{{Discussion top|result=Not merged - there is a clear consensus against a merge here, and a view that the two sets of films are distinct enough for their own articles. Discussion about a potential overarching article seems to be addressed by the existence of [[Middle-earth in motion pictures]]. [[User:Turnagra|Turnagra]] ([[User talk:Turnagra|talk]]) 03:21, 1 June 2024 (UTC)}}
I propose merging [[The Hobbit (film series)]] into [[The Lord of the Rings (film series)]]. As has been pointed out in previous conversations, and by other editors besides myself -- ''The Lord of the Rings'' film series includes the original ''LOTR'' film trilogy, ''The Hobbit'' prequel trilogy, and now the 2 upcoming standalone prequel films: ''The War of the Rohirrim'' and ''The Hunt for Gollum''. To have 2 separate articles for the film trilogies is both excessive and inconsistent. For comparison, I would refer all editors to the ''Star Wars'', ''Star Trek'', ''X-Men'', and ''Wizarding World'' articles. Each of these articles include multiple trilogies and installments. None of them require an individual page for each trilogy. As was also pointed out by other editors, it has been attempted at various times to condense these articles and create one detailed replacement for the film series -- but it continues to be reverted. Please engage in discussion below, and include why/why not you believe this merger should happen. I will post a similar alert on ''The Hobbit'' film series current article talk page.[[User:DisneyMetalhead|DisneyMetalhead]] ([[User talk:DisneyMetalhead|talk]]) 06:09, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
I propose merging [[The Hobbit (film series)]] into [[The Lord of the Rings (film series)]]. As has been pointed out in previous conversations, and by other editors besides myself -- ''The Lord of the Rings'' film series includes the original ''LOTR'' film trilogy, ''The Hobbit'' prequel trilogy, and now the 2 upcoming standalone prequel films: ''The War of the Rohirrim'' and ''The Hunt for Gollum''. To have 2 separate articles for the film trilogies is both excessive and inconsistent. For comparison, I would refer all editors to the ''Star Wars'', ''Star Trek'', ''X-Men'', and ''Wizarding World'' articles. Each of these articles include multiple trilogies and installments. None of them require an individual page for each trilogy. As was also pointed out by other editors, it has been attempted at various times to condense these articles and create one detailed replacement for the film series -- but it continues to be reverted. Please engage in discussion below, and include why/why not you believe this merger should happen. I will post a similar alert on ''The Hobbit'' film series current article talk page.[[User:DisneyMetalhead|DisneyMetalhead]] ([[User talk:DisneyMetalhead|talk]]) 06:09, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
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:: Could somebody please close this as [[WP:SNOW]]. Many thanks. [[User:Chiswick Chap|Chiswick Chap]] ([[User talk:Chiswick Chap|talk]]) 14:45, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
:: Could somebody please close this as [[WP:SNOW]]. Many thanks. [[User:Chiswick Chap|Chiswick Chap]] ([[User talk:Chiswick Chap|talk]]) 14:45, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
{{Discussion bottom}}
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The Lord of the Rings / The Hobbit / The War of Rohhirim / The Rings of Power film franchise[edit]
It was previously very clear that these two trilogies and TV series spin-off were closely related, and one large film franchise. Looking at the article's current form, I see that there is no mention of these other properties. What is the reasoning behind separating these articles? Wouldn't a format similar to the Star Trek and Star Wars articles be more complete/helpful to the average reader?--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 04:13, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There doesn't seem to be any logical explanation as to why these were separated in to multiple articles. I'm going to begin working on a draft of what a better format could look like. Input from other editors would be appreciated.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 08:01, 15 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I wish you luck on it. I have been adding brief mentions of the Hobbit trilogy to the article, but they keep getting removed. ChristianJosephAllbee (talk) 12:28, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@ChristianJosephAllbee: I'm sorry to hear that as that kind of behavior, without any logical reason as to why it is occurring is an example of WP:OWNing. I will attempt to make some edits and see where it gets me. This article used to be inclusive, while it is now completely reclusive of all related media. There shouldn't be numerous articles for the same franchise.