17]]'s draft, and had some arguments with Tranga, but I eventually agreed after seeing his draft, even though I had to compromise on some parts. However, I do concur that the page could benefit from copy editing, as could from omission of the heavily contested fringe theory that says Aisha was not 9 years old when Muhammad consummated his marriage to her. Because [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|WP:GEVAL]] states that…

::{{talkquote|While it is important to account for all significant viewpoints on any topic, Wikipedia policy does not state or imply that every minority view, [[WP:Fringe theories|fringe theory]], or [[WP:ECREE|extraordinary claim]] needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship as if they were of equal validity. There are many such beliefs in the world, some popular and some little-known: claims that the [[Modern flat Earth societies|Earth is flat]], that the [[Knights Templar]] possessed the [[Holy Grail]], that the [[Moon landing conspiracy theories|Apollo Moon landings were a hoax]], and similar ones. [[Conspiracy theories]], [[pseudoscience]], [[pseudohistory|speculative history]], or plausible but currently unaccepted theories should not be legitimized through comparison to accepted academic scholarship. We do not take a stand on these issues as encyclopedia writers, for or against; we merely omit this information where including it would unduly legitimize it, and otherwise include and describe these ideas in their proper context concerning established scholarship and the beliefs of the wider world.}} [[User:Androvie|Androvie]] ([[User talk:Androvie|talk]]) 08:46, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

:::Just because I said one version was an improvement does not mean I think it is the best of all possible versions. I think the priority here should be locking in a text, possibly via RFC, and then adding a very firm note on the talk page directing people to past discussions and discouraging opening fresh ones. The ongoing discussion about this is just a microcosm of broader disputes around this contentious material. Presumably everyone here has a POV, otherwise they wouldn't be so invested in this, but I frankly don't care so long as an outcome is reached that puts an end to the squabbling. But to your point, no, I do not think that one side of the equation in the debates around this should be removed, because that would be an obvious violation of [[WP:BALANCE]]. The goal here is to lay out all the views, not conclude anything. And the only fringe theory here is that anyone has the slightest clue about the age of this 7th-century individual, when, in fact, nobody has a clue because primary religious texts are not v. useful sources and the whole debate is basically entirely academic. [[User:Iskandar323|Iskandar323]] ([[User talk:Iskandar323|talk]]) 09:35, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

::::Sorry, but the sources make it clear that the revisionist theories that changed Aisha's age from 9 to 18 at the time of her marriage's consummation have been disproven by mainstream Islamic scholars.<ref name=":0">{{cite book |last1=A.C. Brown |first1=Jonathan |url=https://archive.org/details/misquotingmuhamm0000brow |title=Misquoting Muhammad: The Challenge and Choices of Interpreting the Prophet's Legacy |publisher=[[Oneworld Publications]] |year=2014 |isbn=978-1780744209 |pages=142–155 |author-link=Jonathan A.C. Brown}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|title=Discourse on Aisha' age|url=http://www.ukm.my/ijit/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Mohd-Al-Adib-IJIT-21-June-2021-229.pdf}}</ref><ref>https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Yusuf-Hanafi/publication/339284512_KONTROVERSI_USIA_KAWIN_AISYAH_RA_DAN_KAITANNYA_DENGAN_LEGALITAS_PERKAWINAN_ANAK_DI_BAWAH_UMUR_DALAM_ISLAM/links/5e47796fa6fdccd965a5ddbd/KONTROVERSI-USIA-KAWIN-AISYAH-RA-DAN-KAITANNYA-DENGAN-LEGALITAS-PERKAWINAN-ANAK-DI-BAWAH-UMUR-DALAM-ISLAM.pdf</ref>

::::Some of the methods used by revisionists include presenting [[Da'if|questionable]] sources, inventing ingenious but implausible reasons for doubting [[Sahih al-Bukhari|reliable]] records, assigning conclusions to books and sources that convey the contrary, manipulating statistical series to support their given point of view, and purposefully using mistranslated texts.

