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Talk:Marsha P. Johnson: Difference between revisions

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This biographical article avoids the use of gendered pronouns.

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 August 2019 and 6 December 2019.

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OK, here are some of the main ones. As discussed regularly, and especially last month, RS sourcing a negative to statements from the subject (Never self-identified as trans) is not really possible. It's not that there are amazing, RS sources out there that we are ignoring. It's that we are dealing with a difficult-to-source bio here. But here are several strong statements of self-identification from interviews in Pay It No Mind, now with the timestamps. I'm going to nowiki them so they can be dropped in as needed. Many of these timestamps were added by productive editors in the edit summaries or are there in the notes; in those cases all that's been added is the quote. In places where something is stated in the beginning of the film, and repeatedly throughout the entire film, I haven't bothered with a timestamp (though for sake of completion, we could certainly cite those with a handful of timestamps). But as we've seen for anything at all controversial, that draws edit-warriors and POV-pushers, we need these. Also, in some places I have purposely avoided pronouns in the edits, due to it discussing times when Marsha either was insisting on a masc. name and presentation, or due to the lesser-known (and not well-documented fact) that Johnson never had "preferred pronouns," and I think some of the emphasis here on fem. pronouns, in the lede in particular, is what has led to the chronic, well-meaning but inaccurate changes to the article and even the source documents.

<ref name=ButchMakeupQueen>{{cite video |url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjN9W2KstqE |title= Pay It No Mind - The Life and Times of Marsha P. Johnson |time=14:34}} - Michael Kasino. Published on Oct 15, 2012. One of the first people to go in drag at Stonewall: "I didn't get into it right away; I was like the ''butch makeup queen'', working Greenwich Village. And then I started doing drag. ... I started becoming a drag queen." Accessed 26 Nov 2017.</ref>

<ref name=PrettyBoy>{{cite video |url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjN9W2KstqE |title= Pay It No Mind - The Life and Times of Marsha P. Johnson |time=17:32}} - Michael Kasino. Published on Oct 15, 2012. On dressing up for work and learning how to do makeup, because, "as a pretty little boy, or a pretty little transvestite, or pretty boy made up as a girl, that's the most money you're going to make." Accessed 26 Nov 2017.</ref>

<ref name=BoyTransvestite>{{cite video |url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjN9W2KstqE |title= Pay It No Mind - The Life and Times of Marsha P. Johnson |time=34:08}} - Michael Kasino. Published on Oct 15, 2012. "People used to come and bring guns, and pull guns out on me because they didn't think that I was; you know I would tell them I was a boy and I was in drag and I would tell them that I would go, like, hustling, and would they want to go out? And they'd say, 'Yes, I want to go out.' And then I'd get up in the hotel and I'd take off all my clothes and they'd say, 'I can't believe that you're a boy!' And I know this man can't believe I was a real woman. Honey, I'm just a transvestite." Accessed 26 Nov 2017.</ref>

<ref name=LunaticJohn>{{cite video |url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjN9W2KstqE |title= Pay It No Mind - The Life and Times of Marsha P. Johnson |time=34:55}} - Michael Kasino. Published on Oct 15, 2012. "It was just once in a while I would run into this ''lunatic'' who would actually have it in his mind that I was a woman. And I mean I'd tell him that I was a '''boy''' and he just wouldn't believe until he'd seen everything down my pants and everything. Another day, another illusion. [laughs]" Accessed 26 Nov 2017.</ref>

<ref name=DragQueenName>{{cite video |url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjN9W2KstqE |title= Pay It No Mind - The Life and Times of Marsha P. Johnson |time=37:17}} - Michael Kasino. Published on Oct 15, 2012. Marsha P Johnson says Marsha 'Pay It No Mind Johnson' is a "Drag Queen Name" and again self-identifies as a "boy". Accessed 26 Nov 2017.</ref>

<ref name=Homosexual>{{cite video |url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjN9W2KstqE |title= Pay It No Mind - The Life and Times of Marsha P. Johnson |time=46:00}} - Michael Kasino. Published on Oct 15, 2012. "The life I thought I'd be living as a homosexual." Also uses "homosexual" as a noun several more times in section, for self and potential husband. Accessed 26 Nov 2017.</ref>

Johnson's last two stated self-identifications in film, in 1992, ten days before going missing, are "Legendary Queen" and as part of community of "all gay people.":

