Talk:Huey Long: Difference between revisions

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== Edit warring ==

[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Huey_Long&diff=1153988474&oldid=1153988123 1]

[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Huey_Long&diff=1153988123&oldid=1153986403 2]

[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Huey_Long&diff=1153986403&oldid=1153984999 3]

[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Huey_Long&diff=1153984999&oldid=1153984367 4]

[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Huey_Long&diff=1153984367&oldid=1153969938 5]

[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Huey_Long&diff=1153969938&oldid=1153966185 6]

Pinging [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]]. Toa has already been topic banned from post 1992 American politics. If they feel the need to display the same pattern of behavior in pre 1992 politics you may want to have a talk with them. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 17:05, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

(EDIT) I realize that 3RR has not been broken yet, this is more of a preventative measure. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 17:21, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

:The discussion above, in which the other editor participated, strongly leaned towards this remaining, as have previous discussions. I’ve avoided violating policy here, but the editor in question - who has only a handful of edits exclusively to this page - is pretty clearly in the wrong here. Regardless, continuing to revert clearly isn’t going to resolve the issue in question. '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 17:30, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

{{u|HueyLong1893}}, feel free to discuss your reasoning here. I know you’ve participated in at least one past discussion. '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 18:21, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

:From your own article: Academics and historians have found difficulty categorizing Long and his ideology.[223][224] His platform has been compared to ideologies ranging from McCarthyism to European Fascism and Stalinism.[225] When asked about his own philosophy, Long simply replied: "Oh, hell, say that I'm sui generis and let it go at that."[21] Robert Penn Warren described him as a "remarkable set of contradictions".[199].

:So maybe it's not necessary to attribute left-wing populism to him at the beginning of the lines, if historians themselves argue about views, and Long used right-wing methods in politics.

:I propose to leave just the populist wing without specifying left or right populism.

:Also

:"Long's conservative streak was apparent during his crackdown on gambling and prostitution in the red light district in New Orleans after his breaking with Colonel Robert "Bow-Wow" Ewing who was a Long boss in the city. Ewing had ties to the gambling and prostitution industries in New Orleans and Long, coupled with his disdain for both of the industries, ordered state militia under Adjutant General of the national guard Raymond H. Fleming to "cut out the wide-open gambling" in the city" ( Williams (1981) [1969], p. 342.|)

:Long was a strident [[Isolationism|isolationist]] and [[American nationalism|political nationalist]] who opposed American intervention abroad and was a strong supporter of [[Tariff|tariffs]], with Long labelling himself a "tariff Democrat". Along with supporting tariffs, he advocated that the American government disassociate from European efforts to settle [[war debts]] and to grant independence to [[Philippines|the Philippines]]. Long argued that [[Standard Oil Company of New York|Standard Oil]] had backed rebellions across Latin America to install puppet governments that would be beholden to the company's interests. In 1934, Long claimed that Standard Oil was backing the Bolivian government [[Chaco War|to make war with]] Paraguay over the oil-rich northern [[Gran Chaco|Grand Chaco]] region after the latter had refused to grant favorable leasing terms to the company. ( [[Political views of Huey Long]] ) [[User:HueyLong1893|HueyLong1893]] ([[User talk:HueyLong1893|talk]]) 15:36, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

:Reading his books, and Gerald Smith's book, where he calls him a conservative. Long appears to be a right-wing populist rather than a leftist

:[https://thecrossandflag.com/smith_and_long.html#here "Share the Wealth. This was a catch phrase used by Huey Long to appeal to the great impoverished public, and that meant about 90 per cent of the people during the depression. His economic formula would make the present Republican Party look radical. At heart Huey Long was a Conservative"]

:Truth of the matter is that by the standards of the global history, there's virtually nothing that Long advocated-progressive taxation, free higher education, subsidies family, veterans' welfare, etc-that would be particularly bizarre for any respectable, conservative political establishment with modest emphasis on social stabilization to implement. Progressive taxation? Tory government of Robert Peel already set a precedent in the UK already in 1842. Free education and veterans' welfare? Already well-ploughed fields and practices by gasp, drastically radical, leftist regimes of both the French Third Republic and Bismarckian Germany during the belle epoque. Wealth Cap and wealth distribution? - such "leftist" figures offered to limit personal wealth like Bronislav Kaminsky, Kita Ikki, William Dudley Pelley and many other. None of those figures or polities are considered as particularly 'leftist' in their respective political contexts of the era.

