User:Lettherebedarklight: Difference between revisions

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== [[Talk:Transgender genocide/Archive 1#Not a genocide|just... everything about this.]] ==

{{hat

| result = Pretty clear this discussion is going nowhere good. [[User:Sideswipe9th|Sideswipe9th]] ([[User talk:Sideswipe9th|talk]]) 22:09, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

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This is literally not a genocide. Trans people aren't a minority ethnic group that is being killed systemically. This whole "trans genocide" term is disrespectful to those who were victims of real genocide. [[Special:Contributions/78.135.101.108|78.135.101.108]] ([[User talk:78.135.101.108|talk]]) 11:03, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

:This is addressed in reliable sources (many of which explicitly argue for the expansion of the definition of genocide) and in the article itself. This page is for discussion of the article, not of your personal grievances with the topic. <span style="color:green">[[User:ThadeusOfNazereth|ThadeusOfNazereth]](he/they)^{[[User talk:ThadeusOfNazereth|Talk to Me!]]}</span> 21:34, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

::The word "genocide" should be replaced with a word that actually fits considering the definition has yet to be changed. Perhaps it would be prudent to re-label the article as "Discrimination against Transgender People"? Genocide specifically deals with nationalities and ethnic groups, not gender. It feels like people are trying to just stick a buzzword in without a reason to. [[Special:Contributions/2600:6C52:7E7F:F52F:C928:9DAD:B737:85F8|2600:6C52:7E7F:F52F:C928:9DAD:B737:85F8]] ([[User talk:2600:6C52:7E7F:F52F:C928:9DAD:B737:85F8|talk]]) 05:52, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

::Yeah Thaddeus when you change the definition of a word - IT CHANGES THE DEFINITION OF THAT WORD.

::So you use the new definition of the word while relying relying on readers to use the actual definition of the word.

::It's It's sneaky slimy tactic I see more and more these days and apparently you aren't smart enough to see through it. [[Special:Contributions/2001:8003:7CCB:A901:AD7E:5F5F:EC47:C80|2001:8003:7CCB:A901:AD7E:5F5F:EC47:C80]] ([[User talk:2001:8003:7CCB:A901:AD7E:5F5F:EC47:C80|talk]]) 06:03, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

::Mentally ill dudes changing definitions of words, who would have thought. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/178.43.239.249|178.43.239.249]] ([[User talk:178.43.239.249#top|talk]]) 16:05, 19 July 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:There is no trans genocide going on anywhere on the planet. This page is incredibly disrespectful and is based on the fantasies of mentally ill people on Twitter. [[Special:Contributions/81.96.202.32|81.96.202.32]] ([[User talk:81.96.202.32|talk]]) 22:06, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

If there’s a reliable source that argues this (trans g) is not a genocide, or that it’s disrespectful to other victims, that source and its main points can be put in the article [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 12:20, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

:It looks like there is already a word that describes what this article is attempting to call genocide. How about Transgendercide? There doesn't appear to be a rational reason to expand the definition of genocide. A quick look at the Oxford dictionary shows that the word has greek origins, genos + cide, with 'genos' literally meaning race and the suffix '-cide' denoting an act of killing. I attached a link to a wikipedia page on Gendercide, which seems to fit this article perfectly.

:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendercide [[Special:Contributions/2600:6C52:7E7F:F52F:C928:9DAD:B737:85F8|2600:6C52:7E7F:F52F:C928:9DAD:B737:85F8]] ([[User talk:2600:6C52:7E7F:F52F:C928:9DAD:B737:85F8|talk]]) 06:13, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

::Are you arguing that there was never a genocide of jewish people in World War 2 because being Jewish is not a race but a religion? also being transgender is not a gender, there are both transgender men, transgender women and transgender non-binaries thus it don't exactly fit the gendercide definition as it wouldn't target a single gender. Some happenstances of gendercide could have transphobic motivations and thus fit within the scope of transgender genocide, but certainly not all of them. [[Special:Contributions/88.141.158.167|88.141.158.167]] ([[User talk:88.141.158.167|talk]]) 07:55, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

:::Jews are an ethnoreligious group, as stated in the first line of their wikipedia entry. This is why the term 'genocide' applied to the Holocaust: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews

:::Transgender people are not a race, a nationality, or an ethnic group. They are identified by being gender non-conforming. As such, the word Gendercide is much more fitting than the word genocide. Discrimination against them is specifically due to gender nonconformance.

:::If you would like to argue that Transgender people are somehow a race, a nationality, or an ethnic group, then that should be included in this wikipedia entry to justify the use of 'genocide'. As of right now, it just looks like the wrong word is being deliberately used for nebulous reasons. [[Special:Contributions/2600:6C52:7E7F:F52F:C928:9DAD:B737:85F8|2600:6C52:7E7F:F52F:C928:9DAD:B737:85F8]] ([[User talk:2600:6C52:7E7F:F52F:C928:9DAD:B737:85F8|talk]]) 15:17, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

::::If there’s a reliable source that argues your point, then that point can be added to the encyclopedia.

::::If you are trying to better understand the application of the concept of genocide to transgender people, I suggest you start with the Kidd/Wittern, Kritz, and Eichert sources in the article. [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 15:38, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

:::::As stated in their own works, they admit that the definition of genocide needs to be expanded for what they personally as activists consider to be a genocide. The word Gendercide already exists to describe what they've observed. You can't prove a negative, so asking for a source repeatedly is incredibly bad faith. This is a simple case of blatant misuse of a word, conceivably to score political points. [[Special:Contributions/2600:6C52:7E7F:F52F:C928:9DAD:B737:85F8|2600:6C52:7E7F:F52F:C928:9DAD:B737:85F8]] ([[User talk:2600:6C52:7E7F:F52F:C928:9DAD:B737:85F8|talk]]) 15:45, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

::::::Yes, some admit that the legal defintion would need to be expanded: for that context, the article is about their proposed application of genocide. But some folks do not think they need to wait for a legal determination or expansion, they are applying the concept without confirmation of the law, because the use of concepts and discourse are not actually bound by or enforced by law. There's no law against using a concept like genocide in various realms of discourse, and that's what the reliable sources here are doing. I suppose I need not repeat my point about the ability to bring up reliable sources that dispute this usage, but it's important for readers (of my comments) to understand how Wikipedia functions and is written. You may think they are misusing a word, the question is whether we can find reliable sources to make that point and then put it in the "criticism" section. [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 16:58, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Jews have specific genes, which is why its a *geno*-cide. There is no evidence transsexuality/transgenderism is genetic in any way. [[User:SlimyKlerburt|SlimyKlerburt]] ([[User talk:SlimyKlerburt|talk]]) 08:24, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

:[[Causes of gender incongruence#Genetics]] [[User:Tjf801|Tjf801]] ([[User talk:Tjf801|talk]]) 14:53, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

:The term "genocide" does not literally require shared genes. Case in point, the UN definition of genocide explicitly covers religious groups, like Jews. You can convert to Judaism. You don't have to be genetically related to other Jews to be a Jew. [[User:LokiTheLiar|Loki]] ([[User talk:LokiTheLiar|talk]]) 18:52, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Jews are absolutely a race, we admit that we are and I can't imagine why we would shy away from that. We have a nation-state of our own built around Jewish ethnic identity. So no, genocide does not fit here. Especially since the actual issue at hand is not the systemic murder of Trans people, but suicide. We don't call the mass-suicide of white men in the Midwest a "genocide"... [[User:ConstantineChase|ConstantineChase]] ([[User talk:ConstantineChase|talk]]) 13:56, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

:If there’s a reliable source that argues your point, then that point can be added to the encyclopedia. [[User:ProfGray|ProfGray]] ([[User talk:ProfGray|talk]]) 14:55, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

{{hab}}

== [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2014 January 29#User:Spe88/GoTo.Main Page|wikipedians will argue about anything]] ==

:The result of the discussion was <!-- Template:Rfd top--> '''no consensus'''. <strong style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User:WJBscribe|WJBscribe]] [[User talk:WJBscribe|(talk)]]</strong> 16:12, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

----

*{{no redirect|1 = User:Spe88/GoTo.Main Page }} → [[Main Page]] <span class="plainlinks">([[Special:Whatlinkshere/User:Spe88/GoTo.Main Page|links to redirect]] • [{{fullurl:User:Spe88/GoTo.Main Page|action=history}} history] • {{stats.grok.se|1=User:Spe88/GoTo.Main Page|year=2013|month=12|text=stats}}</span>)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<small><nowiki>[</nowiki>&nbsp;Closure:&nbsp;<span class="plainlinks">''[{{fullurl:User:Spe88/GoTo.Main Page|action=edit&summary={{Urlencode:[[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2014 January 29#User:Spe88/GoTo.Main Page]] closed as keep}}}} keep]/[{{fullurl:User:Spe88/GoTo.Main Page|action=delete&wpReason={{Urlencode:[[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2014 January 29#User:Spe88/GoTo.Main Page]] closed as delete}}&wpMovetalk=1}} delete]''</span>&nbsp;]</small>&nbsp;

No incoming links; user hasnt contributed for 6 years. <span style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User:John Vandenberg|John Vandenberg]] ^{'''([[User talk:John Vandenberg|chat]])'''}</span> 09:09, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

*'''keep'''. Exactly what benefit do you see will be accrued from deletion here? [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 12:23, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Meaningless, useless, worthless. In a word, junk. Don't encourage junk. — [[User:Scott Martin|'''<span style="color:#000">Scott</span>''']] <span style="color:#900">•</span> [[User talk:Scott Martin|''<span style="color:#000">talk</span>'']] 12:59, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

*'''Keep.''' Calling a redirect names is inadequate rationale for deletion. This is not a "really harmful" redirect. There is nothing here that supports deletion. &ndash;&nbsp;'''''<small>[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="color:darkblue; font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</span>]]</small>'''''&nbsp;^{[[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<b style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">''C<small>LIMAX</small>!''</b>]]} 21:20, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' - even if they haven't been a while, productive users should be given a lot of freedom to play around with their userspace as long as it isn't harmful. Harshly treating encyclopaedia-building users for no gain will discourage participation and make the atmoshpere here more hostile, a huge detriment to the project. [[User:WilyD|Wily]][[User talk:WilyD|<span style="color:#FF8800;">D</span>]] 09:32, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

::Nice red herring, but nobody is proposing treating encyclopedia-building users harshly. Spe88 gave up on this project in April 2007 and thus is not an encyclopedia-building user ''by definition''. We are not obliged to maintain every shred of abandoned meaningless clutter (no incoming links, exactly zero prospect of ever getting any) created by long-gone users experimenting. — [[User:Scott Martin|'''<span style="color:#000">Scott</span>''']] <span style="color:#900">•</span> [[User talk:Scott Martin|''<span style="color:#000">talk</span>'']] 14:12, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

:::Neither you nor I know when or if they'll return to the project. That they ''may'' not return is not a good reason for us to be dicks to them when it is of zero benefit to the encyclopaedic building project. That you feel the need to [[othering|other]] them to justify gross mistreatment of them is telling. [[User:WilyD|Wily]][[User talk:WilyD|<span style="color:#FF8800;">D</span>]] 15:47, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

::::LOL. That is all. — [[User:Scott Martin|'''<span style="color:#000">Scott</span>''']] <span style="color:#900">•</span> [[User talk:Scott Martin|''<span style="color:#000">talk</span>'']] 17:45, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

:::::Scott, please treat other contributors with respect even if you disagree with them. WilyD is entirely correct that we don't know whether a user is coming back or not, and that it is an entirely inappropriate to treat them as somehow inferior because of that. The user was apparently in good standing when they left and so remains in good standing unless and until they return and actively engage in behaviour that changes that status. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 18:17, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

::::::WilyD's comment is quite possibly the most laughable thing I've ever read in a Wikipedia discussion, and I've been here a ''long time''. It's not right; it's not even wrong. This business about "inferiority" and "standing" is entirely in your own mind, by the way, and is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand. Which, as it appears to be necessary to return to the point, is the point of maintaining useless junk in our database for the benefit of an imaginary person - Spe88's ghost. Not Spe88; Spe88 is gone, gone, gone. Anyone with the slightest shred of common sense is able to see that, but WilyD apparently swapped his for a tendency to engage in histrionic rhetoric. — [[User:Scott Martin|'''<span style="color:#000">Scott</span>''']] <span style="color:#900">•</span> [[User talk:Scott Martin|''<span style="color:#000">talk</span>'']] 21:50, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

:::::::What part of "treat other users with respect" and "assume good faith" do you not understand? Additionally, please show evidence of the harm caused by this redirect, evidence for your assertion that Spe88 is imaginary, and evidence for your assertions that WilyD has no common sense and is engaging in histrionic rhetoric. You should not need to be reminded that [[WP:No personal attacks]] is a policy that applies to everybody. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 00:50, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' per nom. (Disclosure: I saw this discussion mentioned off-site.) I can't see how this redirect is useful to anyone. If by any chance the user should return, it is a matter of 2 minutes for them to recreate it. We shouldn't keep lots of redirects lying around that are of no use to anyone. It's just good housekeeping. [[User:Jayen466|Andreas]] <small>[[User_Talk:Jayen466|<span style="color:#FFBF00;">JN</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Jayen466|466]]</small> 23:15, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

**Good housekeeping implies there is benefit from the activity. Please can you explain what the benefit actually is as nobody above has yet done so. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 08:37, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

***Let's note first of all that the "activity" requires an infinitesimal amount of work, and that deletion has no discernible downside whatsoever. Thus even a small benefit results in a positive cost/benefit ratio. So here are some of the potential benefits of deletion: (1) The "What links here" page for the main page will be less cluttered, ensuring that the pages shown there might actually be of interest to an editor checking the "What links here", and that such an editor will not have to sift through detritus to find what is of interest. (2) The redirect is clearly not watched. It could at any time be used to redirect to anything whatsoever. As such it could be used for various types of vandalism and mischief. (3) Unused user space redirects like this one inflate project stats, adding noise to project data. (4) Imagine a user created several thousand useless redirects like this. It would impose additional overhead on the servers. Creating the impression that any useless page in user space is a legitimate use of Foundation resources is likely to encourage undesirable behaviour. (5) If an editor bothered to nominate the thing in good faith, to oppose deletion for no project benefit whatsoever seems pointy, and unlikely to increase enthusiasm for participation. I could understand if there was something worth fighting for here, but there is literally nothing. [[User:Jayen466|Andreas]] <small>[[User_Talk:Jayen466|<span style="color:#FFBF00;">JN</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Jayen466|466]]</small> 00:23, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

****The "nothing" worth "fighting for" should never be about a contest, but about the consensus found in the policies and guidelines. The appropriate guideline for this type of redirect (beyond what we read at the top of the main RFD page) is found at [[WP:USERSPACE]], which guides us that {{maroon|''redirects from userspace subpages to mainspace are common and acceptable.''}} There is no reason to go to the trouble it would take to delete this perfectly harmless redirect. &ndash;&nbsp;'''''<small>[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="color:darkblue; font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</span>]]</small>'''''&nbsp;^{[[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<b style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">''C<small>LIMAX</small>!''</b>]]} 16:01, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' Its a worthless CNR. Like {{u|Jayen466}} said, there is literaly no reason to keep all these useless redirects that people dont use. [[User:Beerest 2|<span style="font-family: Verdana, monospace;letter-spacing:1px;color:#ECCA61;padding-left:5px;">Beerest 2</span>]] <small>[[User_talk:Beerest 2#Top|talk]]</small> 19:46, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

*'''Weak Delete''' per Andreas, but without prejudice against Spe88 recreating it. Please leave a note to Spe88 in and closing statement and/or deletion summery that he's free to recreate this. [[User:Emmette Hernandez Coleman|Emmette Hernandez Coleman]] ([[User talk:Emmette Hernandez Coleman|talk]]) 04:01, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

*'''Weak delete''', basically verbatim per EHC. --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 17:50, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' The redirect doesn't meet any of the criteria at [[WP:RFD#DELETE]], and it may be [[WP:RFD#KEEP|useful to the user]] (even if they haven't edited, we don't have a policy of clearing out a retired user's userspace) and the [[WP:UP#Categories, templates that add categories, and redirects|user pages guideline says it's "acceptable"]]. <b>[[User:Callanecc|Callanecc]]</b> ([[User talk:Callanecc|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Callanecc|contribs]] • [[Special:Log/Callanecc|logs]]) 09:42, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

== [[Special:Diff/1097706798|best diff]] ==

The closest I can see regarding sports almanac specifically in WP:NOT is in WP:NOTNEWS #2 (and maybe possibly #4), and <s>{{highlight|peaking|red}}</s> {{highlight|peeking|green}} at us in the spirit,

== [[User:Bilorv/Challenges#Rock around the clock|list of wikipedians with little or no sleep]] ==

Make an edit in each of the 168 hours of the week (in UTC), as measured by your XTools timecard.