<ref name=LegendaryQueen>{{cite video |url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjN9W2KstqE |title= Pay It No Mind - The Life and Times of Marsha P. Johnson |time=49:09}} - Michael Kasino. Published on Oct 15, 2012. "There's so many queens gone that I'm one of the few queens still left from the seventies today. But I'm not the only one; there's several legendary queens." Accessed 26 Nov 2017.</ref>

<ref name=GayRights>{{cite video |url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjN9W2KstqE |title= Pay It No Mind - The Life and Times of Marsha P. Johnson |time=50:22}} - Michael Kasino. Published on Oct 15, 2012. "That's how come I walk every year. That's how come I've been walking for gay rights all these years. ... You never completely have your rights, one person, till you all have your rights. And I figure as long as there's one gay person that hasn't walked for gay rights... all of us should be walking for gay rights." Accessed 26 Nov 2017.</ref>

There are more, but that's what I've got formatted for now. <3 - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 20:58, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Gagaluv1: Recent attempts to remove Marsha's birth name, Malcolm - which Marsha continued to use, along with other variations, sometimes going by the family nickname "Mikey", as well as "Marshall", may be well-meaning, but show a lack of familiarity with the sources, so I am renewing the info in this section. Marsha re-applied for the birth certificate we link here in 1990, removing the Jr., but keeping the birth name of Malcolm intact. I realize that with all the revisionist history out there, it's hard for some to understand that Marsha did not have preferred pronouns, and never really insisted on being called Marsha (it was just the most common name Marsha went by), but sometimes did insist very firmly on being called Malcolm, Marshall or Mikey. This is not part of the most popular narrative in the current activism you find among younger people online, but it's documented, as well as remembered by all of us who are old enough to have been in the Village when the "Mayor of Christopher Street" was still alive. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 20:39, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well-meaning editors. I know you all have only the best intentions with these edits, but:

Marsha Johnson did not have a "deadname" because Marsha/Malcolm/Mikey/Marshall used all four of these names throughout life. Different groups of friends used the differing names, and Marsha would sometimes ask for one of their "boy names" to be used in settings where Marsha was not in drag and preferred to not stand out. Marsha also did not have preferred pronouns (except in the aforementioned situations where also requesting one of the "boy names", and then requesting he/him). Marsha died in 1992. The scanned birth certificate is one Marsha applied for in 1990, removing the "Jr." but not otherwise petitioning for a name or gender marker change. Please read the article and talk before editing if any of this is unclear. There are a lot of misconceptions out there about Marsha, but here on WP we've dug deep into the sources and stuck with the facts. Best, - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 18:14, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also if I recall from reading, Marsha would get really upset if called that when Marsha wasn't in drag. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 20:13, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that did happen; though it wasn't always predictable based on dress. In working on this article, it's also been necessary to explain the use of in-group speech, concisely, for a general audience. When we had the gender section, I linked to Lavender linguistics in an effort to explain that, in that era and still in some quarters, the use of she/her pronouns was usually a way of signalling that the speaker was part of the gay community, rather than an indication of gender identity. This is particularly evident in the footage of Sylvia at the pier, where Rivera uses she/her to refer to everyone, of all genders and orientations. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 19:54, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Given the above, I'm a little surprised that the article consistently uses she/her pronouns without a clear explanation of why. As far as I know, Wikipedia doesn't tend to use in-group speech, and the choice of he/she/they will be read by a typical, modern reader as signalling gender identity, not e.g. being gay. The first sentence describes Johnson as a drag queen and the article goes on to say Johnson variably identified herself as gay, as a transvestite, and as a queen (referring to drag queen). [...] Johnson never self-identified with the term transgender, but the term was also not in broad use while Johnson was alive. That sounds (to my ear) more like a gay man known best for their life in drag, rather than a woman, though with plenty of ambiguity. I expect this has been discussed exhaustively before but I haven't found that discussion in the talk page archives yet. Could the article be made less ambiguous by addressing the issue of pronouns directly, or by either changing them or avoiding them? Johnson seems to be cited quite regularly elsewhere as "the black trans woman who threw the first brick at Stonewall", which may be one reason readers find themselves here, which gives the choice of pronouns an added saliency. › Mortee _talk 04:25, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's hard to source as there is actually very little well-sourced material published about Marsha. There is a lot of blatant misinformation out there. When I write about Marsha I just avoid pronouns. It's understandable that those watching the documentaries would think Marsha preferred she/her as the interviewers have encouraged that from people. Marsha's family uses "he", but some who have interviewed the family have tried to pressure them to use "she". There are people who get very upset when she/her is not used for Marsha; they mean well, but it's unfortunate that they get aggressive about it because they don't know the whole story. They really don't understand that Marsha's family and friends are not being disrespectful. Marsha was always "Mikey" with family, and "Malcolm" with some groups of friends. It's just been a matter of which documentaries have been made and by whom, and who has been published. A lot of people have stayed out of it because they don't want to be attacked. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 22:25, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The least contentious course of action would be to edit the article to avoid use of pronouns wherever possible. Parts of it already read as if that has been done. AutumnKing (talk) 09:33, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 21:10, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't make sense?