:As for the wealth cap, already in Huey Long's lifetime, House Democrats Democrats (Wesley Lloyd, Washington, Jon Snyder, Pennsylvania) had proposed in 1933, before Long's famed Share Our Wealth radio address, a Congressional amendment of wealth cap up to $1 million in personal wealth. If this doesn't rebut your point on the account of both Representatives indeed having belonged to authentically 'left of center' side of political spectrum in the Depression-era US, in other conventionally paternalistic conservative societies elsewhere, wealth cap in broader, philosophical concept have long-preexisted in the form of sumptuary laws and other restrictions on private accumulation of wealth through frankly more arbitrary measures such as confiscations. [[User:HueyLong1893|HueyLong1893]] ([[User talk:HueyLong1893|talk]]) 15:42, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

::Sources in the article, including Brinkley (1993), identify him as on the political left. Berlet & Lyons (2000), p. 126 quotes him aligning himself on the left, saying he votes with the administration when it is left and against when it is right. See also the Share Our Wealth section, and his left-wing opposition to the New Deal.

::You're making a ton of personal individual value statements about individual beliefs, but that doesn't really matter and your own personal views on Long don't matter, either. We've had [tps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Huey_Long/Archive_1#%22Left%22 multiple] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Huey_Long/Archive_1#Left-wing_populist previous discussions] on the matter; there's a broad agreement he's on the political left. You're the only one trying to force through something otherwise. '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 15:45, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

:::Academics and historians have found difficulty categorizing Long and his ideology.[223][224] His platform has been compared to ideologies ranging from McCarthyism to European Fascism and Stalinism.[225] When asked about his own philosophy, Long simply replied: "Oh, hell, say that I'm sui generis and let it go at that."[21] Robert Penn Warren described him as a "remarkable set of contradictions"

:::Calling him left-wing populist is you individual value statements, but that doesn't really matter and your own personal views on Long don't matter, either. [[User:HueyLong1893|HueyLong1893]] ([[User talk:HueyLong1893|talk]]) 15:48, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

::::It's not a value statement. It's backed up by reliable sources and agreed upon by consensus. I would strongly advise you to revert to the status-quo, consensus version that has been agreed upon by editors for years. '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 15:49, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

:::::As a compromise, let's leave him just a populist without indicating whether he is left or right. For historians themselves have not come to this conclusion to the end.

:::::Before your intervention, for many years he was just a populist, the fact that a year ago you attributed to him a "left populist" does not make you the status quo. [[User:HueyLong1893|HueyLong1893]] ([[User talk:HueyLong1893|talk]]) 15:50, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

::::::That's not a compromise. '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 15:55, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

:::This is just an adequate compromise, reinforced by the rest of the material on this article. I would understand if you were opposed to the fact that I called him a right-wing populist, but I suggest leaving him just a populist, given that academics have not definitively decided Long's views.

:::I remember, it from this article:

:::"Academics and historians have found difficulty categorizing Long and his ideology.[223][224] His platform has been compared to ideologies ranging from McCarthyism to European Fascism and Stalinism.[225] When asked about his own philosophy, Long simply replied: "Oh, hell, say that I'm sui generis and let it go at that."[21] Robert Penn Warren described him as a "remarkable set of contradictions""

:::Right now, instead of specifying a neutral definition of a populist, without a bias in both sides of a political spector, you are imposing your view on Long, which contradicts one of the paragraphs of the same article [[User:HueyLong1893|HueyLong1893]] ([[User talk:HueyLong1893|talk]]) 16:00, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

::::You are just repeating the same irrelevant things over and over at this point. I would strongly advise you to revert to the consensus version and actually engage in productive discussion here. Why do you feel so strongly that you need to force a change that has been rejected numerous times before? '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 16:02, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

:::::Because you specifically made edits about the left populist, as can be seen from the editing history of this article. A lot of people have written before me about leaving him a populist, but it was you who decided to make him a left-wing populist according to your wish, which contradicts even the article itself and the opinion of the academic environment. And now you're also offering me to read articles about Long, where he is exposed as an evil populist in half of the articles, [[User:HueyLong1893|HueyLong1893]] ([[User talk:HueyLong1893|talk]]) 16:05, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

:Here's some additional resources:

*[https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/03/huey-long-was-donald-trumps-left-wing-counterpart/583933/ When Demagogic Populism Swings Left - The Atlantic]

*[https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/08/huey-long-was-wrong/ Huey Long Was Wrong - National Review]

*[https://www.npr.org/2019/07/30/746568840/huey-long-vs-the-media Huey Long Vs. The Media - NPR]

*[https://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/opinion/our_views/our-views-fdrs-restraint-with-huey-long-is-a-valuable-lesson-for-politicians-today/article_42ed2c84-09ef-11e8-8442-c714423cfd93.html Our Views: FDR's restraint with Huey Long is a valuable lesson for politicians today The Advocate]

*[https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/11/01/elizabeth-warren-bernie-sanders-fdr-229893/ What Warren and Sanders Get Wrong About FDR - POLITICO]

:Long is squarely identified with the left - specifically, progressivism and left-wing populism. There's no real debate on the matter. '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 15:55, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

::You offer me links to articles from Internet sources, in half of which he is considered a bad character.