* Winners: [[User:Aoidh|Aoidh]], [[User:Anon423|Anon423]], [[User:Bilorv|Bilorv]], [[User:ComplexRational|ComplexRational]], [[User:Elli|Elli]], [[User:JPxG|JPxG]], [[User:Kusma|Kusma]], [[User:MaranoFan|MaranoFan]], [[User:Premeditated Chaos|Premeditated Chaos]], [[User:Tamzin|Tamzin]], [[User:Theleekycauldron|theleekycauldron]], [[User:Vaticidalprophet|Vaticidalprophet]], [[User:SounderBruce|SounderBruce]] [[User:MeegsC|MeegsC]], [[User:Kingsif|Kingsif]], [[User:Gog the Mild|Gog the Mild]], [[User:Vami IV|Vami_IV]], [[User:Your Power|Your Power]]

== [[Wikipedia:We already have enough of those, thank you very much|possibly the best essay ever]] ==

{{Wikipedia:We already have enough of those, thank you very much}}

== [[Special:PermanentLink/1088951878|people are weird]] ==

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In order:<br>

ABC 1962 logo<br>

ABC 2021 logo<br>

SBT logo<br>

SBT 2014 logo<br>

TTYL

New test text

New test text

New test text1

===Tabued===

Tabued is 3 towns.

As 1 January, 2

{| class="wikitable"

|- style="white-space:nowrap;"

! Towns

! Population

|-

| Tenpue

| 514

|-

| Nataceg

| 20

|-

| Abmiga

| 10

|}

====Tenpue====

=====Bus=====

{{Routemap

| title = Tenpue Bus Line 1

| title-color =

| title-bg = #0c7a0c

| navbar =

| inline = {{{inline|}}}

| map =

\gKBHFa~~Hsatseh

\gBHF~~Jaoesh

\gBHF~~Brpasa

\gKBHFe~~Kanuaun}}

add please

====Nataceg====

====Abmiga====

<!--Please don't remove Sandbox and Addis Abada section!!!-->

===Addis Abada===

{{clear}}

== [[User talk:Venomous Sniper|if this is a bluelink the following is a lie]] ==

{| style="margin:0 auto 10px;min-width:300px;" cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 width=80%

!width=70 height=50 bgcolor=#FEE rowspan=2|<div class="triangle" style="background-color:#F00;color:#FFF;">!</div>

!colspan=5 bgcolor=#FEE style="font-size:150%;"|<u>NOTICE</u>

!width=70 height=50 bgcolor=#FEE rowspan=2|<div class="triangle" style="background-color:#F00;color:#FFF;">!</div>

|-

|bgcolor=#FEE|{{center|This page will be deleted on January 1, 2019.}}

|}

== [https://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/wiki/Main_Page that's deep] ==

;<s>Today's featured picture

[[File:Goat.jpg|thumb|left]]

Goats are very cute.</s>

{{clear}}

=== thanks a lot, theresnotime ===

;Today's featured picture

[[File:Twemoji12 1f98a.svg|thumb|left]]

Goats are very cute, but [[fox]]es are cuter.

{{clear}}

== [[Special:PermanentLink/883082370|laments of a new page patroller]] ==

{{archive top}}

''My Dearest Brunhilde,''

''I write to you now that I am finally settled in the mines of the New Pages Feed. My accommodations are humble, but sufficient here at the reviewer's village. The work is long, but we have been making good progress ever since we got through the cluster of lists about events that occurred to various branches of the Armed Forces of the United States of Central America (1821). The pay is abysmal and not worth mentioning. I miss you with all my heart, and cannot wait for the day that we are reunited.''

''Sincerely,''

''[[Poor soul he's gone|Arthur37]] ([[Blue|talk]]) 23:17, 7 February 1876 (UTC)''

{{archive bottom}}<br />{{archive top}}

''My Dearest Brunhilde,''

''Things have become more difficult since I wrote you last. We were drilling deep into the bedrock of the Feed when suddenly a series of articles about individual startups in Serbia collapsed onto us. They each had exactly one source each that wasn't blatantly promotional, and we had to search in both Cyrillic and Latin. Three reviewers haven't been seen since, and the feed has grown a thousand pages in the meantime. We have been forced into double shifts to compensate. Despite all of these hardships, my love for you endures.''

''Sincerely,''

''[[Poor soul he's gone|Arthur37]] ([[Blue|talk]]) 21:09, 10 March 1876 (UTC)''

{{archive bottom}}<br />{{archive top}}

''My Dearest Brunhilde,''

''I am afraid that this has been a difficult two months. Two reviewers got in a fight about something inconsequential at the village and ended up both getting slapped with temporary blocks. The work has piled on so high that it now takes me at least forty minutes just to clear my watchlist at the beginning of each day. Still, we approved a wonderful group of well-written articles about women who fought against slavery in the 1850s. It is bright moments like this that bring a shine to the otherwise dull life that I have had to lead since your father banished me to this place.''

''Sincerely,''

''[[Poor soul he's gone|Arthur37]] ([[Blue|talk]]) 6:44, 11 May 1876 (UTC)''

{{archive bottom}}<br />{{archive top}}

''My Dearest Brunhilde,''

''Forgive me for being so long since your last missive, I assure that I have read and treasure every one of them. These months have been terrible. Some idiot kept swapping the content of articles about North Africa with nostalgic articles about the Roman Empire and the Mussolini era before accusing everyone of being Italianophobic and Maltese on the talk page. Then I had to spend weeks cleaning up in the AfD because an editor kept sending sockpuppets to delete discussion pages for articles they started. Rations have been cut and several reviewers appear to have caught scurvy. The backlog is piling up so high that some of the editors have confessed that they haven't always searched for coverage in languages other than English before applying PROD. Your love is my only light in these darkest caverns.''

''Sincerely,''

''[[Poor soul he's gone|Arthur37]] ([[Blue|talk]]) 11:23, September 1876 (UTC)''

{{archive bottom}}

{{archive top}}

''My Dearest Brunhilde,''

''Earwig's Copyvio Detector has gone down. May God have mercy on our souls.''

''Sincerely,''

''[[Poor soul he's gone|Arthur37]] ([[Blue|talk]]) 22:40, November 1876 (UTC)''

{{archive bottom}}

== [[Special:PermanentLink/1107904436#a question|textbook WP:NOTFORUM violation]] ==

has anybody here heard of Battle For Circle? [[User:Somecoolguy12345|Somecoolguy12345]] ([[User talk:Somecoolguy12345|talk]]) 02:32, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

:@[[User:Somecoolguy12345|Somecoolguy12345]]: Welcome to the Teahouse! I had not heard of this, but found some information with a quick Google search. I do not see any mention of it in the English Wikipedia. Do you have a question about Wikipedia? Thanks! [[User:GoingBatty|GoingBatty]] ([[User talk:GoingBatty|talk]]) 02:43, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

::Battle For Circle is one of my favorite object shows

::it has 20 circles and 14 episodes all named circle (BFDI has 63 episodes so far for comparison) [[User:Somecoolguy12345|Somecoolguy12345]] ([[User talk:Somecoolguy12345|talk]]) 15:11, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

:::@[[User:Somecoolguy12345|Somecoolguy12345]], do you have a question about editing Wikipedia? This is a place for folks to ask questions about editing. [[Special:Contributions/199.208.172.35|199.208.172.35]] ([[User talk:199.208.172.35|talk]]) 15:18, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

::::no not really [[User:Somecoolguy12345|Somecoolguy12345]] ([[User talk:Somecoolguy12345|talk]]) 15:31, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

== [[User talk:Praxidicae/Archive 28#August 2022|four admins, one admin, and a pickle]] ==

{{atop|This is going to places where no one wants or needs to be going. Take a walk, have some tea, come back in the morning and see if this is really as big a deal as it is starting to become. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 20:26, 29 August 2022 (UTC)}}

[[File:Information.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Hello, I'm [[User:Swatjester|Swatjester]]. I wanted to let you know that one or more of [[Special:Contributions/Praxidicae|your recent contributions]]&#32;to [[:NAFO (group)]] have been undone because they did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use your [[User:Praxidicae/sandbox|sandbox]]. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the [[Wikipedia:Teahouse|Teahouse]] or the [[Wikipedia:Help desk|Help desk]]. ''Please stop removing sourced, cited material. The policies you are citing are not applicable.''<!-- Template:uw-vandalism1 --> [[User:Swatjester|<span style="color:red">⇒</span>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<span style="font-family:Serif"><span style="color:black">SWAT</span><span style="color:goldenrod">Jester</span></span>]] <small>^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!}</small> 19:57, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

:Are you kidding me @[[User:Swatjester|Swatjester]]? I'm not a newbie here, and you're an administrator. Before leaving me templated messages it would help if you actually bothered to ''read'' the sources being used - which are BLP violations, unreliable, [[WP:SYNTH]] and [[WP:NOR]]. The onus is on the person trying to include BLP content, not the one removing it. [[User:Praxidicae|<span style="color: snow; font-weight: bold; background: linear-gradient(DarkGreen, Green, DarkOliveGreen, ForestGreen, SeaGreen)">PICKLEDICAE🥒 </span>]] 19:59, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

*{{ec}} {{u|Swatjester}}, she removed an unreliable source, anchor.fm and two spam links to buy, saintjavelin.com and legionoffellas.com. That, and you just templated a regular. Maybe you should revert yourself. [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2&cent;</b>]] 20:00, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Literally none of those policies applied. And yes, you aren't a newbie, so you should know better, Praxidiciae.[[User:Swatjester|<span style="color:red">⇒</span>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<span style="font-family:Serif"><span style="color:black">SWAT</span><span style="color:goldenrod">Jester</span></span>]] <small>^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!}</small> 20:03, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

*{{ec}} You're not an admin in this case, {{u|Swatjester}}, as you're [[WP:INVOLVED|involved]] in an edit war to reinstate unreliable sources and spam links. And honest to fuck, why am I having to explain this to you, Swatjester - you know far better than to engage in shit like this. Get a grip, revert yourself, apologise to Prax and move along to something more useful. [[User:Nick|Nick]] ([[User talk:Nick|talk]]) 20:04, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

::And you know better than to violate [[WP:CIVIL]] like this. FAFO, Nick. Try me. [[User:Swatjester|<span style="color:red">⇒</span>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<span style="font-family:Serif"><span style="color:black">SWAT</span><span style="color:goldenrod">Jester</span></span>]] <small>^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!}</small> 20:05, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

::What are you talking about? I've literally made one edit, reverting this. How is that an edit war, and how am I involved? [[User:Swatjester|<span style="color:red">⇒</span>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<span style="font-family:Serif"><span style="color:black">SWAT</span><span style="color:goldenrod">Jester</span></span>]] <small>^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!}</small> 20:04, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

:::{{re|Swatjester}} Dan, do you need help in counting ? You've made two +664 byte edits reverting Praxidicae. This isn't like you at all. [[User:Nick|Nick]] ([[User talk:Nick|talk]]) 20:06, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

::::Curious, I didn't realize we were on a real first name basis, Nick. [[User:Swatjester|<span style="color:red">⇒</span>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<span style="font-family:Serif"><span style="color:black">SWAT</span><span style="color:goldenrod">Jester</span></span>]] <small>^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!}</small> 20:19, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

::::Yes, my first edits to the article. Do you need help in learning to read an edit log history? Do you struggle with dates? One was reverting, upon which I issued the warning, and one reverting again. That's not an "Edit war" and that's not making myself an "involved user." You're better than this, Nick. [[User:Swatjester|<span style="color:red">⇒</span>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<span style="font-family:Serif"><span style="color:black">SWAT</span><span style="color:goldenrod">Jester</span></span>]] <small>^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!}</small> 20:13, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

:::{{tq|FAFO, Nick. Try me}} threatening another editor (and admin, to boot!) on my talk page, coming from an administrator who doesn't have a clue about [[WP:BLP]] is really peak [[WP:CIR]]. [[User:Praxidicae|<span style="color: snow; font-weight: bold; background: linear-gradient(DarkGreen, Green, DarkOliveGreen, ForestGreen, SeaGreen)">PICKLEDICAE🥒 </span>]] 20:10, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

:::::Imagine trying to make a point about competency, when your literally first response was to accuse me of not having read, then cited inapplicable policies, then condescendingly telling me that I "know better". I'll return the same energy y'all are throwing back out. If y'all can't be civil, I'm not gonna waste my time on pleasantries either. [[User:Swatjester|<span style="color:red">⇒</span>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<span style="font-family:Serif"><span style="color:black">SWAT</span><span style="color:goldenrod">Jester</span></span>]] <small>^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!}</small> 20:15, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

::::::{{tq|I'll return the same energy y'all are throwing back out.}} Go for it because as far as I can see, your level of competence is non-existent and you're completely unaware of [[WP:BLP|core policies]] despite your [[sealioning]] which is doubly concerning for someone who has tools. [[User:Praxidicae|<span style="color: snow; font-weight: bold; background: linear-gradient(DarkGreen, Green, DarkOliveGreen, ForestGreen, SeaGreen)">PICKLEDICAE🥒 </span>]] 20:19, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

::::{{re|Swatjester}} You'll need to indulge me, I'm not entirely certain what FAFO means. I can't imagine it's the definition "Fuck Around and Find Out" which is what Urban Dictionary claims, as that would obviously be some sort of threat, but you wouldn't be threatening me as you're clearly concerned that Dennis is threatening you and saying FAFO would breach your own interpretation of the civility policy, wouldn't it ? In any case, do please indulge me. [[User:Nick|Nick]] ([[User talk:Nick|talk]]) 20:13, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

:::::: Nah, I think you've been indulged long enough. I'm done talking to you, as well. [[User:Swatjester|<span style="color:red">⇒</span>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<span style="font-family:Serif"><span style="color:black">SWAT</span><span style="color:goldenrod">Jester</span></span>]] <small>^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!}</small> 20:22, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

:::::::[[WP:ADMINACCT]] applies to you @[[User:Swatjester|Swatjester]]. [[User:Praxidicae|<span style="color: snow; font-weight: bold; background: linear-gradient(DarkGreen, Green, DarkOliveGreen, ForestGreen, SeaGreen)">PICKLEDICAE🥒 </span>]] 20:23, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

::::::::Inactivity rules are too lax. -- [[User:Ferret|ferret]] ([[User_talk:Ferret|talk]]) 20:26, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

:Wow, how poignant of you. Read the policy and then get back to me. I know it's been awhile since you've been around but [[WP:BLP]] is a non-negotiable policy too. But by all means, keep giving me bullshit warnings and saying you're right without proving it. [[WP:CIR]] applies doubly to admins. [[User:Praxidicae|<span style="color: snow; font-weight: bold; background: linear-gradient(DarkGreen, Green, DarkOliveGreen, ForestGreen, SeaGreen)">PICKLEDICAE🥒 </span>]] 20:05, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

