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Talk:Armenian genocide/Arguments: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 22:46, 20 February 2007

The Armenian word for genocide is "LIES", capiche? 85.1.89.101 11:04, 27 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I for one do not "capiche". Please explain in detail, with references. -- Jibal 16:49, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I do not know if you all are Armenians arguing with Turks, but it seems that occasionally, as I read your arguments, the point of such a debate is lost. When I was eleven, my grandfather taught me some Armenian words as that is my parentage and I should begin to appreciate it (as you can see you will not be able to read any references with this short paragraph). My great aunt taught me how to make several Armenian dishes and when I was old enough, told me something else... something much different. She told me what she saw as she fled for her life as a child in Armenia when the Turks had invaded her town. With her mother and several other wives, daughters, and infants, she hid in a barn in hopes that the Turks would burn down their homes and leave. They were wrong. She remembers the Turkish soldiers speaking the very language she had feared to hear in such a close vicinity. She remembers an infant crying out and a soldier seizing it from it's mother, tossing the male child in the air and catching it with a pitchfork, murdering the babe. He then set fire to that barn. This, among other recollections my aunt told me ensure that I will never doubt and never stop fighting for the universal recognition of the Armenian Genocide. I cannot site this source, nor can I ask her to repeat these recollections (God rest her soul) but this April 24th at Turlington at UF I will be reading aloud what I did transcribe for anyone to hear so that at least someone may be touched, educated, and know that annihilating a population for whatever purpose is wrong, but doing so and never admitting such an offense is deplorable on a whole new level.-JM

Gee, ever thought of writing a novel? You seem to have a way with words!

Talk pages are for discussing how to improve the content of the related article, to make WP the best it can be. They are not for anything else. -- Jibal 09:36, 14 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well then perhaps the article could include detailed quotes from actual survivors of the genocide. How do you suggest it could be improved? A lot of your comments reveal this desire and yet I can't recall what it is you wish to do to improve the encyclopedia entry. Perhaps an actual account of the event would be helpful...just not in the way you would have wanted. I added the above to remind both sides of the issue that there is a human element to this which must not be ignored. Any other suggestions?72.153.5.197 00:04, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fine - remove the "Turkish position" from the article then - at the very least. It is nothing more then genocide denial. It is poorly written and entirely POV - based on opinion and not fact. It is neither referenced nor supportable and should be treated as symptomatic denial - not history or even a legitimate position. The only proper way to deal with the Turkish denial of what are clearly truthful and scholarly/historical accepted positons are to present their false manipulated position for what it is - a joke and an insult and to treat their offical denial campaign in the manner which it deserves to be treated - with contempt (and certainly presented for what it is). What I have posted on these talk pages supports these contentions. I provide solid evidence for the position that affirms the fact of genocide and the fact that Turks undertook a systematic campaign to eliminate Armenians of the Ottoman Empire/Anatolia and then they deny that such occured - while evidence clearly shows otherwise. Meanwhile Turks comment here offer nothing but unsubstantiated opinion and personal attacks. Yet you people perpetuate this garbage while censoring my contributions. So you want the article to suck it seems. Fine. I would be and am embarrased by this amature piece posing as legitimate information and you should be too. You should be even more embarrassed about how you are supporting Genocide denial and unfactual revisionism and everyone should be embarrased by the extremely low quality of these talk pages in general. I've attempted my best to improve the quality of the discussion here - but obviously it is not appreciated. Truth and accuracy are seemingly secondary considerations in the world of Wiki. Quite pathetic. I will not be regulated to some secondary talk page while no nothing revisionists hold sway in the article and in the discussions. I can find better things to do with my time. --THOTH 01:06, 28 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

you have consistantly provoked the other side with your endless efforts in censorship of anything that even remotely disagrees with your view of events that occured during this tragic part of history. By not accepting the immense suffering of Turks under the hands of the Armenians and the foreign occupiers, you are in fact insluting the memory of these people. This, unfortunately has very much been the position of Armenians and their western supporters, the fact that the value attached to the lives of non christians is far less important. This sickening attitude goes on today, you just have to look at dysfunctional Iraq where hundreds of thousands of civilians have been massacred in what is conveniantly coined as collateral damage. If you had a more open mind and respect for others, maybe this topic would look much better today! If you are going to go back to your whining arguments of how the poor innocent armenians without provocation were massacred, please refrain from doing so because we have danced to the tune so many times already! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.78.105.144 (talk • contribs) 06:44, 28 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Suffering of Turks at the hands of Armenians is not relevant to an article about genocide of Armenians. Please see tu quoque. And everyone should refrain from personal attacks and injections of ideology. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a nationalist battleground. As a general rule, it's a good idea to for editors to stay away from articles that evoke strong emotions in them. -- Jibal 17:00, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

please visit this site to learn more about what you oppose [1] --Hattusili 17:48, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should make another page about the Turkish thesis, to provide neutrality and place links between these two pages. Armenian Genocide (Turkish Thesis) --Hattusili 12:01, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, thats a very bad idea. We call those POV forks. - FrancisTyers 12:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints" but this article does not fairly represent the opposition. We cannot request unprotection for this page because radical nationalists may ruin it all. so what should we do? --Hattusili 13:42, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

One option would be to make a copy of this page in your userspace or in the article space, e.g. Armenian Genocide/Working version edit it and then request that it replace the current page when there is consensus among all reasonable editors on the talk page. - FrancisTyers 14:39, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

you gotta be joking, thats a very bad idea! Adendum 15:02, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please explain why you think it is a bad idea, and what you propose instead. -- Jibal 16:47, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It already exists: Holocaust denial, under Other.

--Eupator 17:04, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Holocaust denial is totally different from what we are argueing here, the Turkish side also have strong evidences about their claims so that an article about Armenian Issue should include their thesis. wikipedia has to be neutral in such issues. --Hattusili 17:30, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Excerpt from the Findings of the United Nations Permenent Peoples Tribunal 1984 - There is no doubt regarding the reality of the physical acts constituting the genocide. The fact of the murder of members of a group, of grave attacks on their physical or mental integrity, and of the subjection of this group to conditions leading necessarily to their deaths, are clearly proven by the full and unequivocal evidence submitted to the Tribunal. The specific intent to destroy the group as such, which is the special characteristic of the crime of genocide, is also established. The reports and documentary evidence supplied point clearly to a policy of methodical extermination of the Armenian people, revealing the specific intent referred to in Article II of the Convention of December 9, 1948. The policy took effect in actions which were attributable beyond dispute to the Turkish or Ottoman authorities, particularly during the massacres of 1915-1917. On the evidence submitted, the Tribunal considers that the various allegations (rebellion, treason, etc.) made by the Turkish government to justify the massacres are without foundation. It is stressed, in any event, that even were such allegations substantiated, they could in no way justify the massacres committed. Genocide is a crime which admits of no grounds for excuse or justification. For these reasons, the Tribunal finds that the charge of genocide of the Armenian people brought against the Turkish authorities is established as to its foundation in fact --THOTH 19:32, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As a side note, an article on Non-Armenian casualties during the Armenian Genocide would probably not fall under the definition of a POV fork. Providing the page did not duplicate information here and was restricted in scope. As far as I'm aware the main Turkish argument is that "lots of people not just Armenians died" so a page explaining that would probably be good. The page could then be linked from here using the {{main}} template. Just a suggestion, feel free to shoot it down... - FrancisTyers 17:57, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Unencyclopedic proposition. It is like starting an entry about 'Non-Jewish casulties during the Holocaust' etc. The reason why the Armenian genocide has it own casulties entry is because the position of an Armenian genocide exist and is more than a fringe. An encyclopedic entry would be 'Ottoman casulties during and after WWI' or something such. Besides, 'during the Armenian Genocide' does not make sense because not much or if any revisionists have placed any 'alone' figure for the period when most Armenians have died. As professor Daniel Panzac an autority in Ottoman history writes, most Muslims died after the period most Armenians have died and that for this reason both casulties are not related. Fad (ix) 18:23, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

what about starting an entry about "Turkish Casualties in Eastern Anatolia in 1915" or "Armenian armed operations and forced emigration" ? I think it can be a fair start. --Hattusili 18:33, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You can have WWI Turkish casualties.--Eupator 18:38, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a section in Wikipedia concerning fiction? If so that is where these laughable Turkish claims belong. There is no support - there are no witnesses - there is no truth in this claim that Anatolian/Ottoman Armenians killed any significant numbers of Turks - and certainly not Turkish civilians - during this period of time. The evidence from eyewitnesses is clear however - that the CUP led Ottoman Turkish government undertook a systematic campaign to cleans Anatolia of its Armenian (and eventually all Christian) elements. This campaign was undertaken under orders of the CUP government using paramilitary and military forces primarily against unarmed civilians who were rounded up and with slaughtered on the spot or led into the desert without access to sufficient food and water - where the intention was to bring about their deaths! There is no Armenian counter to these actions. There was no Armenian military campaign against Turks or Turkish civilians. The few instances of Armenians taking up arms were primarily in defense after they had witnessed massacres of other Armenians and murders of their social and political leaders. There were no significant Armenian revolutionary, gureilla or 5th colomn elements operating against the Turks. There is no evidence other then unsupported Turkich charges which were used as justification for actions taken against Armenians but for which empirical evidence from the time as reported by nuetral eyewitnesses and even by numerous Turkish accounts entirely repudiates. Wikipedia should not be allowed to be used as propoganda for hateful genociders - for those who perpetuate genocide through its denial. None of this would even be remotel;y allowable in a Holocaust article and this article should be no different. --THOTH 19:25, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

oh oh, here goes the merry go round again Don Killuminati 05:31, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You see, I have left this article for near a week I think and thought that things will settle down, but this is not what happened, visit any pages, or the Hereros, or the Khmer Rouge regime, the Holocaust, the Ukrainian famine, the Hereros genocide etc., etc., etc... and tell me if there is at least one other equivalent article that has given as much space or if any members there had as much patience as I had here.

No, no 'Turkish Casualties in Eastern Anatolia in 1915,' and the reason is obvious, very obvious. You can attempt to build a parallel page to this, it won't make it much encyclopedic. Why? Here some reasons why, the Ottoman records were dumping the entire Muslim population, no separation between the groups, in the East, the Kurds, the Circassians, etc... were the majority Muslim population, besides maybe Erzerum or some other places, whos majority Muslim population were Turk I think. Many Muslims died during WWI(millions of Germans died in World War II), but most of Muslim casulties happened starting with mid 1916, when already over 800,000 Armenians have died. Besides, there has been a war between the Arabs and Turks, between Kurdish revolutionaries and Turks, there has been Envers megalomany sending his army on the front to freeze in Winter, or the starving army in the East, and this as a result of the ministry of the war evacuation of the Armenians which deprived the East and amputating the food supply.

So, you see why you can't have a Turkish casulties page? Because Turks were not separated from other Muslims. Also, there was very few Turkish civilian casulties in 1915, Muslim casulties jumped upward in 1916, during which time the Eastern zones Armenian population was gone.

Does the Turkish government section not give enought space for your second proposition? Don't forget that when I have proposed this, there wasn't much space for the Turkish position, you don't expect to have nearly half of the spaces in the main article and another full for the Turkish position, do you? Fad (ix) 19:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

These exerpts from official German reports form very early into the Genocide prove that the Turks were undertaking a campaign of elimination of the Armenians and that there was no military justification for such actions. The Germans made no reports of Armenians carrying out any massacres of Turks during (or prior to) this period. These so-called Turkish contentions are rubbish

1915-04-15-DE-002 - 15 April 1915 - From the Ambassador in Constantinople (Wangenheim) to the Reichskanzler (Bethmann Hollweg) - There only seems to be agreement on one point: that the Armenians have given up their ideas of a revolution since the introduction of the Constitution and that there is no organisation for such a revolt. Without doubt, excesses and acts of terror have taken place against the Armenians in eastern Anatolia and, in general, the events have probably been related correctly by the Armenian side. ...irregulars and bands of marauders organised in military fashion and bearing the title Militia; these are being blamed for numerous plunders, murders, for robbery and other acts committed against the Armenian population of the country...clubs affiliated with the Comité Union et Progrès, in which many dishonest elements are said to be present...in particular the one in Erzerum, have set up formal proscription lists, and a series of political murders which were committed on various respected Armenians since December of last year are attributed to their activities... In two districts of Van formal butcheries took place under the connivance of the Kaymakams... it is emphasised that the Armenians – a fact which, one might note, is contested by the Turks - despite all the suffering they have been subjected to, are behaving loyally and correctly, but at least passively.

1915-05-27-DE-001 - 27 May 1915 - From the Ambassador in Constantinople (Wangenheim) to the Reichskanzler (Bethmann Hollweg) - I have tried to find out on what the attitude of the government to a widespread Armenian conspiracy is based...it would have been fair if, from the Turkish side, proof should be presented of a disloyal attitude or disloyal acts on the part of the same, before punishing the addressees. It appears, however, that this was not regarded as necessary. Also in all other respects, the government seems to have regarded the conspiracy through a magnifying glass. I am convinced that the greater majority of the deportees is suffering innocently.The government also seems to be insisting on the archaic opinion that a whole people must be punished in solidarity for the deeds of an individual or of a few for its punishments extend to the destruction of the Armenians in whole districts. All Armenians with possessions, education or influence are to be removed so that only a leaderless herd is left behind.

1915-06-17-DE-003 - From the Ambassador in Constantinople (Wangenheim) to the Reichskanzler (Bethmann Hollweg) - 17 June 1915 - The expulsion of the Armenian population from their homes in the East Anatolian provinces and their relocation in other areas is being carried out ruthlessly. …In some places there have already been excesses during their march; the Armenians who were deported from Diarbekir to Mossul are said to have all been murdered in the course of their journey...It has come to light that the banishment of the Armenians is not only motivated by military considerations. The Minister of the Interior, Talaat Bey, recently spoke about this without reservation to Dr. Mordtmann, who is currently employed by the Imperial Embassy. He said “that the Porte is intent on taking advantage of the World War in order to clean sweep of internal enemies - the indigenous Christians - without being hindered in doing so by diplomatic intervention from other countries. --THOTH 19:49, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

its not rubbish, whats rubbish is the assumption that what this so called ambassador reports must construe the truth. It certainly wouldnt cross your mind that this individual, and many like him, had a major gripe against the Ottomans for whatever reason and where therefore bent on spreading malicious lies. It belongs to the trash heap in the same category as those religious missionary freaks who were reporting on behalf of the Armenians. Their word can simply not be taken as fact Adendum 12:59, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Uh do you have any proof that they meticulously and intentionally lied? Because I find it rather disturbing that you are calling hundreds of eyewitness to Armenian massacres as either bias or liars. They were secret, coded telegrams that were meant to be read by members of the German political bureaucracy, not to dismantle the precious Ottoman Empire.

I think its your words that hold no water, its easy to assert that.--MarshallBagramyan 20:23, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So you think that its all a conspiracy against the turks? Maybe you should visit a site with pictures. I'm sure photoshop didn't play a part in those. Don't take our word for it-- a picture speaks a thousand words-- and do me a favor and imagine the people in the photos to be turks!!

The basis of the accusations against the Ottomans is a book written by Aram Andonian in 1920, "The Memoirs of Naim Bey: Turkish Official Documents Relating to the Deportations and Massacres of Armenians". Book was published simultaneously in London, Paris and Boston - in English, French and Armenian.It has been proven that these "documents" were fabricated. In one of his forged documents, Mr. Andonian appends a note and signature attributed to Mustafa Abdulhalik Bey, as the Governor of Aleppo while at the time the Governor of Aleppo was Bekir Sami Bey. Also Andonian wasn't able to assign correct dates to documents since at the time Ottoman Empire was using Rumi calendar, which starts at year 622 A.D. and uses the lunar years. Not to mention script or phraseology. These documents include a number of telegrams attributed to Talat Pasha, the Minister of Interior of the Ottoman Government, supposedly found by the British forces under the command of General Allenby, when they captured Aleppo in 1918.

This is for the moderators. Read the Armenian Genocide page carefully. Does anyone check these references? I found this article from Oxford Journals,『Turkish Military Tribunal’s Prosecution of the Authors of the Armenian Genocide: Four Major Court-Martial Series, Genocide Study Project,Spring 1997』Paper itself says they never saw the actual documents quoting from the paper "the actual transcripts still are not available to scholars" and it continues "relying upon other sources". This paper is about trial proceedings. If you don't have access to proceedings what is the basis? How can you refer to something as a proof which itself couldn't refer to any actual document? How can you reference a document which can't say anything beyond 'it is believed that...' Also Reference 17 claims that it is according to the trial proceedings that are referred to as inaccessible in reference 18. I don't think any sane people can trust in this kind of claims that lack professionalism. Also many references point to nothing. It is really hard to track this but giving non-existent references to give an illusion of correctness is just ridiculous.

Armenian documents talk about 'hundreds of eyewitnesses' and convey the information 'on their behalf'. Below is a guy who spoke for himself.

U.S. War Correspondent George Schreiner, an eyewitness to Armenian relocations in 1915, writes: "Of the real causes the world knew nothing, and still knows nothing really worth knowing. The press everywhere had been used to mislead readers, and when the warring governments began to deluge the world with 'colored' books, most of us took their contents to be gospel truth." (The Craft Sinister, 1920, Publisher:New York, G.A. Geyer ) Here by 'colored books' a reference is made to The Blue Book and The Black Book which were products of British Political Intelligence Department responsible for propaganda authored by Toynbee and Bryce. Black Book is about German atrocities in Belgium during WW1 (most people claims that it is WW2 to accuse people of denying the Holocaust while the book was published in 1915 many years before WW2) Black Book is refuted by British government itself. While Blue Book is discredited by its own author in 1922's The Western Question in Greece and Turkey. The colored books are also heavily criticized in Propaganda Techniques in the World War by Harold Laswell (1927) and Falsehood in Wartime by Arthur Ponsonby (1928) as being 'overstated and tool for propaganda'. Blue Book constitues another major basis of Armenian point of view.

Whoever wants to see picture showing the status of Turkish army in 1915 can check the following link. If a nation didn't have resources to support its own army, how could you expect them to take good care of people being deported. A picture of Turkish soldiers, 1915 Gallipoli defense http://itss.org/mehmetcik1915.jpg

TOTH should read more history. "There is no Armenian counter to these actions. There was no Armenian military campaign against Turks or Turkish civilians." And YOU're accusing people of denying, huh? This is the most explicit form of denying. Turks don't deny losses or say nothing happened. They talk about the part of history that you don't care to read about or that you're denying. That's why when PBS wants to show a discussion about this, or a 20 minute program about Turkish point of view, they were made to cancel by threats and protests. If there are no secrets and if everyone is so sure about correctness of their claim, why avoid discussion? Discuss and win the discussion in front of everyone so nobody can question your point again.

Finally, i have decided to add my comments.What a shame that you armenians are trying to show it had been happened to you what you have done against Turks only for money and land request.

By the way, armenian genocide was not recognized by the slandered government.So this propaganda article is illegal...Inanna 19:32, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

please, assume good faith. and don't share your emotions with us. noone needs them. thanks --tasc 19:50, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is the discussion page...Inanna 20:00, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

but this is not a soapbox. --tasc 20:01, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What's soapbox? Everybody has right to know the trues...Inanna 20:06, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a soapbox --tasc 20:09, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It says "articles".I can say whatever i want in discussion page.It's propaganda while we are talking but it's not while you are? Please be fair. Inanna 20:17, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please see Help:Talk page: The purpose of a talk page is to help to improve the contents of the article in question....Wikipedians generally oppose the use of talk pages just for the purpose of partisan talk about the main subject. Wikipedia is not a soapbox; it's an encyclopedia. In other words, talk about the article, not about the subject. It's only the habits we encourage that keep Wikipedia from turning into a slanging match. See also: Wikiquette -- Jibal 09:44, 14 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There are two types of Armenians in the world.One of them are "Eastern Armenians" who lives in armenia,georgia,azerbaijan,iran and most in russia.Another group is "Western Armenians" who lived in Ottoman Empire(eastern anatolia) and the armenians who spread to world from here(diaspora in USA,France,...etc).Center of western armenians was Istanbul and center of eastern armenians was Tbilisi until before 1900's.Both society has specific diffrences(such as language, education level, income difference).

Let's look at the (western)armenian population at the region:

Ottoman census statistics for 1893: 1.001.465

Ottoman census statistics for 1906: 1.120.748

Ottoman census statistics for 1914: 1.221.850

It really needs ability to kill 250,000 people who has never lived(!) Inanna 20:17, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Inanna, from our last accounter, if you remember correctly, you have thrown racistic slurs and as a result I have decided to ignore you, which if you don't mind I will be doing again too. Until you stop with your ultranationalist racistic trash I will ignore you. BTW, there is already an article about Ottoman Armenian population. Ottoman Armenian Population

I cannot see any racism here and i don't mind whether you ignore me or not.Mine is Ottoman Census, not exaggerated numbers of an Armenian nationalist...Inanna 21:38, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What a shame that you armenians are trying to show it had been happened to you what you have done against Turks only for money and land request.

This added with the trash you already spewed on your userpage as an answer to my friendly question, is indeed racism. It is a matter of fact that this article often recieve the visit of trouble makers that discuss about things that have nothing to do with it. There are no claiming specific number of deaths in this entry, there are two other entries one about the Ottoman Armenian population which present every sources including the Ottoman statistics, and another entry about the Armenian deaths which also provides the different sources.

I(we) want proof about armenian genocide.We offered armenia to found a common commission about that but they strongly refused.Why? Do they afraid something? Whatever...

Western Armenian Population in The World:

• United States 1,400,000
• Russia 700,000
• France 450,000
• Lebanon 234,000
• Armenia 200,000
• Syria 150,000
• Argentina 130,000
• Turkey 95,000(included Hamshenis)
• Poland 92,000
• Jordan 52,000
• Germany 42,000
• Canada 41,000
• Brazil 40,000
• Australia 35,000
• Bulgaria 30,000
• Iraq 20,000
• Greece 20,000
• Uruguay 19,000
• United Kingdom 18,000
• Hungary 15,000
• Belgium 10,000
• Czech Republic 10,000
• Yugoslavia 10,000
• Rest of the world 77,000

• Total 4,000,000

Source: [2]

If Turks have killed all of the armenians so who are those 4 million armenians although very few population growth rate of armenians????? Inanna 23:10, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The next time you post unrelated stuff in the talkpage, I will delete it. Discuss what is in the article and not what is not. But just for your information, before WW1 there was about 4.2 million Armenians in the world, today there is 7.5 million. Before WWI there was from 6 to 8 million Turks in the Empire, now we have over 50 million Turks. There has been various statistics of Armenian population after WWI to present and they do match with an Ottoman Armenian losses of over a million, the figures of todays Armenian population do support the figures of losses. Everytime a revisionist use them, without knowing they are shouting on

their own feet, Fad (ix) 00:46, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Question? Armenians in Ottoman Empire are referred to as minority. Doesn't your 6-8 million Turks population with the claim that about a million Armenians being killed (add the ones that survived the deportation and the ones not harmed) conflict with definition of minority?