::Here's also some additional resources:

::[https://thecrossandflag.com/smith_and_long https://thecrossandflag.com/smith_and_long.html#here]

::https://amgreatness.com/2021/05/02/the-long-shot/ [[User:HueyLong1893|HueyLong1893]] ([[User talk:HueyLong1893|talk]]) 16:03, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

:::…are you seriously citing “American Greatness”, a pro-Trump trash site, as a reliable source? '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 16:06, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

::::are you seriously citing "National Review", a neocon trash site, as a reliable source? [[User:HueyLong1893|HueyLong1893]] ([[User talk:HueyLong1893|talk]]) 16:07, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

:::::National Review is generally regarded as at least somewhat reliable. Not so for “American Greatness”. '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 16:11, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

::::::Actually, neither of these sources are reliable. Yikes. '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 16:13, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

:::::::Well, why refer to them. I would suggest that instead of messing with me and trying to ban me on Wikipedia, just agree to a compromise, and let the reader decide for himself what kind of populist Long was, based on the article he read. Your statement about Long's left-wing populism contradicts the same wikipedia article, where it says that Academics and historians have found difficulty categorizing Long and his ideology. [[User:HueyLong1893|HueyLong1893]] ([[User talk:HueyLong1893|talk]]) 16:17, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

:::::::::You literally cited a pro-Trump crock website and a literal white nationalist newsletter. '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 16:25, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

::::::::::You literally cited a pro-Neocon andcrock website and a literal Free-Market Fundamental newsletter [[User:HueyLong1893|HueyLong1893]] ([[User talk:HueyLong1893|talk]]) 16:28, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

:::::::::::Free-Market Fundamentalist* [[User:HueyLong1893|HueyLong1893]] ([[User talk:HueyLong1893|talk]]) 16:30, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

::::::::::::Do you not see any issue at all with presenting a website that condemns both Judaism and integration as a reliable source? '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 16:46, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

::::::::::" literal white nationalist "

::::::::::But real "left-wing populist" Huey Long was literal pro-segregation

::::::::::"If Long's record on encouraging black voting is hardly sterling, one might argue that at least his economic program helped blacks. But that aid was marginal and unintentional. He provided no pensions or employment benefits to white or black Louisianians-outsiders sometimes attribute Louisiana's welfare net to Huey but the credit actually belongs to his brother Earl, governor in the 1940s and 1950s. In fact, Huey opposed such programs and specifically argued that the money would be wasted on blacks. During the 1932 gubernatorial campaign he attacked a plan for old age pensions advocated by anti-Long candidate Dudley LeBlanc. He complained that LeBlanc's promise of $30 per month for those over 60 would cost $60,000,000. "And LeBlanc is going to pay pensions to negroes, too," Long said, "because don't you think he is going to overlook his lodge brothers. It will cost $20,000,000 a year to pay the negroes' pensions alone, and you white people will be working the year around to pay pensions to negroes."

::::::::::When two black ministers attempted to attend a meeting of clergy who favored sharing the wealth, they were turned away, told they were not invited. Blacks were permitted to attend rallies so long as they remained around the fringes of the crowd and did not mingle with whites. "

::::::::::Jeansonne, 1992, 273-275.

::::::::::Also:

::::::::::[Long] denied a recommendation to appoint a black controller of customs in New Orleans on the grounds that whites would have to call him "mister".

::::::::::Blacks were permitted to attend [Share Our Wealth] rallies so long as they remained around the fringes of the crowd and did not mingle with whites.

::::::::::[Long] told audiences that [...] arch-enemy Lee Thomas (mayor of Shreveport) accepted campaign contributions from blacks.

::::::::::He habitually used the term [N-word], but his printers changed it

::::::::::Long refused to refer the case for arbitration to a subcommittee which included women. "No bunch of damned skirts is going to decide anything affecting me," he said.

::::::::::One of Long's bodyguards testified that Long had become an honorary member of the Alexandria Klan in 1924. Furthermore, Long accepted a $30,000 contribution from Swords Lee, a relative who was a high Klan official, for his 1928 campaign.

::::::::::"You can quote me as saying I'll vote 100 per cent against the Costigan-Wagner anti-lynching bill that's brought up there in Washington," he said. "We just lynch an occasional [N-word]. No federal anti-lynching bill would help that."

::::::::::He provided no pensions or employment benefits to white or black Louisianans- outsiders sometimes attribute Louisiana's welfare net to Huey but the credit actually belongs to his brother Earl, governor in the 1940s and 1950s. In fact, Huey opposed such programs and specifically argued that the money would be wasted on blacks.

