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Is this date, 1200th century, really possible? Source for this info? Iaido is a typical modern budo. This is the kind of practise that occurrs after the sword has had their time on the killing fields. Habj 22:48 Mar 26, 2003 (UTC)
I have made Batto-jutsu as a redirect to Iaido because it was redundant and its original contents were largely nonsense. jni 15:48, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I was under the impression that iaido and battojutsu were different techniques, as iaido was concerned with mainly seated techniques and battojutsu just refers to drawing the sword (hence batto) Eldamorie 29 June 2005 05:43 (UTC)
There is problems with staing that the current grandmaster of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu is Hanshi Miura Takeyuki Hirefusa, for the following reasons:
1. There are two main sects in Musu Jikiden Eishin Ryu both who currently have a Soke. One sect is affiliated with the Dai Nippon Iaido Federation, the other is affiliated with the Zen Nippon Iaido Federation. Apart from this there other localised sects of this style that are still exist without any affiliation to an administrating body. Furthermore there are other numerous Iaido federations.
2. It is symantically incorrect in Japanese to hold the tile of Soke and Hanshi, as Hanshi is a title traditionally lower in "rank" to a Soke.
I have to say that it is not semantically incorrect in Japanese to hold the title of Soke and the rank of Hanshi. In some cases (as in the Dai Nippon Iaido Renmei), the term Soke is given to a selected person regardless of rank. In this situation, the Soke is required to grade as anyone else would. The current Soke (the 22nd Soke) of the Dai Nippon Iaido Renmei, Ajisai Hirai, is a 9th Dan Hanshi.Kancho9 26 November 2005 23:40 (UTC)
I think you got it right with the 1200AD date being a little sketchy. The current historical timeline seems accurate according to what is currently accepted on the web and in Zen Nippon Iaido Federation publications under the 21st Soke Fukui Torao Seisan (deceased). Sourcing of primary historical documents would be necessary to make a rigorous statement. Perhaps a good project for those interested. Cheers, Nanamori.
For Eishin ryu Iaijitsu/Iaido, the lineage is traced to somewhere at the end of the 16th century. Regds, Bolax.
I changed the redirect from Batto-Jutsu to go to Battojutsu since Bttojutsu and Iaido are different. 4/16/06, Tesshu
Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art
For the record, Iai, regardless of -do or -jutsu, is not the same as battojutsu. These are two distinctly different art forms with different lineages. Iai, specificaly Muso Gikeden Eishinryu can be easily dated bacy 450 years to the time period during which the tachi was in wide use throughout Japan. This art adopted the katana later on when Eishin became the sokke, who also established the art's name. Iai is literally known as "the art of the draw" and involves the rapid drawing of the blade directly into an attack. Forms for iai involve the two sitting positions of seizan and tatehiza, as well as standing and walking. The intent being to prepare the practioner for attack regardless of his position.
Batto came along much later during what I believe to be the late 1800's, and was taught to commoner soldiers.
Just noticed the following images on Special:Unusedimages. Maybe you iaidokas would like to use them:
File:Iaido.jpg
Securiger 13:24, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
i was fascinated by the addition of some of the theory and practice of the style- as pulling sword and sheath apart for a faster motion. could you include more information on that kind of thing?
9:30 pm January 16, 2006
I've changed the description of Otake Ritsuke from 'soke' to 'shihan' due to the fact that soke of TSKSR is currently Iizasa Yoshisada. Here are the references for the change.
http://tenshinsho-den-katori-shinto-ryu.org/
http://www.koryu.com/guide/katorishinto.html
I've also heard some rather interesting claims about Tatsu Do and Mr. Cavalier regarding their connections to TSKSR and Otake Risuke. I guess those should stand until someone more qualified than I can comment.
Under "Styles of Iaido" there is an unattributed quote.
A quotation from the article: "The secondary emphasis is on drawing the sword and responding to the sudden attack as quickly as possible. Starting positions can be from combative postures or from everyday sitting or standing positions. The ability to react quickly from different starting positions was considered essential for a samurai (侍)."