Why wouldn't the pronouns just be male pronounce since the person is a male.

First is this person is a Drag Queen they're not even claiming to be a female, A drag queen is a male dressing as a female. It's not related to being Trans.

Second, this concept of pronouns didn't even exist at that time, it might have within the LGBT community, but not considered official outside of it. If Wikipedia is going to be unbiased it should use what was considered at the time.

Third why is Wikipedia even using pronouns in this fashion anyways, it's obvious evidence that Wikipedia is biased even though it claims it is not. It's rather silly to debate about this. You'll say reliable sources use it, maybe that should make you question their reliability if they're obvious stating a wrong statement. --2605:A000:1E02:C0F7:CDA6:8651:130B:9255 (talk) 04:42, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I will not claim to be well-versed on the subject of drag, but I believe that many people use she/her when presenting as their drag personas. Therefore I feel that pronouns related to the persona should not be automatically disqualified as an option in favor of other pronouns, especially when the article clearly uses a name associated with this persona as well. I am also confused by your point that pronouns were not "considered official" outside of the LGBT+ community which they were used in — several governments (and, often, large portions of populations ruled by these governments) refuse to acknowledge the presence of people who belong to the LGBT+ community, and even less their identities and labels. I feel that it would in fact be biased to erase these people's identities based on a notion of what is or was considered acceptable or normal by their oppressors. Therefore I believe that sources within the circles should be referred to first and foremost on such issues, in order to be unbiased — not the other way around. It would, after all, be the closest thing to a personal account in the absence of sources who were personally familiar with the person. This may not apply to all in-group speech, as noted above, and unclear instances should be clarified; but in the case of oppressed communities in general, I believe that their own ways of addressing themselves or each other should be acknowledged, especially when in contradiction with the "official". Doing so does not make the article not neutral.

However, I will not argue with the points made above this discussion related to Johnson's pronouns specifically. I feel like in such uncertain cases, seeking to avoid pronouns might be the safest method. It may however seem like erasure without a further clarification; a similar reaction has been shown in relation to the article about The Public Universal Friend, for whom people thought 'they' would have been approppriate. It might be in place to add a clarification to such pages themselves with a brief reasoning on the choice of pronouns, or lack thereof, lest it be misinterpreted as erasure. Identities and ways of presentation from the past may not be directly compatible with those of the present, and sometimes things are simply confusing, but people do not always immediately realize this. Therefore I think this should be spelled out, when relevant, alongside a note about the available sources being insufficient for basing such decisions on. --ShadowMetaru (talk) 02:02, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@CorbieVreccan, BrothaTimothy, and Mortee: This talk page is inundated with well-meaning visitors' edit requests and I think something needs to be done about it (e.g. instating {{FAQ}}). Do you mind summarizing the previous consensus (if any) or discussion on Johnson's identity and pronouns? I think ShadowMetaru raises some good points, particularly insofar as a discussion of identity and pronouns in the article itself would be helpful. Nardog (talk) 12:52, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think I'm in a great position to help with that, Nardog, sorry. My only contribution was to point out what I felt was a possible inconsistency; I don't know what the right approach is. It looks like the article now uses gendered pronouns much less than it did, which is consistent with Johnson not identifying as a woman or transgender while allowing for the fact that identity categories have shifted since then and that Johnson was known as a drag queen (i.e. a female character) as well as as themselves. It can be difficult to write about a person that way, but it looks like editors have done a good job of it. › Mortee _talk 22:13, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A legal gender marker and name change on one's birth certificate is, even today, still an extraordinarily difficult process and prohibitively expensive. Thus, I don't think her birth certificate can tell you anything about her gender. These documents don't exist in a vaccuum and incorrect or inconsistent documentation can be a product of the difficulties that transgender people face having their identities legally acknowledged. Marsha did have her name legally changed according to the article accompanying today's Google Doodle. Was changing the sex marker on one's birth certificate even a possibility at the time? I don't think legal documentation can be taken as true to a person's identity in a society where the legal system doesn't properly acknowledge your identity. The same goes for somebody using their birth name and pronouns at certain times but not constantly -- I know transgender people in 2020 who ask their friends to use their birth name and pronouns in public for their own safety.