Total population before WW1 for the empire (not only Asia Minor) is 12 million. This 12 million includes many different ethnicities Turks, Kurds having the highest population. There's not enough room for everyone in this figure if you assume Armenian population is that high.

sinsi:: According to the ottoman archives the armenian population in 1911 is given as 1020881 http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/belge.asp?kitap=25&belge=27#secili This example is in arabic alphabet with a turkish translation. The armenian claim of 1.5 million loss would leave minus 500000 people, if this certain document is true. Of course there is a range of estimates but throwing numbers like four million will not improve this discussion. Please give sources otherwise do not talk about numbers

Why are we discussing things that happened a century ago??I am a Turk and I have lots of friends who are Armenian.We shouldn't care things like this.Come on!--Onurkaryagmaz--

So - let me try to clarify what you are saying - your position is that everything over 100 years ago or that happened over 100 years ago should be forgotten. Is this it? Or are you saying that we might remember - but we shouldn't care? Live for today sort of thing...Your position is rather unclear I have to say. Not that it matters much really - as I (and others) obviously feel differently - and certainly unless you expalian why your position should be taken up by all I really can't imagine anyone doing anything but ignoring or ridiculing such. My guess is that you probably haven't a clue of what it is we are even discussing here...or perhaps you do but wish to avoid the shame of it or you are ashamed and don't wish to be reminded or perhaps you are callous and just don't care? Or maybe you are hyper nationalistic and just can't stand the thought that any Turks or group of Turks may have done wrong - if even in the past..and your statement is more of a diversion. Though perhaps you really just don't know anything (like you imply)...and have no wish to know...and can't understand why others would care to know or value that they do. If this is the case can I ask you - just why are you consulting an Encyclopedia in the first place? And why did you click on or search for the subject - Armenian Genocide? (if it is such an ancient thing to you...though perhaps it is not ancient - perhaps it is still occuring today eh? maybe that is why you and other's care...ever think of that?) But if it is your position that you don't care - why bother? Well some of us do care - can you at least respect that? ...even if you don't understand why we might? Ask one of your many Armenian friends...perhaps they will enlighten you at least why they might care...--THOTH 23:02, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well let me perhaps enlighten you on the message of the previous anon, maybe you can learn something from this? The message is the following: If you want to dwell and get stuck in the past, please be my guest, you will be the only loser around (although I believe that point has already been reached). Like Thomas Friedman said in his latest book: those countries that dwell in the past and cling to memories will remain backwards whilst those that look ahead and embrace the future and the flattening of the world will enjoy tremendous progress! 81.213.178.166 06:20, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I should explain why I said that. What will you gain when you convince the others? Do you think I don't care people who are dead. I am full with respect to them. But arguing about this subject won't bring anything but forgetting it will help your friendship with the others.I am not ashamed because I think there is nothing to be ashamed of. I believe that Armenians killed Turks and Turks killed Armenians. This is an ashame that we are killing each other. How many Turk friends you have? You will understand me when you get Turkish friends.--Onurkaryagmaz--

The question "Why are we discussing things ..." is quite out of place here. This is a page for discussing how to improve a specific Wikipedia article. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Encyclopedias discuss all sorts of things, and how long ago they happened isn't relevant. Among other things, an encyclopedia documents human culture -- all of it, good and bad. The goal is to provide comprehensive information -- for the whole human community. No page, including this one, is aimed only at Turks and Armenians, and Wikipedia is expressly not intended as a forum for political debates and nationalistic squabbling. WP articles are intended to inform, not to produce shame. The nationality and ethnicity of WP contributors and their friends is irrelevant. Personally, I think it's shameful the way people abuse Wikipedia and ignore its purpose and policies. Please see The five pillars of Wikipedia -- Jibal 09:36, 14 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Armenian Genocide

An Interview with Andrew Goldberg

By Khatchig Mouradian

March 23, 2006

On April 17, 2006, PBS will air a powerful documentary, titled “The Armenian Genocide,” which deals with the massacres and deportations of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire in 1915. The documentary, written, directed and produced by Emmy Award-winning producer Andrew Goldberg, features interviews with leading genocide scholars and is narrated by Julianna Margulies as well as Ed Harris, Natalie Portman, Laura Linney and Orlando Bloom, among others.

Filmed in the US, France, Germany, Belgium, Syria, and Turkey, the one-hour documentary also features discussions with Kurdish and Turkish citizens in modern-day Turkey.

Andrew Goldberg of Two Cats Productions (www.twocatstv.com) has produced and directed documentaries, news segments and long-form programming for PBS, NBC, E!, Inside Edition, ABC News and many others. His documentaries include “Armenians, A Story of Survival” (2001) and “A Yiddish World Remembered” (2002).

The following phone interview was conducted on March 10, 2006.

Khatchig Mouradian -Why did you decide to make a documentary on the Armenian genocide?

Andrew Goldberg- The Armenian Genocide is one of the most underreported stories of the 20th century. Every time there is an attempt to raise this issue, there are those who try to stop the discussion. I wanted to get this important subject discussed. I am glad we succeeded.

KM- The title of the documentary is enough to make the Turkish government and other genocide deniers try to stop the discussion this time around as well, even without bothering to see the documentary, isn’t it?

AG- As I have previously stated, I did not use the title “The Armenian Genocide” to be provocative. However, if you don’t use the word “genocide,” you are enabling denial. It’s not that we must use the word “genocide”; it’s only that we cannot allow people to stop us from using the word. The term “genocide” did not exist for years, but the mass killings of the Armenians were denied back then as well. We could call it anything and the people who want to stop the truth would still deny it. We are using the term “genocide” because it’s the only word in the current language to properly describe this event. The mass murder of the Armenian people has been denied for nearly a hundred years; I won’t be a part of that denial no matter what.

KM- The documentary also gives an opportunity to deniers of the Armenian genocide to express their views and tell what they consider to be “the other side” of the story. What is your comment on that?

AG- Denial can be looked at, but it must be looked at in a controlled, quarantined situation. If you quarantine denial, contextualize it, and explain to people that what they now are seeing is denial, then you are shielded from the virus of denial and it doesn’t cause damage. While we do present in the film the points of view of deniers, I wouldn’t call it “the other side,” because there is no other side. People do not understand just how committed the denialists are to distorting the story. People need to understand the monster. That’s why we chose to show what they had to say.

KM- In the documentary, columnist and retired Turkish diplomat Gunduz Aktan says, “The Turkish people firmly believe that what happened to the Armenian people was not genocide.” Tell us about your impressions of how the Turkish people approach the Armenian issue.

AG – First of all, they approach it differently on camera than they do off camera. I’ll give you an example not related to the genocide. If you speak to the Hamshen, they will say to you, “We are Armenians,” but when you point the camera at them, they say “We are Turkish.” Turkey is not a nation of free speech, although it may present itself as such. Therefore, there’s a double dialogue in Turkey. There’s a dialogue that you see presented publicly, and then there’s a dialogue behind closed doors. There is an increasing number of people in Turkey who do believe it was genocide; however, they would not say this publicly.

KM- The main challenge of addressing a historical event by film would be making it related to the here and now. Was this the case with “The Armenian genocide”?

AG- I believe that this is an event that started 91 years ago and is not over. Denial is the final stage of genocide. Therefore, it’s a current event. Besides, we address many contemporary issues in the film, such as the recent ruling in Turkey that they would teach the students that there was no genocide. This is incredible; believing is one thing, but teaching it in the state curriculum is another thing. We did not take on news issues like Orhan Pamuk because you don’t know how they are going to turn out and when they turn out one way or another, the film immediately becomes old. This documentary is not a news piece; it’s a piece that has to have some shelf-life. This is more of an issue piece than a news piece.

KM- Tell us a bit of this all-star cast of narrators.

AG- I worked with Aleen Keshishian who is a wonderful and extremely accomplished Talent Manager in Hollywood. We worked together in picking the narrators, and every one of them donated their services. Every single one of them did it for free, because they cared deeply about the cause. We have a wonderful cast of talented people and we are very proud of them.

KM- What is the message that you want to convey to the public with “The Armenian genocide”?

AD- What happened to the Armenians is one of the most inhumane acts in the history of the human race. The victims of that event and their children have never been acknowledged and affirmed, and it is important that we, as non-Armenians and Armenians, affirm and acknowledge this tragedy, and send a clear message to those attempting to deny this tragedy that we will not allow their position to make progress into this international conversation.

I believethat his position is one that the editors and others involved in producing this article on the Armenian Genocide here in Wikipedia need to take heed. The Armenian Genocide is not only history - it is a current event. The denial - that we witness here and elsewhere - is part of the continuing act of Genocide against the Armenian people who were once of Anatolia. This fact must be highlighted in any article concerning the Armenian Genocide. The facts of the ever changing Turkish ongoing denials and tactics of denial must be hightlighted in the articel or in a related article. This is most important. And it is just as important to not allow the denial to be presented just as "an opposing view" that has any validitiy whatsoever except as it can be seen as a denial of truth and a biased and untrue revision of history. --THOTH 16:56, 16 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Goldberg? JAAS (Just Another Armenian Stooge). He produced something earlier so in fact I stand corrected, the correct term is JASAS (Just Another Serial Armenian Stooge) and FYI Portman is a right wing Israeli who hates Palestinians, she said it herself!

I have come to a point where i can finally enter in some input into this matter i am not an historian i am not a politician i am not an anarchist and i am not an injust person. i am just a boy yet this topic is becoming filled to the brim with evidence and so on and so fourth it has been 91 years since these events occured and during that state of 91 years many countries have acknowledged the genocide ( dont ask me i dont know ) i mean cmon we all agree upon genocide being inhumane and injust yet we get racism from the comment on top of mine (JAAS) wow. and if you think portman is racist your being quite ironic commenting on somebody racist right after making a racist remark, real stylish. I have only one thing to say Armenians you shouldnt be angry at turks in general there are many turks that admit to the geoncide i have many turkish friends that admit to it and have no problem with it i myself am armenian and it may suprise you that i have turkish friends. but its true i eat kebabs and all that and i dont withdraw my self from learning a few word, however my condemnation is to the ataturk movement and the old ottoman government, well frankly the government right now aswell. I admit some turks were killed i mean what did u expect people to give up without a fight and just let there home be burried. but still denial is hard on such a topic considering one nation has stood there ground on the matter for 91 years and new movements such as the you atataturk movement are coming to light now. im not injust but i cannot shed light on what the turks believe considering i dont know and i am pleaing to any one commenting make sure you know what your talking about before you post. because your just making waves for no reason and please be gentle over the topic after all we are dealing with the dead

I have been researching this Genocide for weeks for a college project and I've seen from the research that there is way too much evidence for the genocide. Turks cannot truthfully say there wasn't a genocide. It happened, DEAL WITH IT, the wikipedia page should stay how it is.

Oh ok I get it, if you question or, God forbid oppose the genocide thesis you are accused of being a racist! Do you know the meaning of the word stooge? Look it up because its the first time I hear that the word has anything to do with racism. And you know what? I thank God every day for giving us Ataturk because if it was not for him, there would be no present day Turkey and your remarks baffle me because its a well established fact that he had nothing to do with the massacres that took place towards the end of the Ottoman empire. You should read a bit more history before making silly remaks because it only highlights your total ignorance on the subject matter. But maybe it is that you are brainwashed by the Armenian propaganda rubbish that is being fed to you like gripe water to quel your colic self in which case you could be excused. I do have a pertinant question for you though, do you ask the kebab guy if he agrees with the genocide thesis before ordering? Oh and coming back to the Goldberg documentary, did you know that the project was almost completely funded by Armenians? Says a lot about being objective on the matter, dont you think? 83.76.136.62 17:19, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You've carved a wooden horse

riding and calling it real

fooling yourself in life

though only a wooden horse

ride it again my friend

and gallop to the next post...

Rumi

neurobio 23:23, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not cite poetry here, it is a misuse of the talk page. El_C 01:08, 8 June 2006 (UTC

Please check the web site below.

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/index.html

Why there is no link for this web site? Is it because you didn't like the written things?

Please also check the photos in album!!

Also read following articles!

MASSACRES OF THE TURKS BY THE ARMENIANS

• An Overall Assessment
• Cavusoglu Barnyard
• Mass-Graves in Kars - Subatan
• Mass-Grave in Van - Zeve
• Mass-Grave in Erzurum-Dumlu-Yesilyayla Village
• Mass-Grave in Igdir - Oba Village
• Igdir Genocide Monument And Museum
• The Lists
• Massacres in Azerbaijan
• Armenian Atrocities Against Their Own Nationals
• Eye Withess Accounts

And check killed turkish diplomats.. user:onur

That's a propaganda website, which exists solely to push a certain point of view, and therefore is not a reliable source. --InShaneee 17:14, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

oh yeah? what isthis if not a propaganda site against Turks? And yet it is listed in the section on websites that support the genocide thesis! lutherian 07:58, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Can you give an example? Which sentence? Which photo? user:onur

THESE ARE REFERENCES!! Each article have references. if you check you will see.

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ŞİMŞİR, Bilâl N.-, Osmanlı Ermenileri, Bilgi Yayınevi, Ankara 1986.

ŞİMŞİR, Bilal N.-, Şehit Diplomatlarımız, 2 Cilt, Bilgi Yayınevi, Ankara 2000.

ŞİMŞİR, Bilâl N.-, The Genesis of the Armenian Question, Turkish Historical Society, Ankara 1982

SOLMAZ, Gürsoy-, Yaşayanların Dilinden Erzurum-Sarıkamış-Kars'ta Ermeni Zulmü (1918-1920), Yüzüncü Yıl Üniversitesi Yayınları, Van 1995.

SONYEL, Salâhi R.-, Armenian Terrorism: A Menace to the International Community, Cyprus Turkish Association Publications, London 1987.

SONYEL, Salâhi R.-, Hornus-Sonyel correspondance on the Armenian Question, Cyprus Turkish Association Publications, London 1983.

SONYEL, Salâhi R.-, The Ottoman Armenians: Victims of Great Power Diplomacy, Published by K.Rustem & Brother, London 1987.

SÜSLÜ, Azmi (Der.)-, Ruslara Göre Ermenilerin Türklere Yaptıkları Mezalim, A.Ü. Türk İnkılâp Tarihi Enstitüsü, Ankara 1987.

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SÜSLÜ, A., F. Kırzıoğlu, R. Yinanç, Y. Halaçoğlu-, Türk Tarihinde Ermeniler, Kars Kafkas Üniversitesi Rektörlüğü Yayınları, Ankara 1995.

SÜSLÜ, Azmi-, Russian View on the Atrocities Commited by the Armenians Against the Turks, KÖK Yayınları, Ankara 1991.

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By the way the Armenian rebels were a small group no way in hell they killed more than a million people, all those excavations are most likely to be Armenian, Assyrian or Greek since most towns and cities you stated were overall 90% Armenian in those days, there is no physical proof that the Armenians killed them therefore it is a myth by your government. Nareklm 22:17, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There has been raised the issue of intent in regard to the Genocide of Armenians – as well as charges that Ottoman Armenians were in rebellion or were acting in some significant military way counter to the Ottoman Government. These issues were all examined by the UN Permanent Peoples Tribunal in 1984 and here is a relevant excerpt (material to the counter-charges and claims made by various Turks on these talk pages) of their verdict – United Nations Permanent Peoples' Tribunal - April 16, 1984 - Verdict of the Tribunal – (excerpt) - A revolutionary movement began to develop within the Armenian community (Dashnak and Hunchak parties). Following the Sasun insurrection in 1894, approximately 300,000 Armenians were massacred in the eastern provinces and in Constantinople on the orders of Sultan Abdul Hamid. Protests by the Powers led to more promises of reforms which, again, were never kept; the guerilla ('fedayis') struggle continued. From the turn of the century onward, Armenian revolutionaries also began to cooperate with the Young Turk party in the definition of a federalist plan for the Empire. Following the hopes generated by the constitutional revolution of 1908 Young Turk ideology, under pressure of the exercise of power and external events as well as from the radical wing of the movement, began to develop toward a form of exclusive nationalism which found expression in Pan-Turkism and Turanism. At the Eighth Congress of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation at Erzerum in August 1914, the Dashnak party rejected Young Turk requests to engage in subversive action among the Russian Armenians. From the beginning of the war, the Turkish Armenians behaved in general as loyal subjects, signing up with the Turkish army. The Russian Armenians, on their side, were routinely conscripted into the Russian Army and sent to fight on the European fronts. … Beginning in January 1915, Armenians soldiers and gendarmes were disarmed, regrouped in work brigades of 500 to 1,000 men, put to work on road maintenance or as porters, then taken by stages to remote areas and executed. It was not until April that the implementation of a plan began, with successive phases carried out in a disciplined sequence. The signal was first given for deportation to begin in Zeytun in early April, in an area of no immediate strategic importance. It was not until later that deportation measures were extended to the border provinces. The pretext used to make the deportation a general measure was supplied by the resistance of the Armenians of Van. The vali of Van, Jevdet, sacked outlying Armenian villages and the Van Armenians organized the self-defense of the city. When the news of the Van revolt reached Constantinople, the Union and Progress (Ittihad) Committee seized the opportunity. Some 650 personalities, writers, poets, lawyers, doctors, priests and politicians were imprisoned on April 24th and 25th, 1915, then deported and murdered in the succeeding months. Thus was carried out what was practically the thorough and deliberate elimination of almost the entire Armenian intelligentsia of the time. From April 24 onwards, and following a precise timetable, the government issued orders to deport the Armenians from the eastern vilayets. The execution of the plan was entrusted to a 'special organization' (SO), made up of common criminals and convicts trained and equipped by the Union and Progress Committee. This semi-official organization, led by Behaeddin Shakir, was under the sole authority of the Ittihad Central Committee. Constantinople issued directives to the valis, kaymakans, as well as local SO men, who had discretionary powers to have moved or dismissed any uncooperative gendarme or official. The methods used, the order in which towns were evacuated, and the routes chosen for the columns of deportees all confirm the existence of a centralized point of command controlling the unfolding of the program. From May to July 1915, the eastern provinces were sacked and looted by Turkish soldiers and gendarmes, SO gangs ('chetes'), etc. This robbery, looting, torture, and murder were tolerated or encouraged while any offer of protection to the Armenians was severely punished by the Turkish authorities. It was not possible to keep the operation secret. Alerted by missionaries and consuls, the Entente Powers enjoined the Turkish government, from May 24, to put an end to the massacres, for which they held members of the government personally responsible. Turkey made the deportation official by issuing a decree, claiming treason, sabotage, and terrorist acts on the part of the Armenians as a pretext. Deportation was in fact only a disguised form of extermination. At the end of July 1915, the government began to deport the Armenians of Anatolia and Cilicia, transferring the population from regions which were far distant from the front and where the presence of Armenians could not be regarded as a threat to the Turkish army. The deportees were driven south in columns which were decimated en route. From Aleppo, survivors were sent on toward the deserts of Syria in the south and of Mesopotamia in the southeast. In Syria, reassembly camps were set up at Hama, Homs, and near Damascus. Between March and August 1916, orders came from Constantinople to liquidate the last survivors remaining in the camps along the railway and the banks of the Euphrates. In Eastern Anatolia, the entire Armenian population had disappeared. … The Tribunal considers that the facts presented above are established on the basis of substantial and concordant evidence. This evidence has been produced and analyzed in the various reports heard by the Tribunal, to which numerous documents have been submitted. … The refusal of the Turkish government to recognize the genocide of the Armenians is based essentially on the following arguments: lower estimate of death toll; responsibility of Armenian revolutionaries; counter-accusations; denial of premeditation. There is no doubt regarding the reality of the physical acts constituting the genocide. The specific intent to destroy the group as such, which is the special characteristic of the crime of genocide, is also established. The reports and documentary evidence supplied point clearly to a policy of methodical extermination of the Armenian people, revealing the specific intent referred to in Article II of the Convention of December 9, 1948. The policy took effect in actions which were attributable beyond dispute to the Turkish or Ottoman authorities, particularly during the massacres of 1915-1917. The Tribunal notes on the one hand, however, that in addition to the atrocities committed by the official authorities, the latter also used malicious propaganda and other means to encourage civilian populations to commit acts of genocide against the Armenians. It is further observed that the authorities generally refrained from intervening to prevent the slaughter, although they had the power to do so, or from punishing the culprits, with the exception of the trial of the Unionists. This attitude amounts to incitement to crime and to criminal negligence, and must be judged as severely as the crimes actively committed and specifically covered by the law against genocide. On the evidence submitted, the Tribunal considers that the various allegations (rebellion, treason, etc.) made by the Turkish government to justify the massacres are without foundation. It is stressed, in any event, that even were such allegations substantiated, they could in no way justify the massacres committed. Genocide is a crime which admits of no grounds for excuse or justification. For these reasons, the Tribunal finds that the charge of genocide of the Armenian people brought against the Turkish authorities is established as to its foundation in fact. http://www.armenian-genocide.org/Affirmation.66/current_category.5/affirmation_detail.html --THOTH 23:48, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

you know what? for a monent I believed that! but google is there for people who are willing to learn. ok I will stay calm. I am talking about a real international Court. Not this self declared mupet show. [[3]]. I hope you did not do that mistake intentionaly (i gues you are just fooled by Armenian propaganda sites). I repeat Peoples tribunal is not formed by UN. it is a organ of Lelio Basso international foundation. it is just a NGO not an international court. They have done this pathetic show AT THE SORBONNE, PARIS FRANCE, APRIL 13-16, 1984 and there wasnt a single Turkish soul there. [[4]] it was not a court the "verdict" was given in 3 days (for a matter which has not been resolved for 90 years) which means that they already found the defendant guilty. oh sorry the defendant was not there. Anyway it is useles to comment on this circus. like the Turkish saying puts it "they play for themselves, and they dance for themselves". and lets see how this NGOV published its "neutral" "verdict". (A Crime of Silence, The Armenian Genocide: Permanent Peoples' Tribunal. Pierre Vidal-Naquet, preface, Gerard Libaridian, editor. London: Zed Books Ltd., 1985. French edition edited by Gerard Chaliand in collaboration with Claire Mouradian and Alice Aslanian-Samuelian. Paris: Flammarion, 1984.). Rather pathetic for a independent NGOV which fights for human rights. I am telling you again if you have money and strong lobbies it is not hard to have such shows. You cant go to a real international court instead you make this shows to feel great. Oh How much they wish the real int. court can come up with this verdict but it wont! thats why Armenians are not doing the first thing that they should do. instead they spread propaganda. If you can get a verdict from an int court Turkey has nothing to do but accept then you can get good money from these deniers. This one is as valid as our students verdict in our university where they sentenced Bush for his war crimes.neurobio 01:04, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some reasons why you can’t go to an international court. You may think that these are fabrications but big bosses in the Diaspora know very well that they are indeed true that is why they by pass the easiest way for a recognition of the so called genocide. If you spend a life time reading only biased sources you may end up very disappointed.

The number of Muslims committed to the guards of Armenians and massacred by them after being inflicted physical pains upon and struck by the butt of rifles reached 30.000; the Armenians serving in the Ottoman army were deserting and deliberately surrendering to Russians to disclose information about the said army;

19 R. 1333 (6. III. 1915) from ottoman archives

"When the Armenian volunteers taking the stolen spoils, the Russian soldiers trying to hinder them was shot by the Armenians. Moreover, the volunteers are plundering continuously and find pleasure in any kind of committing murder. In order (to) end these murders, a Council of War was established in Van. In addition, to prevent these crimes, it was deemed necessary to form the unities of discipline."

TELEGRAPH OF RUSSIAN GENERAL NIKOLAYEF TO CAUCASIAN ARMY COMMANDER

"I know from reports of my own officers who served with General Dro that defenseless villages were bombarded and then occupied, and any inhabitants that had not run away were brutally killed, the village pillaged, and all the livestock confiscated, and then the village burned. This was carried out as a regular systematic getting-rid-of the Muslims."

Ambassador Mark Bristol

In these days the Armenians were perpetrating indescribably cruel murders among the poor Turkish inhabitants of the neighborhood of Erzindjan; the Turks were unarmed and without any means of self-defense. On hearing that the Turkish troops were approaching, the Armenians, committing fresh crimes, fled in the direction of Erzerum.

According to the reports of the Commander-in-Chief, confirmed by officers who were actually present at the scene of the crime, the Armenians slew more than 800 Turks in Erzindjan, and so avenged one of their miserable accomplices who had been killed by a Turk in justified self-defense. Furthermore, the Armenians massacred the unhappy Mohammedan population of Ilidja, in the neighborhood of Erzerum, without sparing the women and children.

TELEGRAPH OF RUSSIAN GENERAL NIKOLAYEF TO CAUCASIAN ARMY COMMANDER

This is about your national hero Antranik

"I arrived in Bayburt on August 8, 1917. What I saw was terrifying. Armenians under the Russian administration were committing horrifying, wild atrocities against Turks in Bayburt and Ispir. The rebels named Arshak and Antranik, slaughtered the children in the orphanage I worked at with their daggers. They raped young girls and women. They took away 150 children with them while they were withdrawing from Bayburt and killed most of them while they were still on the way." Red Cross Attendant Tatiana Karameli, student of Russian Medicine School, serving at Russian Red Cross 1917-18, memoirs. neurobio 01:45, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Neuro, you're just quoting lines from Turkish websites which obviously deny the Genocide and especially that unabashed racist Holdwater. Find some sources from other books and places. These two entities, especially that idiot Holdwater, MAKE UP SOURCES. Numerous times I have courted Holdwater on discrepancies on his quotes, on falsified quotes, on fake books that don't even exist and he has never been able to answer back to them.

You're honestly quoting Admiral Bristol as a source? The same racist man who equated Armenians and Jews as "parasites"? Get some more realistic sources. You do know that even Admiral Bristol acknowledged that the Armenians were being massacred en masse and said that it was because the Turks were more numerically powerful and the Armenians were just weak? Admiral Bristol was obviously promoting the Untied States' policy of pro-oil Turkey, obviously he would never make any disparaging comments on Turkey itself and blame Armenians. He's not even an eyewitness, his testimony is pure hearsay ("I heard from my officers"? he was a US ambassador not a sailor in the navy [where is the ocean his men were serving on]---quote is made up!)Check back on your sources and quit being so damn gullible on everything you find on TurkiyeCumhurriet.com. How patheticlly desperate these people become.--MarshallBagramyan 16:50, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please refer to the pictures I uploaded below. I am sure they will be deleted soon because they are the PROOF of a CLEAR FORGERY. Also I dont know how to link them directly. If someone can do that, that would be appreciated.