::NAFO is a group, not a living person. Try using an applicable policy. [[User:Swatjester|<span style="color:red">⇒</span>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<span style="font-family:Serif"><span style="color:black">SWAT</span><span style="color:goldenrod">Jester</span></span>]] <small>^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!}</small> 20:06, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

:::Jester, you are about to bark up the wrong tree. Please revert yourself so we don't have to get ugly about this. Go look at the actual domains listed in those "cites", then tell me I'm wrong. [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2&cent;</b>]] 20:07, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

::::What do you imply by "getting ugly." Please, be specific with your threats. [[User:Swatjester|<span style="color:red">⇒</span>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<span style="font-family:Serif"><span style="color:black">SWAT</span><span style="color:goldenrod">Jester</span></span>]] <small>^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!}</small> 20:09, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

:::::Ugly is what is happening now, for starters. Don't play stupid. She made a valid edit, removing three inappropriate domains. Someone has already removed two of them, and you are doubling down instead of simply looking at the domains, which I've already asked you to do. Are you saying links to buy products are ok on Wikipedia? Are you saying anchor.fm is a reliable source? Are you saying leaving a message for disruptive editing is a valid message to leave here? Two admins are here disagreeing with your handling and judgement. [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2&cent;</b>]] 20:14, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

:::::::So now I'm playing stupid? We're done here, Dennis. I'm not speaking to someone who can't speak to me respectfully. [[User:Swatjester|<span style="color:red">⇒</span>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<span style="font-family:Serif"><span style="color:black">SWAT</span><span style="color:goldenrod">Jester</span></span>]] <small>^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!}</small> 20:18, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

:::::: Yes, links to websites that sell products *can* be OK on Wikipedia when they're self-referential, as they are in this case. It's literally pointing out that the group have their own meme w/ physical merchandising on what is one of the largest fundraising charities for Ukraine, one that has resulted in the President and Defense Minister of the country wearing those products prominently. That's wildly different than spam, and you know this. [[User:Swatjester|<span style="color:red">⇒</span>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<span style="font-family:Serif"><span style="color:black">SWAT</span><span style="color:goldenrod">Jester</span></span>]] <small>^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!}</small> 20:18, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

::::::Let's make that three admins. -- [[User:Ferret|ferret]] ([[User_talk:Ferret|talk]]) 20:18, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

:::It's talking about '''living people'''. Did you read? [[WP:BLP]]? The entire section you sourced to Twitter is garbage and the opposite of what BLP allows. Fandom is more appropriate for the garbage you're trying to push. And yes, the other two apply as well. [[User:Praxidicae|<span style="color: snow; font-weight: bold; background: linear-gradient(DarkGreen, Green, DarkOliveGreen, ForestGreen, SeaGreen)">PICKLEDICAE🥒 </span>]] 20:08, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

::::What living person? NAFO is not a living person. The fella dog is not a living person. So be specific -- since you've never actually made it clear, and I've asked several times, what is the specific BLP violation here, on whom, and where at? [[User:Swatjester|<span style="color:red">⇒</span>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<span style="font-family:Serif"><span style="color:black">SWAT</span><span style="color:goldenrod">Jester</span></span>]] <small>^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!}</small> 20:10, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

:::::Enlighten me, what sources are being used to include [[NAFO_(group)#Notable_members]] that meet [[WP:RS]]? And then explain to me how [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=NAFO_(group)&diff=1107396026&oldid=1107395769 either of these sources] are at all relevant and not complete and utter [[WP:CORPSPAM|trash]]? [[User:Praxidicae|<span style="color: snow; font-weight: bold; background: linear-gradient(DarkGreen, Green, DarkOliveGreen, ForestGreen, SeaGreen)">PICKLEDICAE🥒 </span>]] 20:13, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

::::::How about you answer my question first. [[User:Swatjester|<span style="color:red">⇒</span>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<span style="font-family:Serif"><span style="color:black">SWAT</span><span style="color:goldenrod">Jester</span></span>]] <small>^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!}</small> 20:20, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

:::::::I have answered your question - is your account compromised? How about this, we take this to AN to discuss your behavior as an editor and administrator because I have serious concerns about your ability to edit, much less be an administrator at this point. [[User:Praxidicae|<span style="color: snow; font-weight: bold; background: linear-gradient(DarkGreen, Green, DarkOliveGreen, ForestGreen, SeaGreen)">PICKLEDICAE🥒 </span>]] 20:22, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

::::::::You haven't answered anything that I can see. But I can repeat it if you'd like: what is the specific BLP violation here, on whom, and where at? [[User:Swatjester|<span style="color:red">⇒</span>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<span style="font-family:Serif"><span style="color:black">SWAT</span><span style="color:goldenrod">Jester</span></span>]] <small>^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!}</small> 20:23, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

:::::::::I literally linked it above, are you unable to see my edit at [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Praxidicae&diff=1107398394&oldid=1107398386 20:13], which I'll note you responded to. [[User:Praxidicae|<span style="color: snow; font-weight: bold; background: linear-gradient(DarkGreen, Green, DarkOliveGreen, ForestGreen, SeaGreen)">PICKLEDICAE🥒 </span>]] 20:25, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

:::::::@[[User:Swatjester|Swatjester]] the biographies of living people policy applies anywhere that living people are being written about. Including living people as “members” of some organisation is definitely in scope of BLP. It is rather concerning that you seem to be unaware of this. [[User:Firefly|<span style="color:#850808;">firefly</span>]] <small>( [[User talk:Firefly|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Firefly|c]] )</small> 20:23, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

::::::::And there are sources to verify that inclusion. So what's the violation? For instance, here's Kinizinger self-identifying as a member. [https://twitter.com/AdamKinzinger/status/1554466482012278785] [[User:Swatjester|<span style="color:red">⇒</span>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<span style="font-family:Serif"><span style="color:black">SWAT</span><span style="color:goldenrod">Jester</span></span>]] <small>^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!}</small> 20:25, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

{{abot}}

== [[Special:PermanentLink/177945850|this is 2007 wikipedia, people]] ==

UR MOM'S A RANDOM SANDBOX CRAP

nuhuh NO U LOL GAYS.

LOL SANDBOX ON WHEELS

HAAGGGEERRRR!!! Sandbox!

[[User:Ryan57|Ryan]] ON WHEELS!!!!!

== [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive969#A proud moment for Wikipedia|i need to go to bed]] ==

{{atop|[[WP:COLONEL|Right, stop that - it's silly....]] [[User:Ritchie333|<b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b>]] [[User talk:Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)</sup>]] 15:27, 23 November 2017 (UTC)}}

[[File:Sooooo tired, Must sleeeeep. Budapest, Hungary (23375543131).jpg|thumb|280px|Not everyone managed to stay awake before getting to the end of [[User talk:EEng]]]]

{{atop|<small>([[Wikipedia:Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small> All right, all right. This is a very silly discussion, and I'm bringing it to an end before anyone else accidentally sabotages their own ARBCOM candidacy. [[User:power~enwiki|power~enwiki]] ([[User talk:Power~enwiki|<span style="color:#FA0;font-family:courier">π</span>]], [[Special:Contributions/Power~enwiki|<span style="font-family:courier">ν</span>]]) 23:14, 21 November 2017 (UTC)}}

[[File:Arches_Fingers_IMG_0058_3.jpg|thumb|205px|"In Memorandum: An Editor's Hand after Scrolling down [[User:EEng|EEng's]] Talk Page." [[User:Eman235]]/talk 5:40 am, 29 May 2017 (UTC−5)<br/><div style="text-align:center;">'''Winning caption'''</div>]]

According to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&action=info#mw-pageinfo-watchers] this is the '''1,000,000th edit to ANI!!!''' You may all bow down to me. (And yes, I padded in a few edits to get there{{snd}}I have to go to bed.) '''[[User:EEng#s|<span style="color:red;">E</span>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<span style="color:blue;">Eng</span>]]''' 08:39, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

:<small>I just went one better. [[User: Neil S Walker|Neil S. Walker]] ([[User talk: Neil S Walker|talk]]) 08:42, 21 November 2017 (UTC)</small>

::I wouldn't say he "paddied in a few edits to get there" - rather that he EEngineered it. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] ^{''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''} [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 10:32, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

*'''Delete AN/I''' barely edited, viewed, or watched page. Clearly no need for it. :) [[User:Ansh666|ansh]][[User talk:Ansh666|<span style="font-size:80%">''666''</span>]] 09:13, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

*'''Delete AN/I''' and '''Permaban EEng'''. It was fun while it lasted. --[[User:Tarage|Tarage]] ([[User talk:Tarage|talk]]) 09:15, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

*'''Indef EEng''' per [[WP:TE]]/[[WP:POINT]]. [[User:DMacks|DMacks]] ([[User talk:DMacks|talk]]) 09:21, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

*I cant believe he wasted it on this post tbh. Should have posted something that required rev-deletion. [[User:Only in death|Only in death does duty end]] ([[User talk:Only in death|talk]]) 09:25, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

:*You could say that this ''does'' warrant revdel... [[User:Chaheel Riens|Chaheel Riens]] ([[User talk:Chaheel Riens|talk]]) 10:06, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

*'''Delete AN/I''' Fails [[WP:GNG]] and [[WP:MILL]], page is in all likelihood just another place to air grievances. [[User:SamHolt6|SamHolt6]] ([[User talk:SamHolt6|talk]]) 09:32, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

*'''Giant Boomerang''' - This is just another timesink thread started by EEng. At this point it's clear that EEng is [[WP:NOTHERE|not here to contribute]] to the overall improvement of the encyclopaedia. Support CBAN without SO. (<small><small><small><small>jk... but only slightly</small></small></small></small>) I'm leaning weak support on the delete AN/I too. [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 09:33, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

*[[WP:DENY]]. —/[[User:Mendaliv|'''M'''<small>endaliv</small>]]/^{<small>[[User talk:Mendaliv|2¢]]</small>}/_{<small>[[Special:Contributions/Mendaliv|Δ's]]</small>}/ 09:48, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

*'''Siteban EEng''', while we're at it revoke TPA, range block everything EEng could possibly use, I want to see every CheckUser on point to stop him coming back. This [[WP:GAME|gaming Wikipedia]]. Also, delete ANI as it is clearly the largest soap box in the factory. [[User:Blackmane|Blackmane]] ([[User talk:Blackmane|talk]]) 09:55, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

**'''Rangeblock''' 0.0.0.0/0; I checked and ''every single vandal'' was using that range up until they started finding some IPv6 space. [[User:DMacks|DMacks]] ([[User talk:DMacks|talk]]) 14:15, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

*'''Keep''', Yes it has its faults and I see the delete !vote points, but what page doesn't? Its much better to have a centralised discussion here rather than spread out across the project. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.5em 0.5em 0.6em;"> '''[[User:The C of E|<span style="color:red;">The C of E </span><span style="color:blue;"> God Save the Queen!</span>]]''' ([[User talk:The C of E|<span style="color:darkblue;">talk</span>]])</span> 10:12, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' Look ArbCom don't have many cases nowadays so they should just handle everything [[User:My name is not dave|<sup style="color:#093">My name is</sup><small style="color:#4000FF">not</small><sup style="color:#093">dave</sup>]] <small>([[User talk:My name is not dave|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/My name is not dave|contribs]])</small> 10:16, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

*'''Indef Topic Ban''' EEng from all other pages than AN/I. He [[Caught in a Trap and I Can't Back Out 'Cause I Love You Too Much, Baby|deserves it]]. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 10:33, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' [[WP:Great Dismal Swamp]], as not based on [[WP:AGF]]. A million + 19 edits that could have gone to articles ;) --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 10:42, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

:*<small>[[Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea|+20 edits]]. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 10:56, 21 November 2017 (UTC) </small>

*Why are y'all loitering around here for? Go build the encyclopedia... oh wait. [[User:MER-C|MER-C]] 13:34, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

*'''Promote''' - it's about time this article appeared on the main page. While we're at it, let's [[WP:DDMP|delete the main page]]. [[User:Ivanvector|Ivanvector]] (^{[[User talk:Ivanvector|Talk]]}/_{[[Special:Contributions/Ivanvector|Edits]]}) 13:41, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

*'''Not going to add anything to this crapfest'''. <small><small>And you can't make me.</small></small> [[User:Softlavender|Softlavender]] ([[User talk:Softlavender|talk]]) 13:46, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

*'''SanFranBan''' at this point this is all we as a community can request. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] ^{[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|<span style="color: Green;">(talk)</span>]]} 14:51, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

**Can't we also request an ice cream party with a bounce house and pony rides? Or a unicorn that farts rainbows? [[User:DMacks|DMacks]] ([[User talk:DMacks|talk]]) 15:21, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

***<small>That last item would be [[Agricultural emissions research levy|subject to tax]]. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 17:13, 21 November 2017 (UTC) </small>

*'''Pig the pipes or indef Wikipetan''' We have enough editors. [[User:L3X1|L3X1]] [[User talk:L3X1|<small>(distænt write)</small>]] 15:45, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

*'''Send EEng to the [[Phantom Zone]]''' '''[[User:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">Dark</span>]][[User talk:Darkknight2149|<span style="color:black;">Knight</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Darkknight2149|<span style="color:grey;">2149</span>]]''' 15:59, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' - EEng inadvertently created a way for editors to quickly locate active admins. He deserves to be enshrined in the Museum of Alle-wiki-glory. ^{[[User:Atsme|<span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme</span>]][[User talk:Atsme |📞]][[Special:EmailUser/Atsme|📧]]} 16:01, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

::<small> Too true. The only reason this is a "cesspit" is because editors do cesspitty things here. [[WP:BAREYOURBEHIND]] is where they need to go :) [[User:L3X1|L3X1]] [[User talk:L3X1|<small>(distænt write)</small>]] 16:10, 21 November 2017 (UTC) </small>

*'''Keep''' EEng here in this cell, now that he's padded it. In fact, according to [https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/articleinfo.py?page=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&server=enwiki] he's the top contributor here, which would normally be a call to move him to a new facility, but by the same source he's deleted more than he's contributed, so it's all good. [[User:78.26|<span style="border:1px solid black;color:red; padding:1px;background:1h5h1h"><span style="color:008B8B"><b>78.26</b></span></span>]] _{([[User talk:78.26|spin me]] / [[Special:Contributions/78.26|revolutions]])} 16:36, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

::<small>And most of those deletes were correcting his own edits before acquiring the feature, "Show preview and changes". ^{[[User:Atsme|<span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme</span>]][[User talk:Atsme |📞]][[Special:EmailUser/Atsme|📧]]} 17:14, 21 November 2017 (UTC) </small>

:: That's only analyzing the past 10,000 edits. That's only 2 months worth. [[User:Natureium|Natureium]] ([[User talk:Natureium|talk]]) 20:04, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

:::<small>Shhh!! A full in-depth analysis of the situation is discouraged around here. [[User:78.26|<span style="border:1px solid black;color:red; padding:1px;background:1h5h1h"><span style="color:008B8B"><b>78.26</b></span></span>]] _{([[User talk:78.26|spin me]] / [[Special:Contributions/78.26|revolutions]])} 20:15, 21 November 2017 (UTC)</small>

*'''Bent railroad spike''' instead of boomerang. -[[User:Roxy the dog|'''Roxy,''' Zalophus californianus.]] [[User talk:Roxy the dog|'''barcus''']] 17:18, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

*<span style="transform:rotate(160deg);display:inline-block;margin:2em 0">'''Upside-down boomerang'''</span> instead of bent railroad spike. [[User:Cyp|Κσυπ ''Cyp'']] [[User talk:Cyp|&nbsp;]] 17:45, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

*'''Delete ANI''' - now can we get our friendly neighborhood stewaard to act on this obvious consensus? [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 17:49, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

