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Talk:Lead-acid battery: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 16:13, 9 October 2009

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Sungel has batteries that are supposed to last 1,500 cycles. Here's a link: http://www.batteryenergy.com.au/downloads/3.1.6.10%20Sungel%20deep%20discharge%20cycle%20life.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.245.87.5 (talk) 23:25, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there are many. These are US made, UL listed too. Lifeline RV Batteries 1000+ Cycles @ 50%DOD
Lifeline Marine Batteries 1000+ Cycles @ 50%DOD
SunXtender Marine Batteries 1000+ Cycles @ 50%DOD
Chairman Wheelchair Batteries 1000+ Cycles @ 50%DOD mukster 07:10, 2 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mukster (talk • contribs)

Hey, my professor recently showed us the anode half reaction for this battery and SO4-, according to him, is supposed to be HSO4-, which deprotonates into SO4 2- and H+ with 2 electrons given up. This makes much more sense, since SO4 2- is the correct form of sulfate, and lead would rather have a 2+ oxidation anyway. It's an image, so i don't know how to fix it.

I believe you are correct. The reactions given in this article are appropriate to dilute battery acid. At the high concentrations of sulfuric acid in an actual battery, the reactions should involve HSO4- at each electrode. The voltages given may be correct, since they seem to add up to about the correct value. Sandman42 74.192.217.168 13:55, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that a water molecule was missing in the cathode equation. HarfangGS (talk) 16:39, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.84.26.184 (talk) 02:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC). Zarautz 20:16, 30 August 2006 (UTC)==Recycling PbA effective?== I remember reading that most PbA batteries ended up in piles in Indonesia. Can we have a good primary source reference that lead is actually recycled? (It seems believable, considering how easy lead is to handle and refine, but you never know). --njh 05:42, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

MikeC195607:49, 09 September 2006 (UTC) The opening of the article states "Lead-acid batteries, invented in 1859 by French physicist Gaston Planté, are the oldest type of galvanic cell and are the most commonly used rechargeable batteries today.[Citation Needed] Well information for this statement may be found at Encyclopedia Britannica http://www.britannica.com/ebi/article-197275[reply]

In the United States, 99.2% of Lead Acid Batteries were recycled per EPA regulations. Please look here for documentation at Battery Council International. [[1]BCIRecylingRateStudyReport.pdf] mukster 00:04, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Can somebody give a list of how PBAs are charged? (unsigned comment from anon)

BCI would have this information.

I'd love to see some sort of introduction to rechargable batteries for the hobbiest. Of the common types (PbA, NiMH, NiCd, & Li+), I'm not sure which is the easiest to charge - i.e., most resilient to 'dumb' charging from a solar cell, generator, etc. (Unsigned comment by 70.23.244.12. 02:58, 17 August 2006, UTC)

Some of that information is in the Rechargeable battery page (which is hurting for more information and a good review at the moment). Of course, Wikipedia is not an instruction manual, but I imagine quite a bit more could be said on that page. For your own edification, there are battery charging ICs that you can buy that take care of safely charging many different chemistries for under 10 bucks. The 'dumbest' batteries are indeed lead acids (in my experience), while the newer batteries need more complex control circuitry (like the Lithiums that are always exploding in laptops). But you do need to be careful designing charging circuitry for any chemistry. (Please remember to sign your talk pages). Matt B. 23:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The battery University site has good info on recharging PBAs. The link is already on the rechargable battery page. <http://www.batteryuniversity.com/index.htm>. Dan Oetting 15:03, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to get started on cleaning up some of the existing sections of this article. However, it seems to me that Gel Battery, Absorbent glass mat and VRLA would fit much better into a "Types of Lead-Acid Batteries" subsection here. I'm going to add {{mergeinto}} tags to each of the articles, but I would imagine discussion would be most helpful here since it should be an all-or-nothing kind of thing -- it wouldn't be very productive if just one article moved :). Matt B. 11:29, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed in principle. But VRLA (Valve Regulated Lead Acid) is a wider class than the other two, ie it is usual to have a VRLA gel battery or a VRLA AGM battery. Gel and AGM describe the electrolyte status, VRLA is just a safety valve to avoid gas build up in a sealed container. But I'm no expert. Zarautz 20:16, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, the way I worded it makes it sound like they are three different types. More precisely, I would imagine that Gel Battery and AGM would be subtopics of VRLA, which would be in a section under types of lead acid batteries (along with the old-fashioned wet version). I suppose theoretically you could make a Gel or AGM battery that isn't valve regulated, but I've never heard of such a beast (nor could I fathom a rationale for doing so). Matt B. 23:17, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It seems like a perfect match.