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 03:44, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I made a little edit mentioning the trilogy. There is no reason at all why the trilogy shouldn't be mentioned here, as it was made by the same team (basically) featured many cast members returning and is even considered to be the same films series by the film makers. I also think The Rings of Power and War of the Rohirrim should be mentioned, because these works clearly tie into this trilogy (as much as the Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor & Shadow of War video games, which ARE mentioned in the article), regardless of personal feelings of certain editors, these works do exist and do tie into this trilogy, even if only loosely, and are part of its legacy.91.19.224.8 (talk) 07:09, 17 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Saw the Movie trilogy The Lord of the Rings and had also seen the Hobbit series...I thought the Hobbit series was more faithful to Tolkkien book as for the Fellowship of the rings it had a good beginning...but it kept jumping around of three different although interconnected stories....Bilbo Baggins was more beleivable than Frodo who keeps fainting; putting on the Ring, or getting stabbed or poisoned...you get the feeling Frodo friend is more faithful to the pupose to desrtoying the Ring than Frodo who subcomebs to the Ring powere but who is saved by Gollum....for example when the The Ords of the Rings..then Ents destroying the Sarameon tower...they dont show the Directors Cuts death of Sarameeon who falls from the tower for Wormtongue or the death of that another similar characther killed in the Hobbit who accidently propels himself into an Orc mouth becuase of his own greed — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.49.39.250 (talk) 17:11, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@ChristianJosephAllbee:, 91.19.224.8 -- I am going to start reintegrating The Hobbit into this article (especially since the movies are prequels to LOTR, and since the 2 new prequel films have been confirmed to be in the same continuity). 72.49.39.250 I'm not at all sure what your post was saying, as it seemed to be your own review for the movies(?).--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 07:29, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's also worth noting that The Rings of Power TV show is unrelated to these movies, BUT we could include in pros (perhaps in the Legacy section) the fact that when it was originally being developed -- all creatives involved had hoped to be able to be set within the same continuity. We would obviously note that they are separate due to film rights, but note that Howard Shore was hired to write the main theme, and the production was intended to reference The Lord of the Rings film series.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 08:03, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This article is about Lord of the Rings trilogy and should not be integrated with The Hobbit. At the moment, the most appropriate place for giving an overview of the entire film franchise is probably Middle-earth in motion pictures. - adamstom97 (talk) 14:12, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Adamstom.97:that is precisely why I am brought this conversation back to this article. The Lord of the Rings film series, includes the original LOTR trilogy, The Hobbit prequel trilogy, and the 2 upcoming standalone prequel films: The War of the Rohirrim and The Hunt for Gollum. As-is, this article is not complete nor in good form. As I had pointed out above^, The Hobbit article should be merged into this article.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 06:02, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Not merged - there is a clear consensus against a merge here, and a view that the two sets of films are distinct enough for their own articles. Discussion about a potential overarching article seems to be addressed by the existence of Middle-earth in motion pictures. Turnagra (talk) 03:21, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I propose merging The Hobbit (film series) into The Lord of the Rings (film series). As has been pointed out in previous conversations, and by other editors besides myself -- The Lord of the Rings film series includes the original LOTR film trilogy, The Hobbit prequel trilogy, and now the 2 upcoming standalone prequel films: The War of the Rohirrim and The Hunt for Gollum. To have 2 separate articles for the film trilogies is both excessive and inconsistent. For comparison, I would refer all editors to the Star Wars, Star Trek, X-Men, and Wizarding World articles. Each of these articles include multiple trilogies and installments. None of them require an individual page for each trilogy. As was also pointed out by other editors, it has been attempted at various times to condense these articles and create one detailed replacement for the film series -- but it continues to be reverted. Please engage in discussion below, and include why/why not you believe this merger should happen. I will post a similar alert on The Hobbit film series current article talk page.DisneyMetalhead (talk) 06:09, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
DisneyMetalhead. why was I pinged? All I did was revert some vandalism. I need not be pinged, for something I barely contributed to. Yoshi24517 (Chat) (Very Busy) 05:59, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I merely went through and pinged every contributor, while attempting to follow proper guidelines. Cheers. DisneyMetalhead (talk) 15:13, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose merge, as this is not just a Film article, with the conventions of that WikiProject, but obviously, and to my mind primarily, a Middle-earth article, with a WikiProject that has different expectations. For a purely film article, I can imagine that "prequels" look like minor appendages to be attached without much ceremony to the main body.