Funny, Kenjutsu just takes an entirely opposite standpoint: "Based on the hypothesized that through the practice of iai a Samurai would be able to quickly draw his sword in response to a surprise attack. This is however a modern construct as any combatant taken by a surprise attack would stand little chance of surviving an attack. In addition there is also little to no focus on the speed of draw in most Koryu." chery 21:46, 24 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I have noticed several things that should be included in any update. this includes clarification of terms, and more accurate material on the Kendo Federation's iaido kata. This article is dogmatic about terms that are not absolute: 1. iai/batto v. kenjutsu kenjutsu koryu and iai/batto koryu are presented as being very different in this article. In reality, many kenjutsu koryu had "iai" kata (i.e. solo kata that start with a sheathed sword). Yagyu, for example, is best known as the kenjutsu koryu that had Shogun for patrons but it also has a large collection of iai kata. On the other hand, Muso Shinden Ryu has four or five sets (depending on author) of a dozen kata that are iai, but it has six sets of kumitachi kata (e.g. kenjutsu kata) with about 7 to a donzen kata each accourding to Danzaki Sensei. However, Danzaki Sensei's book leaves out the shoto v. tachi (short sword versus long sword kata) so there are seven kenjutsu kata that make up the full curiculum of one of the most popular "iaido" koryu. So in reality, the difference between a kenjutsu koryu and a batto/iai koryu is in the emphasis. Iai koryu tend to teach iai kata first and later two person kata while kenjutsu does the reverse. This article should reflect this reality. The splitting of Japanese sword arts into the different boxes of iai/batto, kendo, and kenjutsu is a modern convention, and many koryu overlap the difinitions.
2. Do v jutsu Lets not get hung up on this modern convention. In 21st century Japanese martial arts have used "do" in their names because of the conotation that people do this martial art to cultivate the person more than to learn how to fight and that it is a morally uplifting activity. Other schools of martial arts have used jutsu to imply that they are unchanged from the time that the samurai class was abolished in the 1870's. Different schools of iai/batto have used both "jutsu" and "do" in the last one hundered years.
3. Iaido v Batto Before Nakayama Hakudo (a.k.a. Hiromuchi) Sensei started popularizing the term "iaido" in the early 20th century, Muso Shinden Ryu and Muso Jikiden Eishin RYu were known for their "batto" techniques. In fact there is even a kata called (drum roll please) "Batto." Another example is Toyama Ryu Iaido. Toyama Ryu was created by a committee of Nakayama Hakudo Sensei and couple of other sensei in the 1930's for the military. It's name has gone from Toyama Ryu Battojutsu (even though founded by a man who called his art iaido)to Toyama Ryu Iaido after World War Two to Nakamura Ryu Battodo under the leadership of its soke, Nakamura (note: there were two other "soke" of Toyama Ryu who studied at the Toyama military academy. I do not know what variation in name the other two branches use).
"Seitei" is no longer used by the Federation. It is now Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei Iai. "Seitei" should be included inthe article since it is still used by much of the iaidoka community to refer to this kata. Charleslham 19:38, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest thenumber of external links be drastically reduced. Most articles have 2 or 3, max of 10. The should add info.Peter Rehse 02:01, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The external links are too numerous as it is. For some reason I cant understand there are external-links to Muso Shinden-ryu and Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu sites in this article eventhough the two ryu have their own Wiki-articles. If noone can give me a good reason why these external-links should remain in the Iaido-article rather than respective ryu-articles, I'll be moving them shortly Fred26 12:51, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, since noone has any objection and since someone else has decided to add another link to Muso Shinden-section I will start moving the external links to the respective ryu. Fred26 04:57, 2 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Being that several fictional characters (Ukyo, Goemon) seem to perform iaido with the same kind of sword, I'm wondering if it has any solid association with the art... and also what you CALL one of those swords.. with no tsuba and an uninterrupted handle that matches the saya.. making it look like a cane or a bokuto... you know the ones!
Took the initative and cleaned up the article and moved all the external links save a few vital ones. The links that lead to Muso shinden ryu, eishin ryu (and so on) will be moved to their respective articles for the time being. The other links can be found below if someone can motivate their re-insertion.