::::::::::Blacks were the lowest priority in state hospitals, were underpaid on state jobs, their unionization discouraged, and were sentenced to unduly long prison terms.

::::::::::During the 1932 gubernatorial campaign he attacked a plan for old age pensions advocated by anti-Long candidate Dudley LeBlanc. He complained that LeBlanc's promise of $30 per month for those over 60 would cost $60,000,000. "And LeBlanc is going to pay pensions to negroes, too," Long said, "because don't you think he is going to overlook his lodge brothers. It will cost $20,000,000 a year to pay the negroes' pensions alone, and you white people will be working the year around to pay pensions to negroes." There was nothing in the program Long discussed in either his autobiography or his manifesto, My First Days in the White House, for blacks. He specifically denied to Roy Wilkins that he planned any special economic or political program for blacks.

::::::::::Source: Louisiana History: The Journal of the Louisiana Historical Association Vol. 33, No. 3 [[User:HueyLong1893|HueyLong1893]] ([[User talk:HueyLong1893|talk]]) 16:36, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

::::::Yes, especially when this article was written as a response to the article America Gretness, and in this article from NR Long they specifically want to expose a bad "ultra-left populist crock". In general, it's funny how a person of left-wing views refers to market fundomentalists [[User:HueyLong1893|HueyLong1893]] ([[User talk:HueyLong1893|talk]]) 16:13, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

:::::::Also, from T Harry Williams book, page 800

:::::::"Huey, an ardent nationalist on the rare occasions that he thought about foreign policy, fully shared their views. But in joining their attack on the treaty he was motivated primarily by his detestation of Roosevelt." [[User:HueyLong1893|HueyLong1893]] ([[User talk:HueyLong1893|talk]]) 16:22, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

::An interesting progressive turned out to be Huey Long. His associates are ardent anti-communists, those people who were ranked among the American far-right, who, like Long himself, advocate isolationism and the principle of "America first." Long himself referred not to the writings of left-wing economists, but to the Bible. I don't think it's worth talking about Long's struggle with prostitution. In addition, Long himself was an anti-communist. "We have neither communists nor socialists in Louisiana. Huey Pierce Long is the greatest enemy that Communists and Socialists have to deal with." - Huey Long. Long himself actively debated with socialists such as Norman Thomas. Long's ideological landmarks were the founding fathers of America, Andrew Jackson and William Bryan. [[Special:Contributions/77.222.107.254|77.222.107.254]] ([[User talk:77.222.107.254|talk]]) 16:13, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

I've opened up a [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27 noticeboard/Incidents#Tendentious editing at Huey Long|discussion at AN/I about this]]. Tagging {{u|Generalrelative}} since they just responded here. '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 17:19, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

:Thanks, Toa. I'm definitely not endorsing HueyLong1893's behavior here. But it does seem to me that scholars typically eschew calling Long a leftist, which means that we should too (while also including the quotes where he identifies that way, ''and'' the ones where he contradicts that characterization). [[User:Generalrelative|Generalrelative]] ([[User talk:Generalrelative|talk]]) 17:25, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

::I'd again recommend reading the sources I've showed. Scholars are ''not'' shy about identifying him on the left; this isn't a case like with [[Charles Coughlin]] where there is some genuine debate (and even on his end, most align him with the left, although this tends to be underscored in modern times because he focused so heavily on gross, egregious anti-Semitism). This is has been extensively discussed, really. If there were actual academic sources presented, that's one thing, but there's no shortage that identify him as aligning with the political left - even in his own words. '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 17:27, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

:::Just as an example - take, for example, source 225. The article suggests that academics "have found difficulty categorizing Long and his ideology"; however, the source doesn't support this. Instead, it says they've had difficulty examining the [https://www.jstor.org/stable/4234200 "impact of his career"]. [https://books.google.com/books?id=xTuq2SzUMnIC&pg=PA212&lpg=PA212&dq=%22Oh,+hell,+say+that+I’m+sui+generis+and+let+it+go+at+that%22&source=bl&ots=BNSzfVU-wl&sig=ACfU3U0UOJFCeqKmzVcVHCZ_s5mg9z6p9g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiEmomiuon_AhU6lmoFHeX7DW0Q6AF6BAg_EAM#v=onepage&q=%22Oh%2C%20hell%2C%20say%20that%20I’m%20sui%20generis%20and%20let%20it%20go%20at%20that%22&f=false The "Sui generis" quote isn't about his political ''philosophy'' but his political ''personality''.] '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 17:32, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

::::Long never call himself leftist. Also his closer supporter Gerald L K Smith call him as conservative, not left wing populist [[User:HueyLong1893|HueyLong1893]] ([[User talk:HueyLong1893|talk]]) 17:48, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