Further comment re different types of lead acid batteries:

I accessed this article to learn the difference between a deep cycle battery vs a traction battery. In terms of usefulness of this article, I think the different "design styles" of lead acid batteries should be listed - Starter, Marine, Deep Cycle, Traction, etc, and the differences and specific applications discussed. CofE001 02:53, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

There are many types of batteries technologies that fill this in. Yes all sizeable batteries have vents, but would you please turn over your car battery and see the result :) acid everywhere! SO THE VALVES MATTER PER APPLICATION. The first main distinction is sealed or not (aka can you EVER take the lid off of it!) Next is voltage, plate thickness, construction methods, etc. some are distinct to a few distributors, patented, etc. Some are general and anyone can build em. Should you make the move to a more defined criteria list you are in danger of giving companies spaces. Throw them all together and you can't tell the difference when you don't know better. IS WIKIPEDIA GOING TO BE AN Encyclopedia Based Directory with examples of it's own? THEN WE NEED THE SPACE. I say leave em alone and maybe even add a section where you put batteries together by manufacturer or application. The Manufacturers can't do this as each only has a brand or two, but we can (GOOGLE PRECEDENT). Bigger is Better, CONTENT IS WHAT MAKES THIS POWERFUL. Mukster 14:46, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In the Enviromental Cleanup Section:

The article mentions that new versions of recycling are needed to cut down on polution. Does anyone know exactly how poluting current Recycling programs are?

Also, that whole section doesn't sound very professional.

"Effective Lead pollution control system is a necessity for sustainable environment. There is a continuous improvement in battery recycling plants and furnace designs for greater efficiencies. These recycling plants are ecology friendly as they follow all emission standards for lead smelters, but new methods should be devised or alternatives developed to the lead-acid battery so that lead pollution can be reduced to an essentially negligible amount."

Sounds alittle one-sided... --203.214.113.65 06:19, 26 May 2007 (UTC)Thanh Ho== How effective are recycling programs? ==[reply]

In the Enviromental Cleanup Section:

The article mentions that new versions of recycling are needed to cut down on polution. Does anyone know exactly how poluting current Recycling programs are?

Also, that whole section doesn't sound very professional.

"Effective Lead pollution control system is a necessity for sustainable environment. There is a continuous improvement in battery recycling plants and furnace designs for greater efficiencies. These recycling plants are ecology friendly as they follow all emission standards for lead smelters, but new methods should be devised or alternatives developed to the lead-acid battery so that lead pollution can be reduced to an essentially negligible amount."

Sounds alittle one-sided...

Internationally - Maybe. In the United States, Definitely Not! The lead-acid battery gains its environmental edge from its closed-loop life cycle. The typical new lead-acid battery contains 60% to 80% (sometimes 90%+) recycled lead and plastic. When a spent battery is collected, it is sent to a permitted recycler where, under strict environmental regulations, the lead and plastic are reclaimed and sent to a new battery manufacturer. The recycling cycle goes on indefinitely. That means the lead and plastic in the lead-acid battery in your car, truck, boat or motorcycle have been - and will continue to be -- recycled many, many times. This makes lead-acid battery disposal extremely successful from both environmental and cost perspectives.

