Talk:Elizabeth II: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 22:49, 3 May 2003

Should be Succeded by: Charles (III)

...which is a bit POV if you ask me (some might say, "should be succeeded by a president"), but also fails to take account of the fact that Charles (if he gets there) may well choose to be George VII. I've put "Heir Apparent: Charles, Prince of Wales" for the moment, but maybe it should go back to blank. --rbrwr

I didn't mean it as, he "should" be (horrah lets drink a toast), i meant it as he should come next in line. -fonzy

Look, from all reports the Queen does her rather strange job well. However, doesn't the article lay it the superlatives on just a tad thick ... how can we know that she's so expert in world affairs if she's never publicly expressed any views on such? Anybody want to defend the article in its present form? --Robert Merkel 05:14 Jan 10, 2003 (UTC)

We know it from the biographies/autobiographies of James Callaghan, Margaret Thatcher, James Prior, Anthony Eden, Richard Crossman, Sir John Peck, etc etc.

Is there a more recent non-copyright photo available? Whilst she may have looked like that at the time of her inauguration coronation, she doesn't any more. --Robert Merkel 05:16 Jan 10, 2003 (UTC)

I note that for most figures in the royal family, wikipedia is currently listing as last names either "Windsor" or "Mountbatten-Windsor". I'm not sure if this is strictly correct. The 1917 letters patent said that "Windsor" would be the surname for anybody who needs a surname. It's my understanding, though, that anyone with an HRH does not, in fact, need a surname. Same deal with "Mountbatten-Windsor" as the surname for the Queen's descendants. Although this would be their surname if they somehow lost all their titles, these surnames are never, in fact, actually used. Who they are used by is non-royal descendants. For instance, Lady Davina Windsor is the daughter of HRH The Duke of Gloucester. Perhaps something clarifying this should be included in these articles? john 02:16 May 3, 2003 (UTC)

When we had the farce of articles about [[Charles Windsor]] pages, I checked with Buckingham Palace re the issue of surnames. Yes the do have surnames and yes the are used, when for example the banns are issued on the occasion of a Royal Wedding. According to BP, the wedding banns of Princess Anne for both her marriages called her Mountbatten-Windsor. Though the person could not remember, they thought Prince Charles was called Charles Mountbatten Windsor (plus his other christian names) when he was married. Periodically, the issue of royal surnames has been raised. Queen Victoria, for example asked her advisors to work out what her surname was. She was not amused to discover it was Wettin. Wettin remained the surname of her descendants until 1917 when both the surname and the Royal House name were changed to Windsor. They were again separated by an Order-in-Council in 1960 to give all of Queen Elizabeth II's descendants the surname Mountbatten Windsor without changing the Royal House name, which remained Windsor.

In actually having worked out their surname, the British Royals are rather unique. Most reigning royal houses haven't, but the do have them. They simply don't know what they are because they ordinarily don't use them. ÉÍREman 02:29 May 3, 2003 (UTC)

As far as Wettin goes, that's not exactly a surname. It's just the name of the place which the Wettins were counts of ages go in the early Middle Ages, which it was later decided was their surname. One might note, also, that the former German ruling houses' surnames are, in fact, what their titles used to be. Thus the members of the House of Prussia bear the surname Prinz(essin) von Preussen, not Hohenzollern. The members of the House of Bavaria are Prinz(essin) von Bayern, not Wittelsbach. And so forth. These are their legal surnames.

Getting back to the issue of the British Royal family's surname, here's something from a discussion on the newsgroup alt.talk.royalty, which purports to be a quote from the official Royal website:

"The Royal family name of Windsor was confirmed by The Queen after her accession in 1952. However, in 1960, The Queen and The Duke of Edinburgh decided that they would like their own direct descendants to be distinguished from the rest of the Royal family (without changing the name of the Royal House), as Windsor is the surname used by all the male and unmarried female descendants of George V.

"It was therefore declared in the Privy Council that The Queen's descendants, other than those with the style of Royal Highness and the title of Prince/Princess, or female descendants who marry, would carry the name of Mountbatten-Windsor. (In 1947, when Prince Philip of Greece took the Oath of Allegiance, he became naturalised, and assumed the name of Philip Mountbatten as a Lieutenant in the Royal Navy.) The surname Mountbatten-Windsor first appeared on an official document on 14 November 1973, in the Marriage Register at Westminster Abbey for the marriage of Princess Anne and Captain Mark Phillips.

"A proclamation on the Royal family name by the reigning monarch is not statutory; unlike an Act of Parliament, it does not pass into the law of the land. Such a proclamation is not binding on succeeding reigning sovereigns, nor does it set a precedent which must be followed by reigning sovereigns who come after. Unless The Prince of Wales chooses to alter the present decisions when he becomes king, he will continue to be of the House of Windsor and his grandchildren will use the surname Mountbatten-Windsor."

This would seem to suggest that it doesn't apply to princes and princesses. On the other hand, Princess Anne is a princess, and used the name Mountbatten-Windsor at her marriage, which is confusing.