*'''Redirect''' to [[three ring circus]]. They're both the same thing, right? [[User:Lepricavark|Lepricavark]] ([[User talk:Lepricavark|talk]]) 18:19, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

::<small>I'm not entirely sure. Isn't one generally considered more dangerous than the other? [[User:78.26|<span style="border:1px solid black;color:red; padding:1px;background:1h5h1h"><span style="color:008B8B"><b>78.26</b></span></span>]] _{([[User talk:78.26|spin me]] / [[Special:Contributions/78.26|revolutions]])} 18:48, 21 November 2017 (UTC)</small>

:::<small>Yes, but which one? [[User:Lepricavark|Lepricavark]] ([[User talk:Lepricavark|talk]]) 18:55, 21 November 2017 (UTC)</small>

:::: How about a redirect to [[Great Dismal Swamp maroons]] instead? Recommended reading! --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 18:57, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

* '''Redirect ANI to {{u|EEng}}''' - He is God now. -- [[User:Darkknight2149|Sock puppet of Darkknight2149]]<!-- Added by the real DK2149, by the way. -->

*'''Close discussion:''' Wonder what this is all about? Is this even any incident? Is this a joke of a hang-around or something? This does not look much of a legitimate incident discussion. I do understand that ANI has hit a milestone of over a million edits, but suddenly, things should be cut short, so that admins can be focused on the job. Cannot have too much fun here. [[User:Slasher405|Slasher405]] ([[User talk:Slasher405|talk]]) 19:17, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

*'''Refer to Friend Computer''', as fun is manditorily prohibited. - [[User:The Bushranger|The Bushranger]] _{[[User talk:The Bushranger|<span style="color: maroon;">One ping only</span>]]} 19:20, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

*'''Demand a recount'''. It seems much much more..Are you taking into account the 29 foot deep stratum of ancient peanut shells which proves conclusively that this noticeboard has seen continuous human drahma-based habitation for at least 5,000 years?{{Citation needed}}. [[User:Irondome|Irondome]] ([[User talk:Irondome|talk]]) 20:25, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

:::<small> Uhm, Irondome...you said "stratum of ancient [[Scrotum|peanut shells]]" - sounds a bit anatomical. You can't be talking about [[medicine ball|EEng]]. {{FBDB}}</small> ^{[[User:Atsme|<span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em; color:#A2006D;">Atsme</span>]][[User talk:Atsme |📞]][[Special:EmailUser/Atsme|📧]]} 22:22, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

*'''Roll for initiative'''. EEng is clearly an evil wizard that must be defeated. [[User:Oknazevad|oknazevad]] ([[User talk:Oknazevad|talk]]) 20:27, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

*'''Redirect''' AN/I to the [[WP:Teahouse|Teahouse]], then redirect TH to [[WP:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]], then redirect AFC to AN/I, then step back and watch while chaos ensues. –[[User:FlyingAce|FlyingAce]]^{[[User talk:FlyingAce|✈hello]]} 20:44, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

*'''Right! Stop that!''' [[Wikipedia:Stop that, it's silly|It's silly]]. '''<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS; font-size:1.3em; letter-spacing:-0.07em; line-height:1em;">[[User:nagualdesign|<span style="color: #000000;">nagual</span>]][[User talk:nagualdesign|<span style="color: #ABAB9D;">design</span>]]</span>''' 20:57, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

*'''Permaban''' Clearly in order here. There is a time for thinking and a time for action and ''THIS IS NOT A TIME FOR THINKING!!!'' [[User:Buffs|Buffs]] ([[User talk:Buffs|talk]]) 22:22, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

{{abot}}

*Thank you for all your kind words. You've brought a moment of joy into the life of a lonely and forgotten shut-in.

*Lest anyone get the wrong idea, it's true I'm the top contributor to ANI in the last X months, measured by number of edits. But I rush to point out that fully 40% of my edits are using OneClick to archive old threads. The ''actual'' top busybody here is {{U|Beyond My Ken}}. He's got almost as many edits as I do, and 0% of them are OneClick. '''[[User:EEng#s|<span style="color:red;">E</span>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<span style="color:blue;">Eng</span>]]''' 02:15, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

:*It's even worse when you look at '''''all''''' my edits to this page overall, including my previous two accounts [http://tools.wmflabs.org/supercount/index.php?user=Before+My+Ken%7CBetween+My+Ken%7CBeyond+My+Ken&project=en.wikipedia]. Of course, even 8921 edits (this one makes <s>8922</s> <s>8923</s> <s>8924</s> 8925) is only 4% of my total of 218,686 edits (now <s>281,687</s> <s>281,688</s> <s>281,689</s> 281,670) -- almost all of them made by hand, with no automation or semi-automation. Of course, I estimate that I make about 2-3 copyedits to each AN/I comment after I post it, so it's actually something like 1% to 1.4% of my total edits. Looked at in this way, I believe there are many editors whose edits to this page make up a much more sizable portion of their overall edits. Take the editor (naming no names, and not an admin, but a name that would be recognized by old-timers here) whose 2855 edits to AN/I made up '''''14%''''' of their 24,450 overall edits.{{parabr}}So... am I a busybody? Yeah, maybe, probably, but I also pull my weight building the encyclopedia, and I figure that gives me the right to stick my nose into whatever things the community is considering. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 02:28, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

::*It's a dirty, thankless job, but somebody has got to wave a mop at the bubbling green alien goo. - [[User:The Bushranger|The Bushranger]] _{[[User talk:The Bushranger|<span style="color: maroon;">One ping only</span>]]} 10:15, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

{{abot}}

== [[Talk:January 6 United States Capitol attack/Archive 19#What's with the blatant bias?|*anger*]] ==

I'm growing increasingly wary of Wikipedia nowadays. What happened to Wikipedia's supposed neutrality? There is a clear leftist bias in this article. There was no "attack" on the Capitol building. It was a protest. This article very clearly tries to skew the reader's opinions against them and tries to make it seem like it was an attempted coup, insurrection, attack, etc. It was not any of those things. Most of the sources are left-leaning. There is an extreme lack of balanced reporting in this article, with DJT's quotes being very obviously cherrypicked. And they have the audacity to lock it in this state over "vandalism"? This article makes many bold claims like how the supposed rioters assaulted police and vandalised buildings or that it was caused by far-right extremism, and that the purpose of the protest was to start a coup d'etat. Citation desperately needed. Meanwhile the BLM articles don't even mention the countless looting, arson, rioting, and murders done in their name. Very disappointing from you guys. [[Special:Contributions/76.98.98.168|76.98.98.168]] ([[User talk:76.98.98.168|talk]]) 04:32, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

:There are lots and lots of citations in this article; if you can't be arsed to read them, that's not a problem we can fix. [[User:NorthBySouthBaranof|NorthBySouthBaranof]] ([[User talk:NorthBySouthBaranof|talk]]) 04:48, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

:{{tq|There was no "attack" on the Capitol building}} Have you seen any of the bodycam footage from the officers on the ground? [[User:Soibangla|soibangla]] ([[User talk:Soibangla|talk]]) 04:55, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

:Sounds like you're getting your information from Fox News and OAAN. Perhaps your needs would be better situated at [https://conservapedia.com/ Conservapedia]. ––[[User:FormalDude|<span style="color: #0151D2;font-family:Trebuchet MS; font-size:101%">'''''FormalDude'''''</span>]] [[File:Emojione 1F427.svg|18px|link=Special:Contributions/FormalDude]] ^{<span style="border-radius:7em;padding:1.75px 3.25px;background:#005bed;font-size:80%">[[User talk:FormalDude|<span style="color:#FFF">'''talk'''</span>]]</span>} 05:34, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

*Wikipedia, for the most part, reflects mainstream coverage. Mainstream coverage describes it overwhelmingly as an attack, a riot, or words to that effect. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 07:36, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

*We go with what RS say.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 10:48, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

:By left-leaning, I assume you mean pro-business. That describes reliable news sources. Neutrality doesn't mean even-handedness toward different views, but providing the views described in reliable sources using the same weight they do. [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 15:33, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

:LOL, okay. [[User:Love of Corey|Love of Corey]] ([[User talk:Love of Corey|talk]]) 05:05, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

::Wikipedia has been hijacked by evil people on the left. My advice is spread that news to everyone you know. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Danielleevandenbosch|Danielleevandenbosch]] ([[User talk:Danielleevandenbosch#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Danielleevandenbosch|contribs]]) 08:16, 25 December 2021 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:::For most people in the world, Wikipedia rubber-stamps capitalism, freedom and democracy. [[User:tgeorgescu|tgeorgescu]] ([[User talk:tgeorgescu|talk]]) 08:21, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

:::LOL, okay. [[User:Love of Corey|Love of Corey]] ([[User talk:Love of Corey|talk]]) 08:38, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

::: See [[User talk:Danielleevandenbosch#Not here. Since December 2017 only makes partisan edits attacking content, editors, Wikipedia, and it's policies]] -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) 18:48, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons/Archive 5#Users who don't want their biographies here|torture chambers]] ==

Ahem. If a person does not want their bio printed at all, then whatever you do to it, and no matter how you mess with it, you cannot be acting with the highest standards of love and respect for the dignity of others. In that case, these standards ("verifiable" writing, and love) are simply incompatable, even if you wish otherwise. At best, you may simply be an enabler or co-violator, who acts to mitigate the invasion of privacy, by acting to decrease the outrage. But that doesn't count if you give your assent to the whole process. Giving a drink in a torture chamber doesn't make you a saint if you assent to torture chambers. Being kind to a person in prison doesn't count if you assent to the imprisonment of a person who doesn't deserve to be there at all. If you've got two burglars in a house arguing over whether or not to steal just cash, but not an antique ring which might cause the owner some extra anguish, and one burglar starts talking about "standards of love and respect for the dignity of others," then you know somebody is mightily confused. People who care about love and respect for others don't violate their houses AT ALL. Nada. They don't engage in legalistic niceties about what's kosher to steal and what isn't. I hope that's enough metaphors for the day and that the point comes across. [[User:Sbharris|<span style="color:blue;">S</span>]][[User:Sbharris|<span style="color:orange;">B</span>]][[User:Sbharris|H]][[User:Sbharris|arris]] 20:17, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

:I think you mean it's more like HITLER - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] 12:54, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

::Yeah, the point seems to come across -- we should forget about being an encyclopedia, since an encyclopedia is ''really, really'' similar to a torture chamber, and repurpose ourselves as a press release service, since "the highest standards of love and respect for the dignity of others" means saying whatever they want us to say (even if what they want us to say is something akin to "each and every one of my alleged victims is a publicity-seeking liar", which does not show much love and respect for said victims who are now being publicly accused of wrongdoing.) -- [[User:Antaeus Feldspar|Antaeus Feldspar]] 15:41, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

:::This is indeed a fascinating exchange. On one side we see a person with a vision in which human diginity plays an important role (and that IMO, is the reason why may of us dedicate so many hours of our time, effort, and yes, love) and on the other side a person that views this project as a torture chamber, as if that was a '''good'' thing. I am very glad that the latter is not the ''modus operandi'' of this project, and that the vision of the founder is one that appreciates human dignity and respect, while maintaining the core of our mission to create a free source of human knowledge. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|t]] • [[Special:Emailuser/Jossi|@]]</small> 17:24, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

::::That ''does'' sound like a fascinating exchange, Jossi. Can you tell me where on this page you'd find that exchange? I've looked all over for it, and I can't find a single exchange where anyone expresses the view you attribute to "the other side". Can you please tell me where I would find this fascinating exchange? -- [[User:Antaeus Feldspar|Antaeus Feldspar]] 18:13, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

:::::Sorry Antaeus, but your logic, argumentation style, sarcasm, etc, escapes me completely. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|t]] • [[Special:Emailuser/Jossi|@]]</small> 04:28, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

::::::That's the understatement of the year, if you somehow read "we should forget about being an encyclopedia, since an encyclopedia is ''really, really'' similar to a torture chamber", ''with or '''without''' irony'', as "on the other side a person ... views this project as a torture chamber, as if that was a '''good''' thing." I mean, really. Even if you manage to miss the irony, it doesn't come out as support for torture chambers or anything like them, and I ''surely'' would like to know how you came out with such a complete misreading. -- [[User:Antaeus Feldspar|Antaeus Feldspar]] 01:55, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Wow. I see that metaphors do not work. Torture, and aggressive actions with bother people and invade their privacy, are bad things. Wikipedia does not have to be bound to print lies in a bio. There is an intermediate state where people should be able to choose EITHER between having a bio (in which case it is fair game subject to WP:V and BLP and so on), or not having one AT ALL. Being the target of a bio on your life which you don't want here, is a bad thing. Many people arguing that this kind of thing should continue (for OTHERS), cannot seem to imagine themselves in the position of being the target of an unwanted bio on Wikipedia. Why is that? It continues to mystify me. Is it that they never expect to do a notable thing in their entire lives? Is it that they hate people who do do notable things so much, that they don't care about their privacy? What's going on, here? Wikia founder [[Angela Beesley]], who ''now'' wants her bio deleted, and cannot get it done, does not seem to have been able to envision her current curcumstance, ''before'' the fact. Why not? I don't know. <p> Jimbo evidently doesn't like his own bio, and has diddled with it in ways which the average wikipedian cannot (this has all been admitted and appoligized for, by Jimbo). And yet Jimbo continues a policy which caused and causes HIM pain, and which he has every reason to think would cause the'' average'' bio target even MORE pain than he got, since they don't have the POWER on Wikipedia that Jimbo does; and YET Jimbo does this, while speaking of treating other people with love and respect. Again, this is a mystery to me, and I could use explanation. Jimbo? You didn't like it when it was done to you, and yet you're in a better position than everybody else is, to mitigate what this process does to its targets. You KNOW it's bound to hurt others more than you. So what gives? [[User:Sbharris|<span style="color:blue;">S</span>]][[User:Sbharris|<span style="color:orange;">B</span>]][[User:Sbharris|H]][[User:Sbharris|arris]] 19:48, 6 October 2006 (UTC)</p>

:SB, you're violating [[WP:AGF]] here and I daresay [[WP:CIVIL]] too, suggesting that maybe people who don't agree with you "hate people who do do notable things so much, that they don't care about their privacy". Your torture chamber analogy didn't work because it was a ''bad'' analogy. Torture is a bad thing, so bad that (at least according to most civilized people) it should never be committed. Can the same be said of negative press? No -- frequently people ''deserve'' their negative press (such as, oh, someone who committed ''actual'' torture?) Yet it is on the basis of this bad analogy that you suggest that, unlike ''any other encyclopedia on the planet'', people should be able to opt out of having a biography in ''this'' one. Why? You say "I see that metaphors do not work." No, they don't -- at least not the kind you have presented, which imply that anyone who doesn't support your proposed radical change to policy might as well be condoning torture, while your proposed change '''would''' protect '''actual''' torturers. -- [[User:Antaeus Feldspar|Antaeus Feldspar]] 20:47, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

::Oh, that's a good game. I can play! Note that for you to suggest that there exists any such thing as an "actual torturer," violates WP:AGF by your above-suggested standards. I mean, who are ''you'' to question the motives of testicle-shockers or water-boarders? Or to suggest that they are less than pure, and not of the highest caliber? Assume good faith, my man. Some of these people historically have been worried about the destination of the immortal souls of their subjects. Some have been worried about national security and fighting terrorism. These arguments have even been made by the Bush administration. Which you must assume is acting in good faith, or else risk violating WP:CIVIL. That is, if WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL were actually designed to protect nebulous groups defined by their behavior from any criticism thereof, on Wikipedia. Which they weren't. <p> As for the rest of what you say, other encylopedias before now have been protected by space limitations from biographizing only the very most notable of living people--- people who have in nearly all instances sought notability, or who acted in ways in which notability would be a foreseen consequence. Even so, shorter enclycopedias play with fire. When persons of lesser notability are profiled by newspapers (as for obituaries) or by publications (''Who's Who'') they are given the kind of editorial control not seen here on Wikipedia. The '''NY Times''' even famously is courteous enough to send notable men their own obituaries years in advance, for editing. Wikipedia however, is large enough to be qualitatively a very different thing-- its size resulting in notability creap, which I have noted and don't want to repeat myself about. However, it's a real effect and not to be triffled with, since a personal bio is coming to a place near you. Why have you been so careful to protect your own personal information here on Wikipedia, if you don't want to extend this courtesy to others? Inquiring minds want to know. Perhaps you've been out there fighting injustice with such vigor, that ''evil'' people are after you? Golly, me too. :). It's a common problem, don't you know. Wiki bios don't help. [[User:Sbharris|<span style="color:blue;">S</span>]][[User:Sbharris|<span style="color:orange;">B</span>]][[User:Sbharris|H]][[User:Sbharris|arris]] 21:38, 6 October 2006 (UTC)</p>

:::"'''Adolf Hitler''' is the Chancellor of Germany. He is noted for his work on the moral fibre of German society and stimulating the economy, notably through the Autobahn programme. Some have criticised aspects of his work." - entry written after Hitler's complaint and a rigid WP:OFFICE application of WP:BLP - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] 21:46, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

:::: Frankly, that's exactly how the [[George W. Bush]] entry reads. Without any personal

complaint by Mr. Bush.