Some Stonewall veterans are still alive and still engaging in activism. Have you considered reaching out to one of them to inquire about how Marsha referred to herself? I think that would be a more reliable source than anything. Pastelprincette (talk) 14:25, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Whoever said Marsha did a name change is incorrect. The birth certificate and Social Security info linked in the article was up to date at the time of Marsha's death. The birth certificate was in Marsha's wallet. Marsha re-applied for that birth certificate in 1990, doing a partial name change to drop the "Jr." from "Malcolm Michaels". I've posted just above that in activist circles Marsha also went by Malcolm and Marshall, and family called Marsha "Mikey". This went on for Marsha/Malcolm/Marshall/Mikey's whole life, and is well known among contemporaries. Watch the videos on YouTube. There's a lot of misinformation that gets repeated by lazy writers online. Even these details would have been cleared up by reading the article, sources, and talk thoroughly. Best wishes. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 17:20, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

They got the name change bit from that terrible writeup at Outhistory. It's a student paper. The author took an early version of this WP article, kept the footnotes, but then changed the facts completely, including inventing things out of thin air.

As to summarizing the talk pages... the talk got cluttered by some very emotional, repetitive and incivil posts by one person in particular, posting under a variety of IPs. They were posting out of order, as well, which made it confusing. Perhaps their rants should be compressed. However, the discussion is all there.

Marsha "Paid it no Mind" about gender identity and pronouns. During Marsha's lifetime, introducing oneself with "preferred pronouns" was unheard of. Stating preferred pronouns is a very recent development in the LGBT community. Marsha did act uncomfortable at times when called "Marsha" or if referred to as "she/her", notably when Marsha was in "Malcolm" mode. Which is one of the reasons why we eventually moved away from defaulting to "she/her" pronouns in this article. Much of Marsha's street "drag" was simply somewhat femme clothing - what people in the community at the time referred to as "scare drag". Most of the guys who were called "queens" in the press at the time were not drag queens at all - just gay men who were not trying to be straight-passing. This is all in the Carter sources and others. Perhaps this needs to be expanded upon.

I'll look over the FAQ template and see about working on it a bit later, but I would like some of the other regular editors of the article to weigh in here, as well.

I'm not convinced the driveby disruption will stop with a FAQ. The same people who refuse to look at footnotes in the article will probably refuse to read a FAQ.

BUT, I do think this disruption is peaking with the Google doodle and its attached, unsourced, blatant misinformation. We've also seen that the disruption is seasonal. So, we're at a double peak. I think it's going to die down markedly in a few days. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:05, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I expect CorbieVreccan is right about the source of the current traffic, and the fact that it will fade shortly. I guess we'll see soon. › Mortee _talk 22:20, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Page view chart shows the spike. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 23:00, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That the traffic peaks in Pride Month (accelerated by the Google Doodle this year in particular) and that FAQ likely wouldn't prevent people from requesting edits are immaterial IMHO. My point is that having something handy we could point to in face of such requests is going to be a net gain. Nardog (talk) 12:14, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I do agree the information needs to stay prominent on the talk page, which is why I put the code on this "deadnames" and pinned quotes sections to keep them from being archived. If we do the FAQ, I still think we should have these sections, even if just to say, "See the FAQ". - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 18:40, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I didn't realize you had pinned them. I'm replacing them with {{Pin section}} and linking to the sections in {{Round in circles}} above for better visibility. Nardog (talk) 20:00, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Now that we've passed the peak page time of pride month, can we reopen the discussion on Marsha's pronouns? It seems from the above talk there is a lot of conflict about their preferred pronouns, and I think their page should better reflect that. Their performance work and identity section is somewhat confusing and misleading. I'd like to help organize an edit to more clearly talk about the things we *do* know about their identity and pronoun usage, and better compare it to modern queer customs to clarify to readers why pronouns are not used. We should also consider using they/them pronouns for their article, as that is the current custom for people we don't know the pronouns of. This, with the explanation of why, would help clarify this page is just trying to be unbiased, not disrespect Marsha's memory. --Twiinarmeggedon2 (talk) 17:19, 12 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered=or|ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 30 August 2021 and 10 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Stinkybxngwater (article contribs). An addition to the Tributes section