A further discussion of the royal family's surname on the alt.talk.royalty faq says the following:

'On 17 July 1917, King George V issued a Proclamation which stated that the male line descendants of the royal family would bear the surname Windsor: from the date of this Our Royal Proclamation Our House and Family shall be styled and known as the House and Family of Windsor, and that all the descendants in the male line of Our said Grandmother Queen Victoria who are subjects of these Realms, other than female descendants who may marry or may have married, shall bear the said Name of Windsor

'A few months later, King George V issued Letters Patent on 30 October 1917 which limited the title 'Prince' and the style 'Royal Highness' to the children of a sovereign, the children of sons of a sovereign and the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales. HH Prince Alastair of Connaught (1914-1943), grandson of HRH Prince Arthur, Duke of Connaught (Queen Victoria's fourth son), became the first member of the royal family to use the surname Windsor in lieu of his princely title. It has been suggested that it was a misinterpretation of these latest Letters Patent which led to HH Prince Alastair (for such he was based on practise going back to the time of King George I's accession in 1714 and which practise was confirmed in Queen Victoria's Letters Patent of 30 January 1864; source: "The Princes of Great Britain" article in Burke's Peerage 1963 edition, pp xxvii-xxxii) being denied his princely title. However, as he was the son and heir of a peeress (Princess Alexandra, Duchess of Fife), he was allowed the courtesy use of his mother's subsidiary title and became Alastair Windsor, styled Earl of Macduff.

'On 11 December 1917, it was further decided by Letters Patent that: the grandchildren of the sons of any such Sovereign in the direct male line (save only the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales) shall have the style and title enjoyed by the children of Dukes.

'In 1952, Queen Elizabeth II confirmed her grandfather's decision that the royal family's surname would continue to be Windsor. Her Majesty declared on 9 April 1952 that it was: her Will and Pleasure that She and Her Children shall be styled and known as the House and Family of Windsor, and that Her descendants other than female descendants who marry and their descendants shall bear the name of Windsor.

'A few years later, HM The Queen modified this statement by issuing Letters Patent in February 1960 which stated in part: while I and my children will continue to be styled and known as the House and Family of Windsor, my descendants, other than descendants enjoying the style, title or attributes of Royal Highness and the titular dignity of Prince or Princess, and female descendants who marry and their descendants, shall bear the name Mountbatten-Windsor.

'Did this mean that the name of some members of the royal family changed from "Windsor" to "Mountbatten-Windsor"? Some people contend that the goal of this declaration was meant to not only change the surname of the children of HM The Queen but those of her male-line descendants as well. At Princess Anne's wedding in November 1974, Anne signed the marriage register 'Anne', without a surname. It was the registrar who filled in her names as 'Anne Elizabeth Alice Louise Mountbatten-Windsor'. According to a Buckingham Palace statement issued in October 1975, the specific addition of the surname 'Mountbatten-Windsor' was "the Queen's decision that this should be done". Further, HM The Queen consulted with the acting Prime Minister to confirm whether all her children would have the surname Mountbatten-Windsor. She received the following reply: "The effect of Your Majesty's Declaration is that all the children of Your Majesty who may at any time need a surname have the surnames of Mountbatten-Windsor." (Prince Philip: A Biography, by Denis Judd, London: Michael John, 1980, page 196)

'It would seem that the surname of HM The Queen's children is whatever HM wishes. Legally and constitutionally, however, the Queen cannot do as she wishes. The surname of the Queen's children is Mountbatten-Windsor in practise and has appeared three times: at Princess Anne's first marriage in 1974, on Prince Andrew's marriage register in 1986, and when the banns were read prior to Princess Anne's second marriage to Commander Laurence in 1992. (When the Prince of Wales married in 1982, he signed the register as "Charles P" and the registrar filled in his name as "His Royal Highness Prince Charles Philip Arthur George The Prince of Wales".) Nonetheless, the family name remains legally Windsor because there hasn't been any modification or clarification to the Letters Patent of 1960.'

So this would suggest that the surname, is, in fact, Windsor for anyone who has the title of Prince, so that it is only Harry's children who will likely be Mountbatten-Windsors. Or else I'm confused. In any event, the whole thing is rather confusing, no? john 07:13 May 3, 2003 (UTC)

Even the Palace when I contacted it was confused and had to check. Their best understanding was that it is correct to presume that all descendants of the Queen and Prince Philip have the surname Mountbatten-Windsor. I specifically asked about the Prince of Wales and the reply was 'yes, him too'. On the advice of the Palace I included that reference. Personally I would prefer not to, but some people on wiki are preoccupied with the issue of surname (and every so often, someone appears and tries to rename all royals via their surname!) so I thought it best, given that the Palace insisted that was the correct format, to include the MW surname, apart from anything else to discourage the renaming brigade who would see a strange surname that was different to the one they thought, and so back off.

As far as I know, the reason for the 1960 change was because of Prince Philip's unhappiness with the absence of his name as the name of the Royal House. It was to appease him that the Queen decided to reintroduce the concept of a separate royal surname, so that he would not feel left out and would be duly honoured in some way. It also occured at a time when there were extensive rumours as to the royal marriage's stability and in particular rumours of Philip's alleged infidelity. Incorporating Philip's surname was a way of counteracting the rumours by saying that rumours of a split were greatly exaggurated, with Philip being so central to the Royal Family that his descendants would have his name. As to Wettin, when Victoria for some reason asked her Private Secretary "What is my surname?" the reply she got back, after some checking, was Wettin, the advice being that that had been Prince Albert's personal surname. But, to borrow a Victoria-esque cliché, she was not amused and no-one dared mention it again. Edward VII certainly believed that was his surname. He believed that all monarchies would soon be swept away, and joked that he had pity for his descendants who would be stuck with such a 'god-awful name' when the throne was abolished.

PS: - sometimes on wiki you get people talking about topics who don't know much about them. It is great to find another 'name anorak' here alongside myself and Deb. My instance (here and elsewhere) on getting things right has irked some people who don't think accuracy matters. The more people wiki has determined to get things right and up to top encyclopædic standards the better. ÉÍREman 21:33 May 3, 2003 (UTC)

Anorak? Moi? Deb 22:12 May 3, 2003 (UTC)

My dear, wear one's anorak with pride! *grin* ÉÍREman 22:49 May 3, 2003 (UTC)