I am not presenting any comment since the pictures speak for themselves. I also recommend that we put these as a proof of Armenian propaganda to the article. I think it clearly gives an idea. File:Apotheosis-of-War-big.jpg

--Sokrateskerem 04:29, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a secret that Armenians forged and are forging documents and photos... Thanks for reminding that to the audience. Off course they are the victims and we are the bad people right, so who would believe their forgery? At least the truth is out there. --Gokhan 04:41, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That image on the book is clearly an illustration, not a photograpgh. Its a direct facsimile, which can hardly be called something that was "forged". To call this an example of "Armenian forgeries" doesn't make sense because it doesn't illustrate what was forged. Check back on the dust cover of that book and you'll most probably find the picture credited to the Russian artist. And I get a great kick out of how the publication is described as a falsification and goes on to practically show that talaat Pasha was just an innocent bystander who got caught up in the events of 1915. Whitewash.--204.102.210.1 19:06, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Either way, showing that one image has been forged does not mean that all images have been forged, nor does it mean that all of the claims about the events have been forged. --InShaneee 19:07, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That image is clearly an illustration ? How can you verify that ? I am REALLY SURE it is an illustration. And people do that right ? When they think about something evil, they put an image of a skull pile , especially when talking about a `FALSE` genocide lie. It is very well known that, SOME Armenians ( I know true Armenians, who try to ignore these issues when they see a Turkish friend, because they dont care like their deceitful compatriots. These are my friends, some of you will get mad, even deny that! pathetic...) FORGED and FORGE documents like this. In black and white background it really didnt seem like an illustration. You can check back the dust only to see forgery. Of course they did not even mention that it was a painting, let alone the artists name. \

Response to Whitewash : 1. ) I cannot see how you linked these photos to the innocence of Talat Pasa. It says nothing about him. Maybe you want him to be blamed so much that you cant even stand seeing him by a forged Armenian document.

2.) I do not know your spoken English level, or about your eyes` accuracy but if you read the script written under the so-called photograph explains the forgery with references. So please, try to keep up even if it`s hard.

Response to InShanee : 2. ) Noone said that all images have been forged. Why do you feel so defensive ? This is a forgery and it is one aspect of my fellow Armenians propaganda. And IT Must BE INCLUDED in the article. People must see it

--Sokrateskerem 20:25, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, it must not. It's POV and demonstrates nothing of relevance. --InShaneee 20:33, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

He means that juxtaposing the illustration next to Talaat doesn't represent a forgery. That painting is quite famous, it would be rather dumb to pass it off as a photograph won't it? The picture is used as an analogy rather than a historical photograph that was taken during the Genocide.--MarshallBagramyan 21:18, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I recently came across to this.

Sarkisyan argues that the Jews encouraged the Ottoman Turks to commit genocide against Armenians. Sarkisyan continues:

“Talat Pasha was a Jewish. They made Turks and Armenians hostile. Turks would not have committed genocide. But all of the Jon Turks (Young Turks) were Jewish”.

what do you think abut this? not as a part of our debete but I really want to learn. It is common knowledge that almost all young turks are jew what do you think about it? is it a general understanding or this man is just a radical soul.neurobio 23:25, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Check here Donmeh.--MarshallBagramyan 00:39, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Talat Pasha was not Jewsish and neither were any substansial portion of te Young Turks. While most of the Toung Turk ideologues and such came from areas outside of Anatolia proper and many would only nominaly be considered Turkish in the strict sense - the important thing is that they were Turkish Nationalists - not what particular ethnicity they were. Talat went to a Jewish school growing up - not surprising since Salonkia where he grew up was known for a high population of Jews and Domneh (former Jews who had converted to Islam). The Solonkia connection is the source of these charges of Talat and other Young Turks (and even Ataturk) being Jewish - however aside from a few members - such as Tenkin Alp (Moishe Cohen) - very few Young Turks were actually Jewish and this supposed Jewish connection is entirely a non-issue. Djemal attempted to "deport" Jews from Palestein and massacre them (until he was stopped by the Germans of all people) - and some Jews were killed. Likewise the Young Turks discussed/debated taking the exact same measures against the Jews as they ultimatly did against the Armenians at their party congreesses prior to the war...--THOTH 20:54, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Can I ask where you got the "Jewish" deportation excerpt from Thoth?--MarshallBagramyan 03:50, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am not at my home at the moment and won't be for a time - however I have numerous sources that report these discussions among the CUP leadership as well as documentation of Djemal's efforts to massacre and deport Jews and the German consternation over this (bad publicity & giving more imetus for Jews to rally to the British). I can pass on these references when I get back. --THOTH 13:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

LOL for some reason I picture you in eastern anatolia with a spade frantically looking for proof to support your thesis! lutherian 14:20, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

maybe you should have read my previous comments before you writing this. come to my talk page if you want to talk.neurobio 00:31, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

LOL, who is this guy? lutherian 05:16, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a fiction article - please refrain from posting ignorant and entirely ficticious claims that have absolutly nothing to do with reality.--THOTH 20:55, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry but your comments and personal attacks against me have no credibility nor basis. You have no clue regarding my background and my understandings of the various "pains" and situations of peoples of thsi period. I would be more then willing to discuss/intorduce such factually and in the proper context - however I have yet to see the Armenian Genocide denialist camp do so. I suspect that most - like yourself - who introduce such really don't much understand the true history but are only parroting the latest Turkish propoganda pieces - and this seems very obvious to me. McCarthy's quote is typical of this. Certainly if we are discussing the totality of Armenian history some mention of Armenian revenge attacks against Turks after the genocide and/or the activities of Russian Armenians in WWI would be appropriate. In any discussion of the Armenian Genocide these things deserve perhaps a slight mention - however they are not fundemental to the issues of the Armenian Genocide itself. The "provacation thesis" and claims by Turks and Turk apologists of civil war and such are entirely false and discredited assumptions. I don't at all contend that no Turks suffered during - prior to and after this period - but for this article we are attempting to provide accepted facts that prtain to the Armenian Genocide and the only Turkish suffering of this period of note came from actions of the CUP and events tied directly to the war situation. The Armenian Genocide refers to the actions initiated by the CUP/Ottoman Government to ethnically cleans Anatolia of its own Armenian citizens. This extremely brutal and comprehensively destructive series of acts has few collallarys in modern history and certainly no counter done by Armenians (or even any others) to any group of Turks. You obviously fail to understand the magnitude and devastation of these actions and the decimation and utter deppravities commited against the Armenians. I find your attempts to equate any Turkish suffering of this period to the Armenian devastation to be entirely disengenuous and faulty. And furthermore your and other's attempts here to claim that Armenians did something equivilant or even that they commited acts to justify what was done are clearly no more then a repeat of vicious CUP/Turkish propoganda that have no bearing on reality and that is highly insulting and hurtful to Armenians and to all victims of genocide. This article is about the Armenian Genocide. It is an encyclopedic article - thus it shouold be entirely factual and supportable and relevent to the issue. I find that your comments meet none of these criteria.--THOTH 13:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Whitewasssssshhhhhhhhhh lutherian 14:20, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

yes we should not make the jews angry. you are pro my dear. there is no stop in your history distortions.neurobio 01:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"What the Klingon has said is unimportant, and we do not hear his words." Leonard McCoy - stardate 3497.2. Planet Capella lV --THOTH 14:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Should one assume that you equate the klingon race to the Turks? Interesting how your subconcious works! lutherian 14:20, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

whenever you come up with a nonsense claim and have no document to show I suddenly become Klingon. See upper sections where Pinky and the Brain came up with a huge claim yet change the subject when asked for a document. way to go.neurobio 20:30, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes of course. Whenever I come up with nonsense - you are a Klingon...lol...no wonder you (nobrainer) & lex luthorian seem to show no ability to understand the written word...you obviously can't and don't - and if I were you I wouldn't in good conscience make accusations that others are posting nonsense claims...particularly with the degree of support (none) behind your various contentions...--THOTH 22:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

good rhetorics and nice try (nobrainer and Lex luthorian) yet not good enough. well you are a pro! Talat is a jew! because Salonica was also habited by many alevi-bekhtasi Turks (yörük) who were widely moved from Aydin there were plenty of regular scools just like the one Mustafa kemal attended. let me tell what nonsense is! claiming that a muslim Turk child can go to a jew school is nonsense. (first he will not be sent by the family since there are regular schools second minorities dont accept others. and please remember that all these schools give a strong religious back ground. At that time almost every thing that was tought in schools were religion oriented.)

so will it whitewash Turks? absolutely no but this is a good marker to understand if the person you are dealing with is a diaspora propagandist or not. A good willed armenian who fullhardedly belives in genocide says "ok Talat and many other young turks were jew so what?" (like marshall bayramyan has said) but a diaspora propagandist says no they were not jews. Why because they know they need the help of the jewish comunity for their cause. They dont want to make jews much more upset for now. And they also want to tickle strong Jew lobies with false claims like young Turks (almost half being jew) would have deported jews if it wasnt for Germanys intervention (the germans who will comit the real holocaus some 30 years later). Our diaspora propagandists who are "revealing the past" just skip this part just in a blink of an eye. When it is all over they will start writing books on "jewish responsibility in armenian genocide".

Yes why would I want to antagonize anyone with "false claims that are untrue"? This makes no sense at all to me. If I make a claim it is because I have support for it. The mention of Talat going to a Jewish school was from Fromkin - A Peace to End all Peace ...who also spoke to the widespread anti-semitism of the British Middle East desk where many of these rumours and (false) charges of Jewish complicity in the Young Turk movement originate from. Fromkin - who could hardly be considered as a biased or questionable source - dispells these arguments by presenting the facts and circumstance. --THOTH 13:42, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So I (nobrainer) ask you pinky (or brain if it makes you feel better) to accept me as a klingon and answer none of my post. And I will accept you as a diaspora propagandist with an unmached talent to ignore or falsify the simplest facts of history and dont take you seriosuly from now on. deal?neurobio 23:21, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That Lex Lutherian name calling really cracked me up Thor, I know you consider yourself a genius and far more knowledeable on this subject than anyone else except maybe Fadix who has frequently given you a good thrashing for your blind propaganda. I suggest you go take a break like he did for the sake of improving the quality of this topic lutherian 04:38, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What's with the insults? Can't we have a civilized discussion here? This isn't a freakin' dissfest you know. —Khoikhoi 04:48, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have approached the issues here seriosly and by providing support to the positions I present. However, the response has either been name calling of me personally (this "thor" thing is not new nor is commentary that I am hateful toward Turks and a propogandist). If not this they make ad hominem attacks against legitimate and respected researchers or they admonish me for making long posts that they will not read. Either way they are making no substantive comments or contribution here. This issue of supposed Jewish involvement in the armenian Genocide is just another of their red herrings. No matter what I answer with factually they will find some typical denialist angle to attack on. Of course I will tire of responsing to wild unsupported claims and meaningless (to the issue) statements...thus the Klingon comment...I mean should I really be wasting my time on their irrelavent and entirely unsupported garbage? Its quite easy for the true propogandists who provide nothing of substance to accuse others that they are doing the same. However, I think I have proven to possess historical and scholarly foundation for the views I put forth and I am able to provide legitimate support for such as well - I have done so frequently...unlike this "other side" which produces only innuendo and claims based on opinion and not fact. --THOTH 13:35, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You know, I have been reading these posts for some time and watching everyone go back and forth with charges, accusations and insulting each other. This is becoming absurd. This is my first post, so please excuse me if I am not followig proper protocol. Regarding the genocide, I have personally met over two dozen survivors of the Armenian genocide and have been to Armenia six times so far. The painful memories and stories of the survivors say it all to me. Also, I have worked extensively in the Armenian community and have heard contless accounts of families torn apart from the genocide. By the way, I am not Armenian, but I am entirely convinced of the reality of the genocide. Read all of the history books and debates as you want, but after hearing the testimonies of the survivors and their relatives first hand, I do not need any more convincing. If you ever have the opportunity to travel to Armenia, you will see that the Armenian people are STILL suffering from the effects of the genocide. If you choose to not beleive it, that is your right, but please show some respect for those who have suffered and continue to suffer from this terrible tragedy.

typical one sided view of the story, a massacre can quickly and easily turn into a propaganda genocide especially when in the hand of those that have bad intentions. According to the above, you have been several times to Armenia and are probably in love with Armenians, have you bothered looking at this from the Turkish side? I doubt it very much! lutherian 17:34, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We appreciate your comments concerning your experiences with Armenians concerning the Genocide (and that it and its denial have a continuing effect) and the your correct view of the unassailability of Genocide claims and knowledge based on the historical record. It may prove helpful to the article if you list some of the sources of information you have come accross/relied on for your information. I share your disgust concerning the denial and the pityful and shameful campaign here on the part of some disengenuous proponents of denial to claim that the genocide did not occur. I have tried to counter these contentions with fact but have been met by steady opposition - no matter the poor quality of such - that it continues and that the article continues to portray the denial as legitimate is enough to debase the history and make this article a bit of a joke. As poor as the support for their positions has been - if not countered they assume the right to change the article as they see fit - even if their edits (like their commentary here) totally fail to meet all quality standards for a factual article of this nature. IMO the involvement and contributions of people such as yourself are vital to counter this denial. I would however encourage you to sign your posts. --THOTH 15:40, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

you start calling me Lex Lutherian and then you are surprised I call you Thor? A couple of pages back in the archives you go as far as insulting Jews by attempting to diminish the importance of the Holocaust. Wasnt it you who said that the so called Armenian genocide is arguably more tragic or more of a crime than the Jewish Holocaust? Frankly I find it shocking that you would think something like this but it reflects your frame of mind. As for the so called genocide, you grotesquely inflate your claims and continuously use highly questionable sources as support and then expect everyone else to agree? In addition to this, you opnely LIE when you say that the opposition is here just to attack your claims. Just to refresh your selective memory, how many times did deepblue, neurobio and others bring totally valid points disproving the so called genocide on this page and the likes of you and Fadix just smeared them with the most ridiculous arguments such as nationalism, and in the case of non Turks, that they were on the payroll of the Turkish government. It is impossible to have a discussion with you when the only thing you do is just bombard this page with tons of cut & paste material that nobody reads (even your pal Fadix criticized you for this) and when you do contribute with your own words, its just to insult others or just to conduct your smear campaign calling us vandals, trolls or what not. You truly deserve what you get, you have a serious attitude problem, if you want others to respect you then you should learn to do the same!lutherian 17:34, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have never said anything to diminish the Holocaust - this charge is completely a red herring. And yes I did say that the Armenian Genocide could be arguably considered more tragic then the Jewish Holocaust...and I stand by this statement - if one considers the degree of devastation (% killed alone based upon population and shortness of time taken to destroy the community), the complete loss of homeland and resultant absence of Armenians in Anatolia, the fact that Armenians continued to be killed and massacred even after the Genocide (by the Nationalist forces) and the fact that the Turks were basically able to see the Genocide of Armenians to completion - where the end of WWII cut short the german efforts to totally decimate the Jews of Europe - yes - I think an argument could be made that the Armenian tragedy was of greater severity. However I view ech communities suffering as essentially the same and do not think one can easily put a value on each - which was certainly equally devestating and horrible for those subjected to each. As for the rest of your diatribe - I'm tired of responding to klingons...--THOTH 19:23, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Again I am shocked by your confirmation here as I am sure many others are. I would also mention that you somewhat contradict yourself when you mention that one cannot put a value to suffering right after saying the Armenian tragedy was of greater severity. You also mention that the killing continued even after the so called genocide, are you referring to the Armenian attack on the Turkish forces which was swiftly repelled and crushed? Talk about hostilities! lutherian 06:37, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

At that time , armenians were attacting turkish people. And they were attacking defendless innocent people. they killed pregnant woman and opened her belly just for fun to check whether baby is male or female.

Do you want me to give another story? I have many. There was a guy and his neithbor was armenian. At that time, armenians captured him and they tied him to a tree. And they started to cut his children's ear. They forced him to eat ears of his children. They didn't killed this guy. Because they wanted him to suffer by thinking his dead childrens.

In adana, people ascaped to mountains to survive because armenians were cutting them.

I beg you !! Dont show armenian as angel please.. We didnt forget anything and "armenian genocide propanganda" is nothing more than insulting us. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.102.50.215 (talk • contribs) .

This isn't a Turkish fiction story site mate - seems you've happened upon the wrong place.--THOTH 21:08, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is an example of stories.. Perhaps it gives an idea how Armenians were devil..

so if copy paste is contribution here comes contribution.

let me refresh your memory.

"At the beginning of the Fall of 1914 when Turkey had not yet entered the war but already been making preparations, Armenian revolutionary bands began to be formed in Transcaucasia with great enthusiasm and especially with much uproar... The Armenian Revolutionary Federation had active participation in the formation of the bands and their future military action against Turkey... In the Fall of 1914 Armenian volunteer band organized themselves and fought against the Turks because they could not refrain themselves from fighting. This was an inevitable result of psychology on which the Armenian people had nourished itself during an entire generation; that mentality should have found its expression and did so....The Winter of 1914 and Spring of 1915 were the periods of greatest enthusiasm and hope for all Armenians in the Caucasus including of course the Dashnaktsutiun. We had no doubt the war would end with the complete victory of the Allies; Turkey would be defeated and dismembered and its Armenian population would be liberated. We had embraced Russia wholeheartedly without any compunction. Without any positive basis of fact we believed that the Tzarist government would grant us a more-or-less broad self-government in the Caucasus and in the Armenian vilayets liberated from Turkey as a reward for our loyalty, our efforts and assistance. "

who is this science fiction writer: Mr. Hovhannes Katchaznouni, first Prime Minister of the Independent Armenian Republic (1919 manifesto "Dashnaktsutiun has nothing to do")

December 15, 1915 article from the famously anti-Turkish New York Times called "The Black Company" attesting to these facts: "By the 15th of last October 26,000 Turkish Armenians had taken the field against their ancient overloads, and 15,000 more were drilling at Tiflis, these groups being entirely distinct from the 75,000 Russian Armenians that had already been welded into the Czar's army. Fully 2,800 of these Turkish Armenians had been contributed by the Armenian colony in the United States."

let me also remind that Boghos Nubar Pasha asked for a full participation to lousanne treaty stating that the actively fought against the Turks.

and brand new (my translation to english)『As it has been reported in Russian military officers reports and orders, Armenian volunteer bands mostly dealed with massacring the non-Christian civilian population. These volunteer bands which destroyed the Turk and Kurd population in a systematic manner aimed to clear Armenian lands off from foreign elements…. This was employed in such a continuous (with enthusiasm) way that caused problems (displeasantness) in the Russian Army.』And this is not Isac assimov… This is Artases Balasiyevic Karinyan a states man from soviet Armenia. Published in “Bolshevik Zakavkazya” magazine 1928 article name “Armenian nationalist movement (fractions)”. You can find it in Lenin library.

As usual Reality is more interesting than fiction. Just imagine they attack first start killing unarmed people (because all men were in the army) to make way for their Armenian home land (where they constitue %20-25 of the population). then the goverment moves them to somewhere else (700.000 to 900.000 moved. on the way 300.000 to 400.000 died According to Armenian boghos nubar pasa. i have the document from french archives if you want) in its boundaries still they attack with the Russian army. in the mean time a propaganda (genocide claim) goes on so that imperial powers will occupy these vilayets and grand them a Homeland a Republic. later they come with the frenc as Legion de lorient continue killing in antep region. when all fails they start a campaing across the atlantic where no one was there to tell the truth. in 1980 they start a second series of assasinations with ASALA against Turkish people and diplomats assasinate over 200 (these asala "heroes" are today resting in yerablur cemetary the great monumenrtal cemetary for armenian heroes). they produce fake documents, fake testimonies, fake pictures When they are proven to be wrong they start saying that these historians are paid by Turkey, they start a smear campaign if not enough they bomb these historians houses. And the number goes up and up and up 1918 (400.000), 1920 (600,000 - 800.000), today (1.5 milion). And today I with my fiance whose 13 relatives were killed and dumped in to a well by armenian bands in Erzurum (probably by armenian national hero the great Andranik. It should be his region. Interesting thing is the tortures that were described to us by a 90 year old man was identical to Khojaly[[5]]). We find our selves trying to convince our fellow friends who have been exposed to Armenian propaganda for ages that there is no genocide. Really it is so strange and you cant help but go crazy. You should understand that most of Turkish people are unaware of the immense armenian propaganda but they grew up listening to Armenian atrocities from their mothers and fathers. They grew up playing aroung the mass grave in their village. Someday everything will be revealed only if you can just be neutal.neurobio 01:36, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

First of all your claims concerning numbers here are false all around. The 1.5 million Armenians killed was used very on by Germans in secret correspondences from Anatolia back to Germany (and was used by others as well..and apeared in Newspapers from the time)and it has been widely used since. Even the CUP/Ottomans admitted to 800,000 killed in deportations...and this does not count those killed in massacres (such as Armenian men from forced labor battalions and otherwise who were in the army and were killed...nor does it include the great many Armenians killed after the intitial Genocide phase). There is a great deal of discussion about these numbers already so I don’t feel the need to reiterate everything – suffice to say that there is more then enough proof to support this figure or something very near to it (1.2 million being a figure that has been derived by various scholars for instance). As for your other cut and pastes here – the quotes from Hovhannes Katchaznouni are known to have been doctored/mistranslated and at least partially fabricated. And in any event they, like some other quotes often used by the Genocide deniers, they are from a period where Bolshevik Armenians were attempting to discredit Dashnak Armenians thus these type of charges need to be taken with a grain of salt as they were entirely politically motivated to discredit the Dashnaks in the eyes of other Armenians. The same is true for Bogus Nubar who was doing everything he could at the Paris talks to inflate the role of Armenians in the war to better assure them recognition in the post war period. Neither of these two sources can be relied upon for concrete numbers as they must be considered in their context. (I usually rely on the various German figures where possible and so do most scholars). I am not at all familiar with Artases Balasiyevic Karinyan – nor could I find a single word concerning him from any source. Not surprising really as there have been a plethora of such quotes that have appeared where analysis has reveled that they are either total fabrications or seriously mistranslated to seem to say things that were not ever said. Your other subjects – ASALA and Nagorno Karabagh are irrelevant here (however here I would also dispute your contentions - but they are of no relevance here concerning the issue of the Armenian Genocide - whther it happened or not). In fact nothing you have posted here does anything to contradict the facts of the Genocide. No one has ever disputed that Russian Armenians fought with Russian forces during the war and that there were certain atrocities committed by these Russian/Armenian forces – typical of this sort of war situation - but not something attributable to Ottoman Armenians or possible to use to counterbalance the crimes commited by the ottoman Government against their own ethnic Armenian citizens. Likewise it is known that some Ottoman Armenians did indeed flee into Russia and join with the Russian forces…much as a great many Azeri’s and other Caucasian Turkic’s did in reverse…in fact the Special Organization had been involved in recruiting and propagandizing various Turkic’s within Russian territories and this Special Organization was already murdering Armenians and destroying Caucasian Armenian villages well before the war….in effect they were doing exactly what they (for the most part falsely) accused the Armenians of. In fact the zeal (thugery) of the SO was such that the 3rd army commander in this region called for their disbandment (and issued an arrest warrant for their leader – Dr Shakir) shortly after the start of the war – for the reason that these irregulars were plundering Muslim villages as well as Armenian and that they were out of control, out of bounds in their savagery, and were causing havoc in the region. He (and the Germans in their reports) were likewise concerned that these actions would turn the otherwise loyal local (Armenian) populace against the Ottomans. So it is no surprise that Shakir ended up in Istanbul with a fistfull of (largely concocted) accusations against the Armenians to cover his crimes and turn the opinion against the (hated…he was a known hater of) Armenians. And this is exactly what occurred. The fact is there was very little 5th column activity by Ottoman Armenians against the Turks. Besides a handful of cases of resistance to massacre – such as in Van – there were literally no instances of Armenian irregulars saving lightly guarded columns of “deportees” or acting in any way as revolutionaries or against Muslim civilians - German confidential reports indicate that Armenians were quiet and peaceable during this time and in fact the Dashnaks were still under the delusion that the CUP still included them positively in their plans - thus all anti-government activity from them had ceased long before the war. These Turkish counter-charges are largely complete fiction - based more on the CUP paranoia - based on CUP/SO plans and activities then on any reality based on what Armenians were doing. As for (Caucasian) Armenians (and remnants of Ottoman Armenians) massacring innocent Turks in the latter part of the war (after the main thrust of the Genocide had already decimated the Ottoman Armenian population) – yes this did occur and is unfortunate and sorrowful. And there is no doubt that much of this sort of massacring of villages occurred on both sides during the war. However these wartime atrocities are not comparable to the Genociding of the entirely of the civilian Armenian population of Anatolia by systematic means and those actions commited by Armenians largely occured in periods after the genocide had largely been completed. Nor can any of these actions – which in the period prior to the Genocide were very few in any event – be used as an excuse or justification for the government sponsored mass barbarity and slaughter of its own civilian population - the Armenians - who were overwhelmingly peaceful and loyal. Melson very well disproves this “provocation thesis” and he and other sources clearly show that it was the dynamics of the CUP revolution itself and the bigotry and Pan-Turanic designs of its principles that was the cause of the Armenian Genocide – no anything that was done on the part of the Armenians.--THOTH 16:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fascinating, its like talking to a wall!!! THOTH have you ever considered that if in your words the biggest crime of last century was committed by Ottoman Turks we should credit them for being so methodical, efficient, ingenious, swift and organized as they, in such short a period, apparently succeeded in wiping out 1.5 million souls (some even suggest 2 million) and that its still being debated today. I mean this far surpasses the ingenuity of the Nazi Germans that were famed for their ruthlessness and efficiency. From all the garbage you produce on this page, one would think that the Turks were so impressivly organized and efficient. Dont you think that you given too much credit to a people that are much better known for their sloppyness and machoism, a bit like Italians? lutherian 20:07, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The results of the CUP plan to exterminate the Armenians speaks for itself and the observers whose cooborated accounts documents the severity and enormity of the slaughter and the quickness in which it was accomplished speaks for itself. I am not giving anyone (undue) credit...the facts are documented and known. There are thousands of reports that speak to the brutal efficiency of the forced starvation marches and other methods of mass slaughter. I'm sure that even the CUP leadership itself was surprised by their ultimate efficiency. Such a mass slaughter has never either before or since been witnessed in all of human history (unless perhaps one was to consider Hiroshima and Nagasaki...even then...). Another Turkish historical milestone to be proud of I guess. --THOTH 23:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You are so Funny THOTH. Diverting ideas, confusing minds, telling lies. I am sure that ninety nine percent of the well-written reports are biased. But I will tell you two things that will discourage you 1.) Ottoman Empire did and could not with a prior organization kill so many people. Not even their worst enemy Armenians.

