Talk:Easter: Difference between revisions

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== The premise of the entire page is wrong. ==

I don't know your protocols.

I am a Christian, and things mentioned on this page seem almost totally Catholic (and maybe some Orthodox religions, and Lutheran churches go part way on these subjects), but not Christian at all.

Most Christians do not celebrate Passover, Pentecost (those are Jewish holidays), Lent, or Ash Wednesday. We don't know Pasha, whatever that is. We don't fast, and we don't do penance. Again, these are Catholic things, which the Bible does not tell us to copy. In fact, we were told in the beginning to not celebrate days, especially not Easter or Christmas. (Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.) Instead, Christians celebrate Jesus every day.

It would be much better to just call Easter a holiday celebrated by Catholics and some other faiths but leave most Christians out. Even some of the pictures seem Catholic or Orthodox. Many Christian churches don't even have a cross so that we don't start worshipping that. We also do not worship Mary or any saints (we Christians are all saints). Christian baptism must be by immersion. Catholics stopped doing that hundreds of years ago because one man was too sick to get in the water. We also don't worship a pope nor confess to a priest. Also, the Church is the bride of Christ. That means Christians, not nuns. Christians and Catholics are like oil and water.

If you have questions, I am ChristianLady5151 [[User:ChristianLady5151|ChristianLady5151]] ([[User talk:ChristianLady5151|talk]]) 03:26, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

:While you are perfectly entitled to it, your concept of what a Christian is seems a particularly narrow one. Wikipedia takes the broader position expressed in our article on the [[Christian Church]]. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 03:46, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

::My concept of what a Christian is comes from the New Testament. I didn't make it up. And, yes, it is narrow. "The way" is narrow. Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. [[User:ChristianLady5151|ChristianLady5151]] ([[User talk:ChristianLady5151|talk]]) 03:56, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

:::This article maintains the neutrality requirement of Wikipedia. It covers the wide range of Christian responses to the festival, including non-celebration. However, most branches of the Christian church do make some form of celebration. Based on the population figures given in the article [[Christianity]], that's at least 90% of Christians. This talk page is not the place to soapbox a particular strand of Christianity. Neutrality is expected here as well. [[User:Beeswaxcandle|Beeswaxcandle]] ([[User talk:Beeswaxcandle|talk]]) 07:40, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

::::There is very little on the page that is neutral. What caught my attention in the first place is the overwhelming amount of Catholic terms. [[User:ChristianLady5151|ChristianLady5151]] ([[User talk:ChristianLady5151|talk]]) 04:37, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

:::::I'm not Catholic, and most of that is very comprehensible to me, brought up in the Protestant tradition in Australia. You must know that Catholics regard themselves as Christians too, as do all Protestants and Orthodox members. Wikipedia cannot write as if they're not. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 04:51, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

::::::I think you miss my point. Catholics may consider themselves Christians, but Christians do not consider themselves Catholics. Catholics do everything differently than Christians that are not Catholic. Absolutely everything. When I was young, the only church where we were vacationing was Catholic. I got in line to take communion. The priest asked me if I was Catholic. When I said no, he pushed me backwards. That was not a Christian way to treat me, and it demonstrates just one of the differences. We even have very different Bibles. [[User:ChristianLady5151|ChristianLady5151]] ([[User talk:ChristianLady5151|talk]]) 05:08, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

:::::::I fully agree that the behaviour of a lot of people who call themselves Christiaan doesn't satisfy my idea of what Christian should do, but in Wikipedia we go on what [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] say. Most say Catholics are Christians. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 05:15, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

::::::::I am not trying to imply that they are not Christians, in that they do believe in Christ. But all of their teachings are different than "just plain" Christians. The page implies that we do all the things they do - far from it. "Just plain" Christians do not want to be "accused" of doing things Catholics do and we believe to be sinful. We should not all be lumped together. [[User:ChristianLady5151|ChristianLady5151]] ([[User talk:ChristianLady5151|talk]]) 05:24, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

:Catholics are Christians. SMH. Prots are so narrow minded [[Special:Contributions/166.181.85.58|166.181.85.58]] ([[User talk:166.181.85.58|talk]]) 01:35, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

== Ishtar ==

I think you forgot to add it’s pagan origins. This is 100% bias & should’ve been fact checked before posting. [[Special:Contributions/2601:58B:4600:6900:867:6ADC:310F:8189|2601:58B:4600:6900:867:6ADC:310F:8189]] ([[User talk:2601:58B:4600:6900:867:6ADC:310F:8189|talk]]) 03:01, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

:Agreed [[Special:Contributions/148.252.146.210|148.252.146.210]] ([[User talk:148.252.146.210|talk]]) 00:14, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

:The possible pre-Christian origins would be related to the European Goddess Eostra/Ostara, and not Ishtar. <ref>https://factcheck.afp.com/easter-not-derived-name-ancient-mesopotamian-goddess</ref> [[User:Captchacatcher|Captchacatcher]] ([[User talk:Captchacatcher|talk]]) 01:14, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