In March 2021 the song 'Marsha P and Me' was featured on electronic music artist Cobbler's album 'This is a good place to kiss' (Shoebox Records). This was taken from a poem dedicated to Marsha by Justin Lewis which ends with the line 'and no one is telling us what to be ever again'. Juzmania (talk) 12:29, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Looking the song up, this is almost certainly not noteworthy though. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 12:47, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

An editor added this quote from an interview first published in 1972. By later years, Johnson was not "in drag all the time" and often appeared at marches and actions in jeans, t-shirts, hoodies, jean jackets, even suits and ties, with no makeup or wig. But I don't know how to source this. It's pretty easily observable by watching the documentaries, YouTube clips and looking at photo collections. But unless someone compiles these things in an RS form, I don't know how we can balance this out. As it is, we have an outdated 1972 statement being given undue weight for someone whose life continued, developed, and kept changing for twenty more years. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 03:12, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So, to follow up: This is quote that was added last night, first fragmented, then I filled in the whole thing.diffs:

"A drag queen is one that usually goes to a ball, and that’s the only time she gets dressed up. Transvestites live in drag. A transsexual spends most of her life in drag. I never come out of drag to go anywhere. Everywhere I go I get all dressed up. A transvestite is still like a boy, very manly looking, a feminine boy. You wear drag here and there. When you’re a transsexual, you have hormone treatments and you’re on your way to a sex change, and you never come out of female clothes."

The last time this quote came up for discussion, we decided that, though it has some good material here and there, as a whole it's too scattered and confusing to merit inclusion. I think its only value is Marsha's specific description of "transvestite", as in (editing here):

In an interview with Allen Young, in 1972's Out of the Closets: Voices of Gay Liberation, Johnson discussed being a "Street Transvestite Action Revolutionary", saying, "A transvestite is still like a boy, very manly looking, a feminine boy."

and the cite itself shows that Marsha was fully aware of the terminology of the day, including "transsexual" ("A transsexual spends most of her life in drag. ... When you’re a transsexual, you have hormone treatments and you’re on your way to a sex change") but Marsha and Sylvia kind of had their own definitions for much of this terminology that is not in line with anyone else's in the era (Sylvia, for instance, claimed only gay people should be called transvestites). But the thing is, Marsha continually self-contradicts throughout both this excerpt, and the interview, and even in 1972, many of these statements were not actually true about Marsha. Marsha did not wear drag full time.