2.) Officially, the Turkish Republic, and the US and Isreal, in a global sense, will never let the tiny Armenian lobby to succeed in their false propaganda.

Dont be sorry. YOu can still make a living with producing garbage. Not much though.

See you in the conference, oh I forgot, there is none!

Sign > Jehovah's Witness

Jehova? I believe it's spelled Jehovah. —Khoikhoi 00:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Witness? I believe it's spelled Witnesses. —Khoikhoi 01:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dumbs h i t...is I believe spelled L u t h e r...yeah...thats it...though otherwise known as klingon...--THOTH 02:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Or perhaps Witless is what he meant to sign...--THOTH 02:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To THOTH and brainles Khoikhoi > The followers of Jehovas Witnesses( Thanks for your dumb English correction ) can be called as Jehovas Witness among themselves. This is one person.

This is an Armenian Genocide talk page, if you want to spit your hateful swears go to Armeniapedia or some other vulgar site like that. Here spitting venom is not tolerated. You stick with the topic, or get the hell out of here. And be careful this time you may not have secluded your ID very well. Still, you can afford to go to McDonalds I guess. Signature >

J.W

McDonald's is pretty good. Did you hear they recently changed their menu? —Khoikhoi 05:04, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So you hav come here to make threats? Is this the latest silencing tactic now? Well not latest - as it too has been used before (by the ZTurkish Government).--THOTH 13:27, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

LOL, like Fadix your mind is playing tricks on you, must be the heat of the summer. FYI, I aint the one who wrote the above, unless you believe that for the fun of it, I hopped into a plane and crossed borders just to fool you, LOL. And please get it into your head that the Turks just dont have the type of organization and efficiency to commit a swift genocide and then in no time and amidst all the chaos get rid of all the official documents in such an effective way that even today people speculate as to what happened to them. Again, you give them way too much credit, its just not in their DNA.

You can have your opinion - and you can just imagine how much that is valued here - however as I have said before - the facts speak for themselves. The CUP - like the Sultan before it - employed one of the largest secret intelligence (and operations) organizations known to any nation in history. Additionally the CUP - much like the Nazi party in Germany 20+ years later operated a quasi governmental party aparatus of a kind not seen before which seized the functioning of the Ottoman Government at all levels and oprated behind the scenes in secrecy - with secret orders delivered by telegram - a favorite method of Talat - himself once a telegraph operator. These secret orders were by design made to be destroyed after reading. Additionally there is documentation of Talat and other hich level CUP operatives destroying a great number of party records and other information. So yes - contrary to your historically lacking assertions - there is a great deal of evidence suggesting that the CUP had the means to efficiently carryout orders of this type - and the systematic methodology of the Genocide in time and place is well documented - none of this is a fabrication - just because Genocide deniers refuse to aknowledge the overwhelming amount of cooberative data. And that records were destroyed en mass is again no surprise - and the CUP got a head start and were able to come to an understanding of what needed to be done when it looked as i the Allies were going to break through the Marramara and take Constantinople itself. At that time they destroyed records and in fact were set to burn down the city itself. They were always very concerned that the outside world would become fully aware of their crimes and did everything they could to prevent this - including incredible censorship. So it is no wonder that the written documentation as well as photographic evidence is much less then one might imagine. Still what is available is more then sufficient to prove the case.--THOTH 13:27, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, you can argue as much as you like, show all the evidence you want, the bottom line is its impossible that such a huge campaign of massacres were carried with the ferocious efficiency that you suggest taking into consideration Turkishness, the utterly chaotic sitation of the times (think of the logistical nightmares) where an empire was collapsing very rapidly, corruption was rampant, wars on several fronts and serious rebellions within, the less advanced technologies of the times and the relative poverty of the masses. There would have been blunders the size of Alaska, not the type that would require years of detective work and inferences. Sorry but you are seriously making a fool out of yourself here lutherian 18:42, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

BTW Khoikhoi your last sentance really cracked me up, over here its the football burgers for the world cup, LOL lutherian 04:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

`Still what is available is more then sufficient to prove the case` !! This guy really wants this to be true. They are clearly right that he is being paid for this. IT is interesting that people can make others lie in a terrible way, in matters they dont know anything about, just by paying them. Poor person...

M.I.T Scholar from US

I think you never checked the turkish history before. First of All, you are from America and This is a simple stupid american point of view. 'Just belive any propaganda which exist' user:onur

http://www.genocidewatch.org/TurkishPMIAGSOpenLetterreArmenia6-13-05.htm

From above - "We represent the major body of scholars who study genocide in North America and Europe. We are concerned that in calling for an impartial study of the Armenian Genocide you may not be fully aware of the extent of the scholarly and intellectual record on the Armenian Genocide and how this event conforms to the definition of the United Nations Genocide Convention. We want to underscore that it is not just Armenians who are affirming the Armenian Genocide but it is the overwhelming opinion of scholars who study genocide: hundreds of independent scholars, who have no affiliations with governments, and whose work spans many countries and nationalities and the course of decades. The scholarly evidence reveals the following: On April 24, 1915, under cover of World War I, the Young Turk government of the Ottoman Empire began a systematic genocide of its Armenian citizens – an unarmed Christian minority population. More than a million Armenians were exterminated through direct killing, starvation, torture, and forced death marches. The rest of the Armenian population fled into permanent exile. Thus an ancient civilization was expunged from its homeland of 2,500 years. The Armenian Genocide was the most well-known human rights issue of its time and was reported regularly in newspapers across the United States and Europe. The Armenian Genocide is abundantly documented by thousands of official records of the United States and nations around the world including Turkey’s wartime allies Germany, Austria and Hungary, by Ottoman court-martial records, by eyewitness accounts of missionaries and diplomats, by the testimony of survivors, and by decades of historical scholarship." --THOTH 02:16, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Major body of scholars who study genocide in North America and Europe?" LOL, any serious person knows that these scholars are a bunch of fakes and this association of genocide scholars is a major hoax. I would equate their credibility and seriousness to a bunch of clowns in a circus lutherian 05:28, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"In the Spring of 1915, when the snow was beginning to melt on the Armenian plateau, the government in Constantinople began work on the systematic annihilation of Armenians. The Armenians were driven to the South, avoiding routes from where Armenians were already cleansed. The town of Urfa, nearby the Syrian desert, which was the terminus for the driven Armenians, was the last one to be cleansed of Armenians. By the Summer of 1916, the Armenian community had been removed and fragmented. The largest nucleus [of Armenians] outside Constantinople, consisted of laborers found outside Adana, working on the Baghdad railroad. There were no Armenian villages left. The history of the Armenian genocide is the history of Armenian women and urchins. The men were murdered right at the start. From primary sources, both Ottoman and other, it appears that in the East where a war was being fought with Russia, the Armenians were murdered on the spot. Elsewhere, they were deported, whereby their houses were not destroyed but confiscated. Their personal possessions, such as money and jewelry were looted from them. For the reason for the implementation of the genocide, you should ask Talaat. Both pan-Turkism and Islamic fervor existed well before the genocide. The provocation thesis, which states that Armenian were the fifth column and would have turned on the Turks the moment the Russians advanced, is a concoction that was hatched at the German embassy in Constantinople in May 1915. The Ottoman Empire was extensively centralized. A good bureaucracy held it all together. The telegraphic system of communication was exemplary. Special military units were instituted for the purpose of carrying out the genocide. No one was allowed to murder Armenians without the consent of these military units. Those who disregarded the rules were dealt severely." Hilmar Kaiser - PHD - European Institute, Florence - Historian (Ottoman social and economic history) and Armenian Genocide resercher who has worked directly with the Ottoman Archives - from an interview with Dirk van Delft - NRC Handelsblad Page 51 - Amsterdam - May 27, 2000 --THOTH 02:22, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A rockstar who was kicked out of the archives and who himself stated in 1999 that he was not a scholar, how many clowns are you going to quote? lutherian 05:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"What took place was genocide, not massacres. I use the word `genocide' because it adequately describes the phenomenon. It's the only term we have that describes it. If one day we have a better word, fine. The English, German, and Turkish languages have only one word to describe. That this has a negative consequence on the Turkish government is something I can't change; I can't change history. I'm not prepared to haggle over it. If a Turkish scholar says it too politicized and he or she doesn't want to use the word, then let him/her take a different subject. If you want to be part of this debate, apply proper terminology and if you don't want to do it, you aren't a scholar." Hilmar Kaiser - interview with Khatchig Mouradian - 24 September, 2005 - published in Aztag Daily Newspaper --THOTH 02:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ditto lutherian 05:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"(What actually happened in 1915-16) was no accident, this was not a marginal or small thing, it was not a geographically or demographically limited thing, virtually the entirety of Ottoman Armenians has been ordered to be rounded up, socially deracinated, uprooted, dispossesses, and deported for no reason other than that they were Armenians and, secondly, that there was very strong evidence that the accompanied violence and massacres had not started spontaneously or despite the best intentions of the state to protect the convoys of the deportees. Rather, there was strong evidence to the effect that there were orders issued, disseminated, and executed through the Teşkilât-ı Mahsusa and that this in turn triggered secondary and tertiary rounds of violence and massacres once it became clear that the Armenians were fair game and that the shooting season was open on them. It fits the clauses of the 1948 UN convention (on genocide) comprehensively, and in that light, if we are permitted to take those categorizations and apply them to an event that occured 33 years earlier, then we have to say, “Yes, it was genocide” Halil Berktay - The Specter of the Armenian Genocide - An Interview with Halil Bektay - by Katchig Mouradian - November 1 2005

This is what Berktay had to say in an interview back in 2000 :" Before the Armenian events, there is the whole background of the 19th century. (...) With the Allies forcing the Dardanelles [in 1915], the Ottoman Empire, that had suffered one defeat after the other in the Balkans and that had nothing but the lands of Anatolia left, entered into a psychosis of (...) being cornered and squeezed, of helplessness. [At the same time], Armenian bands massacred a lot of Muslims as well. In such a process, it is impossible to find out who threw the first stone, who committed the first crime. Everybody has a story. Turks, Bulgarians, Greeks, Armenians, everybody. In each of these stories, those who tell them are always in the role of victims. They themselves have never committed injustices against others, and they have been the only ones who have suffered. One can remark that 1915 killings of Armenians are remembered and the Cretan massacres committed against the Turkish Muslim population of the island between 1896-1900 are not remembered. I come from a family of Cretan immigrants myself. I know that my two great uncles have been hanged to the tree in our garden by a band of Greeks." lutherian 05:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"...the fact that what happened in 1915 was a mass murder was not even the subject of an argument in any manner from the viewpoint of the actors of that period, with Mustafa Kemal at their head. Of course the word soykirim [genocide] (being a term belonging to the post World War II period) was not used in those days. To describe what had happened in 1915, words such as "katliam" [massacre], "taktil" [killings], "teb'id" [taking away, expulsion, expelling], "kital" [massacre] were used. Mustafa Kemal has dozens of speeches in which he defines the treatments reserved to Armenians as "cowardice", or "barbarity", and names these treatments "massacre". In September 1919, the American General Harbord, who visited Mustafa Kemal in Sivas, says "he, too, disapproved the Armenian Massacre." According to Mustafa Kemal, "the massacre and deportation of Armenians was the work of a small committee who had seized the power" Taner Akcam - Historian and sociologist --THOTH 02:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

LOL, how can you take the words of a former terrorist with a major chip on his shoulder seriously? lutherian 05:28, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"The Armenian Genocide and the Holocaust were the quintessential instances of genocide in the modern era. Both catastophes were the products of state-initiated policies whose intended and actual results were the elimination of the Armenian community from the Ottoman Empire and of the Jewish community from most of Europe, respectively. Their destruction was not only a war against foreign strangers, it was a mass murder that commenced with an attack on an internal domestic segment of the state's own society. The genocide of the Armenians should be understood not as a response to "Armenian provocations" but as a stage in the Turkish revolution, which as a reaction to the continuing disintegration of the empire settled on a narrow nationalism and excluded Armenians from the moral universe of the state. It should be obvious from the overwhelming evidence that exists in the state archives of major powers that the 1915 genocide of the Armenians was premeditated and the isolated cases of armed resistance by the Armenians were deliberately provoked by the Turkish govenrment so as to exploit it as justification for a general campaign of race extermination. That being so, bringing up the much discredited myth of Armenian disloyalty in the context of the 1915 Armenian Genocide is as offensive to the victims as well as to well-informed non-Armenians as bringing up the Nazi rationalization of an alleged "international Jewish conspiracy" would be in the context of the Nazi Holocaust. Because both the Armenians under Ottoman rule and the Jews in Nazi-occupied Europe perished not for something they did or failed to do, but for who they were." Professor Robert Melson - Holocaust survivor and genocide scholar in Revolution and Genocide: On the Origins of the Armenian Genocide and the Holocaust - University of Chicago Press 1992

"The Armenian Genocide is proven in all its components - among them intent. The converging evidence is well in excess of that generally judged abundant in establishing other historical truths. The genocide was a horrendous crime. The evidence is there - province by province, city by city, village by village, hamlet by hanlet, with its countless variations according to time and place yet all the same in the vast process of extermination - genocide. A deliberate plan, carefully organized and brutally executed. The deniers and rationalizers offend the dignity of the historian and of all humanity." Yves Ternon - author of several volumes concerning human rights and genocide in - Freedom and Responsibility of the Historian - the "Lewis Affair" - 1999 --THOTH 02:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Louise Nalbandian, The Armenian Revolutionary Movement, Berkeley 1963 p 168 The programme of the Dashnaksutiun Party (Armenian Revolutionary Federation) was drafted during the General Congress in 1892. The methods to be used by the revolutionary bands organized by the Party were as follows: a. To propagandize for the principles of the Dashnaksutiun and its objectives based on an understanding of, and in sympathy with, the revolutionary work. b. To organize fighting bands, to work with them with regard to the above-mentioned issues and to prepare them for activity. c. To use every means, by word and deed, to arouse the revolutionary activity and spirit of the people. d. To use every means to arm the people. e. To organize revolutionary committees and establish strong links between them. f. To stimulate fighting and to terrorize government officials, informers, traitors, usurers and every kind of exploiter. g. To organize financial districts. h. To protect the peaceful people and the inhabitants against attacks by brigands. i. To establish communications for the transportation of men and arms. j. To expose government establishments to looting and destruction 24.211.192.250 04:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

First of all this proclamation of the Dashnaks occurred in 1892 and a great deal had changed between then and 1915. It is widely accepted and was observed that the Dashnaks ceased anti-Ottoman Government activities with the CUP revolution of 1908 and the re-establishment of the constitution with Dashnak participation in the Parliament and alliance with the CUP…so this declaration has nothing to do with events of the Armenian Genocide. Still – let us examine it a bit and consider the circumstances of such a declaration. In 1878 the Treaty of Berlin, agreed to by the Ottomans, contained provisions for protection of Christian minorities within the Ottoman Empire. While Sultan Hamid chose to ignore these provisions – and in fact the record is that these spurred greater atrocities, depravations and massacres – the Treaty did establish that in fact the Christian minorities were being mistreated and that reform was needed. The Dashnaks, like other Armenian political parties – and in fact other political parties such as the Young Ottomans and the Young Turks – all agitated for reform and acted against the Ottoman Government which was rightly seen as corrupt, repressive and detrimental to the Empire and to the rights and living standards of all its citizens. The Dashnaks were opposed to the repressive measures being taken against Armenians and the Sultan’s abrogation of the Tanzimat reforms and were seeking additional foreign attention to these facts and to the plight of Armenians – and no wonder as the Ottoman Government under Sultan Hamid - had already proven incapable of needed reform – in fact quite the opposite – they were regressionary and reactive in the worst way. No where are the Dashnaks calling for the establishment of a separate Armenian State – their (called for) actions are a desperate attempt to stimulate progress towards betterment of the Armenian lot within the Ottoman Empire – and I don’t think anyone can argue that such was not justified or needed. While one may question the range of methods that they advocated – when one considers the great deprivations and massacres that Armenians endured – and these being part and partial to Official Ottoman Government policy – we can see that the Dashnak targets where squarely against Government functions and functionaries – and their call for “revolutionary spirit” parallels that of other political groups in the Empire opposed to the bloody reign of the Sultan – including the CUP.--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sir Mark Sykes, The Caliph's Last Heritage, London 1915 (p. 409). As for the tactics of the revolutionaries, anything more fiendish one could not imagine - The assassination of Moslems in order to bring about the punishment of innocent men, the midnight extortion of money from villages which have just paid their taxes by day, the murder of persons who refuse to contribute to their collection boxes, are only some of the crimes of which Moslems, Catholics and Gregorians accuse them with no uncertain voice. The Armenian revolutionaries prefer to plunder their co-religionists to giving battle to their enemies; the anarchists of Constantinople throw bombs with the intention of provoking a massacre of their fellow-countrymen. If the object of English philanthropists and the roving brigands (who are the active agents of revolution) is to subject the bulk of eastern provinces to the tender mercies of an Armenian oligarchy, then I cannot entirely condemn the fanatic outbreaks of the Moslems or the repressive measures of the Turkish Government. On the other hand, if the object of the Armenians is to secure equality before law and the maintenance of security and peace in the countries partly inhabited by Armenians, then I can only say that their methods are not those calculated to achieve success 24.211.192.250 04:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

This is the comment of Sykes the British head of their Near East office concerning excesses of some Armenian revolutionaries at some point (unidentified in the text) prior to WWI. However I would argue that much of his commentary is unsupportable speculation – particularly concerning motives of some of the actors – much like he was (falsely) convinced that the Young Turk movement was nothing more then a Jewish plot (and that the Young Turks were all Jews – in fact Fromkin in his Peace to End all Peace - comments numerous times how clueless Sykes was concerning what was occurring within the Ottoman government and empire jut in general). But OK - no one will argue that certain young and idealistic Armenians may have taken their anti-government actions too far – this did certainly happen. However, when one looks at the record of Ottoman Government atrocities committed against Armenians during and prior to this period it is of no surprise that some Armenians acted violently in response as well – and who could really blame them? In Syke’s last sentence – which I think is notable - Sykes correctly points out (IMO) that these activities are likely to not meet with success “to secure equality before law and the maintenance of security and peace in the countries partly inhabited by Armenians” and I think most Armenians – including many who were themselves terrorized by the “gangs” that arose and were active in this period (late 1890s) felt similarly. However one cannot damn the entire Armenian race for the actions of a few “revolutionaries” (Though ultimately, in a sense, this is exactly what the Turks did – even though – by 1908 – these activities had largely died down. This is not to say that there were no Armenian “gangs” or vigilantes or what have you in the countryside during these later times – as there certainly were. There was a great deal of lawlessness in the East from a variety of groups – most notably the Kurds and among recent Muslim immigrants. And the poor economic conditions spurred all sorts of bandits and outlaws. Armenians themselves called upon the Turkish Government for assistance against both Kurdish and Armenian bandits who harassed their villages. If the activities of such could be construed as a justification for Genocide then one could certainly make a case for the Ottomans genociding the Kurds during these times – or the Russians committing genocide against their Turkish minorities as theses groups were demonsratably far more seditious and far more violently active against both governmental assets and civilians of their respective nations.--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

William A. Langer, The Diplomacy of Imperialism, New York, 1960 Revolutionary placards were being posted in the cities and there were not a few cases of the blackmailing of wealthy Armenians, who were forced to contribute to the cause. Europeans in Turkey were agreed that the immediate aim of the agitators was to incite disorder, bring about inhuman reprisals and so provoke the intervention of the powers. For that reason, it was said, they operated by preference in areas where the Armenians were in a hopeless minority, so that reprisals would be certain. One of the revolutionaries told Dr. Hamlin, the founder of Robert College, that the Hunchak bands would "watch their opportunity to kill Turks and Kurds, set fire to their villages, and then make their escape into the mountains. The enraged Moslems will then rise, and fall upon the defenseless Armenians and slaughter them with such barbarity that Russia will enter in the name of humanity and Christian civilization and take possession". When the horrified missionary denounced the scheme as atrocious and infernal beyond anything ever known, he received this reply: "It appears so to you, no doubt; but we Armenians have determined to be free. Europe listened to the Bulgarian horrors and made Bulgaria free. She will listen to our cry when it goes up in the shrieks and blood of millions of women and children. We shall do it" (p. 157). 24.211.192.250 04:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

This is a bit of speculation and second hand assertion of what some “revolutionaries” might have said or what their aims might have been - I think of dubious value. And even if we say they are true for arguments sake – again my argument above addresses this – and can we still say that the complete destruction of over one million individuals can be justified as revenge against the actions of a few – no matter how deplorable? And one should consider this - "Surely a few Armenians aided and abetted our enemy, and a few Armenian Deputies committed crimes against the Turkish nation... it is incumbent upon a government to pursue the guilty ones. Unfortunately, our wartime leaders, imbued with a spirit of brigandage, carried out the law of deportation in a manner that could surpass the proclivities of the most bloodthirsty bandits. They decided to exterminate the Armenians, and they did exterminate them." Mustafa Arif - Ottoman Minister of Interior (after Talat) - 13 December 1918 --THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

C.F. Dixon-Johnson, The Armenians, Blackburn 1916: We have no hesitation in repeating that these stories of wholesale massacre have been circulated with the distinct objective of influencing, detrimentally to Turkey, the future policy of the British Government when the time of settlement shall arrive. No apology, therefore, is needed for honestly endeavouring to show how a nation with whom we were closely allied for many years and which possesses the same faith as millions of our fellow-subjects, has been condemned for perpetrating horrible excesses against humanity on 'evidence' which, when absolutely false, is grossly and shamefully exaggerated (p. 61). 24.211.192.250 04:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, there is no context to these comments that would allow them to be of any value or for them to be commented on. It is not even clear who or what he is talking about.--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

David G. Hogarth, A Wandering Scholar in the Levant, New York, 1896: The Armenian, for all his ineffaceable nationalism, his passion for plotting and his fanatical intolerance, would be a negligible thorn in the Ottoman side did he stand alone. The Porte knows very well that while Armenian Christians are Gregorian, Catholic and Protestant, each sect bitterly intolerant of the others and moreover while commerce and usury are all in Armenian hands, it can divide and rule secure; but behind the Armenian secret societies (and there are few Armenians who have not committed technical treason by becoming members of such societies at some point of their lives) it sees the Kurd, and behind the Kurd the Russian; or looking west, it espies through the ceaseless sporadic propaganda of the agitators Exeter Hall and Armenian Committees. The Turk begins to repress because we sympathize and we sympathize because he represses and so the vicious circle revolves. Does he habitually, however, do more than repress? Does he, as administrator oppress? So far we have heard one version only, one part to this suit, with its stories of outrage and echoing through them a long cry for national independence. The mouth of the accused has been shut hitherto by fatalism, by custom, by the gulf of misunderstanding which is fixed between the Christian and the Moslem. In my own experience of western Armenia, extending more or less over four years up to 1894, I have seen no signs of a Reign of Terror. Life in Christian villages has not shown itself outwardly to me as being very different from life in the villages of Islam, nor the trade and property of Armenians in towns to be less secure than those of Moslems. There was tension, there was friction, there was a condition of mutual suspicion as to which Armenians have said to me again and again "If only the patriots would leave us to trade and to till!". The Turk rules by right of five hundred years' possession, and before his day the Byzantine, the Persian, the Parthian, the Roman preceded each other as over-lords of Greater Armenia back to the misty days of the first Tigranes. The Turk claims certain rights in this matter - the right to safeguard his own existence, the right to smoke out such hornets' nests as Zeitun, which has annihilated for centuries past the trade of Eastern Taurus, t!he right to remain dominant by all means not outrageous (p. 147). 24.211.192.250 04:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Again – these comments seem highly opinionated and seem unduly negative and of dubious value for a variety of reasons. It would seem to me that he has developed some negative impressions through some specific contacts that rubbed him the wrong way and then he projects and speculates where I doubt he really has sufficient information to do so. Again – this is 1894 (ie it has nothing directly to do with the Armenian Genocide)…and in fact while he has claimed to not have seen any terror he does admit that there has been repression and that it is in response to Armenian calls for reform. And the fact that he claims to have traveled around during this period – but seems to have seen no terror against the Armenians – during a period where at least 100,000 Armenians and perhaps as many as 300,000 Armenians were killed and more driven from their homes leads me to seriously question both this man’s objectively as well as the truth of his claims in general.--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