BCI, Battery Council International, is the lead acid battery industry group in charge of industry standards. They have acted as a leader, actively promoting the recycling of spent lead-acid batteries and the use of recycled materials in the production of new batteries. As such the organization collects statistical data to provide the annual recycling rate of lead-acid batteries. BCI also developed model battery recycling legislation at both the state and federal levels in the U.S., as a way to efficiently recover valuable resources and keep recyclable materials out of the waste stream. The model has been adopted by legislatures in 37 states across the country.
US Lead Recycling Report ([2]Battery Council International - National Recycling Report 1999-2003)
([3]BCI Battery Recycling Page, ) mukster 00:00, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

The reaction shows that Lead Dioxide is on the Negative side, but later is says "The positive plates gradually turn the chocolate brown colour of Lead Dioxide" What's the deal?

"An odd number of plates is always used, with one more negative plate than positive." If there are 6 cells in series, how can this be true? --G N Frykman 08:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Each cell consists of alternating plates tied together to increase the surface area. K4ZL 11:53, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

According to the books, the positive plate "grows" a little as lead dioxide is transformer to lead sulfate. To prevent one-sided growth from distorting the positive plate, it is exposed to negative plates on both side so that the forces will be symmetrical. So, one more negative plate than positive plates. --Wtshymanski 16:51, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The number of plates, or for that matter, the general composition of any battery has no bearing on the number cells that constitute that battery. For instance 6 AA batteries lined up end to end would create a 6 cell, 9 volt battery. If packaged in something like a banana, paper towel tube, or similar non conductive material it could be sold as a 9 volt. 6 batteries x 1.5 volts = 9 volts. Slippery, but feasible, cheap test to run with a battery tester.

Look at 2,6,12, and 24 volt batteries. The difference is the number of cells. Per this discussion, a VRLA Battery cell generates roughly 1.8 - 2.4 volts. They explicitly say 12 volt 6 cell battery - so divide by 6. ([4]^{Lead-acid battery WIKI PAGE})

Series Connections (Positive to Negative)

Add voltage to the system So 1 cell is a 1.9-2.4 volt battery sold as a 2 volt model. 3 Cells constitutes a 6 volt battery, and so on.

Parallel Connections (Positive to Positive)

Add amperage (sometimes referred to as current) to the system. So 3 cells in parallel are still at 2.1- 2.4 volts, but have 3x amperage.

Volts X Amps = Watts. Watts is common light bulb speak for power consumption.

Each 12 volt 50 watt lightbulb needs 4.2 amps to light them up. 50w/12v=4.2a

Each battery design must weigh these three things

composition (acid, gel, li-ion), cell structure (# and configuration of cells), and resources (weight, size, lifespan). The best batteries engineer specific compromises between these elements to produce power.

Mukster 04:28, 15 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Approx how much does a typical lead-acid battery 2.1V cell weigh? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.126.51.51 (talk) 16:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was a battery design engineer and we had even number plate designs as did every US Manufacturer.

Each cell contains (in the charged state) electrodes of lead metal (Pb) and lead (IV) oxide (PbO2) in an electrolyte

seems like it would make more sense as:

.. contains in the charged state, electrodes of lead metal (Pb) and in an electrolyte, lead IV oxide (PbO2) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by T boyd (talk • contribs) 22:14, 15 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]

The former statement is more appropriate since the electrodes are BOTH submerged in electrolyte. Prince jofer (talk) 00:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a section on the problem of exploding batteries to address the issues already raised. I work in forensic engineering, and dealt with a recent problem where a mechanic lost an eye through lifting an old battery from a car. I am posting the section because it is an unusual hazard that users should know about so as to prevent possible future problems. Peterlewis 16:37, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Can a jolt cause a spark to jump between the terminals? Is this different from normal sparks from static electricity on people's clothing? Kallog 07:44, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It seems a bit odd to me, static electricity shouldn't be able to build up inside a battery, nor should anything else cause a spark inside, perhaps if you short out or mistreat the battery in a similar way, it would case enough heat to set of an explosion. I suspect the most likely scenario would be that the casing simply exploded because of the built up pressure inside the battery. Batteries exploding is probably extremely rare, would be nice to see some statistics. --Apis O-tang 03:01, 10 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Apis O-tang (talk • contribs)

I want to know What is the Quantity of Lead in the lead Acid Battery?