::::These are all characteristics of [[historical negationism]]. Thus, even more reason it shouldn’t be given undue weight, since otherwise would be an obvious violation of [[WP:GEVAL]]. [[User:Androvie|Androvie]] ([[User talk:Androvie|talk]]) 10:43, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

:::::Absolutely no one has proof of anything here; it's all just theory, namely because all of the sources used here are primary religious texts and of the utmost questionability. [[Historical negationism]] is distortion of the historical record, but here there is no historical record to distort. There are just various opinions on the matter. If anything, the more reliable part of the material is the historiographical element reflecting on shifts in source interpretation, since this at least reflects on something documented and therefore has some sort of basis in a modern, academic, methodological process, unlike hadith interpretation. [[User:Iskandar323|Iskandar323]] ([[User talk:Iskandar323|talk]]) 11:01, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

::::::For your information, [[Sahih al-Bukhari]] is recognized by mainstream Muslim scholars as the most authentic and most highly regarded collection of records of Islamic history. This makes Muslims who reject it a very tiny minority of that community, and their views should not be given undue weight in articles on Islamic topics. Besides, it is obvious that the revisionists use [[historical negationism]] techniques in their theories such as:

::::::*Claiming that all [[Hadith|hadiths]] about Aisha's age of 9 when Muhammad consummated his marriage with her are from [[Hisham ibn Urwah|Hisham]] (grandson of [[Asma bint Abi Bakr|Asma]], Aisha’s sister), and attacking Hisham's credibility if he was senile when he transmitted them. This is a gross misrepresentation since there are numerous other sahih hadiths in which Hisham is not one of the transmitters that state Aisha was 9 years old at the time. Some of those include. [https://sunnah.com/nasai:3379 1], [https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422d 2], [https://sunnah.com/nasai:3255 3], [https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1877 4], [https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422c 5]

::::::*Claiming that the entire content of chapter 54 of the [[Quran]] was revealed in [[Mecca]], when in fact according to reports some of its verses were revealed in [[Medina]].

::::::*Using an incorrect translation of Tabari's record to claim that Aisha was born in the pre-Islamic period, when the accurate translation according to mainstream scholars is that it was her mother whom her father married in the pre-Islamic period, "The four are his children born to his two wives whom we stated in the Jahiliyya (pre-Islamic) period.” Elsewhere Tabari mentions that Aisha was 9 years old when her marriage was consummated, so clearly the mainstream scholars' translation is the correct one.

::::::[[User:Androvie|Androvie]] ([[User talk:Androvie|talk]]) 11:41, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

:::::::The 'most authentic and highly regarded' primary religious text is still just a primary religious text. That a whole suite of primary religious texts align on a data point does not necessarily mean that the data point on which they align is any more reliable or verifiable - it is a well-known paradox of historical accounts that those which contain errors or inconsistencies are often reliable than those that are too consistent or coherent, since these instead tend more to imply imposed narrative or subsequent embellishment. And in fact, here, we already have Islamic studies specialists stating the exact reason why accounts of these events may have been susceptible to embellishment, noting the likely desire to emphasis the subject's chastity and purity. Separately, I'd like to see your source for Tabari's self-contradiction being an 'incorrect translation', because we currently have no sources supporting this, but subject-matter experts saying otherwise. [[User:Iskandar323|Iskandar323]] ([[User talk:Iskandar323|talk]]) 12:39, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

::::::::It still doesn't change the fact that, to support their point of view, the revisionists:

::::::::*falsely claim that all the [[Hadith|hadiths]] about Aisha being 9 years old at the time of consummation are from [[Hisham ibn Urwah|Hisham]], when in fact there are many other hadiths that tell the same story in which Hisham was not one of the transmitters: [https://sunnah.com/nasai:3379 1], [https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422d 2], [https://sunnah.com/nasai:3255 3], [https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1877 4], [https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422c 5]

::::::::*falsely claim that the entire content of chapter 54 of the [[Quran]] was revealed in [[Mecca]], when in fact according to reports some of its verses were revealed in [[Medina]].

