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A fact from Cheese-eating surrender monkeys appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 15 May 2004. The text of the entry was as follows:
The "Monkey" part likely refers to the tale of residents of Hartlepool mistaking a Monkey for a French spy.[1]
This is at the very least a synthesis of ideas not supported in any way by the (unreliable) reference backing it up. I have removed it. It seems likely to me that the reason "monkey" is in there is because monkeys are funny and the Simpsons is a comedy. While I have heard this story before, it is not well known in the States, and it seems highly unlikely that this is what the writers had in mind. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:09, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well I added it, and indeed you are correct, I can't back it with any particular source that is what the writer of the simpsons script was writing (Though I'll note it only says "popularized", not created.
However (1) Are monkeys particular known for surrender? Can't see where the monkey comes from if not something like this (and the story about Hartelepool is actually very well known, don't confuse "I don't know about it and neither do my friends" with "is not well known in the states")
I also added this, but it was removed. As to the phrase not being well known in the States, it was said by Willy, who's Scottish, and it's possible the tale actually originated near Peterhead, in Scotland. Linda (talk) 21:57, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(2) quote "The "surrender" element of the phrase refers to the perceived proclivity of the French to surrender in military confrontations." - I can't see any source from this which says it's where the writer got it from. etc.
I'll grant that the bit about "surrender" is not properly sourced, but frankly it just doesn't seem as unbelievable as your assertion about the Hartlepool monkey. (aside:I love that story, be it true or false, related to this or not, it's just funny) There is/was a perception among certain segments of the American population that the French are cowardly and surrender at the drop of a hat. American involvement in Vietnam after the French lost control, and French opposition to our lovely little war in Iraq probably helped to keep this perception alive. This item [1], predictably from Fox News, shows the attitude some folks had right before the war started, as does the whole Freedom Fries foolishness. The true irony here is that Matt Groening is known to be a liberal, and often pokes fun at Rupert Murdoch, Fox, and the Republican Party, and certainly never intended way back in 1995 that this phrase would be used in such a manner. Beeblebrox (talk) 06:32, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Not as unbelivable in your eyes you mean. As I said the story about the monkey is very well known (the Team mascot for Hartlepool football club is based on it), and I can't see any great plausible connection between surrender and monkeys. Are monkeys well known for surrender? Or could the relation be as my take, between the French and monkeys. I don't think the part needs restoring as it is unsourced, but no more or less so than the surrender part, the standard for inclusion you seem to be applying however is, "I agree with it", which is not wikipedia's standard. --81.104.39.44 (talk) 07:10, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I supplied a ref for the surrender part, and I added it to the article. I don't think there is a connection between "surrender" and "monkeys". As I said before, monkeys are funny, and the Simpsons is a comedy. Beeblebrox (talk) 07:26, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think you miss the point, your reference doesn't provide any basis for beliveing that is what the writer for the simpsons was contemplating when he wrote that line, no more than my reference for the Hartlepool monkey shows that is what he was contemplating either. In both cases looking at how we individualy interpret it and therefore asserting that this is the basis of it is original reasearch. As to the comment about monkeys being "funny", I guess we'll have to agree to differ. A statement which consists of "cheese eating", something the French are known for, "surrender" against something the French are known for and in your view the arbitary adding of Monkey because they are "funny" just escapes me. (I took a look through the Monkey article and guess what, no mention of the word Funny, Humour (Humor) or entertainment are made). Most people who encounter the story are intrigued by it and find it funny, the prospect of the writer having heard the story (which is very common) and reacting likewise seems totally plausible to me. But again it comes back around to that, it's plausible to me as is the surrender link, but is is documented in reliable sources that is the basis of the comment from the writer (for either part), No. --81.104.39.44 (talk) 20:14, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My point is that I believe it has been demonstrated that there are reliable sources demonstrating an attitude in America (where the Simpsons is written and the market it is primarily for) that the French are prone to surrender. I think that it is a logical connection with this phrase. You have provided a source indicating that a couple of English townspeople may or may not have mistaken a monkey for a Frenchman a few hundred years ago. I don't see a logical connection there. Monkeys have in fact been a staple of comedy films and television for some time, Bedtime for Bonzo, Every Which Way But Loose, Dunston Checks In, and the episode of the Simpsons where Homer gets a "helper monkey" being just what I could come up with off the top of my head. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:37, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In the episode I know (European version), Willie teachs English and says "Hello, mangeurs de rosbif à la gelée de groseille" ("Hello, redcurrant jelly roastbeef eaters"), although he still wears a striped jumper and a beret and a French flag hangs in the background. Éclusette (talk) 12:32, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
use of "opprobrious" to describe the phrase
Describing the phrase "cheese eating surrender monkey" as being an opprobrious comment (i.e. a disgraceful, outrageously shameful comment) is anything but: 1) point of view neutral; or 2) accepted by all as a fact (there are many who would agree with the tone of the comment). As such I am changing the phrase "and other opprobrious comments" to "and other similar comments" to convey the gist of the sentence - that is that this phrase and others like it have been used by American Media outlets - without using non-pov neutral langauge or polemic language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.49.150.115 (talk) 07:25, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
David Letterman?
I would have bet anything that David Letterman coined this expression in the '80s, but I can't find a source. But I'm pretty sure it predates 1995. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.229.1.107 (talk) 23:40, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
re: use of "opprobrious" to describe the phrase
If in fact "there are many who would agree with the tone of the comment", then it really might be nice if a few people acquainted themselves with some history. It's a revolting slur, as the 360,000 killed and wounded, and 1,9 taken prisoner in the Battle of France would tell you. As indeed would the nearly 1,7 million French soldiers who died in just the first world war, more than have died in every US conflict since the founding of the country. So yes, opprobrious would be pretty accurate. If you read actual history. 78.227.32.158 (talk) 15:56, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Dying in combat or "being taken prisoner" (AKA *surrendering*) is certainly no indication of bravery, at best it's a measure of incompetence, but more likely it's a measure of cowardice. The contrast to the US deaths is quite striking and only goes to prove the superiority of the US military, and of course the original point of the entire entry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.172.115 (talk) 00:56, 13 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Also the surrendering reputation is somewhat limited to the Anglo-American culture, making the translation of the word irrelevant to other languages."
Whoever added this would do well by providing a source. I'm from Belarus which last time I checked wasn't a part of "Anglo-American culture" and let's just say I've never heared anyone using the pretentious "Battle of France" title here, while I have heared people describing the Frech Campaign of WW2 and the subsequent widespread collaboration as a shameful surrender of one's homeland...109.126.164.184 (talk) 11:09, 23 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed on the above point, the French *did* in fact surrender with remarkable speed and then many collaborated with the Germans, including the deportation of Jews for the Holocaust. And then turned on the collaborators as soon as it appeared safe to do so. The French resistance was quite heroic but in tiny numbers. It's hardly a unique concept that the French are cowardly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.23.193.172 (talk) 01:38, 23 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