203.199.41.18 12:28, 28 August 2007 (UTC) Ranjeet[reply]

What is the density of Lead-acid batteries (kg/m^3 or whatever). I'm guessing about (11+2)/2 = 6.5 kg/L but wondering if anyone has real data? --Jaded-view 01:34, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The energy density and energy/size measures suggest a range of 1500 - 2500kg/m^3. -- answering my own question. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaded-view (talk • contribs) 16:44, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Deposition here any depositon tecniques for lead,lead dioxide are present it is more useful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.227.249.226 (talk) 07:38, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think a typo crept into the article under the heading "electrochemistry." Flooded cells typically require the highest charging voltages, gel cells the lowest, AGM somewhere in between. The float values are listed backwards in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.88.83.21 (talk) 05:51, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am surpised, having studied this phenomena in several batteries, and it is worth emphasising for reasons of consumer safety. If you have a problem with public safety, please air your concerns here and desist reverting without discussion Peterlewis (talk) 13:19, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know much about batteries so can someone with a better understanding of the problem go over this article about a supposedly revolutionary new generation of lead-acid batteries and update Wikipedia accordingly? Thank you. 24.83.176.171 (talk) 11:42, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't sulfate ions migrate through the wires unless countermeasures are taken? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.203.58.1 (talk) 18:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is there another image? The current image better belongs to the VRLA article. 76.66.193.69 (talk) 12:15, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

is the one I just added better?Traveler100 (talk) 17:12, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

--216.250.196.55 (talk) 07:32, 7 April 2009 (UTC)DYHYHFD[reply]

This reads like a novel. Battery "progress" is ongoing and a continuous process. There are no "current attempts" Furthermore there is no such thing as a nickel-manganese battery, if there is i'd like to get some, they should be much cheaper and more friendly than NiCd/NiMH.

reverted back to my edit on july 5th, language may be coarse but the difference is critical. I would like to point out that the original change from ni-mh to nickle-manganese about a year ago was also dubious, and has no reference. Unit cost of nickel is a mute point, it may be 10 times more expensive than lead, but its mass is 1/4 and furthermore the ratio of active material to total plate mass, there is no comparison. NiCd is expensive for just about every reason from the case, to the electrolyte to the cadmium, not the high price of nickel, also note that wikipedia doesn't have a $/Wh listed for NiCd —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.178.85.76 (talk) 23:19, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why are there only reactions for the recharging of the battery but not the spontaneous reactions which produce voltages (i.e. the actual function of the battery)? I think there should be both.--Welcome to the dark side. (talk) 23:28, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It has been proposed in this section that Lead-acid batteryberenamed and movedtoLead-acid electrochemical cell. Abot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Lead-acid battery → Lead-acid electrochemical cell — The electrochemical battery is simply a pair of electrochemical cells. this article deals around how this type of cell works. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.245.90.148 (talk • contribs) 12:02, 9 October 2009

• Oppose. The present title is common and accurate. I can go into Canadian Tire and ask where they keep the lead-acid batteries, but if I ask for electrochemical cells I'll be directed to some laboratory (if I'm lucky). --Wtshymanski (talk) 14:28, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose The common name is lead acid battery and the name of the article should remain as is. ~~ GB fan ~~ ^talk 14:52, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Definitely not. The Wikipedia name should be the common name used for the technology in vernacular usage. The cell chemistry is important and should merely be described in a section on Lead-Acid cell chemistry. N2e (talk) 14:55, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Oppose and suggest speedy close (is that possible?). This is not what the general public would be looking for. HumphreyW (talk) 15:25, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose WP:COMMONNAME 76.66.197.30 (talk) 16:13, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]