K.S. Papazian, Patriotism Perverted, Boston 1934: When the world war broke out in Europe, the Turks began feverish preparations for joining hands with the Germans. In August 1914 the young Turks asked the Dashnag Convention, then in session in Erzurum, to carry out their old agreement of 1907 and start an uprising among the Armenians of the Caucasus against the Russian government. The Dashnagtzoutune refused to do this and gave assurance that in the event of war between Russia and Turkey, they would support Turkey as loyal citizens. On the other hand, they could not be held responsible for the Russian Armenians..The fact remains, however, that the leaders of the Turkish-Armenian section of the Dashnagtzoutune did not carry out their promise of loyalty to the Turkish cause when the Turks entered the war. The Dashnagtzoutune in the Caucasus had the upper hand. They were swayed in their actions by the interests of the Russian government and disregarded entirely, the political dangers that the war had created for the Armenian!s in Turkey. Prudence was thrown to the winds; even the decision of their own convention of Erzurum was forgotten and a call was sent for Armenian volunteers to fight the Turks on the Caucasus front (p. 37). 24.211.192.250 04:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Now this commentary is really telling – though doubtlessly not in the way it was intended by the poster. We note that as early as 1907 the CUP and the Dashnaks had an agreement where the Dashnaks would help the Turks in fermenting an uprising in the Caucuses against the Russian Government. This also revels that the Turks were in fact fermenting just such a revolt – already in August of 1914 – prior to declaration of war against the Russians! So we see that the CUP felt as though the Dashnaks would remain loyal to them –as they had been in the years since 1907. In fact the Dashnaks - for all of their miscalculation in various periods – made the right call here. The Dasnaks correctly felt that the citizens of each nation should maintain their national loyalties. That some Ottoman Armenians who had been subject to massacre and other deprivations over the prior few generations might choose to cast their lot with their Russian brethren in hope for relief from Ottoman oppression should be no surprise. The fact that a great many ethnic Turks from within Russian territory did the same in reverse is also no surprise (as the Turkish efforts to ferment such were far more active then the reverse –and we can also see that they even hoped to stir up the Armenians on their behalf! As for Ottoman Armenian men in general – well they like other Ottoman men – were conscripted into Ottoman service. And in fact Armenians had served loyally in Ottoman Armies as recently as the Bulgarian campaign of 1912 – so the loyalty of Ottoman Armenians – as a group – was really not in question. It was both the CUP paranoia – knowing their own plans in the Caucuses for fermenting ethnic revolt against the Russians – more so then any mass Ottoman Armenian desertion (which was in fact far less then the level of Arab and Kurdish desertions) or Ottoman Armenian sedition (which likewise was incredibly minor) and even more so – the existence of CUP Pan-Turkic designs which excluded Armenians from their vision of a future Ottoman Empire – these factors – more then any real Armenian sedition – are what drove the CUP to act against the Armenians. In fact – the CUP representative to the Dashnak party Congress in 1914 – was Dr Shakir – who was already at work with the Special Organization massacring Armenians – and was the very organization that was fermenting unrest among Turks in the Caucuses and even further East. Shakir had a number of the Armenians from the Congress ambushed and killed after the meeting and it appears he already had plans to betray them.--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hovhannes Katchaznouni, The Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnagtzoutiun) Has Nothing to Do Anymore, Bucharest 1923, (translated from the original by Matthew A. Callender): (Mr. Katchaznouni was the first prime minister of the Independent Armenia). In the beginning of fall 1914, when Turkey had not yet entered the war but was preparing to, Armenian volunteer groups began to be organized with great zeal and pomp in Trans-Caucasia. In spite of the decision taken a few weeks before at the General Committee in Erzurum, the Dashnagtzoutune actively helped the organization of the aforementioned groups and especially arming them against Turkey..There is no point in asking today whether our volunteers should have been in the foreground. Historical events have a logic of their own. In the fall of 1914 Armenian volunteer groups were formed and fought against the Turks. The opposite could not have happened, because for approximately twenty years the Armenian community was fed a certain and inevitable psychology. This state of mind had to manifest itself and it happened. 24.211.192.250 04:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

We’ve already addressed the context of these comments which were intended to discredit the Dashnaks. That being said – considering the environment where the Sultan and Kurds and such had long preyed upon Ottoman Armenians and refused to aid them and do the things a government might be expected to do to protect its citizens…isn’t it any wonder why some might hope for relief against this oppressive regime? However – even with that being said – the majority of Ottoman Armenians saw themselves just as that – Ottoman Citizens – its all they had known for generations – and in fact many Armenians were very well integrated into Ottoman life. These Armenians had no interest in being ruled by Russia and in general many Armenians were highly suspicious of Russian intentions in regards to them and the region.--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Philippe de Zara, Mustapha Kemal, Dictateur, Paris 1936: After having accomplished the minimum of their duty as Ottoman citizens, the Armenians began to encourage the activities of the enemy. Their ambiguous attitude had certainly little to do with loyalty. But which Westerner would have the right to accuse them when traditions taught by Europe made the insubordination of the Sultan's Christian subjects the most sacred of obligations. An insubordination which was often sanctioned by giving autonomy, if not sovereignty. Nevertheless, how can anybody deny that in the opinion of the Turks, according to the law of all the states, the conduct of the Armenians facilitating during the war the task of the adversary, van be recognized as anything but a crime of high treason?..The Armenian committees, divided among themselves for internal issues, were often in agreement to facilitate the advance of the Russian armies; they were attempting to obstruct the retreat of Turkish troops, to stop the convoys of provisions, to form bands of francs!-tireurs. Mass desertions took place in the Eastern provinces; Armenians thus formed many troops officered by Russian officers. Here and there local revolts occurred. The leaders were setting the examples; two Armenian deputies fled to Russia. A literature of hatred was recalled. "Let the Turkish mothers cry..Lets make the Turk taste a little grief". The culpability of Armenians leaves no doubt (page 159). 24.211.192.250 04:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

This individual was obviously not aware of what sparked the resistance in Van and seems to also pretty much accept the Turkish propaganda at the time concerning Armenians lock stock and barrel. He obviously is relying on the Turkish position so really is not dealing with actual facts or a proper (full) understanding of events, actions and motivations.--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lieutenant Colonel T. Williams (Labour Party M.P.), Parliamentary Debates (Commons), London 25.ii.1924, vol. 170: The Armenians were very well treated for hundreds of years by the Turks, until Russia, in the first place, started using them as pawns for purely political purposes; they exploited them as Christians, solely as pawns. 24.211.192.250 04:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The Jews were very well treated for hundreds of years in Germany…my my what could have caused the Germans to hate them so? A quote from a member of Parliament? Are you serious? Have you heard of some of the uniformed BS these types often pontificate about? Come now…--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A. H Arslanian, British Wartime Pledges, 1917-1918: The Armenian Case, Journal of Contemporary History, Vol. 13, 1978:British promises to Armenians were exactly like their promises to Arabs in Syria, Palestine and Mesopotamia; they were made with the purpose of encouraging the war efforts of the Armenians, to influence neutral states in favor of England and to excite the separatist tendencies in ethnic minorities under the rule of these neutral states so as to make their enemy, the Ottoman Empire, collapse from the inside (page 522).24.211.192.250 04:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

This quote concerns British pledges made to Armenians 1917-18. OK. By 1917 there were no Armenians in the Ottoman Empire aside from the communities in Constantinople and Smyrna and some Armenians working for the German Baghdad railroad. So again this has no real bearing on the Armenian Genocide which was primarily enacted in 1915/16. These are just words – British promises – OK – I fail to see their relevance.--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

General Bronsart, Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, 24 July 1921: As demonstrated by the innumerable declarations, provocative pamphlets, weapons, ammunition, explosives etc., found in areas inhabited by Armenians, the rebellion was prepared for a long time, organized, strengthened and financed by Russia. Information was received on time in Istanbul about an Armenian assassination attempt directed at high ranking state officials and officers. Since all Muslims capable of bearing arms were in the Turkish army, it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by the Armenians against defenceless people, because the Armenians were not only attacking the sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the Russians, but were attacking the Muslim folk in the region as well. The Armenian atrocities which I have witnessed were far worse than the so-called Turkish brutality. 24.211.192.250 04:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Bronsart was a German who was correctly accused of involvement in and encouragement of atrocities against Armenians. He was well entrenched in the Ottoman High Command during the war and he directly participated in actions against Armenians working for the Baghdad railroad. He was known to be highly anti-Armenian and pr-Turk and made these comments in an attempt to clear himself of charges of committing atrocities against Armenians. Enough said really. These comments have zero credibility – they are a direct repetition of already discredited Turkish propaganda charges against the Armenians that were already rejected by Germans (in confidential correspondences) and all others. In fact there is quite a bit of documentation (from other German sources) of Bronsart’s fanaticism against the Armenians in an attempt on his part to ingratiate himself with the Turks during the war.

General comments on the above quotes…rather pathetic really – opinions (and pretty much just that) from dubious sources and most often considering periods of time either before the Genocide or after– none of which directly addresses issues concerned with the Armenian Genocide itself. The quotes I provided in a prior section do directly address the issue of Turkish complicity in the Armenian Genocide and the reasons for it and are considered scholarly sources which clearly establish the pertinent facts of the Armenian Genocide. While I have long advocated inclusion of the prior political environment and history – including the role of Armenian political parties and various issues associated with such – and agree that the current article is deficient in this regard – it is even more deficient in its lack of explanatory passages concerning the role and plans of the radicalized Young Turk party – their Pan-Turkism, their anti-Armenian bigotry, their zeal to eliminate ethnic and political rivals and their secret party apparatus which established control over the Empire and carried out a campaign to exterminate the Armenians under cover of war. As the quotes I provided above allude to – and as is proven with eyewitness accounts by the thousands and proven scholarship – this is the real and proven history – and nothing you have posted here – or could ever post here (if based upon fact) can counter these truths.--THOTH 01:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thoth, looks like you shot yourself in the foot, LOL lutherian 07:21, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

please! deleting other peoples entries does not help at all. it is not acceptable. if you want to contribute please get a nicname and sign in and add your signature. this way is better for all. this type of behaviour puts us in a bad position in unbiased aditors eyes and eventually ends up in the revesion and protection of the article.neurobio 23:55, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

All Turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the Armenian nation Hamparsum Boyaciyan, nicknamed "Murad," a former Ottoman parliamentarian who led Armenian guerilla forces, ravaging Turkish villages behind the lines, 1914. Cited from Mikael Varandean, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun."

heresay...at best the ravings of one individual...proves nothing...the proof is 1.5 Million Armenians killed and no Armenian Nation lefin Anatolia...any Turkish crying about Turks killed by Armenians when the Turkish denial of the Armenian Genocide - 1.5 million killed - is just ludicrous. There is no Armenian corrallarly to what the Turks did to the Armenians.--THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of 1914-15-16. Kapriel Serope Papazian, Patriotism Perverted, Boston Baker Press, 1934, pg. 38

Yeah...so? Thousands of Jews joined various armies in the fight against Germany in WW2 - does this justify the Holocaust?--THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Moslems who did not succeed in escaping [the city] were put to death... Grace H. Knapp, The Tragedy of Bitlis, Fleming H. Revell Co., New York (1919) , page 146.

When was this? Who is this? I am not familiar. However I would be very interested in knowing the numbers of Turks living in Bitlis after these times as compared to the number of Armenians. Enough said. --THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Many massacres were committed by the Armenians until our army arrived in Erzurum... (after General Odesilitze left) 2,127 Muslim bodies were buried in Erzurum's center. These are entirely men. There are ax, bayonet and bullet wounds on the dead bodies. Lungs of the bodies were removed and sharp stakes were struck in the eyes. There are other bodies around the city. Official telegram of the Third Royal Army Command, addressed to the Supreme Command, March 19, 1918; ATASE Archive of General Staff, Archive No: 4-36-71. D. 231. G.2. K. 2820. Dos.A-69, Fih.3.

This is 1918...revenge attacks...I think we already said that these occured (again this is post Armenain Genocide and is the actions of individuals - not a government) - interesting that the report says that the victims were entirely men...so women and children were sparred it seems...doesn't this violate some manifest that you posted earlier? --THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

[One of the main aspects of Armenian] "national psychology... [is] to seek external causes for [Armenian ] misfortune."..."One might think we found a spiritual consolation in the conviction that the Russians behaved villainously towards us Hovhannes Katchaznouni, First Prime Minister of the Independent Armenian Republic, The Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni,1923, Page 8

The point or relevance here? Should we make posts concerning the supposed racial psychology of the Turk? --THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Historical questions should be left to historians Mesrob II, Armenian Patriarch, 2001.

...yes and not religious personages...who should just but out. BTW - historians have clearly spoken on this issue...--THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(The Ottoman State) has used its right to defend its existence against Armenian organisations that had fomented and incited disorders and rebellions at the instigaion of the Russians by relying on Russian arms Leo (Arakel Babakhanian), Armenian historian, Turkahai Heghopokhutian Kaghaparapanoutiunu (The Ideology of the Revolution of Turkish Armenian), published in Armenian,1934, Paris)

An obviously politically motiated statement of some kind (if even a true one and not just fabricated) that is also obviously false. Ca anyne really say thst the Armenian Genocide - the killing of hundreds of thousands of women and children - by most brutal means - was in any way justifiable as a response against "Armenian oraganizations" who were disorderly or rebellious? (particualrly when it can be easily proven that the Dashnaks were in league with the CUP since at least 1907 and had ceased all counter government activities.) Would the USA have been justified in genocideing its black population because cerrtain black groups (such as the Black panthers) were "inciting disorders and rebellions" - can any human being actually believe this? --THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(The Armenian revolutionary committees considered that) "The most opportune time to institute the general rebellion for carrying out the immediate objectives was when Turkey was engaged in war" Louise Nalbandian, Armenian Revolutionary Movement, University of California Press, 1963

Nice statement - but funny it has no corralarly with reality. There was no Armenian rebellion in Anatolia during WW1 - none whatsoever. What is true is that the CUP used the cover of war to enable it to exterminate its Armenian population. --THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The entire Armenian Nation will join forces ? moral and material, and waving the sword of Revolution, will enter this World conflict ... as comrades in arms of the Triple Entente, and particularly Russia. They will cooperate with the Allies, making full use of all political and revolutionary means for the final victory of Armenia, Cilicia, Caucasus, Azerbayjan. ... [H]eroes who will sacrifice their lives for the great cause of Armenia.... Armenians proud to shed their blood for the cause of Armenia.... Hunchak Armenian [Revolutionary] Gazette, in a call to arms just prior to the formal declaration of war against Germany and the Ottoman Empire, November 1914 issue, Paris.

Ah the revolutionary fever and idealism of political party newspaper writers....another justification for Genocide I assume - "Insulting Turkishness" or some such? --THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Hunchak Committee will use all means to assist the Entente states, devoting all its forces to the struggle to assure victory in Armenia, Cilicia, the Caucasus and Azerbaijan as the ally of the Entente states, and in particular of Russia Hunchak Committee instructions to its organizations in Ottoman territory; Aspirations et Agissements Revolutionnaires des Comites Armeniens avant et apres la Proclamation de la Constitution Ottomane, Istanbul, 1917, pp. 151-153

1917. Perhaps I would have added to crush the Turks out of exsistence - depending on what I had witnessed during the years prior - and the losses among my family...--THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

From all countries Armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the glorious Russian Army, with their blood to serve the victory of Russian arms... Let the Russian flag wave freely over the Dardanelles and the Bosporus. Let, with Your will, great Majesty, the peoples remaining under the Turkish yoke receive freedom. Let the Armenian people of Turkey who have suffered for the faith of Christ receive resurrection for a new free life under the protection of Russia. Samson Harutunian, president of the Armenian National Bureau in Tiflis, in response to Czar Nicholas II's visit to the Caucasus, to make final plans for cooperation with the Armenians against the Ottomans. (Source; also cited in p. 45 of Prof. Hovannisian's "Armenia on the Road to Independence" as having appeared in the Nov. 30, '14 issue of Hairenik Taregirk, V, Boston 1947, p. 126))

Again the revolutionary zeal (primarily of those safely sitting in cushioned chairs far from the conflict)...so is the Armenian Genocide to be justified based on the words of idealisitc youth who weren't even Ottoman Armenians? And considering the massacres and mistreatment of Armenians within the Ottoman EMpire (culminating in total domestic genocide) who could blame Armenians (of the diaspora) for wanting to free their lands and people from the Turks. Get real. --THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Armenians greeted the Russians with ringing bells and with their priests dressed in their ceremonial robes. In this war, too, the Armenian people took their place beside the Russians... The war broke out and volunteers came from everywhere, from Armenia in Eastern Anatolia, from Egypt under Turkish rule, from the non-Russian areas of Rumania; all these people who were Ottoman subjects, familiar with Anatolia, gathered together and put themselves at the service of the Russian Empire Tchalkouchian, in a May 24, 1916 speech addressed to the Armenian Congress in St. Petersburg

see above. BTW - this same statment could be made concerning Jews volunteering for Allied Armies in WW2 and who formed into parisan units to resist the Nazis - so are you saying that this justifies the Holocaust? Again though it should be considered that (if true) this is a political speech with the intention of garnering support...--THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"The Osmanli (Ottoman) has yet to be heard." (The English have) "heard stories ad nauseam of massacres, of pillages, of the ravishing of women, but none of these stories have been corroborated by a single European eyewitness. Captain Charles Boswell Norman, "The Armenians Unmasked" (1895)

? This refers to what? (1895?) - and he is refering to "stories" he has heard...and then states that these stories have no cooraboration...--THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Neither political nor legal or material claims against present-day Turkey can be derived from the recognition of this historical event as an act of genocide. European Parliament, 1987 resolution

Is that so?...well if Turks believe this then why are they always bringing up the red herring that all Armenians are after is land and monetary compensation from Turkey...seems a bit of a disconnect here..--THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"And the unarmed Armenian villagers were forced to help the armed rebels at the cost of their blood." "If Turks were (thieves) and (brigands) like (Europeans claim, the) Armenians (would not) have had their prosperous lives, which continued until 1896 General Mayewsky, Ambassador to Erzurum and Van, commenting on massacres by Armenians in the late 19th Century, translated from the Russian language, "The Statistic of Van and Bitlis Provinces," Ottoman Military Printing Office (1914) 24.211.192.250 01:45, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Somehow this guy is either blind or highly biased to make such an obviously false statement...anyway again this concerns 1896...though we already know that the Europeans had acted on behalf of the Armenains pushing the Sultan for reforms....what would the need be for "reforms" if there were no abuses occuring? We know this history - one quote - does not change reality as known by historians.--THOTH 14:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thoth you were the one whining that those rejecting the genocide thesis dont provide any proof to support their case and instead spend the whole time attacking you. Well the anon above bothered to provide ample proof contradicting the genocide claims and just as I had predicted, you dismissed them using the silliest of arguments. When a witness contradicts the genocide claims, in your eyes he is a fake or paid by the government or whatever your vivid imagination produces. When the witness supports the genocide claim he is divine or sacred. This foolish reasoning of yours is exactly what has led to the tensions on this site, it will get you nowhere and FYI all the proof that you produce in my opinion and believe me, in those of many others belongs to the deep and very smelly end of the rubbish heap! lutherian 18:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not a single quote provided does anything whatsoever to refute the fact of the Armenian Genocide nor what is known and accepted by historians concerning it. In fact - very little of what was posted has anything directly to do with the Genocide whatsoever. You spek of witnesses and denying witness testimony - well there are thousands and thousands of pages of such testimony in the archives of Germany, USA and other nations...yet all you Turks do is deny them. You offer a few opinion pieces from dubious sources concening events not directly related to the Genocide and you claim to have countered the facts of the Armenian Genocide...hardly.--THOTH 21:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In a 2005 interview Berktay clearly states that what occured to the Armenians was without question a Genocide. He admitted that he had long been reluctant to use that word due to its political implications and automatic response by Turkey (and likely out of worry for being prosecuted or otherwise attacked etc) - however he has come to believe it is an accurate and the only accurate depiction of events. While Bektay does discuss the fact that various Muslims/Turks were killed and massacred in various times and places - and even by Armenians - mostly after the period of the Genocide - he also very strongly states that the killings of Armenians by the Ottoman Government cannot be counterbalanced or equated with the sporadic killings by various ethnic gangs (non-government entities) and that the numbers as well are entirely incomparable. Here is an interview from 2000 where he discusses some fo these issues (with some of my comments in parentheses).

`Armenians were killed by a special organization' An interview with Turkish historian Halil Berktay regarding the Armenian Genocide; Translated from Turkish exclusively for ANN/Groong Originally published in "Radikal" newspaper on October 9, 2000

Turkish original available on internet at http://www.radikal.com/tr/2000/10/09/insan/erm.shtml

At that time there were 1 million and 750 thousand Armenians living in Eastern Anatolia. (my note - this figure is for Eastern Anatolia only - not Anatolia/Ottoman Empire at large) The deportation order issued by the ruling military triumvirate was drawn up so as to include all the Armenians in the region, without exception. These things are documented in writing. There was no mention of massacres or slaughter. The provincial governors and garrison commanders were directed to deport the Armenians to the region south of Turkey's current borders. However, it's clear that, in addition to these official orders, separate, non-written orders were given to the most rapacious members of the `Teskilat-i Mahsusa' (`Special Organization'), who worshipped violence and were not bound by adherence to any normal moral code.

For the Armenians to be killed?

Yes. Historian Taner Akcam has demonstrated this in a very sound way. There was on the one hand a legal decision and implementation, and on the other another mechanism entirely that proceeded in an illegal manner.

How many Armenians died during the deportations?

At least 600 thousand.

How did they die? Who killed them?

Those who issued these orders had them carried out via a special organization, the Teskilat-i Mahsusa.. Think of it as a combination of the forces involved in the recent Susurluk scandal and the Turkish Hizballah organization. It is clear that Bahaettin Sakir, who operated as the Teskilat-i Mahsusa's man for Enver, Cemal, and Talat, set up death squads in the region. Some of these people were convicted criminals who were saved from the gallows and released from prison just to carry out such activities.. Do you know what types of people carried out these crimes? It was the equivalent of today's `Yesil', Abdullah Catli, and the Turkish Hizballah organization. The whole affair is that simple and clear. Bahaittin was just like today's `Yesil' or Catli. In addition to them, Turkish and Kurdish tribes also attacked the convoys of Armenians being deported. In addition to these actual massacres, there were the terrible losses caused by the deportations carred out in appalling conditions of deprivation. Everywhere in the Western world, there are photographs of these incidents which we can't bear to look at. The first time I encountered these visual records, I cried and could hardly breathe for several minutes. They are no different from the images of the concentration camps, or the massacres in Africa. For there are huge numbers of people in these pictures . Well, didn't the Ottoman state try and punish those officials found guilty of the deaths of Armenians?

Of course. These massacres were not the work of the regular Ottoman army and bureaucracy. Historically, in such situations, the regular army and bureaucracy hate and despise those `special teams' and gangs that carry out such deeds. We can see that the Ottoman army and bureaucracy understood just how terrible a thing this was , that they were repelled at the `special teams' set up independently of the governors and garrison commanders, and that there were even governors and commanders who issued an arrest order for Enver and Talat's man Bahaettin Sakir in 1915-16 and tried to capture him.

Did the Ottoman leaders make any statements to defend themselves?

The Ottoman regular army and state bureaucracy, both as a result of the repugnance it felt toward these events and in order to clear themselves before the rest of the world, tried as best it could to capture, try, and punish those responsible for this disaster. And there were definitely those who were punished. After the end of the war in 1918 and the Ottoman defeat and subsequent flight of Enver, Cemal, and Talat, who were the primary ones responsible, the parliament (Meclis-i Mebusan) established an investigatory commission just for this purpose. There was later a military trial in Istanbul. This was a famous trial. Books on it have been published in English and Turkish.