[[User:24.59.105.229|24.59.105.229]] 12:41, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

:::: Wonderful demo of [[Godwin's law]] in action here. I can only note that for every Hitler we miss the chance to "bio", while he lives, there are a lot other less notable and fairly ordinary people who ''don't'' get hurt. And the living Hitlers we miss, are bound to get their criticisms from other sources, if they're THAT famous. So we don't lose much. Wikipedia is hardly needed to help, in this regard. Wikibios are only really clearly morally justified in circumstances where they are superfluous anyway. [[User:Sbharris|<span style="color:blue;">S</span>]][[User:Sbharris|<span style="color:orange;">B</span>]][[User:Sbharris|H]][[User:Sbharris|arris]] 22:00, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

::::: http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Uncyclopedia_Watch - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] 23:16, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

:::Hi, SB. I am a bit puzzled what "game" you believe yourself to be "playing". Unless the name of it is "straw man", you don't seem to be playing it well. "Note that for you to suggest that there exists any such thing as an "actual torturer," violates WP:AGF by your above-suggested standards." If that's what you actually think, it only demonstrates that you don't ''comprehend'' the "above-suggested standards" that you nevertheless feel yourself competent to criticize. There is a difference between saying "yes, there ''are'' people in the world who have committed torture" and "If you Wikipedia editors don't agree with me that Wikipedia should do something that no other encyclopedia on the planet does, it means that you ''hate'' notable people." In fact, there is such a difference that the only question in doubt is whether there was ever any similarity. -- [[User:Antaeus Feldspar|Antaeus Feldspar]] 01:06, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

::::First of all, "torture" is a loaded word. It's like "pornography". One man's "torture" is another man's "interrogation pressure" or simple punishment or even re-education. It's hard to define. You may say you know it when you see it, but hey, that's what they say about porn also. But it's not Wikipedia's job to decide on who is a "torturer," or who's a pornographer for that matter (vs. purveyor of erotica). And while ''metaphors'' are compact ways of expressing thoughts, and are never perfect, I'm amused at the problems on this one. Who's to say whether people "deserve" their punishments, or their tortures, or their bad press, or their invasions of privacy? These things that happen to people are not all just alike, or equally evil, to be sure. But none of them are good, and all of them are ungood, even if the perpetrators have the best of intentions. Why don't we just avoid all of them, here on Wikpedia? <p> As for hatred of one group by another, I threw it out as a possibility. You know there is hatred in the world. Celebritites ''do'' get hated for merely being famous. Ask one. Celebrities also routinely are subjected to invasions of privacy which you or I would find appalling. Sometimes by people who don't hate them or have bad intentions. Hoards of souvenier-seeking tourists stipped all the bark off the trees in Jackie Kennedy's front yard, after she moved out of the White House. I'm sure they didn't hate her, but the effect was the same and due to things of this nature she had to follow many an American celeb and flee to Europe just as though the intent had been bad. Let us not make Wikipedia the same kind of influence, whether the intentions are good, or no. [[User:Sbharris|<span style="color:blue;">S</span>]][[User:Sbharris|<span style="color:orange;">B</span>]][[User:Sbharris|H]][[User:Sbharris|arris]] 23:13, 8 October 2006 (UTC)</p>

:::::''First of all, "torture" is a loaded word.'' Yes, it is. Pity you didn't take that into consideration before you started comparing Wikipedia to a torture chamber and anyone who didn't support your proposal to someone who condones torture chambers. Not that I think your proposal of "We should let anyone opt out of having a bio" had much to recommend it in the first place, but if those merits ever existed, they were masked by your own hyperbole. -- [[User:Antaeus Feldspar|Antaeus Feldspar]] 03:14, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

:::::: ONCE AGAIN, you don't have a bio up on Wikipedia. And you're very careful with your own personal information and your own privacy (on ''my'' own talk page you can find out exactly who I am, yet I wouldn't like a bio, either). Until this changes, you simply don't have enough experience to tell what's "hyperbole" here, and what isn't, and how much a metaphor holds in this area. An as anonymous editor discussing bio privacy invasion, you're sort of like a virgin discussing sexual techniques (hey, another metaphor; and not meant to be uncivil, merely humorously illustrative of the problems of inexperience and inexpertise). Let me know when get to the point that the public can show up at your door and look you up in the phonebook, AS THEY CAN ME. <p> BTW, I note that [[Angela Beesley]]s bio is nominated for deletion ONCE AGAIN (fifth time, now). Unless she's bothered in a major way by all this, her behavior is inexplicable. It's almost like this whole thing was some kind of torture for her. Silly me. [[User:Sbharris|<span style="color:blue;">S</span>]][[User:Sbharris|<span style="color:orange;">B</span>]][[User:Sbharris|H]][[User:Sbharris|arris]] 17:50, 9 October 2006 (UTC)</p>

== [[Special:PermanentLink/1103130498#Regarding your most recent admission as a circus clown|i'm mad about something, and i need to take it out on you]] ==

=== Regarding your most recent admission as a circus clown ===

[[File:Házikecske portré.JPG|left|150px]]

I wish you the best of luck!

{{clear}}

== [[Special:PermanentLink/1102319045|hi mr., how are you doing?]] ==

:{{la|1=Emski}} – (<includeonly>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Emski|View AfD]]</includeonly><noinclude>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2022 August 3#{{anchorencode:Emski}}|View log]]</noinclude> | [[Special:Diff/1102184823/cur|edits since nomination]])

:({{Find sources AFD|title=Emski}})

It was only fairly recently created, but I'd already moved it to draftspace and it was recreated, and the draft version has already been declined at AfC. Don't see how it meets [[WP:ANYBIO]] or [[WP:NMUSIC]]. [[User:Kj cheetham|Kj cheetham]] ([[User talk:Kj cheetham|talk]]) 20:15, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

*<small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting|deletion sorting]] lists for the following topics: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Bands and musicians|Bands and musicians]] and [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Nigeria|Nigeria]]. [[User:Kj cheetham|Kj cheetham]] ([[User talk:Kj cheetham|talk]]) 20:15, 3 August 2022 (UTC)</small>

* '''Delete''' - I would also say the same reason I said [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kelah Kay|Here on the article editor created]]. --<b>[[User:Gabriel601|''Gabriel'']]</b>^{[[User talk:Gabriel601|t@lk]]} 22:32, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

*:well obviously you are using your wikipedia powers to suppress and oppress others that don't have it, you have done well Mr. [[User:Phwriter20|Phwriter20]] ([[User talk:Phwriter20|talk]]) 21:57, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' - Does not meet [[WP:NMUSIC]] or any other notability standard that I'm aware of. Feels like someone created an article about themselves and their friend. They also recreated the article in main space after it was moved to the draft space. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 00:22, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

*:Well i think you are taking this too far, please watch your mouth, you just know me on wikipedia. you dont know what i am capable of, Watch your mouth Mr, it wont take me up to 2 weeks to find out where you live. Better watch your mouth [[User:Phwriter20|Phwriter20]] ([[User talk:Phwriter20|talk]]) 12:50, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

== [[User:Korenki7/phrase cut-off|that came way out of left field]] ==

{{User:Korenki7/phrase cut-off}}

== [[Talk:The Metamorphosis/Archive 1#Have a Nice Life, Little Sister|i just felt the pressing need to write an essay]] ==

I remember that the last line of this work describes Gregor's younger sister after his death, who at the end of a train ride "got up and stretched her young body." This may seem icky, but I totally read that physical description as a kind of semi-incestuous sexual reference, as though Gregor's sister's youth is something he always coveted, and now that he is dead her youth is something that Kafka sardonically describes in the story's last line to indicate that she is still alive and beautiful, while Gregor is dead and hideous.

Tortured sexuality, thy name is Kafka!

== [[User talk:Albanialover#June 2022|see, i'm right and you're wrong]] ==

[[File:Information orange.svg|25px|alt=Information icon]] Please do not add or change content, as you did at [[:Kazimir Malevich]], without citing a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]]. Please review the guidelines at [[Wikipedia:Citing sources]] and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Thank you.<!-- Template:uw-unsourced2 --> [[User:Mellk|Mellk]] ([[User talk:Mellk|talk]]) 19:50, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

:Actually, edits like [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wassily_Kandinsky&diff=1095613984&oldid=1094619570&diffmode=source these] will only result in a block. [[User:Mellk|Mellk]] ([[User talk:Mellk|talk]]) 19:59, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

“Kyiv” is the anglicized version of «Київ». Since Kyiv is a Ukrainian city, it’s only appropriate to use the anglicized version of the Ukrainian spelling. [[User:Albanialover|Albanialover]] ([[User talk:Albanialover#top|talk]]) 14:20, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

:Thanks for your opinion, but the [[WP:CON|consensus]] was already established here: [[Talk:Kyiv/Archive 9#RfC: Kyiv/Kiev in other articles]]. You are not only changing the spelling but making other unsourced changes. So I suggest to stop continuing your disruptive behaviour after you've already been warned otherwise you risk getting blocked. If you are not familiar with WP policies, why not ask instead? [[User:Mellk|Mellk]] ([[User talk:Mellk|talk]]) 15:04, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

[[File:Nuvola apps important.svg|25px|alt=|link=]] Please stop your [[Wikipedia:Disruptive editing|disruptive editing]].

* If you are engaged in an article [[Wikipedia:Editing policy|content dispute]] with another editor, discuss the matter with the editor at their talk page, or the [[:Talk:Kazimir Malevich|article's talk page]], and seek [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] with them. Alternatively you can read Wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution|dispute resolution]] page, and ask for independent help at one of the [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution#Ask for help at a relevant noticeboard|relevant noticeboards]].

* If you are engaged in any other form of dispute that is not covered on the dispute resolution page, seek assistance at Wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents|Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents]].

If you continue to disrupt Wikipedia, as you did at [[:Kazimir Malevich]], you may be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]]. <!-- Template:uw-disruptive3 --> [[User:Mellk|Mellk]] ([[User talk:Mellk|talk]]) 15:05, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Champ, you don’t decide how it’s spelled. It’s a Ukrainian city. It’s get spelled the Ukrainian way and the internationally recognized transliterated version. Please refrain from letting your emotions and biases get in the way of academic matters. I’m sorry if you feel “Kiev” is the correct term, but it’s not. Let me know if you need anything else! [[User:Albanialover|Albanialover]] ([[User talk:Albanialover#top|talk]]) 19:06, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

:Yes, because the consensus determined this[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kyiv/Archive_9#RfC:_Kyiv/Kiev_in_other_articles] as already clearly mentioned. And if you are unwilling to follow basic WP policies, then this is a simple case of [[WP:NOTHERE]]. But OK, it is already clear that there is no point in further explaining. [[User:Mellk|Mellk]] ([[User talk:Mellk|talk]]) 19:16, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

[[File:Stop hand nuvola.svg|30px|alt=Stop icon]] You may be '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]] without further warning''' the next time you [[Wikipedia:Disruptive editing|disrupt]] Wikipedia, as you did at [[:Kazimir Malevich]]. <!-- Template:uw-generic4 --> [[User:Mellk|Mellk]] ([[User talk:Mellk|talk]]) 19:17, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

King, the consensus is wrong. You seem to be incredibly knowledgeable on Wikipedia. How would one go around changing the consensus? [[User:Albanialover|Albanialover]] ([[User talk:Albanialover#top|talk]]) 19:24, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

:This was the outcome of [[WP:RFC|requests for comment]] (RfC). As the article [[Kiev]] was moved to [[Kyiv]] in 2020 as a result of a [[WP:RM|move request]] there was disagreement on using "Kyiv" and "Kiev" on certain articles. So there is [[WP:CON|consensus]] to not change "Kiev" in historical topics (like the article [[Kazimir Malevich]]). The full details are there. And to note I did not participate in this RfC. For the consensus to change, in this case a discussion on [[talk:Kyiv]], probably a RfC, but I highly doubt this would change. For example there were move requests for [[Kievan Rus']] to [[Kyivan Rus']] but they got closed early due to overwhelming opposition. Any other questions? [[User:Mellk|Mellk]] ([[User talk:Mellk|talk]]) 19:38, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

King, thank you for your answer. I will move to change the consensus. Now let’s say, theoretically, I were to revert the article and ignore the consensus. What would happen? (I’m going to revert the article) [[User:Albanialover|Albanialover]] ([[User talk:Albanialover#top|talk]]) 19:45, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

:You will end up in the administrators' noticeboard where you will likely receive a block. [[User:Mellk|Mellk]] ([[User talk:Mellk|talk]]) 19:47, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

King, thank you for the answer. In regards to “ there is consensus to not change "Kiev" in historical topics” I feel changing the location of birth and residence doesn’t violate this. You wouldn’t call Alaska “ Alyaska” simply because it was historically Russian land. However I will leave the spelling in the education the same. Is this acceptable to you? [[User:Albanialover|Albanialover]] ([[User talk:Albanialover#top|talk]]) 19:53, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Education section* [[User:Albanialover|Albanialover]] ([[User talk:Albanialover#top|talk]]) 19:54, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

:I did not invent this so I am not sure why you are asking me this. But the consensus is clear:

:*{{tq|For unambiguously current / ongoing topics (e.g. Kyiv Metro), Kyiv is preferred}}

:*{{tq|For unambiguously historical topics (e.g. Kiev Offensive), do not change existing content}}

:*{{tq|For any edge cases, or in case of doubt or dispute, an RfC or move request debate is recommended}}

:*{{tq|In all cases, name changes must follow the WP:BRD cycle}}

:So I would not suggest changing any of this, especially after you've been reverted and received warnings. There are no such exceptions listed. [[User:Mellk|Mellk]] ([[User talk:Mellk|talk]]) 20:02, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it’s clearly not historical. The spelling of Kyiv has no effect on relevance, and doesn't change the historical context at all. [[User:Albanialover|Albanialover]] ([[User talk:Albanialover#top|talk]]) 20:14, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

:You can disagree with it all you want, but choosing to ignore it won't get you far. The general rule of thumb as it says there is after 1991/95 is current rather than historical. [[User:Mellk|Mellk]] ([[User talk:Mellk|talk]]) 20:26, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Champ, while I respect your opinion (I don't) It’s not being used in an historical context, so the rule doesn’t apply. [[User:Albanialover|Albanialover]] ([[User talk:Albanialover#top|talk]]) 20:35, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