:::::Yes he did. It's quoted in the article. But he said a lot of mutually contradictory things, and people at the time placed him all over the ideological map. [[User:Generalrelative|Generalrelative]] ([[User talk:Generalrelative|talk]]) 17:52, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

::::::In any case, my position is: let's just leave Long as a populist, without a bias to the left wing or the right. As it was before the Toa editorial board, in 21 and before that [[User:HueyLong1893|HueyLong1893]] ([[User talk:HueyLong1893|talk]]) 17:58, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

::::::Gerald Smith was a close associate of Huey Long and it was he who headed the "Share Our Wealth" society after Long's death. In addition, Long himself said that the purpose of his plan is to strengthen traditions. Huey Long was a paternalistic conservative and populist nationalist like Juan Peron or Getulio Vargas. He is neither right nor left. [[Special:Contributions/77.222.107.254|77.222.107.254]] ([[User talk:77.222.107.254|talk]]) 17:59, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

:::I really don't think you're correct here, Toa. See my latest comment in the above section. [[User:Generalrelative|Generalrelative]] ([[User talk:Generalrelative|talk]]) 17:50, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

::::I think [[User:Generalrelative|Generalrelative]] makes an equal point. BTW I was not able to find an RfC for consensus that Long was a left wing populist either, so the argument in that regard is dubious. There was a discussion that seemed to die out, but not much else. I suggest an actual RfC if Toa insists on committing Long to only one aspect of the political spectrum. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 17:58, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

:::::My position is let's just leave Huey Long as a populist in article, without a bias to the left wing or the right. [[User:HueyLong1893|HueyLong1893]] ([[User talk:HueyLong1893|talk]]) 17:59, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

:An RfC is not the only way to establish consensus; however, an RfC in this case seems like a reasonable solution to me, {{u|Darknipples}}. If you're willing to start one, that would presumably resolve the issue. '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 18:09, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

::In that case I think we must agree on which reliable sources are best to be used in the argument, both for and against. I'm not going to take sides or vote, and I don't have any closing experience, so I suggest a more experienced editor or admin for that. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 18:17, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

:::Well, I've compiled a list. I'll post below. '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 18:44, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

::Any thoughts on including editors at [[Political views of Huey Long]] et al? [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 18:26, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

:::I don't hold that page in high regard at all, but sure? '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 18:44, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

:::An RfC question should be simple and short. It should not include sources. Those can be marshaled by those arguing for and against. I would suggest as a question: {{tq|Should Long be described as "left-wing" in the article lead?}} [[User:Generalrelative|Generalrelative]] ([[User talk:Generalrelative|talk]]) 18:44, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

::::More specifically, as a "left-wing populist". I would not support labeling him strictly as left-wing. '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 18:45, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

:::::Sounds good to me. [[User:Generalrelative|Generalrelative]] ([[User talk:Generalrelative|talk]]) 18:49, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

===A slew of reliable sources===

*[https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/03/huey-long-was-donald-trumps-left-wing-counterpart/583933/ When Demagogic Populism Swings Left - The Atlantic "Long’s brief political career provides a mirrored vision of Trump’s demagogic populism—a glimpse of what could happen if a left-wing politician channeled a similar message and disregard for political mores."]

*[https://www.npr.org/2019/07/30/746568840/huey-long-vs-the-media Huey Long Vs. The Media - NPR "He combined progressive economic ideas with an autocratic streak, earning him thousands of adoring fans and fearful enemies."]

*[https://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/opinion/our_views/our-views-fdrs-restraint-with-huey-long-is-a-valuable-lesson-for-politicians-today/article_42ed2c84-09ef-11e8-8442-c714423cfd93.html Our Views: FDR's restraint with Huey Long is a valuable lesson for politicians today - The Advocate "When Roosevelt was elected president in 1932, critics accused him of being too liberal. But Long, the legendary governor who had been elected to the U.S. Senate, didn’t think Roosevelt was progressive enough."]

*[https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/11/01/elizabeth-warren-bernie-sanders-fdr-229893/ What Warren and Sanders Get Wrong About FDR - POLITICO "The antitrust concession horrified the progressive populists of the day. “The Democratic Party dies tonight,” thundered Senator Huey Long"]

*[https://www.google.com/books/edition/Right_Wing_Populism_in_America/pDtRDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22huey+long%22+%2B+%22left-wing%22&pg=PA127&printsec=frontcover Guilford Publications, Right-Wing Populism in America "Long positioned himself as a left-wing critic of a vaccinating New Deal"]

*[https://www.google.com/books/edition/Kingfish/_0CKVuAldzEC?hl=en&gbpv=0 Random House Publishing Group, Kingfish, "According to Huey, either he or another third-party candidate would take enough left-wing votes from Roosevelt"]