What were the losses of the Muslim population in that area during this same period? They may be 10,000 or 20,000. (ny note: elsewhere i have seen him say "no more then 10,000) But it's not a question of `They only killed a few, and the Ottomans killed a lot'. The issue is as follows: The activities of the Armenian guerrilla bands were generally localized, small-scale, and isolated. But for hundreds of thousands to die, there would have to be a population of this size, which couldn't be attained merely by wandering around the villages and hamlets. In addition, it's deceptive to turn the matter into a question as to whether or not Enver and Talat Pasha gave a written order to the `Yesil' or Catli of the day. They never did so, and no such document will ever be found. In this regard, the witnesses of the day are extremely important. There is a huge body of eyewitness accounts and visual material concerning the Armenian incidents that never reaches the Turkish public. Turkish public opinion is essentially ignorant of what the people of Germany, England, France, and America see and read.--THOTH 01:18, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

first let me answer like this There is a huge body of eyewitness accounts and visual material concerning the Armenian insucency that never reaches the the people of Germany, England, France, and America. World public opinion is essentially ignorant of what the people of Turkey see and read and listen from their fathers.

dear Thoth please. what you fail to understand is that The Armenians constituted a political group since they engaged in armed political activities, first to gain autonomy and then to found an independent state on the Ottoman lands. For this reason, they were not one of the four groups protected by Article 2 of the Convention. You also can not prove the intent of mass extermination despite Andonian fabrications. And that is why neither Armenia nor your precious Diaspora have the guts to apply to an international court. they know the outcome very well. They know that a court will only laugh at Dadrians "it is said that", "talat was seen saying that" "it is said that kemal said that", "a newspaper states that" rubbish. If it is so well proved go to a court my friend get your money get your recognition try your chances to get some land. If you cant go to a court stop crying and pointing people calling "DENIER". Just like a kid running around saying this man killed my father you can gain sympathy but court is the place to prove somehing. Ask your self "WHY THE HELL WE CAN NOT APPLY TO AN INTERNATIONAL COURT?" you could not go to a court when ottoman arhives were closed and after seing what has come out from the archives your last chance of an international court victory evaporated. Now your only credit is the islamophobia and some strong nations which doesnt want Turkey in Europe. try your chances.neurobio 20:40, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry - Armenians were an ethno-religious group within the Ottoman Empire that had no means of protection but was preyed upon by its own government. The CUP/Ottoman government instigated a campaign to exterminate these people and carried this plan out. This is what the history shows. There was no Armenian rebellion nor any serious 5th column or other activity that directly preceeded the Genocide that could in any way be used to justify such. There is no question of an international court as the plantiffs and defendents are no longer alive...what we are discussing here is a matter of history and the history is well proven. (and what happened to "let historians decide eh?" That didn't work so now its "let international courts decide" - is this the Turkish government position? Is the government of Turkey ready to be the defendent? If not then who is to be the defendent eh?) All of your efforts here and elsewhere to deny such are just that DENIAL of known Genocide - just as those who deny the Holocaust - using essentially the exact same arguments as you have - you are perpetrators of the crime and deserve no recognition whatsoever. I find it funny that you and Luther here try to claim Armenians as a beligerent because of some idealisitc writings in some newspaper...just like Nazi sympathizers who claim that because it was published that Jews declared war on Germany in 1933 that Hitler was justifyied in his actins agaunst the Jews - that the Jews started it etc - don't believe me -http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/jdecwar.html - yeah so you are in good company. And for you to claim that the intent of mass extermination cannot be proven is the biggest laugh of all...such things as the erradication of an entire people in the space of less then 2 years cannot be something accidental - and the eyewitnesses of the time prove that not only was it not just a byproduct of some failed policy - but that the admitted intentions of those involved was extermination of the Armenians - this has been shown time and time again. There is no question of intent - intent has been thoroughly established. --THOTH 21:47, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

it seems you dont know law terms in this case and it seems that you dont know much how int law works. As you should know Turkey has signed all documents regarding international law. So if you go and sue Turkey there is no option for Turkey but to attend. This is possible believe me just recently a Turkish citizen sued france (ah the bearer of the brave Armenian legion de lorient) for its crimes in Gaziantep. So we will se what happens. I will not lecture you about law. In a court you will se many defences and all of them are quite the same. A killer and an innocent persons says the same thing "i did no do it" So please cut that 7 (or I dont know how many) ways to denial nonsense.

Historical studies are essential to render understandable the incidents that took place in the second decade of the 20th century. However if a historian lacks education and/or experience in international law, that person cannot judge whether or not these incidents amounted to genocide. Like historians academics such as sociologists and political scientists who laboured on these issues, tend to describe as genocide almost any incident, which involves an important number of dead. However genocide as an international crime, can be determined only by jurists on the basis of the prescribed legal criteria.

and what happened to "let historians decide eh?". Let me tell you what happened Historians are harrased, stalked, booed, attacked and bombed by armenians so that not many decent people are left to study.

Any way i repeat it if you are so sure it is universally and inevitably accepted go to the court and sue. Turkey has no option but to defend.neurobio 22:16, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Whether the number is 250,000 or 1.5 million. Whether they were relocated and died or killed outright.

The fact of the matter is, those who perpetrated these acts are not alive today but those whose are descended from those who survived know the truth of how it affected the lives of their parents, grandparents and greatgrandparents.

What puzzles me is that Turkish government cannot simply state "Many died, and although we are not personally responsible, we promise that history will not repeat itself"

Its more complicated than that: they can't come to grips that their grandparents were responsible for such brutality; being murderers, rapists, torturers, pedophiles, etc. Its unfathomable for people living in Turkey where nationalism is highly encouraged and even the mildest stain upon Turkish heritage and "Turkishness" in general is taken with great umbrage. That's somewhat apparent seeing as how desperate some Turks become when they come here or when they edit the entire article by simply saying "its a lie" or "the Armenian Genocide fairy tail myth".--MarshallBagramyan 20:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Marshal obviously is not avare that the times are changing. Still What he says has some truth just like any nation Turks have hard time confessing their crimes. BUT what is more important is!

if you put Mnt. Ararat in your banner and still claim right in Turkeys land because there are historic churches there,

or if you invade azerbaican masssacre a whole lot of population and claiming that these lands are actually yours,

or if you present Asala terorist as heroes and give them protection and money in your country,

or if your country or people have links with terorist organisation PKK or terrorists are trained in your country and some of your people participate actively in PKK attacks,

or if you build monuments for assasins in US and Armenia,

or if you openly discuss that after recognition comes the compensation money and more importantly land demand,

or if you keep on denying that your ancestors at least had their own crimes you can not expect such a resolution. Other than that Turks are ready to say sorry. forgot to sign againneurobio 23:30, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It would be a senseless attempt for me to even address the gross inaccuracies in your statements. Just to begin with, 1) ASALA members were never harbored in Armenia since it was a Soviet Socialist Republic back then and were hence barred from immigrating there. 2)Go check up the ASALA article on Wikipedia and see that the claims to the PPK are accusations that have no citations. 3)Bringing up Azerbaijan shows how partial they are when it comes to atrocities being reported. Azeris are considered the bretheren of the Turks, since they are of Turkic origin, but how often do Turks speak about Azeri atrocities, how often do you hear them condeming the Sumgait massacre (Feburary 1988)? the Kirovobad massacre (1988)? the Baku massacre (Janurary 1990)? the Maragha massacre (April 1992)? Its simply turning a blind eye.

"or if you build monuments for assasins in US and Armenia,"

This is the one I get a real kick out of. Neuro here is alluding to Soghomon Tehlerian, the man who assassinated Talaat Pasha, the main organizer of the Genocide who was condemned to death in absentia by the Ottoman Military Tribunals. In Turkey, they probably omit that piece of info, and portray Talaat as a poor unsuspecting government official who attempted to live a peaceful life in Germany but was gunned down by an Armenian terrorist. See how distorted the truth becomes? They think that things such as ASALA and Tehlerian grew out organically, as if by chance and who arbitrarily targeted Turks because Armenians hate Turks. "Truth" in Turkey is as much as foreign a term as "justice". Despite their protestations, none of them are able to come up with some sort of solid proof to counter the claims made by witnesses, much less even address as the picture above as to why were Armenian women crucified in such an ordinary deportation?

Simple questions and witness statements are things they have difficulty addressing. I doubt I'm going to even hear a positive rebuke, much less am interested to hear what excuses they're going to offer.--MarshallBagramyan 00:23, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

even subconciously you are attempting to whitewash a terrorist organization, its simply amazing. The most notorious example of this is in the section on the Armenian legion which is chock full of pathetic attempts to whitewash what is arguably one of the most evil organization ever to exist on earth. No mention of those murderous thugs in French uniform slaughtering women and children by the masses (oh yeah, it never happened), suggesting that they saved Jews (Orthodox christians saving Jews? thats a funny one), and considering their leader a certain General DRO a national hero are in my view the most blatent examples of whitewashing. It is also said that former ASALA members, your Armenian bretheren have today been recycled and are members of the Armenian government. Should one be surprised? lutherian 05:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I fully condemn ASALA and its actions....satisfied? Now as to "whitewashing one of the most evil organizations ever to exist on Earth" well...lets discuss the CUP...and as for your other claims and such...proof my dear boy proof...though anything not directly connected with the Armenian Genocide is not a point of discussion here (that includes any events after it occured unless they are relevant to the issues of recognition and/or denial. However I just have to ask you for proof when you bandy about charges that memebers of ASALA are in the Armenian Government...lol...I think this desperate charge on your part (as well as your focus on ASALA) is fully indicative of the level you operate and the fact that you have no real ability to input constructively or factually concerning this article. --THOTH 15:04, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I beg to differ when you say that anything not directly connected with the so called genocide is not relevant. Everything is relevant here because they are all the result of this tragically misguided view that what happened during that period constitutes a genocide! As for the CUP, I have no doubt in mind that there were racist elements aiming for an ethnically cleansed anatolia but to go from there to accusing the Ottoman government of genocide is simply far fetched. I would appreciate a concise response from you unless you wish me to just skip it. lutherian 17:40, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"tragically misguided view" - sorry - does not compute. You obvioulsy have no business whatsoever contributing to this article as this is a non-fiction piece.--THOTH 18:09, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Marshall please just google a bit

1. Asala and PKK was/is in close contact. [6] , [7]. maybe you will be kind to add these to the Asala article.

2. Armenia loves PKK, PKK loves armenia [8],[9]

3. Asala terrorists are resting in your “cemetery of heroes“. They are regarded as heroes and people mourn for this sad loss. Please read this one carefully. [10] . who are these heroes? They opened fire on passengers in the airport killed 8 injured 82 in 1982. And this is should be a shame for any normal person!

4. Solomon is an assassin (fact) he killed Talat while he was buying his morning newspaper(fact). Shot him from the back (fact). Talat may be a criminal. He may be a monster. Still Solomon is an assassin. And I do not know of any other nation which has built a monument for an assassin.

Read these and ask your self do you deserve that? Do Armenian youth has to accept killers as heroes? You are giving a debate about how Turks are nationalist. They have such a crazy Turkishness myth. Are you any different? No let me tell you something you are just like twins with Turks even the look in your eyes. (is this an insult for you?). I know this very well I had two Armenian students under my supervision and met many others.

Please read the life of your national heroe. I think you already know more than this [11] But this time ask your self what he was doing in Bulgaria with his proud armenian legion ((millet-i sadika oh my))? How come there were 150.000 armenians in Russian army fighting against ottomans. Who was he fighting before 1914 even in 1901. How many muslims were killed in Van and before by him? Why he thought he can create a home for Armenians in 6 vilayets where they only constitute less that %30 of the population. and how was he supposed to achive that given the huge Turk kurd muslim population?

Then maybe I can comment on your picture where I see horsemen who are obviously not dressed in Turkish army clothes (just like the first picture in this article). One also has to ask when it was shot and are they really Armenian?neurobio 01:11, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And work your brain while you're at it neuro. ASALA is a defunct organization that died out in the mid 1980s because Armenians themselves were upset with their actions. Not to mention that many of its members including its leaders were also wholly opportunistic and driven by monetary gains rather than anything beneficial to Armenians which was fed for international consumption. Its leader was killed by Armenians and its dealings with the the PKK were the same hollow deals it later made with Meinhoff and the Phalangists. ASALA died 20 years ago, get with the program already.

2)And interview between the two? Yes, I see the hearts in their eyes and intimate affection for each other. Kurds have come to grips with their own past and their acts during the Genocide, if anything, Turks should take an example.

3)Many people consider the acts of ASALA, though tragic in terms of death and injuries, beneficial that the Armenian Genocide was brought back into international view. By the 1970s, the Turkish government had erased all mention of it and practically trivialized it to a nonevent. A matter of perspective, not fact. How many of your countrymen idolize Mehmet Ali Ağca or the Grey Wolves? Should I characterize all Turks as terrorists because some of them idolize and commit terrorist acts? What inane logic and what red herring.

4)I never denied that he was an assassin. But again, I question your logic. Chances are if Claus von Stauffenberg and his friends' attempts came into fruition, you would also criticize people who built statues you for them.

5)Andranik and his men left the Ottoman Empire long before the first World War. They despised how your Sultan ruled them and how unfairly Armenians were treated, on how they were arbitrarily raped, pillaged and massacred by Turkish forces with impunity. Its only natural that people want to defend themselves and disconnect away from such heinous and brutal leaders. What do you find offensive about that?

150.000 armenians in Russian army

??!

The Russian Army made several gains into the Ottoman Empire in the late 1870s. They obviously incorporated areas where Armenians lived including Georgia and Armenia. And like all the subjects of the Tsar, them being Armenian, Azeri, Russian, or Georgian, were all liable for military service during wars. What's so confusing about that.

The picture isn't a soldier on a horse (perhaps not even a horse, looks like a large mule) but a column of refugees. The picture comes from the German archives if you bothered to read the caption. Read its source: Der Bundesbeauftragte für die Unterlagen des Staatssicherheitsdienstes der ehemaligen Deutschen Demokratischen Republik. Its an authenticated and documented photograph from that time period.--MarshallBagramyan 03:28, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Armenians themselves were upset with their actions and thats why ASALA stopped??? LOL thats probably the funniest excuse I heard recently. ASALA evaporated because the Turkish prime minister of the time gave orders to wipe them out. One of their founders was hunted down and assassinated in front of his home in Cyprus, the other one died of cancer and the rest of the band of terrorists were tracked down by Turkish special forces and killed during a meeting in Lebanon. I am sorry to pop your bubble on this one or maybe you think this is yet another figment of the Turkish imagination? Maybe we should start questioning the existence of Turkey too whilst ure at it?

I see that you are even trying to excuse the fact that Armenians fought on the side of the Russians by suggesting that they were forced to do so? Boy there is no limit in your attempts to whitewash every single Armenian soul. In your mind there is no bad Armenian, its just impossible but its also what makes this whole argument a silly joke!

As for your picture, its funny that a "passion of the christ" snapshot suddenly pops up after 90 years! Where has it been all this time? lutherian 06:22, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, internal pressure broke it up. Read the book "My Brother's Road" which documents the absuses in ASALA and documents first hand evidence by members themselves who attested to the fact that pressures inside and member assassinations, conflict with the Dashnak party were the main contributors to its downfall. Hagop Hagopian was assassinated by four of his Armenian rivals who peppered him with several shotgun rounds on a street in Cyprus. Their actions of killing civilians and even killing and torturing its members. The "rest" simply melted away. Sorry but Turkey's precious MIT had no role in taking down ASALA. Its your little bubble that was popped away, sorry to rob you of guys a victory but the defeat of ASALA was just a propaganda ploy by Turkey's government. Turkey's self-congratulatory victory was just fed for internal consumption, and from all looks, you guys bought it.

Wow, popped up huh? Check back in the German national archives for hundreds of other unpublished photos and you'll see they've been there since 1915. The picture itself was published in a book in 1993.--MarshallBagramyan 18:23, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

LOL, whilst your at it, maybe it was the Armenians who also brought Ocalan to justice? Oh and im sure going to take a book written by an Armenian at face value! lutherian 04:28, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"What the Klingon has said is unimportant, and we do not hear his words." Leonard McCoy - stardate 3497.2. Planet Capella lV --THOTH 14:02, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This website why removes at external links? I want answer.--Tall Armenian Tale 22:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

System of a Down, a band whose all it's members and Armenian, have released several songs about the Armenian Genocide. Discuss. Emerald Flame 23:15, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

yeah, there is already a section for gay devil worshippers in the main topic, no need to repeat lutherian 17:10, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Someone's a little cwanky. Hakob 23:38, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

i belive that what soad is doing is one of the best thu=ings they could do. How else could they speak out against it. 02/16/07

Moved from Talk:Armenian Genocide

Looks like the usual band of Armenian suspects (and their devoted admirers) are back in business, turning this topic into a circus. Tsk tsk! lutherian 11:48, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I see one of the prominant members of the band of suspects is already busy in a revert war! Tsk tsk! lutherian 12:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Usual band of Armenian suspects?" -- Clevelander 12:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

yeah, with your greek orthodox sidekick, right? lutherian 12:17, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

U made that comment, lutherian, before i make any of my reverts... U knew in advance that your edit would be reverted, that's why u accused (in advance) anyone who would possible revert... I'm sorry, but keep your POV for yourself... (btw, don't say 'greek orthodox' as if it is an insult... LOOL) --Hectorian 12:24, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

not at all, I added stuff that had been deleted without any comments and out of the blue you guys come in and without any explanation reinstate the deletions. I dont know what your definition of civility is, but your attitude does not even come close lutherian 12:32, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

...and you would consider saying "gosh im sooooo scared that I need to take a dump this instant" to be civil? -- Clevelander 13:22, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that my reply is not civil, but who started the fire? lutherian 14:11, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You did. -- Clevelander 14:58, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lutheran is a disgrace to the community and deserves to have been blocked88.16.44.192 22:50, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from Talk:Armenian Genocide

Armenian-American keyboardist Derek Sherinian collaborated with duduk master Djivan Gasparyan on the song "Prelude To Battle", which Sherinian "dedicated to his great grandmother who fought the Turks in the Armenian genocide" as part of his 2006 CD "Blood of the Snake".

Thank you.

Tvccs 06:53, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Gee, i can just picture a super granny fighting ottoman soldiers, LOL. Good thing there werent many of these grannys, they could have very well led the turks to extinction, LOL. lutherian 06:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

wait a minute were you an unarmed folk that fall victim to a genocide or were you proud and glorious fighters agaisnt the "Turkish Yoke"? first decide that please...! neurobio 22:58, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My great-grandfather was a victim of the Armenian Genocide. He was also apolitical and worked in the textile industry, yet when Turkish gendarmes invaded his village, they nearly beat him to death. Needless to say, he did not deserve the beating he received. He would have died had my grandmother not thrown her body over his and screamed so as to get the attention of other people living in the area. -- Clevelander 23:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No doubt lots of innocent persons died in that period but to go from there and accuse Turks of orchestrating a genocide is stretching it. I see that prejudice and hostility towards islam is alive and well, have you heard the present day nazi pope's remarks? lutherian 05:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I will trust a muslim Arab or Iranian source on the AG 100000 time smore than Christian British source. Religion had nopthing to do with the Armenian Genocide nor anything modern related to it. Btw, the Pope didn't say anything factually incorrect.--Eupator 11:57, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My friend and I were just talking about that, actually. —Khoikhoi 05:25, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The question is: why in this time of extreme sensitivity, quote the debasing words of a 14th century christian emperor? Is it to, as he suggests, forge better inter religious relations? Who is he kidding? Even an idiot would understand that this is plain and simple provocation. Its reckless comments like this that has caused death and destruction throughout history. And since this world is full of idiots that have a natural affinity towards provoking, the cylce just repeats itself. Also your statement that he didnt say anything factually incorrect is also provocation. lutherian 12:32, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Go grab a tissue and wipe those tears. Better relations cannot be forged by historical revisionism, which you are trying to accomplish in the name of extreme sensitivity. To hell with that. Islam was spread beyond the Arabian peninsula by a scimitar and that is a fact, the Crusades were a retaliatory consequence. This is offtopic and has nothing to do with the AG.--Eupator 13:53, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

there you go again with your superiority complex rethoric. Beggers cant be choosers, you should know that better than anyone else! lutherian 15:47, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You're suffering from an inferiority complex (rightfully so might I add), why not cease begging to join the "Christian club"? You are part of Oriental culture stick with it, but feel free to continue selling doner kebabs and watermelons to the natives of the "Christian club".--Eupator 17:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

and you dare deny that you are a racist? lutherian 23:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As usual when you're set straight in your place you resort to ad-hominem insults. Keep up the good work, after all that's been your only contribution since you joined wikipedia.--Eupator 00:08, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Insults? You just made denigrating racist remarks and you are accusing me of insults? Do you suffer from selective memory? lutherian 05:35, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Did u hear what the turkish minister (director, or whatever) of religious affairs said about what the Pope said? We also know that Christianity is wrong, but we do not use bad language against Jesus... adding that the Pope should cancel his trip to Turkey, which is on November to meet the Ecumenical Patriarch. they said last year that "he is not welcomed" in Turkey. again this year they more or less tell him not to go there... is this 'religious tolerance'? Hectorian 13:58, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

you dare talk of religious tolerance with your christian club? The difference is your extreme hypocrisy, you supposedly preach tolerance but in reality its the other way round lutherian 15:47, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

These insults and flames are in violation of wikipedia policy (WP:ISNOT#Wikipedia_is_not_a_battleground); I suggest everyone simply cease commenting on this thread. Sdedeo (tips) 17:56, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from Talk:Armenian Genocide

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/10/12/europe/EU_GEN_Turkey_Pamuk_Reaction.php