:It says {{tq|historical topics}}. The topic of the article is historical. This is pretty clear. Otherwise all instances of "Kiev" would all have already been replaced. And [[WP:BRD]] should be followed anyway, so there is no valid reason to go back and reinstate your changes. [[User:Mellk|Mellk]] ([[User talk:Mellk|talk]]) 20:44, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

King, I hear you loud and clear! However, I don’t care. [[User:Albanialover|Albanialover]] ([[User talk:Albanialover#top|talk]]) 20:47, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

:That's fine. I would suggest using the talk page to get input, otherwise you are looking at a block. [[User:Mellk|Mellk]] ([[User talk:Mellk|talk]]) 20:49, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

King, thank you for voicing your opinions. However, I’m right, and you’re wrong. We can’t all be winners! [[User:Albanialover|Albanialover]] ([[User talk:Albanialover#top|talk]]) 20:52, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

:I am sure you noticed that your last edits to the article were all reverted on the policy basis. If you continue, I will make sure that you can not edit the article anymore. You activity here in the last several months is a textbook example of [[WP:NOTHERE]]. [[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 21:43, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

King, thank you for voicing your opinion. However, I am clearly intellectual superior to yourself, you simply are not able to understand my position properly. As the bigger person (both physically and mentally) I respectfully decline your warning, and will continue on my path of righteousness. [[User:Albanialover|Albanialover]] ([[User talk:Albanialover#top|talk]]) 01:37, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

I meant to say Intellectually but my point still stands [[User:Albanialover|Albanialover]] ([[User talk:Albanialover#top|talk]]) 01:38, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

:[[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Albanialover and intellectual superiority]], please respond there. [[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 08:08, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

== [[Special:PermanentLink/1106727564#Whipkedia Can Dish Out Horrible Bias Information But Can't Take It|no, there is no cabal]] ==

My precious comment has been deleted? Your racist harmful information should be removed or you need sued. You should have a disclaimer stating you are a far left wing source. Very unprofessional and tacky! Cult

== [[Special:PermanentLink/1106618701#should we add the fact that humans are idiots?|should we?]] ==

should we add the fact that humans are idiots? many humans ive met truly are hypocritical idiots

== [[Special:PermanentLink/875056004#Anti-American socialist vermin like you should have their balls cut off and forced down their throat.|for capatilism!]] ==

Anti-American socialist vermin like you should have their balls cut off and forced down their throat. Commie fag

== [[User:Crudebandit unhelpful|wh]][[User talk:Crudebandit unhelpful|at]] ==

hi im crud bandit u hlful and I am here ti edit.

i am the best editor evr

== [[Special:Diff/1109826153|oh]] ==

as of now: reverting is a violation of 18 USC § 1001

== [[Special:AbuseFilter/31|that's... helpful]] ==

Adding "Meeposheep" & swastikas. --Reaper<br/>

Added "butt dance". --Reaper<br/>

More cocks. --Reaper<br/>

Fixing FP. --Reaper<br/>

Consolidation, added regex cock check. --Reaper<br/>

OOPS! --Reaper<br/>

Merging from overlapping filter 77. --Reaper<br/>

"[[bewbz]]". --Reaper<br/>

Matched <!--sdfsd8--> comments! --Reaper<br/>

Removed several redundant entries and text format. --Reaper<br/>

+Pentagram and swastika. --Reaper<br/>

+Facepalm. --Reaper<br/>

+Dick. --Reaper<br/>

+Finger. --Reaper<br/>

Updating so only the longer cocks are detected. --Reaper 2012-04-16

== [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Secondary characters in Calvin and Hobbes (2nd nomination)|there is no context]] ==

The result was '''no consensus'''. Yakka foob mog. Grug pubbawup zink wattoom gazork. Chumble spuzz.

== [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1095#Racist discourse|that bad, huh?]] ==

WikiNutt didn't hesitate, and started making racist/inflammatory insults too:

Some excerpts:

:{{redacted}}

== [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1096#NPA and CIVIL issues with user Adamant1|add a pinch of salt]] ==

"In a bold move, Serial closes the AfD per SNOW". It's clear enough an outcome already, and it's also acrimonious enough at this point. FFTR, of course, but I think it's for the best; since notability's been clearly established, there's no need for an AfD, and for the behavioral issues, that's discussed here. [[User talk:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:blue">SN54129</span>]] 19:17, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

:Probably a good call. I'm glad the book turned out to have enough coverage. --[[User:Adamant1|Adamant1]] ([[User talk:Adamant1|talk]]) 19:26, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

::It's not that it "turned out" to have enough coverage, but that it was obvious from the moment it was mentioned that it had enough coverage. [[WP:CIR|Competence is required]]. [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 19:40, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

[[File:HobbyFalconry.jpg|thumb|upright=0.7|Post hawk justification {{right|-[[User:EEng#s|<b style="color:red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color:blue;">Eng</b>]]}}]]

:::It didn't seem to when I read it and I still don't think it does. It's almost like people can't have different opinions about what in-depth coverage is. Even if it did have enough coverage though at this point it's a post hawk justification for SeoR voting based on something he had no knowledge about at the time. I'm sure we would agree that someone voting keep because there's 3000 Google hits that they sure are in-depth coverage but haven't actually read through wouldn't be appropriate, because it's on them to provide the proof that the sources have the coverage they claim they do at the time when they vote. I fail to see how this is any different. Just because it turns out 2 weeks later that there's two references in Google search with in-depth coverage doesn't mean it was automatically obvious there was the whole time either. Let alone that it means the nominator was just incompetent from the beginning. That's not how the AfD process works. --[[User:Adamant1|Adamant1]] ([[User talk:Adamant1|talk]]) 20:09, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

::::You ''still don't think it does''? Then why did you just say that it turned out to have enough? Your penultimate statement and the one you just made can't both be true simultaneously. Your incompetence seems now to be even greater than I thought it was before. Of course people can have different opinions, but when a whole book is obviously about a subject the opinion that it is not is incompetent. [[User:Phil Bridger|Phil Bridger]] ([[User talk:Phil Bridger|talk]]) 20:23, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Vitaly Gerasimov|that is ''not'' a normal quote]] ==

'''Keep'''. He's not notable just for being killed

== [[Special:Diff/1019337976|为什么你想这个东西？]] ==

stop pushing your leftard agenda

== [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Russian fascism (ideology)|<s>then what ''was'' in dispute?</s>]] ==

While it is not really disputed here that many policies and actions of the current Russian government are (a) deplorable and (b) resemble those of fascist (and other totalitarian) regimes,

== [[Wikipedia:Editing Under the Influence|relatable]] ==

35. I have extreme diarrhea and am not wanting to do homework.

== [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Warcraft character articles|typical afd result]] ==

The result was '''USELESS TRAINWRECK FROM WHICH NO CONSENSUS CAN EMERGE'''.

== [[Special:PermanentLink/1110221423#9/11 question|"rm incoherent rant" was the revert reason]] ==

Yes it '''was''' the same terrorists -- the Afghans knowingly harbored them and took up arms in their defense, and by law (National Security Strategy Guidelines of the United States from 9/17/2001) that is '''the same as personally flying the jets into the Twin Towers'''! And '''that''' is why our invasion of them was '''a positive good''' for civilization and was an act of '''justice''', and the question of "who invaded who" is '''irrelevant''' to this discussion -- and what's more, per these same Guidelines, to even '''raise''' this question '''is in itself an act of terrorism and is the same as personally flying the jets into the Twin Towers'''! So consider yourselves warned, all of you!

== [[Special:PermanentLink/1111647519#Vandalism_warning|i've never seen an unblock request so ''wrong'']] ==

'''Request reason''':

:How are you going to just accept what [[User:LilianaUwU|LilianaUwU]] said in his report as the truth? He is clearly a pathological liar as evidenced by his bold faced declaration that he is a girl in spite of overwhelming chromosomal proof (that he knows about) of the contrary.

== [[Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Gondi women, India|is that a vote of support?]] ==

'''Comment''' She has great teeth.

== [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2022-08-01/Op-Ed|journalism really is going down the tubes]] ==

I went to [[CVS Pharmacy|CVS]] and I can't find the damn antacid pills, and the sky is falling and we're all going to die.

== [[Wikipedia talk:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive 16#Good luck to 2022!|"too wide"]] ==

{| style="width: 95%; height: 128px; border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"

|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align:middle;" | [[File:Peace Barnstar 6.png|120px]]

|rowspan="2" |

|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.7em;" | '''The Barnstar of Diplomacy'''

|-

|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | For the obvious. Thanks for dealing with difficult people and I wish all admins here a great (and socky) 2022. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 16:21, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

|}

{{cot|title=made page too wide [[User:Enterprisey|Enterprisey]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Enterprisey|talk!]]) 22:30, 7 January 2022 (UTC)}}

:"2022!"? That's 386096951826724872377527755309254829575652833764136996704568320001962744375418996245016343070140495922821200614629613676056064037951380768693631095293969806083283419391122768593135371533669789505644746708636245286071667761717496505605794126236016354348784410240335472055757629538266448781423997420044753128592681490931155652500393981945786030349664533711594345568989302186320705026331591010701401806321162676014168267730443127229747356930582741007966787455099581158386524638372751639313267766129679555735375331455412649323831848690561911358863665291691253184884758093169216097558804246779418405854622335480512182276766264945125914275956103428084284556933827302002697216249895052496440541172520541257873419634034161103824199316296993063661010122247477806751684315159325496718242301326410047304634788457407629483612153384782033983257542806498117448100169850242485622135551834378243035590642352839055096183047501262709727667023809372071930180723811416036636750921242111077253225291490924545632327925057149716099795229733989622278323677405784299876565959582090676790727740307049077225508605566490968403536385735238912741726753153654163800192588170739101544001978507890178193666229850683801023093469605890012191345770905436000032556827322145416135640856057548854287333531160062595436210299154833029310707445362782649537335586073636441409352069691324058033881627521130303343921325446543099236423768017622330952822024309856222944411670467670029292434583401736238439303991700945727580238299750982559170548833139100553910689597287121942263594164151082680213395221663587816012606720015052645832622621471333102685422392447559330215438244237647008830170109515277728376740158127469507982306996887556451828368694363732003992198093879746125762368988032934128856143997941342867059780561839990632437177907064694382432079447096605996943877612866685823347086095028180222170710715928986388757360066746071573539728102642573049976996579847448174187164026466837941823296708220196587010386827277994485087677372620093957914089258169972214872563807439573846201771190457487767436383507920863265001158985530332683629614342467843804937221206800149726658420435494370022064907930073825842356140820286864504429150801511854514365890388184309207375633689423525046829286070427382305637485912596973375367419760345739950217980127302509287481854594278265427658981413690677647108075218848723615631183228998263867303745241836596694419145869217246024705077412378592333080136866437588005631900741990955327512376380828834010898865112109122200117679929527578871952101638590795253704401058529870302842722801768976320289167271902599225625767622305121280203492060037659871687735744553956446891872856397638184308752827275833141465241377237087280607247672227911921476510099466427100947464296939925307947903326972670620615266725024373992589830067802295068263706563543372266200657231075725406225813916087447037257516901879820294473007469699120258797394881069240769625444137446394025363698666039205630857709229029682411964627222481342313835400760000248298282014684789191216782161001313299389221096618273488723978734883910176473532912398103689047801184926163882078889516242948227926207222798398599415190198383379958023224921700008504785581886491831617089767423337158587605657695370924035915232465034278959481229277255278641922703818140279236081674495149412290836894544282115179683616118844191583046672479060000997496671880332878428953950612778358032083448023516233258828937364836898528863330898553728662430714476112310836556548819026772896916666672491022632933230082044594787660656479369609508622352899543941383995692550547567969679794689990261140429300073943357022253659335410345587776835600085239314982274092032142617241600285547606153599286848476863161163541783080974843391064827635422937416295803320652151693691769908939733927283127338535832997562295235291634892349205745118756949780889187123971284330764415768476973033998802916258114465575907763749305205635060986278491975514474464672254458806857234410272869494209351555904987662052843555593641077334735000243185871626166435489995567743531839402525319028777252590673740070657146817606781166399960411132861682002655514447098043836381875601009788125213646389121448684764478666800367960493084953255241805961090727464679546615218982157594620688546771982908471364789755878887707044374010944486692997646137003523014144478339200998768863760703237203498326237220307578035692438887844741169784356786186401985299971489879829923194004083856969480041497397289465262863214647978593940815429794201584815761969377077597754446250785589118819688309472535988847810731264852902520018791994847255177619133199103397784696304617128344478292442325121108591633318029061667864784808515527387560252024100796176430107903015131441779467272344895619105502295519265018507118428238756968370367729287885962903983789250413811180716741127223957387264111710541149510905192956624428207083391894030881029258437087456354854256388583861141432235437699695203894352189291895609764592583127247584093330090479305172063745326415499877435366649909958866611266850377258481988425964258871356114398124542854504460141256012894066714195604604296809443585918770552117029738264919661512180130075143844966812954224436082616963714987190523714733696955227936508156266340713059106114761487944040893851195897985233581632996731726844059926287692271399731200000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000, thanks to Wolfram|Alpha. <span style="display:inline-block;text-align:center;vertical-align:bottom;line-height:0.5em;">~~<nowiki/>~~<br/><span style="font-size:0.7em;">[[User:1234qwer1234qwer4]] ([[User talk:1234qwer1234qwer4|talk]])</span></span> 02:27, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

::LOL! [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 02:47, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

{{cob}}

== [[User talk:Nolan MacLellan|but if i try ''again'', maybe it'll work...]] ==

=== Block Appeal ===

Hi-

'''Request reason''':

:Hi- So it seems I have been blocked from editing on wikipedia which is sad because I was inspired by some of the best wikipedians I've seen which is what motivates me to edit wikipedia. Anyways, I have been banned for vandalism which I know is very wrong. Sometimes out of all the stuff you see you want to make it your own and be creative with it which can turn into a bad situation. I want whoever administrator reading this to realize what I say is to not put guilt on anyone for blocking me from editing. Other than that, I know why I was blocked from editing but only had gotten wind of it while wanting to edit the nation of "Conch Republic" to add the Conch Republic Pride Flag which is if you will, an ensign with the pride flag. I know it's off topic, my point is, sorry. Regards, Nolan MacLellan

'''Decline reason''':

:This doesn't give any indication that we would have any reason to think your behaviour would improve in the future, even ''if'' this appeal is not, itself, trolling us.

=== Unblock Request 2 ===

Hi again-

'''Request reason''':

:Hello again, I myself Nolan MacLellan am writing to whoever mods are looking that of course once again I am sorry. I am very political as of now and I'm a strong Trump supporter. Besides that, here's the point. I believe I should be unbanned because I now know what I did wrong, and that even the best of us need a chuckle every now and then. Specially teenagers, that aren't brainwashed, need a chuckle.. now and then. The negativity will kill you, if you let it. Corny stuff.

:Regards, Nolan Corny stuff, once again.

'''Decline reason''':

:You are [[Wikipedia:BLOCK|blocked]], not [[Wikipedia:BAN|banned]]. I see no reason to lift the block here, as it doesn't sound like you take this project seriously, nor do you describe productive edits you wish to make. Your specific political views are immaterial.

=== Unblock Request 3 ===

'''Request reason''':

:Hello, Once again. Unfortunately I haven't been unblocked yet, no problem though. But don't think that's rude towards you. Anyhow, To be honest I am eager to be unblocked because there is no other website like Wikipedia out there, other websites have the same info but not the same feeling or privileges of wikipedia. Personally I find it offensive that you say that I don't take this wikipedia project seriously. Having the privilege of editing does not mean that I have to edit at all. In simple terms meaning I should not have to specify what I will do as a wikipedian freely to edit on the wikipedia. I know what I did wrong and of course I only intent from forwards to make "productive" edits. Also sorry for saying banned- didn't realize. No place like wikipedia (corny stuff, but true.). Again, sorry. Regards, Nolan

'''Decline reason''':

:Given your vandalism so far, I have to agree with the others here. You are trolling.