*[https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Demagogue_s_Playbook/dVC9DwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22huey+long%22+%2B+%22left-wing%22&pg=PT67&printsec=frontcover The Demagogue's Playbook: The Battle for American Democracy from the Founders to Trump, Eric A. Posner "The left-wing version would be represented by Huey Long"]

*[https://www.google.com/books/edition/Populism_Democracy_and_the_Humanities/S3BgEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22huey%20long%22%20 Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, Populism, Democracy, and the Humanities Interdisciplinary Explorations and Critical Enquiries p.193 "Lewis's model for Buzz Windrip was obviously Huey Long, an authoritarian demagogue to be sure, but a decided leftist populist politician"]

*[https://www.google.com/books/edition/Liberalism_and_Leadership/mGKzDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22huey%20long%22 p.66 University of Michigan Press, Liberalism and Leadership: The Irony of Arthur Schlesinger, Jr."The first category consists of leftist politicians with a populist streak, including Huey Long"]

*[https://www.google.com/books/edition/Leadership_Populism_and_Resistance/DnHaDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22huey%20long%22 Edward Elgar Publishing, Leadership, Populism, and Resistance "Governor Franklin Roosevelt worried about a dangerous populist left under the influence of Huey Long"]

*[https://www.google.com/books/edition/Evolutionary_Theory_in_the_Social_Scienc/DJquyEyd0AIC?hl=en&gbpv=0 Routledge, Evolutionary Theory in the Social Sciences "As Huey Long's left-wing response to the New Deal demonstrates"]

*[https://www.google.com/books/edition/Quest_for_the_Presidency/pGhgEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22huey+long%22+%2B+%22left-wing%22&pg=PT200&printsec=frontcover University of Nebraska Press Quest for the Presidency: The Storied and Surprising History of Presidential Campaigns in America "There was also a threat from left-wing autocrats, notably Huey Long"]

*[https://www.google.com/books/edition/Nature_at_War/BFjPDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22huey+long%22+%2B+%22left-wing%22&pg=PA206&printsec=frontcover Cambridge University Press, Nature at War American Environments and World War II "Left-wing radicals like Huey Long of Louisiana"]

*[https://www.google.com/books/edition/American_Unemployment/nPzgDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22huey+long%22+%2B+%22left-wing%22&pg=PT94&printsec=frontcover University of Illinois Press, American Unemployment: Past, Present, and Future "In 1934 left-wing radicalism was surging, as evidenced by Huey Long's "Share the Wealth" movement"]

Just some sources I've found from maybe 30 minutes of research. '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 18:44, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

:Also reliable sources

:[https://thecrossandflag.com/smith_and_long.html#here Gerald L.K. Smith closer Huey supporter about Huey views] Gerald L K Smith called Huey as Conservative [[User:HueyLong1893|HueyLong1893]] ([[User talk:HueyLong1893|talk]]) 19:31, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

::The Cross and Flag is not a reliable source. It's a white nationalist website. Please stop posting it. '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 19:34, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

:::And? Even despite the views, Smith was a close supporter of Long. We can't ignore him because of his views [[User:HueyLong1893|HueyLong1893]] ([[User talk:HueyLong1893|talk]]) 19:39, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

::::Reliable sources only please, HueyLong1893. Also, Toa, would it be possible to try to narrow it down? Does '''top 3 RS for each side''' sound OK with everyone?...[[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 02:47, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

:::::Respectfully, I see no reason to limit the sources to three each, when there are dozens in favor and very few contrary. When it’s such a clear preponderance of evidence, reducing the number of sources total provides a clear benefit to the minority opinion. '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 02:55, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

::::[[User:Generalrelative|Generalrelative]] and Toa...You seem to agree sources are uneccessary and just keeping it to a simplistic question is preferable. The issue seems to be that Toa wants "left-wing populist" in the lead while Huey and GR prefer "populist". The question can be posed in various ways but to address the specific issues here it would seem best to offer multiple choice options, unless anyone has objections to that. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 03:05, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

:::::Just as a note, Huey has been indefinitely blocked. '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 03:09, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

:::::It would be fine to phrase the RfC question as: {{talkquote|Should the lead describe Long as 1) "a left-wing populist", 2) simply "a populist", or 3) neither?}} [[User:Generalrelative|Generalrelative]] ([[User talk:Generalrelative|talk]]) 04:02, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

::::::That said, if I'm the only one left who objects to "left-wing", I'm happy to let it go. I weighed in in the interest of putting an end to the edit warring, and that's now been obviated. I also see that BMK restored the phrase. Not interested enough in this controversy to invest a bunch more time into it. [[User:Generalrelative|Generalrelative]] ([[User talk:Generalrelative|talk]]) 04:12, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

:Apologies for intruding if I am, but saw this discussion and thought I'd drop a couple more book citations:

:*''"[Long] shouted that to help the suffering masses the New Deal must turn to the left... Roosevelt responded to what he thought was a dangerous possibility - if the New Deal failed to solve the problems of capitalism, the restless factions of the American left might erupt into some kind of revolution under Long's leadership"'' Huey Long by T Harry Williams, p. 7-8

:*''"Huey Long's conquest of Louisiana came from what was, in American terms, a clearly radical and left-wing tradition."'' The Age of Extremes by Eric Hobsbawm, p. 133

:*''"The popularity of Huey Long's calls for radical redistribution of wealth and income was the most striking example of the widespread thunder on the left in the mid-1930s."'' The Great Depression: America, 1929-1941 by Robert S. McElvaine, 243

:The great majority of academics and historians put Long on the (albeit the American populist and non-socialist) political and economic left. I'd agree with Toa that 3 RS would give an unfair advantage to the minority opinion. [[User:SDYB-WNRTC|SDYB-WNRTC]] ([[User talk:SDYB-WNRTC|talk]]) 04:12, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

::Sources will not be included in the RfC question (see Generalrelative's comments), they will be saved for discussion as long as no one objects. Since Huey is no longer involved, if Toa concurs, we may move forward. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 04:17, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

===Issue tabled===

(Flips table) Just kidding, it seems no one is left to challenge the "left-wing populist" insertion, or re-insertion, into the lead, as the original complainant editor is currently indef and the secondary has yielded in the interest of time [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AHuey_Long&diff=1156492633&oldid=1156492166]. Toa, it may be wise to proceed with the RfC as to avoid having to revisit this issue again, but I'll leave it to you. Thank you for your patience. Cheers. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 04:33, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

:Per [[WP:RFCBEFORE]]: {{talkquote|RfCs are time consuming, and editor time is valuable. Before using the RfC process to get opinions from outside editors, it's often faster and more effective to thoroughly discuss the matter with any other parties on the related talk page. Editors are expected to make a reasonable attempt at resolving their issues before starting an RfC.}} So no, an RfC should not be started if there is no ongoing dispute. Cheers y'all, [[User:Generalrelative|Generalrelative]] ([[User talk:Generalrelative|talk]]) 04:38, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

::Agreed. '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 05:01, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

::Point taken, I'm just dealing with a bit of talk-page whiplash at the moment...[[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 05:06, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

:::Understood. Thanks for your work, DN. [[User:Generalrelative|Generalrelative]] ([[User talk:Generalrelative|talk]]) 05:21, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

== Removal of source under Historical reputation section ==

With regard to this edit...[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Huey_Long&diff=1156560039&oldid=1156513558] {{tq|The full quote here is "My guess is that he was a remarkable set of contradictions, still baffling to biographers"; I don't think this is a confident enough quote to use him as a source. Boldly removing; feel free to revert or discuss if need be.}}

:::''Robert Penn Warren described him as a "remarkable set of contradictions".<ref name="warrennyt">{{cite news|last=Warren|first=Robert Penn|author-link=Robert Penn Warren|date=May 31, 1981|title=In the Time of 'All the King's Men'|url=https://www.nytimes.com/1981/05/31/books/in-the-time-of-all-the-king-s-men.html|work=[[The New York Times]]|access-date=September 4, 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200108173512/https://www.nytimes.com/1981/05/31/books/in-the-time-of-all-the-king-s-men.html|archive-date=January 8, 2020|url-status=live|url-access=subscription}}</ref>''

I'm not sure what you mean by "confident enough quote". This is a well sourced citation that backs up what is said in the right context. How does "lack of confidence" constitute removal of seemingly [[WP:DUE]] RS, written by [[Robert Penn Warren]], which by the way won him a Pulitzer Prize for writing on this exact topic? Why would we remove this? [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 18:26, 28 May 2023 (UTC) [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 18:26, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

:The author entirely prefaces it as a "guess" about what Long's personality was, but the article chopped out that part of the quote. Guesses aren't actually useful and don't add much here. This quote doesn't offer anything at all, and that's before the fact was misleadingly chopped up; there's no actual benefit to including it, really. '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 19:18, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

::It's not clear that what you are claiming isn't what the author intended. This was a retrospective piece written in 1981 by a highly respected writer. Why would he include it if he felt it was unimportant or should be dismissed? That seems quite unlikely and fairly presumptuous. To say it doesn't offer anything because the author wrote "I guess" seems a bit of a literal interpretation that lacks any nuance. IMO we can keep the quote from NYT by Warren, but you may include the whole quote (including the "I guess") since you feel it seems disingenuous without it. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 01:47, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

:::The whole quote is somewhat intriguing:

<blockquote>My guess is that he was a remarkable set of contradictions, still baffling to biographers. But I had a great interest in what Huey did in his world, and a greater interest in Huey as a focus of myth. Without this gift for attracting myth he would not have been the power he was, for good and evil. And this gift was fused, indissolubly, with his dramatic sense, with his varying roles and perhaps, ultimately, with the atmosphere of violence which he generated.</blockquote>

:::If the whole quote were included - not just the brief focus on his personality - I'd support inclusion. It does give some insight onto the "populist hero vs. despotic authoritarian" mythology. '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 17:31, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

::::I would support that. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px; border:1px solid red;">'''HAL'''</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px; border:1px solid red;">'''333'''</span>]] 13:39, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

:::::I'm fine with using the whole quote considering the source. If [[User:Aquabluetesla|Aquabluetesla]] doesn't have any objections, I'm happy to do the legwork. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 17:26, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

::::::Including the original quote was misleading as the full quote seems to me to be an attempt at trying to understand Huey Long as it includes the word ''guess''. It doesn’t seem to be a fully confident statement. I don't think the quote originator's status as a winner of an award (although notably prestigious) necessarily justifies including it either. [[User:Aquabluetesla|<i style="color:lightblue; font-family: Helvetica;">Aquablue</i>]][[User talk:Aquabluetesla|<i style="color: yellow; font-family: Helvetica;">tesla</i>]] 01:30, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

:::::::This brings up an interesting question. Should this article only be limited to political aspects? IMO, the obvious answer is no. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 05:04, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

:::::::What exactly is the point of this article in your view? While I empathize with anyone's inability to grasp a particular purpose on one thing or another, I typically try to ensure I am not using an [[Argument from incredulity]], especially when it comes to quality sources such as this. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 05:17, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

:::::::I'll put it this way, the phrase "I guess" can be interpreted in different ways. I challenge you to provide evidence that it's use here can only be interpreted as "I don't know" vs. [https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/i-guess "I think so"]. Also, keep in mind that everyone else here seems to agree this content bares some [[WP:WEIGHT]]...[[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 18:39, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

:::::::If there's no consensus for adding the quote in whole, I would like to keep the original truncated quote. I believe it improves the article and Warren's perspective is relevant due to his close relationship with Long. ~ [[User:HAL333|<span style="background:red; color:white; padding:2px; border:1px solid red;">'''HAL'''</span>]][[User talk:HAL333|<span style="background:black; color:white; padding:2px; border:1px solid red;">'''333'''</span>]] 20:55, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

::::::::I strongly oppose re-adding the short, misleading, clipped quote that provides essentially no value beyond a guess. '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 22:15, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

:::::::::Aqua has yet to provide solid reasoning for exclusion, but I think Toa is trying to be reasonable in an effort to reach consensus. I still find the arguments that "it takes up too much space" or "isn't ''confident'' enough" to be without merit, considering the source. At the very least, I think we should include the "i guess" portion, and let readers use the citation if they need further clarification. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 01:49, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

I propose a shortened version, as Aqua requested, that includes the preface that Toa requested. If HAL and [[User:Generalrelative|Generalrelative]] agree that it is acceptable I will add it in per [[WP:CONACHIEVE]].

<blockquote>My guess is that he was a remarkable set of contradictions, still baffling to biographers. But I had a great interest in what Huey did in his world, and a greater interest in Huey as a focus of myth. Without this gift for attracting myth he would not have been the power he was, for good and evil.</blockquote>

[[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 07:19, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

:This version is much more acceptable than how it was before its removal. I am okay with the entire quote being used in the article. I've edited my previous statements regarding this discussion.

[[User:Aquabluetesla|<i style="color:lightblue; font-family: Helvetica;">Aquablue</i>]][[User talk:Aquabluetesla|<i style="color: yellow; font-family: Helvetica;">tesla</i>]] 16:39, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

:I personally would prefer the whole quote be used - the bit at the very end about the culture of violence that Long was surrounded with is ''really'' important. His legacy isn't just as a despot, but someone who was assassinated - he used force to impose his will, and was killed by force in the end. I think that sort of encapsulates all of the feelings the writer was trying to express. '''[[User:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i>]] [[User talk:Toa Nidhiki05|<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i>]]''' 16:49, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

::I understand your feelings here, and I do not see any issue with using the whole quote. Aqua is the only standout so far, the majority, so far, is to include the whole the quote. [[User:Darknipples|DN]] ([[User talk:Darknipples|talk]]) 17:17, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

:::I am okay with the inclusion of the full quote. [[User:Aquabluetesla|<i style="color:lightblue; font-family: Helvetica;">Aquablue</i>]][[User talk:Aquabluetesla|<i style="color: yellow; font-family: Helvetica;">tesla</i>]] 17:20, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

{{ref list}}