:No. Maybe the name and over the time some customs of different origin may have been incorporated. But Easter itself is biblical and was celebrated in the mediteranean (Palestine and modern Turkey/Greece/Italy/Egypt) before christianity came to the northern tribes from whom later the name may be transfered onto the existing festival. Also, not everywhere it is called Easter.--[[Special:Contributions/109.43.49.94|109.43.49.94]] ([[User talk:109.43.49.94|talk]]) 06:22, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

== Easter and Eostre/Ostara ==

@[[User:Indyguy|Indyguy]], you deleted my sentence in the paragraph about pre-Christian custom because you said "...that theory about the feast for Eostre was put forward only by Bede with no corroborating evidence from other sources, and that it is one of several theories as to the origin of the name." I thought this was supposed to be an encyclopedia, and this seems an unbiased addition. The Eostre page contains arguments made by historians/anthropologists for and against the idea that Easter is derived from Eostre/Ostara as a practice or word.

: Pre-Christian festivals around that time were related to the spring equinox, and the goddess ''[[Ēostre]]'' that the English term "Easter" may be derived from.<ref>{{cite web |title=This Is Where the Word ‘Easter’ Comes From |url=https://time.com/4738876/easter-word-origin-history/}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |title=Easter (n.) |url=https://www.etymonline.com/word/Easter}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |title=Ostara and the Hare |url=https://blogs.loc.gov/folklife/2016/04/ostara-and-the-hare/}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |title=Eostre and Easter. What are the origins of this Spring festival? |url=https://www.thefield.co.uk/country-house/easter-eostre-24035}}</ref>

Do you also believe this sentence on the same page should be deleted, since it is only one of several theories:

: The English term is derived from the Saxon spring festival ''[[Ēostre]]''; <ref>{{cite book |last1=Gamber |first1=Jenifer |title=My Faith, My Life, Revised Edition: A Teen's Guide to the Episcopal Church |date=September 2014 |publisher=Church Publishing |isbn=978-0-8192-2962-5 |page=96 |language=en |quote=The word "Easter" comes from the Anglo-Saxon spring festival called Eostre. Easter replaced the pagan festival of Eostre.}}</ref>

Or this:

: He wrote that {{lang|ang|Ēosturmōnaþ}} (Old English for 'Month of Ēostre', translated in [[Bede]]'s time as "Paschal month") was an English month, corresponding to April, which he says "was once called after a [[List of Germanic deities|goddess]] of theirs named [[Ēostre]], in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month".<ref>{{cite book|last=Wallis|first=Faith|title=Bede: The Reckoning of Time|date=1999 |publisher=Liverpool University Press|isbn=0853236933|page=[https://books.google.com/books?id=yFsw-Vaup6sC&pg=PA53 54]|title-link=The Reckoning of Time}}</ref>

Or on the Eostre page:

: In [[Anglo-Saxon England]], her springtime festival gave its name to a month (Northumbrian: {{lang|ang|Ēosturmōnaþ}}, West Saxon: {{lang|ang|Eastermonað}}),{{Sfn|Sermon|2008|p=333}} the rough equivalent of April, then to the Christian feast of ''[[Easter]]'' that eventually displaced it.{{Sfn|Simek|1996|p=74}}{{Sfn|West|2007|pp=217–218}}

[[User:Captchacatcher|Captchacatcher]] ([[User talk:Captchacatcher|talk]]) 15:18, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

:@[[User:Captchacatcher|Captchacatcher]]: Having read your comments here and spending more time looking into this, I am modifying my position a bit. I have no problem with stating that Easter derives from the Saxon name for the month of April. I do think it is misleading to state or imply that the name for Easter was taken directly from the goddess's name because there's no explicit evidence for that and people with unfounded claims about the celebration of Easter having pagan roots and not being Christian (e.g., the comments regarding Ishtar on this talk page) might try to use that language to bolster their POV.

:Nevertheless, regardless of what we decide this article should say, the discussion of this belongs in the Etymology section, which already goes into it, rather than repeating it in multiple places. [[User:Indyguy|Indyguy]] ([[User talk:Indyguy|talk]]) 03:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

::This comes up so often that I wish we could add this to a FAQ. Please see the previous discussion in the talk page archives at [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Easter/Archive_1#Pesach_the_start_of_Easter?], [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Easter/Archive_2#Easter_a_Pagan_religion], [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Easter/Archive_2#%22Oestre%22_or_%22Hystera%22_?], [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Easter/Archive_3#OK_wasnt_EASTER_a_Pagan_Holiday_first?], [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Easter/Archive_4#Censorship_of_Pagan_origins], [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Easter/Archive_5#Pagan_origins], [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Easter/Archive_6#Pagan_Association], [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Easter/Archive_7#No_NPOV_Tag_Allowed_on_Article_on_Threat_of_Block], and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Easter/Archive_8#Easter's_pagan_roots]. [[User:Benwbrum|Ben]] ([[User talk:Benwbrum|talk]]) 14:34, 1 April 2024 (UTC)