Furthermore I think that the Iaido article should contain any Seitei Iai related material until such time a seperate Seitei Iai(do) article is created (if need be) and put the majority of information regarding other ryu into their own respective articles if any. The Shinkage and Takeda-ryu link should remain since there are no respective articles as of yet.
I've also moved the references to Iaido to a seperate article since it was getting too big for comfort. The new sub-article can be found here Iaido in popular culture.
This is the original Link-lineup for this article before I changed it to the present state: Fred26 18:02, 24 February 2007 (UTC) "External Links" Seitei Iaidō[reply]
Muso-Jikiden Eishin-ryu
Muso-Shinden-ryu
Shinkage-ryu
Takeda Ryu
Others
In the Eishin-ryu article there was a good list of the kata found in the seitei iai system, and since that list seemed out of place in the Eishin-ryu article I moved it here (for lack of a Seitei Iai article). Fred26 08:49, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This paragraph in the article confused me, but I don't want to edit it without checking with those more knowledgeable than myself:
In the All Japan Kendo Federation (AJKF) or Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei, one of the largest federations both in Japan and outside Japan, there are two lines representing the Muso school. The current sōke for Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryū is Fukui Torao (21st master), and the last sōke for Muso Shinden-ryū was Nakayama Hakudo with no official successor.
Firstly, should MJER and MSR be jointly referred to as "the Muso school"? The musō in MJER is 無双 (unparalleled), whereas the musō in MSR is 夢想 (dream/vision). They have a common root, but are distinct styles.
Secondly, is there a reason for saying that the current sōke of MJER is the late Fukui Torao rather than Ikeda Takashi? Is it a matter of politics or is the information just out of date?
Also regarding sōke: is it correct to refer to a style having multiple or disputed sōke? Although there are multiple schools of MJER I believe only one of the headmasters is referred to as sōke, and this is currently Ikeda Takashi.
I may be mistaken in questioning any or all of these points, so feel free to educate me if this is the case. Oroshi 18:42, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just to follow up on this - can anyone confirm whether or not Ikeda Takashi is recognised by the ZNKR as the sōke of MJER? Fukui Torao has passed away but he is still listed as the recognised sōke, even though Ikeda sensei was his successor. Oroshi 21:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As "ryu" is not an English word, it needs to be romanized properly, as per WP:MOS-JA. LordAmeth 16:43, 24 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It would be useful if someone could record a native Japanese speaker saying the word iaidō as a guide to proper pronounciation. An IPA transliteration would also be useful. Red phase 21:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This article has the double duty of informing about classical iai and modern Iai, where Seitei Iai is the largest modern form of Iai today. I think that if and when we have enough material we should create a purebred Seitei-iai article and keep this "Iaido" article as a general overview. I do not know enough about Seitei to be a head-writer for a Seitei Iai article, but if someone else feels we have enough material, and/or can add more, then I would recommend you do so. Fred26 18:14, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I originally took the translations of the seiteigata names from the official ZNKR English-language manual. I noted at the time I'd personally choose to translate them differently, but decided to go with the official translation. They've now been altered in the article (and some of the new translations I don't agree with, namely 'Eluding' for 'Ukenagashi'). Rather than just change the names back without consulting anyone, are there any comments on the translation? Should we use the official ZNKR translation, or do you prefer the personal translation that has replaced it? Oroshi 08:13, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, I reverted the seitei gata list to an earlier edit. The reason is that the names of the kata are as used in practice, but maybe more importantly, they are the names assigned to the kata by the AJKF. The translation is still there, as is a brief description of the kata. I understand the Wikipedia convention on japanese words, but these are names, so I suggest that they are appropriate to be read first. We accept that we use the word "kendo" and not "japanese fencing" as the name of that activity, similarly we use the word "seitei" instead of "enactment" and "iaido" instead of "staying combination road" (that Google translate came up with). Happy to discuss.
I'm asking because I'm not overly familiar with this style (I teach Chinese weapons) but I at least know it is a real style with a long history. The article is tagged as lacking references, would any of the references listed at Battojutsu be usable? --Fire Star 火星 03:26, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am not an iaido practitioner or expert, but I have never seen an iaidoka remove blood from a blade. Does anyone have any background information on this?