--THOTH 00:14, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

and... neurobio 00:26, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think the point is defining the events as genocide. Turkey doesn't deny that many people died, even though they might disagree with the numbers and how it happenned. Orhan Pamuk never used the word genocide, he said that so many Armenians and Kurds died in these lands, which is exactly the same as the official Turkish position (even though the numbers vary). In any case no need to get hyped up over this though.. :) Baristarim 01:55, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Unlike Pamuk, I don't think the Turkish government says that over 1,000,000 Armenians died...congratulations to him regardless--MarshallBagramyan 01:58, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe.. Nevertheless, i think some people should avoid writing him to the genocide-supporter column so fast, since the debate has always been if the word genocide was appropriate, not the exact number of people that died. He could have easily used the word genocide, but he didn't, which, in essence, is the same as the official Turkish position. that's all I am saying at the end of the day, nobody should try to hijack his Nobel prize to their own ends - he had been a writer for thirty years and wrote over 30 books, and only one of them was overtly political: Snow, which was about the clash of ultrasecularism and islamic fundamentalism.. It is for this carreer that he was awarded the Nobel prize.. Baristarim 02:54, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding his uses of the word genocide, have you listened to this interview? [12] Fad (ix) 16:45, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, he seemed rather embarassed when on CNN they asked him what he thought of the French vote, he quickly switched subjects, LOL lutherian 09:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I watched it all and haven't heard him pronounce the word genocide (which is the heart of the debate), but again, that's beside the point. Well, he condemned the French vote very strongly actually, along with nearly all Europeans (including French Le Monde, Le Figaro, Ouest France, Liberation), Americans and pretty much the whole world.. In any case, I hope that some people are not trying to get hyped up over this, since, frankly, the French don't give a damn about what happened in the past to anyone but themselves (i live in france, i know what i am talking about :)).. It is sad, but it is the truth.. One: elections r coming up, two: they don't want Turkey in the EU. They are just trying to find reasons to stop Turkey's membership. It is a long game between two big countries, France and Turkey. i hope that the Armenian diaspora realizes that the true reconciliation for what happenned to all sides involved (Armenians, Turks, Kurds etc) because of France, GB and Russia's involvement, whatever you put a tag name on it, lies between the Armenian and Turkish people - not with other countries getting involved because of their geopolitical reasons.. Of course when u r living thousands of miles away and have a nice job and all, things might be hard to put into context for some people, but again, that's their problem.. As for Pamuk, he is a really great writer, but the fact that he made those comments just to consolidate his chances of winning the Nobel was rumoured since the last two years.. But it doesn't change the fact that he is a great novelist and let's remember that Nobel was not given to a writer who wrote "Turks are genocidal barbarians".. I personally think that Yasar Kemal deserved the Nobel more, but again that's my POV and if people want to hijack a Nobel prize for Turkish literature, that's their shallowness :))) Baristarim 02:21, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify something.. I read three of Pamuk's books.. Not one of them mentions, even remotely (except for an of-the-topic comment about a couple of Armenian churchs in Kars in his book Snow, which was about the clash between islamic fundamentalists and ultrasecularists in any case), anything about what happened during WWI and after.. That comment I mentioned had nothing to do with those events either.. He wrote many books where he elegantly deals with the clash of Eastern and Western cultures in Turkey, and not Armenia or Greece or whatever, but his city (Istanbul) and his country (Turkey), and exclusively that.. Go read his books, u will see what I am talking about :))). In any case, I would like to remind that he later affirmed many times that his remarks in that Swiss magazine were not made to talk about the massacres themselves, but to highlight freedom of speech issues in Turkey.. As one great French writer and philosopher whose spirit is long dead in France once said: I might not agree with what you say, but I will fight until death to defend your right to say it :)).. Orhan Pamuk is Turkish, an Istanbulite, he made those comments only so that his country can become better, not so that other countries can start insulting Turks.. Anyone who reads his books will see that he is a person who is simply in love with the rich culture of his country and city.. So that's the food for thought for the day folks.. :))) cheers! Baristarim 02:43, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Noone insults the Turks, but Turkey... the Turkish state insulted Pamuk (a Turk) by dragging him into a trial for "insulting turkishness" according to the newly created article 301, right? He wants a better Turkey, with free speech, but it seems that Turkish government does not, that's why instead of fixing or deleting dubious articles and laws in the spirit of the EU laws, they create new ones that remind the Middle Ages... Don't say that the French, or the Europeans in general, do not want the Turks in the EU... The truth is much different: if Turkey fullfills all the criteria and proves to be worthy of an EU membership, the Europeans will accept it. If Turkey wants "special treatment", all she'll get will be "special relationship", as Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy have said... Fair enough to me:) Hectorian 02:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Do I need to reiterate that it was a case brought by a private complaint?Nobody is creating new articles that remind of the "Middle Ages", 301 is the continous transposition of 159 of the old Penal code. Turkey's much more free than most EU countries, c 4 yourself 1 day if u want (abortion in Poland or divorce in Ireland, anyone?) A man I personally know, the Turkish Consul General to Paris, is in court in FR right now (since ~Sept) for publishing info on his blog that claimed that the events of 1915-17 didn't have a genocidal character. ouhhh, i don't see u act like Voltaire (see above quotation) though. As for Europeans accepting Turkey, 2 points: 1, unlike what some people wish it to be, it's Turkey's right to join the EU since it's been an integral part of Euro culture and life much more than Romania or Malta for example, TR is not asking to join, it's expecting the fulfillment of an inherent right. 2, you baffle me when u say that Europeans or FR will accept TR if it fulfills all criteria. If TR is accepted, it'll be the biggest, most populous and strategic country in the EU as well as have its most dynamic economy and young population, and have the most seats in the EU parliament (2 of Germany's MEPs are already Turkish). U know what that is called? power game. The day it joins the EU, it'll be stronger in the EU than Greece and whole Eastern Europe combined. That has no impact, right? :))))) And what is the criteria? Not being Muslim, as the Nazi-youth Pope and far-right parties of Europe mentioned? Or are we talking about some objective criteria here?? Pleeassee :))) In any case, let's not stray off the topic, my posts above were very relevant to this topic (about Pamuk and how can the needed reconciliation be done) and u diverted attention to something that doesn't concern at all (in the eyes of the people who truly rule the EU :)) Ar, Gr or Cy: the strategic power game between the big of Europe and Turkey in order to determine the balance of power the day Turkey becomes part of the EU - please be my guest&have a look at this [13]. food for thought :)))Baristarim 04:34, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It was u who talked about Pamuk wanting to make Turkey better (free speech) and the French not wanting Turkey in the EU. The problem is that u think of Turkey's accession to the EU as more Turks do, id est, not as a new EU-member state, but as a union between EU and Turkey... This is not the case, my friend... Turkey will have equal rights and equal obligations if she'll ever join... About Turkey an integral part of Euro culture, more than Romania or Malta, better wonder what exactly has offered to that culture... aren't things vice versa? Turkey decided to westernize its culture, not Europe to "orientalize" hers. apropos, who were all the european countries fighting for centuries? certainly they were not seeing the Turks as Europeans back then... Fullfillment of the criteria means: no demands over other states' territories (Estonia and Latvia resigned from demands over Russia, in order to join...), respect of international treaties (does Lausanne Treaty rings u any bell?), respect of protocols that has signed (Protocol of Ankara... still not valid, although signed! huh?), not intefierence of the army into political life (how many times the turkish generals appered on the turkish TV recently saying that they will "protect" the country and that they will not stop getting mixed in politics?), minority rights (e.g. Kurds), religious freedom (e.g. Ecumenical Patriarchate, Alevis, Catholics...), freedom of expression (old or new, article 301 is obviously crap...) etc etc... There are sooooo many things to be done in order Turkey to reach the EU standards... btw, calling the Pope a nazi?! Geeee...! at least the Pope killed noone... Quite the opposite of the man the Turks still worship (Kemal):). better be accepted well in Turkey, with no wolves around... Hectorian 05:16, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nevertheless, u missed my point about the power-game and the reconciliation. I truly care about this, since I consider that Armenians and Turks have been like brothers for centuries. That's why I have a different approach than bunch of french politicians who only care about getting re-elected.. Europeans killed more people fighting each other than Turks ever did. I also think that you should not be so prejudiced, eurocentric and orientalist, you missed all that I was trying to say above. Nobody (even un-known authors) went to jail because of 301 btw.. In any case have a good day. Baristarim 05:24, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I feel like I have to say this after all that ranting how such a bad boy Turkey is. Istanbul has more functioning churches (anevangelist church just opened two months ago in the district where i am originally from) than all of Greece, and definitely more than Athens, which still has none, because some racist people (or a lot? I am confused) that protest that having a mosque in their district would be un-Greek.. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones my friend.. Baristarim 05:31, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I did not miss your point, Baris... I believe that the Europeans do not want such a country to have much power (not such a nation. i am talking about a country-ruling class that does not meet the criteria). Can u ever imagine a Turkey having 120 (?) members of EU parliament voting in favour of the interfierence of the army in political life?! this is totally crazy and against the democratic values...! If Turkey is as funcioning as the other members, there will be no problem... Law 301 is still active, which means that people are afraid to say something that could be penalised (no matter if someone will go to jail or not, i guess that noone wants to go on trial...). I do not know how many functioning greek orthodox churches are in Istanbul, but i do know that the Greek Orthodox (the largest christian denomination there) were brutally driven out of the city... so, its pointless... About the mosque in Greece, maybe u do not know things correctly: the Greeks are not against the construction and operation of a mosque. they are against the demands made for that mosque... They wanted to built it just outside Athens International Airport with money from Saudi Arabia... we would never accept that! there is not even a church out of 'Greece's gate to the world'! and, of course, never with money from a country that, not only does not allow the operation or churches in its soil, but does not even allow the existance of christians inside its borders! i bet u know that this is true, since u've lived there... have a nice day u too:) Hectorian 05:59, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Because you see Greece as a model EU state? Do you know how much the EU pumped into Greece to prepare it for accession and then to maintain it as a viable member? Do you know how much over budget they had to go to make the last olympics a success? Irrespective of where a mosque was to be built, the point is, there isnt a single place of worship for moslems which speaks volumes about your openess to other cultures and faiths. lutherian 15:15, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

life is so full of Ironies. A Greek whose country just dumped many refugees into the see and virtually killed them, whose country opresses its Turkish minorities. A Greek whose county can not stand a single mosque, whose country support Terorism in its neighbour lecture us about Democracy. neurobio 11:45, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

...unlike Turkey however, Greece got away with it. How does that make you feel?--Tekleni 22:59, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

well, they are so miniscule that they can hide easily lutherian 15:15, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Every cloud has a silver lining... Greece made it into the EU anyway (of course they didn't get on the wrong side of Chirac). --Tekleni 15:21, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

:))) Baristarim 23:40, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

in my litle world full of hate and mediocracy I feel teribble... :)neurobio 23:43, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In order to explain a couple of things: Greece has many mosques in Thrace, state-sponsored economically speaking. The turkish (and muslim, in general) minority is in perfect condition and with full rights (the exact contrast with the Greek minority in Turkey...). Greece is an EU member, and that's a fact. Turkey wants to join, so she must meet the criteria (this is also a fact). and lastly, for the turkish users: do feel happy that a Turk won the Nobel prize! he deserved it!!!!:) and btw, he is the only nobelist u have... Hectorian 11:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't like Orhan Pamuk even he is the only one Nobelist. Please tell me the percent of Turkey people who wants join EU. Everyday percentage goes down, and I'm sure that EU is a Christian Pub.

Obsteel 12:46, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from Talk:Armenian Genocide

Gunduz Aktan in TDN lutherian 12:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

He says:

• This kind of France cannot bear to have us become an EU member. Let's have pity on France and let's abandon our bid for EU membership.

When's that joyous event going to happen?--Tekleni 12:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not too far away, when the Turks finally come to their senses and realize that they have no place in a xenophobic club. Actually, the status quo should remain a bit longer so that Turkey benefits more from the structural reforms. In 15 or 20 years when the European health care and pension systems collapse under the weight of the ageing population, it will be time for Turkey to jump the boat. At that point we will probably see hoards of unemployed Europeans looking for jobs in Turkey, LOL. lutherian 13:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like science fiction... (or maybe indeed is!) Hectorian 13:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well 15 to 20 yrs is a lifetime, take Greece as an example, not more than 10 yrs ago it was in the middle ages. You can change anything if you have lots of loot lutherian 13:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually that was three millenia ago: Greek Dark Ages. Please check your math as it's off by a few zero's, and even then they accomplished more than certain countries in their Golden Ages.--Eupator 18:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was actually using a euphemism for the sorry state of greece in the 80's but it seems that you actually took it literally, tsk tsk lutherian 05:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry state? lol... Eupator is right, these were the Greek Dark Ages... But if u wanna find even Darker Ages in history of Greece, look at the years 1453-1821. Regards Hectorian 08:14, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

we saved you from military coup... why this ungratefullness. :))) ha ha.neurobio 10:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Karalol!:). Coup of 60, Coup by Memorandum, Coup of 80, Postmodern Coup D'etat... someone has to save himself, before claiming to have "saved" others... Hectorian 11:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

you did not even get what I am talking about did you?neurobio 14:46, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I did, be sure about it... Hectorian 12:24, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from Talk:Armenian Genocide

http://english.sabah.com.tr/3105A05C...FD0468E8A.html

"Orhan spoke falsely

Nobel winner Orhan Pamuk's mother, Şekure Basman, has commented on her son's controversial words after 1.5 years: "He spoke falsely."

Orhan Pamuk's mother, Şekure Basman, has commented on Pamuk's words; "1 million Armenian and 30,000 Kurds were killed." Şekure Basman said: "Orhan spoke falsely to a small European Newspaper. However, the Turkish press exaggerated his false statement. The government tried to cover it up, but the press scooped it up."

"My son said false things"

Orhan Pamuk's mother has commented on her son's words regarding the death of 1 million Armenians on Turkish land: "Orhan spoke falsely."

Şekure Basman has given an interview to SABAH Newspaper, as the mother of the first Turk to have ever received a Nobel Prize. Şekure Basman said: "I am very happy for my son but when I heard he won a Nobel Prize, I thought 'God knows what they will write about him this time...'. Orhan probably knew false things about history. I don't think he has much information about the subject. No one teaches these things in school. I myself have no idea about this issue. Orhan spoke falsely to a reporter from a small Swedish newspaper. However, the Turkish press overexaggerated his statements. Although the government tried to cover it up, the Turkish press scooped it up and took great pleasure from doing so. I think it is the press we should blame."

In spite of his mother's disaproval I congratulate Turkish writer Pamuk - who in spite of his aparently false notions concerning history...and in spite of his (self admittadly and comically ignorant) Mother's disaproval - has won the Nobel prize for literature this year. Turks should be delighted that the Nobel prize committe overlooked Pamuk's obvious ignorance and mistatements concerning historical issues (that no one speaks about or teaches in Turkey...) and instead aparently only chose to bestow the award based on the merit of his work alone....lol --THOTH 18:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The only reason why Pamuk won the nobel prize this year was for his controversial remarks and everyone knows that. The only reason you congatulate him is again because of those remarks (you probably wouldnt even have known he existed if it wasnt for those remarks). I have read his books, they are brilliant and I appreciate him for his talents, not the BS political trash that has elevated him to the stratosphere. lutherian 05:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from Talk:Armenian Genocide

Jean-Yves Yunet, journalist (France)

...We happened to be the witnesses of Khojaly massacre, we saw the dead — bodies of hundreds of civilians — women, children, old-age people and defenders of Khojaly. We managed to fly by helicopter, we were taking photographs of everything we saw around Khojaly at a height of a bird's flight. However Armenians started shooting our helicopter and we couldn't manage to finish our job. That was a terrible scene. I heard a lot about wars, about cruelty of German fascists, but Armenians went beyond them, killing 5 or 6 year-old children, innocent people. We saw a lot of injured people in hospitals, carriages, even in kindergarten and school buildings.

Obsteel 13:16, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If Armenians finds the turks defendless, they will kill definetly.. They are devil..

Moved from Talk:Armenian Genocide

Note: Taken from ASALA Info page

ASALA is NOT an active organization at this time, since it has served its purpose of raising awareness of the Armenian Cause.

“We find the information of the existence of the offices of ASALA in Armenia and Nagorni Karabakh currently to be inaccurate.”

ASALA (Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia)

The Orly Group 3rd October Organization

Description

Armenian group formed in 1975 with stated intention to compel the Turkish Government to acknowledge publicly its alleged responsibility for the deaths of 1.5 million Armenians in 1915, pay reparations, and cede territory for an Armenian homeland.

Activities

Initial bombing and assassination attacks directed against Turkish targets. Later attacked French and Swiss targets to force release of imprisoned comrades. Made several minor bombing attacks against airline offices in Western Europe in early 1980S. Bombing of Turkish airline counter at Orly Airport in Paris in 1983--eight killed and 55 wounded--led to split in group over rationale for causing indiscriminate casualties. Suffering from internal schisms, group has been relatively inactive over past four years, although recently claimed an unsuccessful attack on Turkish Ambassador to Hungary.

...

Terrorism as a weapon for dictating thoughts. Good way, really works!

Obsteel 13:28, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from Talk:Armenian Genocide

All of the so-called armenian genocide is based on reports of so called witnesses, while the claims of the people who say there were indeed armenians killed but there was NO genocide, i repeat no genocide base their claims on facts like THE OTTOMAN ARCHIVES. Those are the facts, you cannot base history merely on so called witness claims. For all you people claiming there was a genocide, look at your sources. Ask yourself, what does this mean? Don't just listen to stories, look up the facts!!

On the other hand i can't seem to find articles concerning the massacres the armenian militia's committed on the turks in anatolia and kafkasya.Here's a nice list for all you people, this IS based on facts http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/massacres/lists.html i think i might write an article about that since everyone seems to forget about that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.146.98.224 (talk • contribs)

Moved from Talk:Armenian Genocide

I could not see any reason for a genocide. Could a reason be added in order to complate the puzzle? Because without a reason, a genocide is nothing more than a self-destruction of the brutes.(88.240.114.200 18:56, 21 October 2006 (UTC))[reply]

Exactly. There is supposed to be a murder, so there should be a motive. Whatis the motive ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.215.16.198 (talk • contribs)

"Their main goal was to defend Armenian villagers from persecution and at the same time, disrupt the Ottoman Empire's activities in Armenian populated regions. However, their ultimate goal was always to gain Armenian independence. This can be seen in their slogan "Azadoutioun gam Mah", which literally translates as "Freedom or Death". These bands committed sabotage activities like cutting telegraph lines and raiding army supplies. They also committed assassinations and counter-attacks on Muslim villages. They helped Armenians defend themselves during village purges by Hamidieh guards. They were supported by Armenians and quickly gained fame, support and trust by them."

"Apart from thousands of Armenians who were drafted or volunteered in several different armies fighting against the Ottoman empire, and apart from those who were drafted in the Ottoman army prior to WWI [1], the fedayees fought inside Ottoman borders." here is the motive guys. taken from armenian militia article [[14]]. These armenian guys are so badly confused.

keep on guys. The Law is clear thoug. (from Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide)

Article VIII: Any Contracting Party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in article

III.

Article IX: Disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application or fulfilment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide or for any of the other acts enumerated in article III, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.

Here you see every thing is there for Armenians to apply. The Question that every Armenian must ask "WHY CANT YOU APLLY TO AN INTERNATIONAL COURT"?

let me answer for you. Aside from all your claims for race extermnination is being simply fake (which your historian know very well); the groups to be protected under the Convention mentioned in Article 2 are limited to four types, that is, national, ethnical, racial and religious groups. Lemkin, who had defended the inclusion of the political groups, suggested himself during the deliberations on the draft text that the political groups be left outside the scope of the Convention. Unlike Resolution No. 96 (1), neither the `political groups' nor the `other groups' found their way into the Convention text. This modification constitutes a highly important difference because history shows that the most frequently seen struggles -and the ones that claim the largest number of civilian lives- take place between groups with political aims. Accordingly, for example, the massacres committed in Cambodia by the Pol Pot regime causing the deaths of nearly two million civilians did not fall within the scope of the genocide definition given by the Convention. Similarly, the deaths that occurred in the framework of the October Revolution (1917) cannot be considered genocide. In line with many verdicts of the International Criminal Tribunal for former Yugoslavia, save perhaps some exceptional acts which will be judged in the future trials as genocidal, even the extensive Serbian ethnic cleansing in Bosnia-Herzegovina does not correspond to the definition of the crime of genocide.

Now read your Fedayee(armenian militia) article again and then go on playing in this open playground :) neurobio 00:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Um, these people were volunteers from other countries or had defected from the Empire long before the war began. I don't know who wrote that article but 1)Armenians never asked for independence and 2)small milita units cannot be said to have represented, political or otherwise, the entire population of Armenians living in the region. As for people not being "protected" by the convention, show me what crime a five year old child, a pregnant mother, or one month old had committed to betray the Ottoman Empire and I'll personally send you a concession letter.MarshallBagramyan 01:17, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately that is not true. Ottoman Armenians participated in this uprising if you could have at least read the link I have sent you about Armenian testimonies (it was totally an Armenian link by the way) you could have seen it. this is well documented not only by Ottoman documents but also from international documents starting from 1900 and that is simply the main reason that this case is not brought to a court. Dear Marshall we are aware that many innocent Armenians died and we are ready to face and deal with it. It is simply a shame!!! Just like a pregnat woman or a baby who is blown into pieces in Iraq or Palestine these people were the victims of a teribble war but if you keep on naming this conflict genocide we are drawn into radical opposition. We are ready to respect your deaths but what about our babies and mothers that were butchered by Armenian volunteers. Who will respect them? The real Denial is denieing that thousands of Armenians fougth a terible dirty war against Turk villagers. Until 1980 the silhouettes of curicified and burned Turk villagers were still on the walls of old houses in Erzurum. How are we supposed to forget that? You did not believe my personal family stories but how am I supposed to forget it? It is a shame that innocent Armenians perished between these crazy mans of Power. All these death people are hopefully in peace already but just like in the past some powers from inside or outside are playing with our people over and over and over and over again. neurobio 17:14, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

When German, US, French, British, Russian, Austrian and Swedish archives all document deliberate provocations to anger Armenians and subsequent massacres to "quell" "uprisings" then ywe all that Ottoman documents aren't worth ____ :) None of your statements are ever backed up on these imaginary uprisings and it only makes sense that you are calling out the "bias" card when you cannot even prove your own words. A pregnant woman being killed in a hail of crossfire between insurgents and US troops is much more different than picking her up in the middle of the night, forcing her out of her home, stripping of her clothing and have her walked endless circles under the sun. If you knew your history, you would know that Armenians never wanted independence from the Ottomans, they would have been satisfied with self-rule/autonomy in pertinence to Article 16 of the T. of San Stefano or 61 of Berlin. Erzerum was an Armenian majority town and the only people who got slaughtered there were the Armenians themselves.

I don't believe a single personal story you Turks propagate. Do you know why? Because no one, not a single source ever says that Armenians went out and slaughtered Turks en masse in 1914-1915. Its BS and you shamelessly are unable to admit it because its the other way around: most Armenians can trace back their ancestry to Turkey, my grandfather on my father's side was from Kars, my mother's side, my great-grandmother from Constantinople (another city which was teeming with Armenian volunteers :) ). The stories they tell me are obviously true because they are supported by other witnesses who weren't Armenians: Germans, Britons, Americans, Austrians, etc. The ones you claim are obviously fabricated or exaggerated. There's a reason why I'm not the only person who feels this way.--MarshallBagramyan 17:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just like there is a reason why i'm not the only person who vehemently disagrees with your views lutherian 22:08, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Heh, heaven forbid you guys actually retort something. Bothered to come up with an excuse as to what crime toddlers committed during the "uprisings" yet?--MarshallBagramyan 05:38, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Specific reason u want? Armenians killed Turks and Turks killed Armenians. Pretty simple! In addition, ottomans drove them from their homes and to be honest probably did what armenians claim what Turks did to them. Killed babies, mother etc... We gota believe that (and to be honest i believe those things happened) but when it comes to our side of the story noone is supposed to believe that? Marshal u point that no source suggests armenians killing the turks right? How about the ottoman archives? turks just printed them after armenians came up with such a claim? be honest!! Now what ottomans did was not right, but it was NOT a FU..IN GEENOCIDE!