We agreed this is an interview where Marsha jokes around so much, and is so sarcastic, that everything has to be taken with a grain of salt. To put it in with an encyclopedic voice... is potentially very misleading. I didn't want to immediately revert, even though the quote was misrepresented, altered, and inserted out of context. At the time I just put in the full quote. But now I'm wondering if it should just be cut, edited down to the second pullquote above, and/or used as a contextualized footnote for a statement along the lines of Johnson being aware of the terms transsexual, etc. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:05, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The term transsexual was not used in North America until Dr Harry Benjamin used it around 1969, the year of Stonewall . At that point no state allowed gender changes and even today in 17 states you still cannot change your name for gender. It is indeed dead naming because at that point slipping between genders was absolutely necessary legally as your female name had no legal standing whatsoever. It could only be a drag name because the states would not recognize it. Transvestites are not drag queens, drag queens are not transsexuals though a few transsexuals do drag. Drag queens identify as male, cross dressers identify as male, transvestites identify as male. Marsha appears to be a transsexual who did drag in an era was there was no definition for transsexual. 104.34.202.79 (talk) 07:10, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not true: Transsexual#Origin and use. Johnson's statement of being "in drag all the time" is colloquial, like, "we go there all the time." As in "often". Especially by the 1980s and 1990s, Johnson was not in drag "all the time." While Johnson enjoyed the glamour and creativity of drag, a lot of the drag was for work, in the years when Johnson was a sex worker and performer. But even when performing, in the later productions, Johnson's look is more glam than drag. The photos of Johnson in drag are more popular, and far more circulated. Like the old adage - if you want to get photographed at Pride, go in drag. Plenty of people transitioned and did name and marker changes in the 1980s. Marsha didn't die until 1992, with a new birth certificate, with an updated name - still Malcolm, but removed the "Jr.". Marsha wasn't even using the name "Marsha" with all friends and family, but also went by Malcolm, Marshall or Mikey. Watch the documentaries, and the interviews with family and other friends on YouTube (as opposed to the opining by those who never met Johnson, and most of whom weren't alive in that era and write misinformation like you've posted). Johnson did not self-id as a woman, or as a transsexual, but, in Johnson's own words, just days before death, as "a transvestite", "a homosexual", and "a drag queen". If you don't like it, take it up with Johnson's spirit; don't try to rewrite history. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 18:51, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Equivamp: Maybe it's the way the diff is displaying, but I can't tell what was added, and the content about Marsha's family's religion during Marsha's childhood was deleted by Nate. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 23:17, 6 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I found it. Moar Catholic stuff. Which is fine, but it's not fine that Natemup (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) deleted other content about religion that wasn't Catholic. See, he's been doing disruptive editing on many articles involving promoting the Catholic Church. And thank you for correcting the illogical "Biography" structure; that's what I was referring to. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 23:24, 6 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) :The brief "Personal life" section detailing Johnson's end-of-life Catholicism, complete with an additional source and a quote. The information removed was largely not reflected in the sources cited, except for the part about attending the Episcopal church during childhood (which admittedly should be restored). --Equivamp - talk 23:30, 6 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Corbie has an ongoing personal conflict with me, and that's where their edits are coming from. My edits elsewhere have not been proved disruptive by any consensus or neutral admin, but it is what it is.

As for this article, I initially could not find the AME reference in the NYT source, but I see it now. Other sources (including ones I added) say Johnson was raised Catholic. The other changes I made were mostly stylistic in nature, and the blanket revert was obviously uncalled for. natemup (talk) 01:07, 7 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think religious/spiritual beliefs are more or less personal that one's sexuality and mental health, so it seems undue weight to have that section just be a pull quote about Catholicism. Especially given how eclectic Marsha was, and the context in which it was added. I've made some adjustments accordingly. The stuff about the personal altar to the Saints is in the Village Voice source. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 00:50, 7 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So instead of moving the other stuff you yourself deem personal into the "Personal life" section, you revert a whole slate of edits including that and totally unrelated stuff, leaving no personal section at all? natemup (talk) 01:48, 7 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The direct quote from Johnson does not say "blood". That was editorializing from that webpage, which has all sorts of errors. This what Johnson actually says in the video interview: “I practice the Catholic religion because the Catholic religion is part of the Santería of the saints, which says that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.” Go to 4:12 to listen / see for yourself. Because the word is not 100% clear, though, I originally cut the middle bit of that sentence. While I guess it is possible Marsha made a mistake and said "Sangria"... it makes no sense. The closed captioning has it as "Santeria" as well (surprising, as the cc is generally not very good).

"Sangria" does not translate to anything having to do with the saints, while "Santería" clearly does - it's specifically about the kind of syncretic, personal work with Catholic saints and other spirits that Marsha was known to have been practicing.- CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 22:02, 7 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Makes sense. I didn't realize the article was inaccurate. Has it been removed? natemup (talk) 16:27, 9 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. This was Johnson's only involvement in "Catholicism". Marsha was actually a lowercase "c" catholic - eclectic in practice. Marsha said in the PINM interviews, "I use St. Mary's Church", "I use Jesus," (emphasis added). I think Marsha started going to the nearby Catholic church because Randy Wicker's apt. and store were too cluttered for there to be space for a home Santeria altar. Marsha also didn't know it was OK to face the altar, and would lie on the floor, perpendicular to the altar, prostrate before the statue of Mary. A friend had to clarify that it was OK to face the altar. (Again, this is all in PINM.) Someone raised Catholic would not be confused about this. I don't know why Bronski thinks Marsha was raised Catholic, as absolutely no one who actually knew Marsha, or Marsha's family, has ever said this. Usually Bronski does good work. I have to say that, in this case, he simply did not. It's unfortunate. I can add more sources about Marsha's family's AME involvement, but I think it's clear the preponderance of sources indicate that Bronski is simply wrong in this case. I think the Bronski claim should just be cut or, as I did, left in but as a footnote. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 00:00, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