But Middle-earth sharply segregates articles about The Hobbit, a 1937 children's book, from articles about The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien's magnum opus, described variously as a heroic romance, an epic novel, and (in Brian Attebery's words) the "centre" of the modern fantasy genre. We have separate templates for the two works. In this context, it looks quite wrong to conflate films of the one book with films of the other. Clearly the Hobbit films were made on the coat-tails of the Lord of the Rings films; but they were a pure afterthought, and much violence had to be done to the spirit of the children's book to work the film coverage up into a trilogy. I suggest we leave the Hobbit film series article alone, and simply have a brief section in the LOTR (film series) article with a "main" link and a short summary-style paragraph to cover the Hobbit films, as also the forthcoming prequel films which similarly have rather sketchy connections to LOTR (to put it mildly). Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:55, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose merge - My opinion is that these two articles about each film trilogy should not be changed, as the creation of and reception to each trilogy easily justifies an entire summary article like this and there is a bunch of good information included which doesn't really fit within a classic film franchise overview page. Not to mention if we merged these two together the new article would be in the "Almost certainly should be divided or trimmed" category of WP:SIZERULE, and that is before adding information on at least three more films. If a more traditional franchise article, which is a lot more streamlined than these two are, is to be made then I believe it should be separate from these two rather than a merger. Based on the navbox that we already have at {{Middle-earth film franchise}}, I think it would make sense to create the new article at Middle-earth film franchise. Perhaps you could start a draft for that DisneyMetalhead and then come back here for others to think about moving it to mainspace? - adamstom97 (talk) 09:28, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can begin working on a draft -- it sounds as though so far, the arguments are that both articles are long enough/detailed enough to have their own articles, while an overall franchise article would be constructive (similar to the various MCU articles). While I understand User:Chiswick Chap's arguments, it sounds more in line with a division between the novels media, than these movies. I'll see what I can do with a very basic draft. The issue however is that it will need contributions from each of you to be anywhere near a good article status. DisneyMetalhead (talk) 15:16, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is already an article called Middle-earth in motion pictures, and it contains a well-structured and well-cited chapter called Warner Bros. and New Line Cinema........ Perhaps before you go very far with your draft of Middle-earth film franchise, you might consider copying that chapter (with attribution to that article in your first edit comment) in its entirety, and then seeing if you actually need to say very much at all that it doesn't say already. Certainly we don't need a WP:CFORK here, so if you insist on going ahead, you should plan to cut down the chapter there to a brief introductory paragraph, and I guess a single paragraph on each of the chapter's subsections, with a "main" link to your new article. It would of course be possible to cut it down even further than that, but I think that would feel very uneven by comparison with the rest of that article. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:45, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think what DisneyMetalhead is interested in is different from Middle-earth in motion pictures, which is a development history of Tolkien's works being adapted for motion pictures. I believe DisneyMetalhead wants something along the lines of List of Star Trek films which is more of an overview list of the franchise with links to the different articles that go into more detail. - adamstom97 (talk) 18:18, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Potentially, some articles like that don't use "List of" in the title but still have the same basic formatting. I would support using the "List of" title since it clarifies the intent to keep it as an overview and not duplicate the information that is here or at the motion pictures article. - adamstom97 (talk) 18:47, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is exactly what I and some other editors have been trying to sort out. I will try making a draft, and let you guys know when I have it. It's going to take some time (obviously). Chiswick Chap we will see at that point if we need to cut portions of the "Middle-earth in motion pictures article" sections down at all. DisneyMetalhead (talk) 13:24, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose merge per Cheswick Chap. The suggestion for a section in the LOTR article with a "main" link sounds like a good alternate solution. Geoff | Who, me? 12:43, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose merge, the articles are too big too be merged and LOTR and The Hobbit are separate trilogies set in the same universe, so it's only fitting to have separate pages as well. --Mazewaxie (talk • contribs) 14:05, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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