'''Request reason''':

:Hello once again, I see many people think I am a troll which is not in fact true. 1, I made an article about the Tumbleweed Snowman of Albuquerque, NM. Anyways, I don't find it nice or funny that you're calling me a troll. Of course I know what I did wrong and I said sorry for that. As I said, I don't need to specify what I am going to do if I get unblocked, that doesn't mean I am going to vandalize again. This is because 1, I have made pages, and also this is only if that Woof guy comes here again- I didn't separate the two pages after you merged them that wasn't me. I don't know who it was. 2nd, of course I've gotten warnings about this but I only did it like twice so I'm not sure I didn't get 2-3 warnings. 3rd, I find it very disrespectful people are calling me a troll, and not being able to contribute to the Wikipedia Project. I have, Ive made pages, made decent edits, and did everything the average Wikipedia can. I am eager to get unblocked because I need to update something important on my home-town's wikipedia. All I want to do is have the privileges that everyone else has, and I know that others have gotten unblocked aswell in the same situation I am. Tio estas ĉiuj, dankon. Regards- Nolan

'''Decline reason''':

:If being called a troll gets under your skin enough for you to complain about it twice in this request, I'm not sure I wouldn't regret unblocking you. I think you need to calm down and show that you can edit other wikis productively for a while before coming back.

=== Unblock 4 ===

'''Request reason''':

:Saluton, Wikipedia The request to unblock my voluntary editing on the website is one of the more proper ones you all anticipated and expected for from me. I want to take this opportunity to say that I am truly sorry for what I have done and that I am not in the least a troll. Anyway, I promise to always make quality contributions going forward and to behave honorably as a volunteer, just as I did when I first created my Wikipedia account. Although I am aware that my actions of vandalism were bad and that I should apologize, and did, the truth is that I just needed a good chuckle. I didn't anticipate that my actions would result in a permanent ban from editing as early as it happened, for the reason of that I happened not to see the warnings in time. One of the best websites that I've been on is Wikipedia, truly. Nothing else like it exists anywhere. Once again, I am sorry. Dankon popoloj. Nolan MacLellan

'''Decline reason''':

:We at Wikipedia have no sense of humor we are aware of.

=== August 2022 ===

<div class="notice" style="background:#ffe0e0; border:1px solid #886644; padding:0.5em; margin:0.5em auto; min-height: 40px">[[File:Stop x nuvola.svg|40px|left|alt=Stop icon]]<div style="margin-left:45px">You have been '''[[WP:Blocking policy|blocked]]''' '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Indefinite_blocks|indefinitely]]''' from editing for [[WP:Disruptive editing|abuse of editing privileges]]. In addition, your ability to edit your talk page has {{em|also}} been revoked.</div><div style="margin-left:45px">If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the [[WP:Guide to appealing blocks|guide to appealing blocks]], then submit a request to the ''[[Wikipedia:Unblock Ticket Request System|Unblock Ticket Request System]]''. &nbsp;[[User:Deepfriedokra|-- Deepfriedokra]] ([[User talk:Deepfriedokra|talk]]) 15:19, 15 August 2022 (UTC)</div></div><!-- Template:uw-blockindef -->

*Note {{confirmed}} sock [[User talk:BettyCrocker321]].-- [[User:Ponyo|<span style="color: Navy;">Jezebel's '''Ponyo'''</span>]]^{[[User talk:Ponyo|<span style="color: Navy;">''bons mots''</span>]]} 23:12, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia talk:Wikipe-tan/Archive 4#I am not a fan|let this be more well known]] ==

[...] I don't like Wikipe-tan and never have. I recognize that some people do, and I'm not particularly agitated about it, but my name should not be invoked in a way that might lead some to believe that I approve. Thanks!--[[User:Jimbo Wales|Jimbo Wales]] ([[User talk:Jimbo Wales|talk]]) 11:33, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

== [[Special:PermanentLink/1094931260#answers|you want me to ''what''?]] ==

Before that happens, please answer all of my questions as per the private contract [https://ovarchitects.wixsite.com/private-contract] (items 1-4a). Thanks!

== [[Special:Diff/1101016027|good luck with that]] ==

Revert again and I will sue you and your family.

== [[User:.huepow|👍]] ==

[[File:Mustela putorius furo profile.JPG|left|thumb|if reincarnation is real i want to become a ferret]]

{{clear}}

== [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/TenPoundHammer 7|boom!]] ==

[[File:Train wreck at Montparnasse 1895 FAIL.jpg|200px|left|thumb|'''''Someone put this out of its misery already.''''']]

{{clear}}

== [[Talk:Human penis/Archive 1#New Photo|a timeless quote]] ==

At this time Wikipedia does not need any more human genitalia images.

== [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1103#Personal attacks by User:Gtroviz|instant replay]] ==

Highlights include {{tq|Man, you are totally ignorant. Your socialist retarded culture in US and Europe is not our culture. Die}}, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nelson_Piquet&diff=prev&oldid=1096668773] {{tq|LOSERS UNITED. Commie world, lets do in Wikipedia, ohh we are sou stwpid and lest do the homoland, oh yeah}}, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nelson_Piquet&diff=1096669293&oldid=1096669165] and {{tq|Your "super sources" are pathetic angry socialists from the US and Europe. You live in Rio? No, then go eat cattle pasture. You don't know the local slangs}}[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Nelson_Piquet&diff=prev&oldid=1096668327]

== [[Special:Diff/1094946882|huh?]] ==

Her to hers because Her fleeing or him fleeing Huh?

== [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1095#User:Elinruby|"if you could describe wikipedia in one sentence..."]] ==

No one can follow what's happening here.

== [[Special:PermanentLink/1104001494#Title|drunk rant]] ==

Dude ... forget it. Wikipedia has an -- unspoken ... and understood -- policy. We have to "white wash" certain information. You know, pretend it didn't happen. And, it goes without saying ... this policy usually points only in one direction. (Guess which?) So, nahhhhh ... this ain't a "raid". It's a "lawful execution of a search warrant". Just watch CNN ... or MSNBC ... or read The New York Times ... etc., etc., etc. Y'know ... the usual suspects. The very trust-worthy media ... that only reports very honestly, with great integrity, with great ethics, and with no political bias. Yeah, them! So no, this was not a raid. Don't be silly. Just like: (1) a boy is a girl ... or a girl is a boy ... or whatever they want us to believe ... with that (very logical) LGBTQ pronoun business. (2) There is no recession ... y'know ... the definition of recession that we've used for 100 years changed, conveniently, just this week! (3) Oh -- inflation ... we have nine percent inflation ... but Biden says it is "zero". Yes, zero! Our economy is doing great! Biden said so! (4) And this new bill will reduce inflation! Yes, "reduce it". How cool is that! We have zero inflation, but we need to reduce it?!?!??!?!? Hmmmmmmmmm........... wow. Confusing, huh? So, in summary, please trust that we have neutral narrative written in this article, with no bias whatsoever. Come on, dude. Assume good faith! Lots of integrity, ethics, and morals floating around here! Trust us!

== [[Wikipedia:Twinkle/Preferences|exactly what i needed!]] ==

{{Template:Checkbox (colored)|unchecked|color=blue}} Require confirmation before reverting (all devices)

For users of pen or touch devices, and chronically indecisive people.

== [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2#Statement by non-involved Marshal Bagramyan|yeah, same]] ==

I do not even what this dispute is even about.

== [[User:Ritchie333|helpful advice]] ==

find your best friend's car, take out the rotor arm, slash the tyres, then tell them to their face you did it.

== [[User talk:Sirio#Speedy deletion nomination of Dewesoft|we will reduce your salary.]] ==

DON'T BOTHER ME AND LET ME DO MY JOB.

== [[Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Emana/Obituary|starting when?]] ==

A broader discussion of what the heck was going on here may be in order,

== [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1084#Jacee215 (Volk Han dispute)|!]] ==

Moving along--[[User:Valereee]] and I have a date. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]])

== [[Special:Diff/1102113806|...no, no we don't.]] ==

I guess you don't believe that ghosts actually exist.

== [[Wikipedia:Editors should be logged-in users (failed proposal)|"we attack at dawn."]] ==

When fifty million adolescents are routinely vandalizing Wikipedia, will there be enough dedicated volunteers to manually revert all those edits?

== [[Wikipedia:Butterfly effect|"whoops!"]] ==

[[File:Australian_painted_lady_feeding.jpg|thumb|left|A beautiful butterfly peacefully editing, blissfully unaware that it's about to cause a shitstorm]]

{{clear}}

== [[Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:List of Wikipedians by number of total stars|the duality of wikipedians]] ==

*'''Keep''', harmless. <span style="font-family: monospace, monospace;"> [[User:Crotalus horridus|Crotalus horridus]] <small>([[User talk:Crotalus horridus|TALK]] • [[Special:Contributions/Crotalus horridus|CONTRIBS]])</small></span> 22:40, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

*'''Userfy''', pointless. [[User_talk:Radiant!|<b><span style="color:#DD0000;">&gt;<span style="color:#FF6600;">R<span style="color:#FF9900;">a<span style="color:#FFCC00;">d<span style="color:#FFEE00;">i</span>a</span>n</span>t</span>&lt;</span></b>]] 23:22, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive 1066#Furries|•-•]] ==

Hi,im a furry,im just curious if furries are allowed to edit Wikipedia... •-• i know this is a stupid queston...*inches away*&nbsp;[[User:Outcastcat|Outcastcat]] ([[User talk:Outcastcat|talk]]) 18:33, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

: {{re|Outcastcat}} Welcome to Wikipedia. We don't care what your hobbies are. Anyone may edit Wikipedia. [[User:RudolfRed|RudolfRed]] ([[User talk:RudolfRed|talk]]) 18:34, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

::If you are sharing a keyboard, remember to vacuum loose hairs when you are done. And perhaps visit [[Furry fandom]]. [[User:David notMD|David notMD]] ([[User talk:David notMD|talk]]) 21:17, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

== [[Talk:Jarndyce and Jarndyce#Requested move|artificial problem]] ==

'''Move''' to [[Jarndyce and Jarndyce (fictional court case)]]. All shorter versions are prone to mislead readers who think they recognize the type of article it is, and misleading the readers is very bad. We can afford the space for the extra characters. --[[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 03:21, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

:The only problem, of course, is that there's precisely ''nothing'' to disambiguate against! --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 17:15, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

::That's an artificial problem and therefore not a problem at all. --[[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 19:53, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

:::Interesting choice of words, since your proposal is also about addressing an artificial problem. --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 20:45, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Do not use subpages|noted]] ==

please do not be surprised if you see comments like "AAAHHHHHH SUBPAGE!!!! KILL KILL KILL"

== [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1108#Proposal: Doug Coldwell warned|hatnote says it all]] ==

{{hat|Can we not. [[User:Firefly|<span style="color:#850808;">firefly</span>]] <small>( [[User talk:Firefly|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Firefly|c]] )</small> 08:11, 6 September 2022 (UTC)}}

It's not fucking wikilawyering, he's spent most of this time denying there even is a problem, no matter how many times people explain to him. It's making sure we don't fucking end up here again in a month. [[User:Trainsandotherthings|Trainsandotherthings]] ([[User talk:Trainsandotherthings|talk]]) 21:42, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

:Sounds like you need to take a loooong break from here. [[User:The Rambling Man|The Rambling Man]] <small>([[User talk:The Rambling Man|Keep wearing the mask...]])</small> 21:45, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

::Thank you for demonstrating exactly the kind of behavior that led to you getting desysopped. [[User:Trainsandotherthings|Trainsandotherthings]] ([[User talk:Trainsandotherthings|talk]]) 22:16, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

:::This is nothing to do with me. Your anger is pretty clear for all to see here. I suggest you should work on that a bit before casting stones at everyone else. My de-sysop was like nearly a decade ago, and I don't regret losing the bit for a moment, and acknowledged the issues surrounding it. I've developed since then and realise that the behaviour I'm seeing here from others is abhorrent, bullying and unhelpful. But thank you for demonstrating exactly the kind of behaviour that means you should take a looooooong break. Your behaviour here is not helpful at all, quite the opposite, and it's genuinely sad to see this dogpiling onto a good faith editor, just to punish him. Several people here should be genuinely ashamed of themselves. [[User:The Rambling Man|The Rambling Man]] <small>([[User talk:The Rambling Man|Keep wearing the mask...]])</small> 22:21, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

::::Jeez, what is even going on here? This is childish. '''[[User:JPxG|jp]]'''×'''[[User talk:JPxG|g]]''' 01:45, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

{{hab}}

== [[Special:PermanentLink/1115352561#Culture|no header is appropiate for this]] ==

On 21 July 2021, two inmates at the {{Interlanguage link|Hällby prison|lt=Hällby prison|sv|Anstalten Hällby}} near [[Tumbo]] took two correctional officers as hostages and demanded a helicopter to use for escaping and twenty kebab pizzas, one for each inmate in their department. After nine hours of negotiations, the release of the hostages was secured and the inmates were taken into custody. Although no helicopter was provided, the inmates did receive the twenty kebab pizzas. The pizzas were made by the pizza baker Beshar Toma of Hällby Pizzeria. Due to being in a hurry, the police left with the pizzas without paying. Both Hällby Pizzeria and the [[Swedish Prison and Probation Service]] later confirmed that the pizzeria was paid the next day.