From what I read, she chose not to face the altar, and it's clear from the first-person quote in the article that she regarded herself a Catholic in some sense. The other comments about her religion seem to be all third-person (though she does also speak of her practice in a way that indicates nonstandard Catholic practice). In any case, burying a claim from a book so as to prioritize internet articles seems a bit brash to me. But then again, you are openly not a fan of Catholicism and have a history of interfering with my edits on the topic. So it goes... natemup (talk) 01:38, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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transgender woman, not drag queen SLT06 (talk) 03:07, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. —Sirdog9002 (talk) 03:20, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The identity sections are well-sourced, and have been repeatedly discussed. Please read the pinned sections on talk, and the quotes from "Pay It No Mind". Watch the interviews with Marsha Johnson in the film and pay attention to Johnson's own statements of self-identification. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 19:18, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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Stop using Johnson's name so much. Use her pronouns and change "drag queen" to "trans woman". 2A00:23C7:1F82:E501:E076:5AE0:A33F:2C88 (talk) 17:33, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: This matter has been discussed by editors on this page. Changing pronouns on the page or specific terms relating to Johnson would require consensus and isn't appropriate for an edit request. —Sirdog (talk) 20:39, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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Please remove her deadname. This is super transphobic and you can talk about her activism without leaking her deadname. 2607:FEA8:F20:5500:6CAA:B397:1C9:E986 (talk) 23:25, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. See discussions above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:33, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

While the term 'transgender' was not in common usage at the time of Marsha, there is clear evidence that Marsha would've been considered transgender had she been alive today. "They really can’t tell the difference about me because I’m on my way to be a sex change.

I have hormone treatments, and my bust is, uh, about a, a small… It’s a small bust, but it’s a nice handful and they feel that nice handful and they automatically go into the illusion that I might be real. From going into hormones, I’ve gotten so that I, I kind of, kind of just like heterosexual men."

https://makinggayhistory.com/podcast/bonus-episode-from-the-vault-sylvia-rivera-marsha-p-johnson-1970/

This should be mentioned in the main article as it is disingenuous and a political decision to deny Marsha's trans identity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.198.127.129 (talk) 03:25, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Marsha was 25 when those early musings were recorded... and they conflict with the statements Marsha made when 46 years old. On Wikipedia, we go with the subject's most recent stated gender identification, which would be the interviews in 1992 in which Johnson id'd as a "drag queen", "homosexual", and "gay boy". Please page up to look at the time stamps for the interviews with Marsha in Pay It No Mind, and take Marsha's word for it. And... fwiw, look at photos of Marsha.

Also, you dropped the next line of that quote, where Marsha says, "And if I was to marry a male, it would strictly be a gay male because I don’t care for heterosexual men as a husband." And then Marsha talks about women as『Well, that’s what they’re good for doing.』[emphasis added] The "they're" is women. Marsha does not identify as a woman in that interview, but repeatedly as a transvestite. And Sylvia leans once again towards a third gender perspective on what that means. As for hormones... if Marsha ever took hormones when young, it wasn't for very long, and it's doubtful it even happened. There are also interviews where Marsha says, "they didn't work!" because I never saw, and have never seen photos of, Marsha with breasts. There are, however, plenty of photos of Marsha shirtless or in see-through tops, so anyone can check. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:07, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If HRT gave everyone breasts then breast augmentation surgery wouldn't exist. And nonbinary identities are valid. And the definition of transgender is someone whose gender identity differs from the sex they were assigned at birth. I think it is pretty clear that both Marsha and Sylvia's gender identity differed to the one they were assigned at birth. You can't second guess primary evidence on whether she took hormones or not; she said that she did, unless you can provide evidence contrary then the evidence stands that she did. Accessing Gender realignment surgery is costly in America, someone in Marsha's position would've found it near impossible to pay for and that would be something that she would have to come to terms with, but that does not deny that she never wanted it, especially when she clearly states that she wanted it. Finally, we already established that the terminology that we use today is different to that which was used back then. Throughout the 80s and early 90s I was bullied at school for being gay not trans because the two words were interchangeable in a cis-het view of the world. As I said, missing out of the article that Marsha took hormones and ignoring evidence that she did without providing links to convincing evidence to suggest otherwise is a political decision. The article needs to mention that Marsha took hormones and wanted a 'sex change' as per the evidence that I provided.