::::::::*use an incorrect translation of Tabari's record to claim that Aisha was born in the pre-Islamic period, when the accurate translation according to mainstream scholars is that it was her mother whom her father married in the pre-Islamic period, "The four are his children born to his two wives whom we stated in the Jahiliyya (pre-Islamic) period.” Elsewhere Tabari mentions that Aisha was 9 years old when her marriage was consummated, so clearly the mainstream scholars' translation is the correct one.

::::::::etc.<ref name=":0">{{cite book |last1=A.C. Brown |first1=Jonathan |url=https://archive.org/details/misquotingmuhamm0000brow |title=Misquoting Muhammad: The Challenge and Choices of Interpreting the Prophet's Legacy |publisher=[[Oneworld Publications]] |year=2014 |isbn=978-1780744209 |pages=142–155 |author-link=Jonathan A.C. Brown}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|title=Discourse on Aisha' age|url=http://www.ukm.my/ijit/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Mohd-Al-Adib-IJIT-21-June-2021-229.pdf}}</ref><ref>https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Yusuf-Hanafi/publication/339284512_KONTROVERSI_USIA_KAWIN_AISYAH_RA_DAN_KAITANNYA_DENGAN_LEGALITAS_PERKAWINAN_ANAK_DI_BAWAH_UMUR_DALAM_ISLAM/links/5e47796fa6fdccd965a5ddbd/KONTROVERSI-USIA-KAWIN-AISYAH-RA-DAN-KAITANNYA-DENGAN-LEGALITAS-PERKAWINAN-ANAK-DI-BAWAH-UMUR-DALAM-ISLAM.pdf</ref>

::::::::No matter what, this is a gross misrepresentation, a disinformation that should not be included, let alone given undue weight in articles on Islamic topics. [[User:Androvie|Androvie]] ([[User talk:Androvie|talk]]) 14:01, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

:::::::::Ok, well if you have nothing else to say except to repeat what you've already said and quote from sunnah.com then I guess we are done here, pending input from other editors. [[User:Iskandar323|Iskandar323]] ([[User talk:Iskandar323|talk]]) 15:29, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

::::::Agreed. Like I said before, Androvie is engaging in a egregious use of the false equivalence fallacy, comparing a bunch of religious texts to outright scientific facts facts like the Earth being round or Apollo Moon landings.

::::::One important issue Androvie is omitting is that if Sahih al-Bukhari is recognised as most authentic and most highly regarded collection of records, than there would be no 400 million Shias. For them, its legitimacy is just as same as those so called "weaker narrations" we were talking about earlier. And, again its not just Shia scholars but Sunni scholars and authors as well.

::::::This is my final presentation: ( After the first paragraph, in a new one)

::::::"Different perspectives emerged among Muslims in response. Some scholars generally Shia scholars pointed out that the historical evidence does not support the claim of aisha being 9. They calculated Aisha's age based on other sources of information, like the dates of contemporary events and ages of contemporary people, and estimated that she was over fifteen and must have been 18 or 19 at the time of her marriage. Some recalculated it with the intent of modernization. But conservatives(or traditionalists) rejected this, citing the weakness of those narrations and said that they contradicted(or flew in the face of) Sahih al-Bukhari."

::::::The above info is more precise instead of the non-neutral "using deft stratagems" or hazy "omission and commission" and also expands more on rebuttals "citing the weakness of those narrations and said that they contradicted(or flew in the face of) Sahih al-Bukhari."

::::::Otherwise, its impossible to improve the stagnant article. @[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] might as well lock the article forever or make Androvie an administrator. It wouldn't make a difference. [[User:StarkReport|StarkReport]] ([[User talk:StarkReport|talk]]) 15:31, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