Last thing I d like to add is that; marshall u sound so naive when u talk about american soldiers "accidentally" shootin iraqian civilians, a reminder of the vietnam war; take a look and tell me if these soldiers carrying this dead vieatkong dead soldier sounds like your "proud","honest" american soldiers: http://www.milliyet.com.tr/content/galeri/tamsayfa/50yil/default.asp?id=12

Ever seen the movie "Platoon"? I like the observation they make there; "The first thing lost in war is innocense" My point? There are "unproud" moments in wars... It is a fact, noone is proud of it but thats what happens in wars... What your people havent killed any turks to get independent and free? ahh yea i forgot armenians didnt want that! well if they didnt then what are we discussing? cuz then it would simply mean that armenians didnt see themselves as a nation, and therefore was no armenian nationality back in the ottoman empire! Hence it was only turks/ottomans killin each other!! I know it doesnt make sense, but it was built up from your conclusions! It wouldnt matter tho since you have a prejudiced perspective. I mean afterall im a barbarian, a turk! Heh if it wasnt for my armenian, greek neioghbors in istanbul, i would be prejudiced also!!! Wont u consider all of them as back stabbers since after a war breaks up and armenians,greeks were the ones who betray us and join enemy forces!! ```ProudTurk

The logic is actually the otherway around - the Turks wiped out the Armenians and only after that - 1917-1918 - did some Armenians take retribution against them. The Holocaust wasn't the product of war-time casualties and sugarcoating this under the paint of collateral damage smacks right against the line of reality and delusion - the latter of which many Turks persist on residing in.--MarshallBagramyan 23:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yea right, ottomans/turks just decided to do sometin different for a change and killed armenians! Forget whatever the fuk they teach u in armenia and ask yourself which is more possible; "Kill and risk security on your eastern border, close to your enemy, by killin a bunch of minorities?" or "Kill the majority, when they are in war with another country (when they are weak), help the enemy of your "enemy" to get your own country and freedom?" Which makes more sense? Isnt the second scenario sounds more likely to happen? Havent a so many countries earned their freedom by helping the enemy of their ruler empire? examples are so many...

```ProudTurk

It is easy to setup many photographs from archives whic taken by some unknown people.I am a Kurdish and I have live evidences. My relations also have been killed by Aremenian rebels at same time.May father was born at 1907 at Sarikamis. At 1915 early spring Armenian has attacked their willage and killed one paralyzed and his old aunt which is could not run. This example has been repeated by my old father till he died. This example shows how much Armenian was out of rules. The tragedy is bilateral and initiated by Armenian. Why Armenian not sueing France or Russia. The Russian was occupied the eastern Turkey while 1877-1878 Ottoman-Russo war and Armenian was the Russian alliens. They was equipped and armed by Russian and promised the independant greate Armenia. The Armenian was uprised and was out ruled.There was World War I and environment was quite unappropriate for living.There was lack of food and infectional dissaes and harsh living conditions. In these conditions some new non experianced Ottoman Pashas was issued some laws (Techir Law) which is not applicable. Because it was proven that Ottoman army was also unable to transport the power and maintain the law enforcement. Enver Pasha tried to move third armay from Erzurum to Sarikamis at 3'rd December 1914 till 5'th Jan-1915. The result was tragedia and 96.000 of 156.000 soldier has dided because of diseases ,cold and stavration. They was defeated without facing Russians. The fact is that if you can't transport your army at such short distance how you transfer Armenian in even worse conditions? Unfortunately tragedia repeated itself. Turks can't apply systematic genocides and holocust,their character is not sound for this. I accept many Armenian was suffered but you also might accept Armenian was not so innocent as the example I give you initially. I don't want to explain what torture has been applied these two relations but any one can't kill anybody in such conditions and age. Amenians commited many killing scenarios in Kars and Erzurum willages.

The Armenian should sueing Russia and France. Because these two of Armenian alliances has left them suddenly and without remedy. They were supported and uprised by these countries and left alone by these countries. If they were not cause this now all Armenias were living in Turkey borders like other minorities.

This conflict should be left to historian ,they should study the case and clarify the case. Politic could not decide about it because their business is getting more votes and make profitable business.Turkish history could not be judged in any country parliment. Should be judged by historian.

By Muhittin Karakurt

The images are tooken by well known people such as Armin wegner, who witnessed the tragedy, no one cares about the photos there just there to show how the Armenians suffered, whether it was a genocide or massacre the turks owe us a apology we have yet to receive anything this shows how disgraceful the Turkish government can be. Nareklm 22:14, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Today(22 dec) is anniversary of Sarıkamis. 90.000 Turkish solder had been tranfered to Kars to save Turkish citizens from Russian and Armenians. All of those solders had died. Weather was snowy and very cold. They got frozen. They had to walk on foot through Sarıkamıs (a very snowy valley), because it was urgent duty (Urgent duty because armenians were killing defendless turks :( ). Unfortunately this walk had been their end. I will not do comments about this artical because there will be no change.. I tried before and nothing changes. They copy paste some strange and very long assays from some books to me. Assay like some English man reported this, some Greek reported that. Why these English guys didn't report killed turks. Is it because they are English?

This is frankly outrageous. (Personal attack removed) Armenian women and kids, Christians, were killing defenseless Turkish savages in the uniform!

Now, I thought that there might be a place for Turkey in the EU - until I found THIS discussion. I never realized that the genocide of Armenians committed by the Turk, well-documented, photographed, talked about by everyone event, part of works of speeches by everyone of any repute or disrepute, from Winston Churchill to Adolf Hitler, with survivors and their grandchildren of the genocide scattered throughout the world now living in every European and American city - from St. Petersburg in Russia to San Francisco in America, so I never realized that this, a documented historic fact, is a subject for any debate.

This is relevant to the article by any chance? I removed one of your sentences for WP:NPA. Try not to say things like "bloodthirsty genociders and their descendants".Baristarim 00:44, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't get what your trying to imply Sarikamis took place around 1920 i suppose stated on the battle of Sarikamis if its the same, the Armenian genocide is 1.5 million estimated killed and 2,000,000 Armenians removed from the Ottoman empire and 750,000 Assyrians persecuted by the ottomans total mayhem broke out during the genocide. There was many militias and armies that fought back but not under government rule after they were murdered by turks this started during the Hamidian massacres but obviously both sides suffered. Also you can't compare what militias do and governments there is a big difference if you want to compare government ruling to what militias do there is just too many things as what is happening now. The Sarikamis Anniversary is not well documented if it was it would have been discussed much more but it doesn't seem to be. Nareklm 06:27, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If this is genocide, what is this migration thing??.. Why didn't they killed Armenians directly. For example cutting throat is much easier and more economic then traveling 600 km, right? (see Hitler he is much more economic. he directly burns them - no need to bury and spend bullets.) It is meaningless 600km migration. This is what I know : Before that migration, as you know, Ottoman was in war. (European countries decided to delete us from maps), Soldiers in Ottoman army were doing their military service maybe more then 10 years. I don't know maybe you watched the movie Cold Mountain, the story is same : while you are doing your military service , somebody else who is not doing military service f.cks your wife :)) . Yes Armenians were f.cking turks' wifes while they were fighting against enemy :)). Armenians were enemy inside nearby Turk's wife :)). As you know, Armenians refused to join the army and they became terrorist and gangs. After this long war, Ottoman didn't unleash their soldiers.. Do you know why? because Ottoman knew these soldiers will attack to Armenians to take revenge because they betrayed us. So they decided this deportation plan to protect Armenians. If Ottoman wanted to kill Armenians why they lived together with them 600 years. They say Ottoman murdered Armenians.. No, Ottoman protected them. They lie.

Perhaps if you actually read some (real) books on this subject you would understand the answers to your questions. In the meantime - considering the ignorance you have just expressed - you clearly are not knowledgeble enough to contribute meaningfuly here. I find it sad how easily the ignorant accept the propaganda fed them and then attempt to preach and spread it to those of us who know better. I feel sad for you. --THOTH 04:15, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I should real books of what? Armenians' or Turkish one? I think you should read some Turkish books little bit. I am not asking a diffucult questions here .. My questions are easy.. We know your propagandas, dont worry.. I also feel sad for you. This article is full of imagination.. (It is sad that.. It is believed that.. Most people think that..) And you give me preach..You are all facist against Turks..— Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.235.38.49 (talk • contribs)

It is not Turkish vs. Armenians, it's Turkish against the world. I can understand you don't want such a disgrace in your history books, but it just happened, accept it. It's in every history book around the world, just not in the Turkish. Are we all fascists? Think about it before you accept your countries vision on the matter. High King of the Noldor 00:15, 27 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No it is absulately not all World!!. (Lebanies because many armenian living there, France also like that, It is political issue, political games.Armenian loby.) I think your world is so small surrounded by Armenians. You do here a propaganda. Turkey will go to Lahey soon. Yes all world facist against us. I believe to that. They think we are Arabic (we are not). And they hate Arabs also. Turkey is very fastly developing country.. They afraid of Turkey. That is why they accept this kind of propagandas..--Onur 18:50, 27 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We are talking about Armenians,, First of all They are dangerous,, they threated artist Antoinio Banderas just because he accepted to be ATATURK (World Number One Leader!!!!!) in the film about Ataturk's life... And you know ASALA ???? terorist organization?? Throughout its history, the ASALA assassinated 31 Turkish diplomats and embassy staff.. And they thread many famouse foreign people who doesn't accept genocide. You say here "all world accepts".. Go away!...--Onur 20:58, 27 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I assure you that there are more Turks then Armenians, if there are any, here in Belgium and the genocide is accepted here too. I am not a fascist, nor do I consider you Arabic, nor am I afraid of Turkey. I can accept your argument that Armenians threatened Antonio Banderas, but compare it to actors that play Adolf Hitler and get theats for that, I don't approve either of them. I know ASALA and yes they are terrorist, and yes they should be brought to justice, but I think you should look at yourself first. If that is terrorism, so was what Turkey did in Armenia and with the Kourds. If you can accept that everyone should be brought to justice, we can continue here.High King of the Noldor 01:53, 2 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

DONT EVER COMPARE ADOLF HITLER WITH ATATURK..

As I already said it is political games. In that years Armenian population was around 1.3 million, and they say turks killed 1.5 million Armeanian. What about the Armenian population in Armenia, Kudus, Beyrut, France.. They all immigrated from Turkey. Most of them immigrated themself. Because they affraided turk. The reason why they affraided is Armenian gang.. Armenian gangs killed civilians.. Even child and baby everybody who is human (including arabics kurds..).. Yes some individuals (including arabs and kurds) also killed Armenians to get revenge but it is not ottoman empire.. It is not Ataturk. What is the problem with kurds? Here in Turkey we are getting married with kurds. There is no difference. [user:onur_prg]

I didn't get a single proof from these Armenians. Their case is always based on some fictional stories told them from generation to generation. Exegerated! And moreover, there is always a good paid scholar on the Armenian side, advocating them. Paid good. You should be thankful to Ottomans for your existence of today. If Ottomans had act as the Spaniards, then there would be no Armenian, no Bulgar, no Greek or no Serbian. Ottomans just tried to save your butt as described above by my friend.

First off im Armenian, no one ever told me about the genocide, i researched and educated my self from reading books, articles, and historian and scholar references that "generation" thing is a myth from your government to brainwash people like you into thinking we make these things up open your eyes, Armenians are not the only ones who claim this the Kurds, Greeks, and the Assyrians too. Nareklm 22:11, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ohhh Yess Kurds.. They are always opposite to us.. Because they hate Turkish goverment. What is Assyrian?

Understand my friend. If Ottoman Gov. in Istanbul didn't deported Armenians to south, then there would be more and more lost from both sides. In the end, there would be no Armenian left to tell any stories. 85.96.36.116 18:15, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The facts & the question:
- We would need a 4km2 land and have to dig 2 meter deep to hide the 1,500,000 corpses.
- It would take 1 year to do the job with 100 modern excavators.
- I don't want to calculate the time, shovels and manpower needed to do the job.
- Incineration is not an option with the 1915 technology. Moreover, I don't want to mention the calorific input value (fuel) needed to do the job.
- In the light of the above facts, where are the mass graves of these 1,500,000 people that are said to be massacred by bloodthirsty Turks?
Waiting for objective answers. Do not post some undependable news portal or forum links please.--85.96.104.205 16:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You would not need to hide them. The rain and weather, combined with bacterial decomposition, the scavenging of jackals, dogs, ravens, hawks, and various other animals, probably would have obliterated most of the corpses within a year (a few more for the bones to dissolve away). And don't forget that many corpses were piled up and burned or dumped into rivers. Just take a look at the photos.. The Myotis 02:56, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't knew that dogs, jackals, hawks and various ! other animals have appetite for bones... Yet, we are talking about 1.5 million human here. Do you have any idea how many bones would it make! Furthermore, dumping into river would not make bones disappear.. If you had any idea on what you are talking about you would be aware that bones do not decompose with bacteries. To my opinion, there is no such mass grave, so genocide of 1.5 million human is not true.85.102.184.166 21:13, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Where are the 6 million jews? so you deny the Jewish holocaust? Nareklm 22:09, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Where are the mass graves? they are kept dugged well in Turkey's land. Whenever one is found, the Turkish gov steps in and makes sure it doesnt exist. [[15]] Chaldean 00:07, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the Jews were incinerated in the ovens. Yet, there were mass graves as well. These are facts. Did Ottoman's had incinerators in 1915 or before? No, I don't think so. Regarding other point; We are talking about a really big land here. Have you ever seen 1.5 million people gathered together? You can not hide such mass graves even if you wanted to. I didn't understand "whenever one is found, Turkish gov makes sure it does not exist..." Perhaps you are watching too many conspiracy movies. It has been about 100 years and you say that all the villagers, all the army, all the police, all the people, all the media, all the governments since these 100 years are so well organized and keeping this non sense big secret from whom!?. I'm a "Occam's razor" person and to me, a genocide of 1.5 million human never took place. Oh, and to remind "Do not post some undependable news portal or forum links please."85.96.36.116 21:24, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You want more sources? here [16], [17] look at those pictures, there rotten bones most are probably camouflage in dirt, i hope you don't expect a living person to pop out of the sand. Nareklm 21:29, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also many Armenians were forced out of there homes to the Syrian desert thousands, there not all in turkey its going to take centuries to find all of them. Nareklm 21:31, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I repeat again: "Do not post some undependable news portal or forum links please." Thank you.85.96.36.116 22:08, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, Dogs and Jackals are perfectly capable of crushing most of the smaller bones (ribs, jaws and lighter limb bones) and cracking open even the heavy leg bones. After that, there really is not that mush left to hide. The bones become scattered, partially or completely covered in earth, and hidden by whatever (at least in the Northern provinces) vegetation happens to grow. By that time, one would not notice any remains unless standing directly above them, and even then, probably could not recognize them as Human bones (and certainly not as Armenians). The bones would eventually dissolve as well, and though this would take a bit longer, they undoubtedly would have dissolved away in the 90+ years they have been sitting out in the sun and rain. And, out of curiosity, where exactly are the bodies of the 2 million (or whatever the number was) Muslim soldiers and civilians I have heard so much about dying in that same time period? If the events of the time where as chaotic as I have heard, there should have been no time or manpower available to carry most of the bodies home for burial.

Do you really believe what you say? 1.5 million humans consumed by dogs and jackals in few years and nobody noticed this. No photograph. Nothing. They all vanished. OK, just photographs of some 10s or 100s of people. There is a big mass grave of muslims died in WW1 near Erzurum area by the way, estimations are 1 million human.85.96.36.116 07:01, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, if there was time to dig a mass grave for that app. 1000 Muslims, why is it so unbelievable that conscripts and labor battalions could not have done similar work for a similar number of Armenians? Second, I would appreciate it if you would at least read through the article. You seem to be under the impression that we are saying the entire Armenian population was rounded up into a giant crowd and simultaneously massacred with bayonets. The article states very clearly that the majority of deaths were caused en-rout, that is, most Armenians died while being marched south, allowing the bodies to be quite sparsely scattered. Except when the soldiers butchered their changes with bayonets all at once, or when the victims were gathered into an encampment to starve, the bodies were not worth collecting into piles. Since most groups of deportees probably would have numbered around a hundred, it would make no sense to expect larger numbers of corpses. Second the article states numerous eyewitness accounts of large graves (see the American consul who reported thousands of Armenian corpses dumped into ravines) and, considering how rare cameras were and how difficult it was to use them in the field in that day and age, and the percentage of corpses burned or dumped in rivers, the fact that any photographs of the events exist is fairly lucky. As a side note, just how could we see a photograph of several thousand Armenians killed? Unless bodies are stacked into a giant pyramid, you can only photograph a few dozen at a time. And yes, I do believe the forces of nature could consume that many corpses into basic bones in a few years, though this would depend some on whether conditions, scavenger populations, and how concentrated the bodies were. The Myotis 00:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The number of muslims died that I mention was for WW1 + Turkish War of Independence. To me, marching people to south in summer time of 1915 during a terrible war can not be considered as a genocide. Yet, some of those people were uprising against Ottoman Empire, killing muslims etc. So, we can not basically say that nobody was harmed from both sides. Can we? I don't think that you really believe that 1.5million Armenians were killed by 100s by 100s. It would make 15,000 different locations. Wow! Are you aware what this number means? Do you know how many villages in Turkey? Moreover, cameras were not so rare as you think in those days. If there were any noticeable view, I'm sure that it would be photographed no matter from which side. Terrible things happened to both sides. This is for sure. But both were not genocide.81.215.112.174 15:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent link to understand the issue:
http://www.tsk.mil.tr/eng/uluslararasi/armenianissue.htm
85.96.36.116 17:21, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Killing on both sides nulls a genocide thesis? Hardly. The main reason that genocide victims don't fight back is because their weapons have been confiscated (as was certainly the case in 1915). What happened in Bosnia is by the most legal of definitions considered genocide, despite the fact there were plenty of armed Bosniaks and Croats fighting against the Serbian army. The Jewish brigades and volunteers fought against and invaded Germany during WWII do not null what happened in the concentration camps. It would not matter if there were Armenian revolts in every city (as clearly that was not the case) what was done to the civilian populace, the women, children, the elderly, and the disarmed noncombatants, would still have the event officially classed as genocide. Consider this question; if almost all the Jews in Germany had been rioting in the streets, attacking German officials, and generally trying to overthrow Hitler, would what happened to those who in Auschwitz no longer be considered genocide? Would those who died, even the women and children, be considered prisoners of war, seditionists who were simply trying to be contained? Would their emaciated conditions and hard labor be seen as the unintended consequence of the inevitable supply shortages caused by the war? I don’t think so.

P.S. I don't think think I have to remind you that the entire area of the massacres was under Ottoman control. It goes without saying that they would not have taken photos of their own victims, nor would have allowed photogaphers of enemy nations to view massacre sites. The Myotis 02:44, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do not post entries unrelated to this topic please. Instead, you are free to start your own topic. Thank you. 85.96.36.116 18:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"I don't think think I have to remind you that the entire area of the massacres was under Ottoman control." I am Australian, I came into this topic with an objective untainted view. It's no doubt that thousands of Armenians died, and so did thousands of Turks, so naturally as a byproduct of war, you'd expect to find graves for 50 or so people, as have been found. But for 1.5 million? You say the area was under ottoman control, so the mass graves were covered up. Yet weren't the arab nations under ottoman control as well. How did they manage to gain independence, if they were under 'control'. You say dogs and jackals ate the bones of Armenians, yet you find small graves of 10-15 people, and post it on this page as if it would bring Armenia salvation.

I not sure who you are, but where did you get 10-12 statistics? Most Armenians didn't have graves, but were scattered, dropping off as they marched south, many other being dumped in rivers or ravines, the rest killed and left to rot where they stood. I'm sure some were buried, or driven into caves, but you would have remembered, if you had been paying attention, that most were not. The Arab revolts happened far to the south of the massacre sites, particularly early in the war. The majority of Armenians died in 1915, whereas the Arab revolts did not even start until 1916.The Myotis 00:52, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The websites are neat, it's so cool that Turkey has its own website! Good job guys, maybe now you can get in the EU!

I tend to prefer primary documentation for my history though, as collected by American eyewitnesses (not Armenians or Kurds or Turks). How much arguing and questioning until these contemporary American newspaper articles are made to disappear?

SAYS EXTINCTION MENACES ARMENIA; Dr. Gabriel Tells of More Than 450,000 Killed in Recent Massacres. 600,000 DRIVEN INTO EXILE Unless Neutral Powers Intervene, Says Nubar Pasha, Almost the Whole People Is Doomed.September 24, 1915, New York Times. [18]

500,000 ARMENIANS SAID TO HAVE PERISHED; Washington Asked to Stop Slaughter of Christians by Turks and KurdsSeptember 25, 1915, New York Times. [19]

TALES OF ARMENIAN HORRORS CONFIRMED; Committee on Athrocities Says 500,000 Victims Have Suffered Already. NATIONAL PROTEST URGEDSeptember 27, 1915, New York Times. [20]

TELL OF HORRORS DONE IN ARMENIA; Report of Eminent Americans Says They Are Unequaled in a Thousand Years. TURKISH RECORD OUTDONE A Policy of Extermination Put in Effect Against a Helpless People.October 4, 1915, New York Times. [21]

800,000 ARMENIANS COUNTED DESTROYED; Viscount Bryce Tells House of Lords That Is the Probable Number of Turks' Victims. October 7, 1915, New York Times. [22]

SPARE ARMENIANS, POPE ASKS SULTAN; Following Report from Constantinople, Benedict XV. October 11, 1915, New York Times. [23]

MORGENTHUA URGES AID FOR ARMENIANS; Ambassador Appeals to Americans to Save Them from Annihilation.May 15, 1916, New York Times. [24]

SLAUGHTER IN ARMENIAAugust 6, 1916, Washington Post. [25]

Difficult to make Turkey look any more guilty... I didn't even know there were any Armenians left in Turkey until you people did what you do and made Mr. Dink so famous. Or maybe he's still alive, it's an elaborate hoax, because I don't have any pictures of his bones? Or he was planning an uprising, yeah a revolution, to destroy the government with treason and terror and eating Turkish babies? An Armenian Lobby™ CONSPIRACY to DOMINATE the world with the Russians, so they can eat all the babies together, invent genocides, and kill themselves just to frame the noble Turks?

What's all this about "TOTALLY didn't kill 1 point 5 million Armenians, like, gosh!" What, 500,000 murders would give you some kind of higher moral ground? Word?

Now you're not guilty of murder by any means. That's fine, it's history, you don't inherit crimes you haven't yourself perpetrated or endorsed. Problem is, your creepy nationalism makes you hold yourself accountable; see how that works? You've got this conflicted guilt thing, where you're personally proud of a past that you yourself didn't actually participate in, so you're in turn perceiving yourself persecuted by the guilt you insist on inheriting.

It's not your guilt. It's not your fault. But your nationalism is offensive to my Western sensibilities; and your ignorance and indignation are magnificently entertaining.

Bernard Lewis (born May 31, 1916, London) is the Cleveland E. Dodge Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University. He specializes in the history of Islam and the interaction between Islam and the West and is especially famous for his works on the history of the Ottoman Empire.

Lewis is one of the most widely read scholars of the Middle East, whose advice is frequently sought by policymakers.

In a November 1993 Le Monde interview, Lewis said that the Ottoman Turks’ killing of up to 1.5 million Armenians in 1915 was not "genocide", but the "brutal byproduct of war". A Parisian court interpreted his remarks as a denial of the Armenian Genocide and on June 21, 1995 fined him one franc. Since then Lewis has stated "There is no evidence of a decision to massacre. On the contrary, there is considerable evidence of attempt to prevent it, which were not very successful. Yes there were tremendous massacres, the numbers are very uncertain but a million may well be likely," arguing that "the issue is not whether the massacres happened or not, but rather if these massacres were as a result of a deliberate preconceived decision of the Turkish government," and that "there is no evidence for such a decision." He thus believes that "to make Armenian Genocide, a parallel with the holocaust in Germany" is "rather absurd.
85.101.61.3 17:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dr. Justin A. McCarthy is an American demographer, Ottoman Empire expert, and history professor at the University of Louisville in Louisville, Kentucky. McCarthy is known for his controversial challenge of the view that there was an Armenian Genocide. 85.101.61.3 17:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have never seen such horrifying images besides that of the Jewish Holocaust. Slowly starving a person to death is a cruel way to kill a person. The Turkish Government, whether it is Genocide or not, must officially recognise their crimes against humanity and apologize for the suffering they have caused to the Armenian people. Germany has apologized to the Jews, I say it is required of a modern nation to take in to thought of their crimes, and apologize. Odst 05:02, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

first of all you are stupid because you compare us with germans..

I think what British ethnographer William Ramsay is not so much relevant neither for the armenian genocide nor for the status of the armenians in ottoman empire. He can only describe what he saw during late 19th century. At that time ottoman empire was quite an oppresive regime for all minorities in the empire beacuse of the fear of disintegration, thats true, but that doesnt reflect exactly centuries long ottoman rule of Armenians..User:Laertes d|laertes d]] 19:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Yo dude, sign your talk thingy!! you see that sentence in bold that says "do not copy text from..." right beloe that, there's this inscription that says "sign your name: " click on those 5 wierd looking thingies next to it. Odst 06:48, 2 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

dude, if i didnt do what you are telling me then i guess there shouldnt have been something like that, "User:Laertes d|laertes d]] 19:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC". When i edited, it seems i erased some part of the signature ..Anyway thanks for passing by..--laertes d 09:26, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh? I thought you were one of those people that copied what others did... That's what I used to do! lol Odst 00:01, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nowadays a propaganda started against Turkey.. Showing Ataturk as same as Hitler.. Are you crayz?.. What is your aim. To change history all ever ???. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.101.5.191 (talk) 10:52, 11 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Actually notable past life specialists have fully proven that Hitler was in fact Ataturk in a former life...cute little mustache was added later BTW...wtf are you talking about anyway? nevermind --THOTH 18:49, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

First of all your statement has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Ataturk did not come into power until after AG and, while he was arguably a very bad leader, I did not see anyone comparing him to Hitler. If you want to discuss your Dear Leader, you can go to the Ataturk article page.The Myotis 18:59, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In Turkey many people says these Armenians crossing the line because they are comparing Ataturk with Hitler. There are many f.cking propandas going everywhere and Armenians showing Ataturks as Hitler.. Am I right.? .yes I am gad dam right. Talk with any armenian here (I already did) and they know ataturk as a second hitler.. I think you wrote history all over again.. See they threatened Antonio Bandrass because he wanted to play Ataturk.. They told him they kill him if he accepts to play this role. Because Ataturk is a second hitler for them .. Is that right??..

Well, from an outsider's point of view, Hitler and Ataturk have some similarities. Hitler had the Hitlerjugend, Ataturk the Young Turks. They both were dictators (in the meaning that they had the power all for themselves, de facto). Hitler and his associates set up the Holocaust, Ataturk was one of the responsibles for the Armenian Genocide. So the comparison between them isn't completely wrong. The difference is that Hitler was much smarter then Ataturk, which made him much more dangerous. The Genocide of Jews was better planned and was done with better methods. So comparing the two is wrong indeed.High King of the Noldor 00:56, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please - this is a useless/pointless discussion full of factual and perceptive errors. Ataturk was in no way responsible for the Armenian Genocide of 1915 and thereabouts. His role in killing of Armenians during the (so called) Turkish War for Independence is another matter - but at this time I think it is a bit beyond our scope/focus here. Ataturk was a brilliant (visionary) and capable leader who through his actions ensured the establishment of the Turkish Republic. Hitler brought ruin upon his nation and the world and his ultra-racism (and that of his direct associates) can be held directly responsible for the Holocaust. Ataturk - while certainly not perfect - and not unsurprisingly was a man of many flaws (His autocratic nature being one and his adopting of policy that politically and socially marginalized both Armenians and Kurds which could be considered at least indirectly responsible for repressive actions and even killings of a great many Armenians and Kurds that occured during his time and after) - however, even understanding such, he cannot at all be seen as an equivalent to Hitler. We need to move beyond such generalizations and discuss pertinent facts and at this time a discussion of Ataturk is out of place in the Armenian genocide article. BTW - I was kiddign about the past life specialists etc above if you didn't understand that.--THOTH 16:08, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]