:@[[User:Iskandar323|Iskandar323]] I have clearly presented secondary sources after the word etc (<ref name=":0">{{cite book |last1=A.C. Brown |first1=Jonathan |url=https://archive.org/details/misquotingmuhamm0000brow |title=Misquoting Muhammad: The Challenge and Choices of Interpreting the Prophet's Legacy |publisher=[[Oneworld Publications]] |year=2014 |isbn=978-1780744209 |pages=142–155 |author-link=Jonathan A.C. Brown}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|title=Discourse on Aisha' age|url=http://www.ukm.my/ijit/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Mohd-Al-Adib-IJIT-21-June-2021-229.pdf}}</ref><ref>https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Yusuf-Hanafi/publication/339284512_KONTROVERSI_USIA_KAWIN_AISYAH_RA_DAN_KAITANNYA_DENGAN_LEGALITAS_PERKAWINAN_ANAK_DI_BAWAH_UMUR_DALAM_ISLAM/links/5e47796fa6fdccd965a5ddbd/KONTROVERSI-USIA-KAWIN-AISYAH-RA-DAN-KAITANNYA-DENGAN-LEGALITAS-PERKAWINAN-ANAK-DI-BAWAH-UMUR-DALAM-ISLAM.pdf</ref>), and even before that in my previous replies to you.

:Sunnah.com is just to confirm the mainstream scholars' refutation that the revisionists are doing disinformation with false claims about their primary sources.

:Why don't you answer that and instead go around saying that it's all just religious texts?

:Religious text or whatever, if a party repeatedly uses disinformation tactics it still makes their theory fringe.

:I might agree with them if they used a time machine to prove that Aisha’s marriage was not consummated at the age of 9, or other archaeologically valid means.

:But they make false claims about the [[Hadith|hadiths]] like by saying that all the hadiths that tell about it (that Aisha’s marriage was consummated at the age of 9) come from [[Hisham ibn Urwah|Hisham]], when in fact this is not the case, because there are many hadiths in which Hisham is not one of the transmitters that tell about the same thing. [https://sunnah.com/nasai:3379 1], [https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422d 2], [https://sunnah.com/nasai:3255 3], [https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1877 4], [https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422c 5] [[User:Androvie|Androvie]] ([[User talk:Androvie|talk]]) 22:49, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

== Regarding using “rebuked” word. ==

Is there any accurate reference for this statement “The prophet Muhammed was rebuked publicly by his wives”? According to several Hadithes, his wives asked as a meaning of a question like that why we are doing it in this way rather than doing any tradition, but they asked for learning like if there is a new statement came from the God. So I suggest for correction the words of “rebuked” and “fought” by replacing the word of “asked”. [[Special:Contributions/5.173.8.214|5.173.8.214]] ([[User talk:5.173.8.214|talk]]) 17:01, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

:The word "rebuked" is being used in a quotation of a cited source. Quoting a source requires using the words in the source, not substituting other words. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] <small>([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])</small> 05:52, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

== Protection ==

Ffs, if one editor is trying to mainstream a fringe narrative using poor non-academic sources and tampering with the longstanding version w/o any consensus, the way out is to impose a P-block. Not sysop-protect the page! [[User:TrangaBellam|TrangaBellam]] ([[User talk:TrangaBellam|talk]]) 14:30, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

:I came here to add new arguments from Joshua Little's thesis but .... [[User:TrangaBellam|TrangaBellam]] ([[User talk:TrangaBellam|talk]]) 14:36, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

::If you’d be so kind, can you post your draft here? [[User:Androvie|Androvie]] ([[User talk:Androvie|talk]]) 14:47, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

::{{reply|TrangaBellam}} Any edit requests proposed during the protection period will be considered. If non-controversial, I can add it in. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] <small>([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])</small> 17:39, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

== Islamophobic polemicist? ==

While Kecia Ali has tries her best to dampen the "hysteria" around child sexual abuse and humanise sex with children a bit, even she doesn't go as far as to call the polemicists against the marriage "Islamophobic", which is quite a loaded term.

From the source:『Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha has become, for contemporary polemicists, evidence of pedophilia not as a medical diagnosis but as an archaic and evil force.』No mention of any phobias in the given ranges and surrounding pages either. That insertion would be the bias of Wikipedia editors. It is both against Wikipedia policy and distortion of the source. Please edit it away. [[Special:Contributions/117.194.197.190|117.194.197.190]] ([[User talk:117.194.197.190|talk]]) 22:23, 24 February 2023 (UTC)