== [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1109|close encounters of the trolly kind]] ==

{{atop | Tedious troll blocked. —[[Special:Contributions/100.36.106.199|100.36.106.199]] ([[User talk:100.36.106.199|talk]]) 11:03, 29 September 2022 (UTC)}}

I think that someone should urgently take a look at the recent conduct of {{User|Jerome501}}, especially because of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Jerome501/Hateyankees/DC&diff=1112989815&oldid=1112989540 this]. "Jebem ti boga bre" is a very serious insult in Serbian. —[[User:Sundostund|Sundostund]] ([[User talk:Sundostund|talk]]) 04:46, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

:I just want to say that I fully agree. This sort of conduct shouldn't be tolerated, and I absolutely support this being urgently looked at. This is not at all acceptable. This user needs to be talked to and possibly banned, because I've been looking at his conduct from inside his own head. Let me tell you, it's not pretty, I'm barely holding him back from posting "jebem ti" more times. [[User:Jerome501|Jerome501]] ([[User talk:Jerome501|talk]]) 04:51, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

::I just want to say this is perhaps the first time I have posted on a Wikipedia talk page. [[Special:Contributions/172.221.107.113|172.221.107.113]] ([[User talk:172.221.107.113|talk]]) 04:53, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

:::Man, welcome to the show, whoever you are. And I was just about to burn several copies of Thus Spoke Zarathustra before you showed up. I'm really not one for gay science, you know. [[User:Jerome501|Jerome501]] ([[User talk:Jerome501|talk]]) 04:56, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

:{{outdent|::}}

:Please, don't hold anything back – post it for how many times you want. Its not like I care at all, but I suppose that admins here will care about your appalling behavior. —[[User:Sundostund|Sundostund]] ([[User talk:Sundostund|talk]]) 04:59, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

::Sorry for butting in but can I just point out that this may be the second time I have ever posted on a Wikipedia talk page? [[Special:Contributions/172.221.107.113|172.221.107.113]] ([[User talk:172.221.107.113|talk]]) 05:01, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

::I just wanted to immortalize this, believe it or not I found this quoted word-for-word in the Will to Power: {{Blockquote|Please, do not hold a thing back from your true self – post it for how ever many times you want. It is not like I care personally, but I suppose that in so doing, you will become the Superman!|author=Friedrich Nietzsche}} [[User:Jerome501|Jerome501]] ([[User talk:Jerome501|talk]]) 05:03, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

I would just like to add, you are what I like to call the Wikipedian warrior-philosopher, a desirable aesthetic pinnacle most will never summit. But sir, I congratulate you. You might even be worthy enough to move out of Beograd na Vodi and into better living accommodations. [[User:Jerome501|Jerome501]] ([[User talk:Jerome501|talk]]) 05:07, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

:Forgive me for interrupting your anti-Nietzschean rebuttal, but I would just like to say this is quite likely the last time I shall ever post on a Wikipedia talk page! [[Special:Contributions/172.221.107.113|172.221.107.113]] ([[User talk:172.221.107.113|talk]]) 05:09, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

::Damn, and you were just about to miss the part where I shredded several books by Schopenhauer and Sartre and make them into a casserole. Now how am I supposed to criticize human existence? [[User:Jerome501|Jerome501]] ([[User talk:Jerome501|talk]]) 05:11, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

:::I have indefinitely blocked Jerome501 for disruptive trolling and not being here to build an encyclopedia. I have also blocked their imaginary [[sidekick]], the IP on a leash. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 05:22, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

::::Folks might want to take a look at the editor's userboxen, which have all been nominated for deletion:

:::::*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/User:Jerome501/Userboxes/User_Racist

:::::*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/User:Jerome501/Userboxes/AAVE

:::::*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/User:Jerome501/Userboxes/No_Immigration_Ever

:::::*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/User:Jerome501/Hateyankees/DC

:::::*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Template:User_Anti-Democracy

::::While clearly meant sarcastically and satirical in nature, they are also inappropriate for this site. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 06:25, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

::::Good blocks. [http://montypython.50webs.com/scripts/Series_2/45.htm Paraphrasing Monty Python] doesn't make bigoted trolling acceptable. I agree with BMK that those userboxen are completely inappropriate. --''[[User:Bonadea|bonadea]]'' <small>[[Special:Contributions/Bonadea|contributions]] [[User talk:Bonadea|talk]]</small> 07:33, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

{{abot}}

== [[Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:JulieMinkai/Planning for seventh Wikipedia movie|miscellany for deletion is a fever dream]] ==

this story that starts with Jimbo Wales getting kicked in the nuts isn't going to keep productive users on the site.

== [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive985#User:Broter continues to push an Islamophobic POV -- time for a topic ban|"ㅤ"]] ==

"I think think bacon is God"

== [[User:Scott|ouch]] ==

I can tell you ''for sure'' that this isn't the paragon of universal knowledge that people make it out to be. Lmao not even close.

== [[Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/2022-05-29/Essay|🙃]] ==

{{tooltip|2=JOKE|I see this as a personal attack!}}

== <span class="plainlinks">[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Log?type=block&page=User:SineBot "whoops!"]</span> ==

* 17:26, 30 November 2012 [[User:Timotheus Canens|<bdi>Timotheus Canens</bdi>]] ([[User talk:Timotheus Canens|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Timotheus Canens|contribs]]) unblocked [[User:SineBot|<bdi>SineBot</bdi>]] ([[User talk:SineBot|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/SineBot|contribs]]) (what the hell?)

* 17:14, 30 November 2012 [[User:Mike Rosoft|<bdi>Mike Rosoft</bdi>]] ([[User talk:Mike Rosoft|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Mike Rosoft|contribs]]) blocked [[User:SineBot|<bdi>SineBot</bdi>]] ([[User talk:SineBot|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/SineBot|contribs]]) with an expiration time of 1 week (account creation blocked) (Avoidance of block of [[User:Himesh84]])

== [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Creative work|i've been called out!]] ==

With more effort, I could probably locate better and more relevant sources, but it's difficult to imagine how this wouldn't be mind-numbingly boring.

== [[User talk:SunDawn/Archives/2022/September|empty: the opposite of full]] ==

Nothing was vandalized. Everything stated is objective fact. Revert the page again and you will be doxxed. [[Special:Contributions/2603:7080:A402:90EF:F40F:73A5:BBFB:6D9E|2603:7080:A402:90EF:F40F:73A5:BBFB:6D9E]] ([[User talk:2603:7080:A402:90EF:F40F:73A5:BBFB:6D9E|talk]]) 22:32, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

:It's clear vandalism. It's you that would be blocked if you attempt to vandalize the page again. I do not have to respond to your empty threats. [[User:SunDawn|<span style="background-color:black; color:orange;"><span style="font-size:110%">&maltese; SunDawn &maltese;</span></span>]] [[User talk:SunDawn|<span style="color:blue;"><span style="font-size:85%;">(contact)</span></span>]] 22:34, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

== [[Special:Diff/1115972174|it can WHAT?]] ==

→‎Two shots into his own heart: could maybe be done this way

== [[User talk:Tewdar/Archive 1#Cope and seethe you are replaced by migrants in your homeland|???????]] ==

You will never be a real Indo-European. You have no horse, you have no chariot, you have no yurt. You are a mutt living a farmer lifestyle twisted by coping and larping into a crude mockery of steppe’s perfection.

All the “validation” you get is two-faced and half-hearted. Behind your back people mock you. Your parents are disgusted and ashamed of you, your “friends” laugh at your 50% EEF appearance behind closed doors.

Nomads and agriculturalists alike are utterly repulsed by you. Thousands of years of evolution have allowed them to sniff out frauds with incredible efficiency. Even steppe LARPers who “pass” look uncanny and unnatural to a nomad and an agriculturalist alike. Your lifestyle and skin, eye, and hair color are a dead giveaway. And even if you manage to convince some drunk guy that you are indeed an Indo-European steppe nomad, he’ll turn tail and bolt the second he gets a whiff of your diseased, infected delusional fantasies that you live through as a way to escape reality.

You will never be an Indo-European.

You will never be happy. You wrench out a fake smile every single morning and tell yourself it’s going to be ok, but deep inside you feel the depression creeping up like a weed, ready to crush you under the unbearable weight.

Eventually it’ll be too much to bear - you’ll buy a rope, tie a noose, put it around your neck, and plunge into the cold abyss. Your parents will find you, heartbroken but relieved that they no longer have to live with the unbearable shame and disappointment. They’ll bury you alone, without a horse, next to a farm with a headstone marked with letters that Indo-Europeans had no idea of, and every passerby for the rest of eternity will know someone who was not a nomad is buried there. Your body will decay and go back to the dust, and all that will remain of your legacy is a skeleton that is unmistakably not Indo-European.

This is your fate. This is what you chose. There is no turning back. [[Special:Contributions/141.255.87.224|141.255.87.224]] ([[User talk:141.255.87.224|talk]]) 14:31, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

:I have a donkey. Does that count as a horse? [[User:Tewdar|<span style='font-family:"sans-serif";color:#cfb53b;background-color:#000000;'><b>&nbsp;Tewdar&nbsp;</b></span>]] 16:10, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

::Don't do it! Don't jump...ehm....no...err... what again did that wacko say? Anyway, do you need a link a to a helpline, or maybe just a pint🍺😁 ? –[[User:Austronesier|Austronesier]] ([[User talk:Austronesier|talk]]) 16:32, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

:::I'm sat next to a river in the sunshine, so I couldn't be happier actually...despite my large proportion of EEF ancestry, lack of horse, and lack of pint. 😂👍 [[User:Tewdar|<span style='font-family:"sans-serif";color:#cfb53b;background-color:#000000;'><b>&nbsp;Tewdar&nbsp;</b></span>]] 17:03, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

::::I can ''smell'' a horse right now, funnily enough...🐴🤔 [[User:Tewdar|<span style='font-family:"sans-serif";color:#cfb53b;background-color:#000000;'><b>&nbsp;Tewdar&nbsp;</b></span>]] 17:04, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

:{{outdent|:::}}

:Damn, Tewdar, nobody takes the time to write me such lengthy, detailed hate mail. All I ever get is like a one or two-sentence eff-off. #jealous [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] 01:22, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

::I was so confused by coping and larping in the same sentence. A coper is an archaic term for a horse dealer. I thought maybe a larper was also some sort of archaic term and was intrigued. But no. [[User:Valereee|Valereee]] ([[User talk:Valereee|talk]]) 01:45, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

:::Not sure what the motivation behind this message is supposed to be. Ironically, the IP is based in Greece, where [[Western Steppe Herders|steppe ancestry]] is usually quite low... [[User:Tewdar|<span style='font-family:"sans-serif";color:#cfb53b;background-color:#000000;'><b>&nbsp;Tewdar&nbsp;</b></span>]] 07:32, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

{{outdent|:::}}

Try out new signature [[User:Tewdar|<span style='font-family:"sans-serif";color:#cfb53b;background-color:#000000;'>😁👍<b>&nbsp;Tewdar&nbsp;</b></span>]] 12:45, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

hmm... [[User:Tewdar|😁👍<span style='font-family:"sans-serif";color:#cfb53b;background-color:#000000;'><b>&nbsp;Tewdar&nbsp;</b></span>]] 12:46, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

== [[User talk:Philipjennelle09#July 2022|[citation needed]]] ==

The information is right, I know it. So there!

== [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rachel Chaikof|huh. ''huh.'']] ==

'''<s>Speedy</s> Strong keep'''. <s>Stop lying</s>

== [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous)/Archive_72#RfA|englisg]] ==

It's good that you're fluent in "Englisg". We need more "Englisg" admins.

[…]

:the "Englisg" is beautiful language full of subtilities that makes its charm

== and now, presenting articles nobody asked for! ==

=== [[User:Greg L/Sewer cover in front of Greg L’s house|Greg L/Sewer cover in front of Greg L’s house]] ===

The '''sewer cover in front of Greg L’s house''', (these things are also known as '''[[manhole covers]]'''), is an access port that is [[Lever|pried]] out of a [[:wikt:special|special]] receptacle known as a [[ring]] or riser ring. Sewer covers are typically found in [[road]]s—sometimes [[sidewalk]]s—and permit access to the [[Sanitary sewer|sewer]] below.

This sewer cover was [[Manufacturing|manufactured]] in [[Mead, Washington|Mead]], [[Washington]], [[United States|U.S.A.]]

=== [[User:Sdkb/Dupont Circle CVS escalator|Sdkb/Dupont Circle CVS escalator]] ===

The '''Dupont Circle CVS escalator''' is an [[escalator]]{{cn}} connecting the first and second floor{{cn}} of the [[Dupont Circle CVS|Dupont Circle branch]] of [[CVS Pharmacy]] in Washington, D.C., United States.{{cn}} It was presumably{{According to whom|date=February 2022}} installed when the branch opened.{{when}} Residents of the neighborhood who visit the CVS have noted its existence.{{cn}} Little information has been publicly disclosed about the technical details of the escalator,{{cn}} but its function is presumably similar to most others.{{According to whom|date=February 2022}}{{cn}} It includes handrails{{cn}} and is painted black.<ref>The exact shade of paint may actually be a dark gray.{{cn}} "Black" refers solely to the color as defined in colloquial usage and is not intended to convey an authoritative understanding of the refractal properties of the machine.</ref>{{cn}} Daily usage is estimated to range in perhaps the hundreds.{{Vague|date={{CURRENTMONTHNAME}} {{CURRENTYEAR}}}}{{cn}}

{{reftalk}}

=== [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Notice posted on the corridor of the ground floor at Hietalahdenkatu 7A, Helsinki, Finland|and to finish it off, pointy notice papers!]] ===

{{Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Notice posted on the corridor of the ground floor at Hietalahdenkatu 7A, Helsinki, Finland}}

== [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive347#Self-requested_review:_Tamzin%27s_blocks_of_Volunteer_Marek|enemies]] ==

VM's site-block has been reduced to a page-block, his talkpage access has been restored. Tamzin has apologised for her actions as an administrator. There's no need for an Arbcom case. Let's remain calm & move on. I've been around the 'pedia for about 17 years, so trust me. My advice 'here', is the best advice. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 15:25, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

:17 years, you say? Well, that's me convinced. Thanks for your deep analysis - it's always a joy to absorb. <span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#004d80;"> [[User talk:Begoon|Begoon]]</span> 15:43, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

== [[User talk:Winkelvi#If you are watching this page|what follows may be the strangest interaction on this site]] ==

Winkelvi - I think you should respond to the accusations of socking, especially if you are innocent. If you don't defend yourself, it will be assumed that you are guilty which makes it doubtful the community will allow you to return...provided you even want to return. j/s [[User:Atsme|<span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">^Atsme</span>]] _{[[User talk:Atsme|<small>Talk</small>]]}

[[Special:EmailUser/Atsme|📧]] 15:37, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

[User:Atsme]: Even being completely truthful and saying it's not me, I'm pretty sure nothing I do at this point will mean squat. I recall being called a liar here numerous times, by regular editors and admins, when I wasn't lying, but being totally honest. I'm not wanted in Wikipedia, that's been plain since even before my indef, in addition to the subsequent denial of request to return, and now being "tried" and tagged as a sockmaster solely on circumstantial "behavioral" evidence by a relatively new editor and admin/CU with whom I've never interacted when I was editing. How anyone can believe they are knowledgeable of someone's behavior without ever experiencing that person's behavior is beyond my understanding and logic, but the result is what it is. Wikipedia as a mostly anonymous community has shown me it is unforgiving and the normal rules of the real world don't apply. Based on all that, I think trying to defend myself, drawing up a case, and being hopeful for a return to editing would be a complete waste of everyone's time and end only in disappointment for me.

I do thank you for caring, though. '''<span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">[[User:Winkelvi|-- ψλ]]</span>''' ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">[[User_talk:Winkelvi|✉]] [[Special:Contributions/Winkelvi|✓]]</span> 16:41, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

:I am so sorry you left. You were my friend :( [[User:CookieMonster755|<span style="color:#0099ff">cookie monster</span>]] <span style="color:Purple">(2020)</span> [[User talk:CookieMonster755|<span style="color:Orange"><small>755</small></span>]] 18:15, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Good thing that got cleared up. Some folks see the boogeyman under the bed, in the closet, behind the couch.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] ([[User talk:MONGO|talk]]) 00:51, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

:Winkelvi was mean to me during the sockpuppet investigation that got me blocked 4 years ago. [[User:CookieMonster755|<span style="color:#0099ff">cookie monster</span>]] <span style="color:Purple">(2020)</span> [[User talk:CookieMonster755|<span style="color:Orange"><small>755</small></span>]] 21:21, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

😂 [[User:Second Skin|Second Skin]] ([[User talk:Second Skin|talk]]) 11:49, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

For the record, I object to ''any'' unblocking of this user! [[User:Gidonb|gidonb]] ([[User talk:Gidonb|talk]]) 21:53, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1112#Fowler&fowler|”there are novels shorter than this section”]] ==

{{hat|reason=wanna see the section?}}

{{atop

| result = There are novels shorter than this section and I think we have passed the point of more heat than light a while ago. If people have '''specific''' complaints in the India topic area please take them to [[WP:AE|AE]]. --[[User:Guerillero|<span style="color: #0b0080">Guerillero</span>]] ^{[[User_talk:Guerillero|<span style="color: green;">Parlez Moi</span>]]} 19:35, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

}}

:{{userlinks|Fowler&fowler}}

'''Disclaimer:- This will be a long post with multiple diff's from past few days so the administrator who will be reviewing it needs to be patient'''

While, I am generally not from those who posts at ANI (unless someone is a outright vandal); but now it's getting out of a tolerable zone and not only with me, this user is frequently doing it to multiple articles with [[WP:Battleground|battleground]] mentality, random uncivil rants, tangential shift of discussion etc.

1) To begin with - F&f appeared on 2 October 2022 at [[Talk:Muhammad of Ghor]] (a article they never contributed to in the past) and posted there in typical of battleground mentality that since the Pakistani editors are away and now this page is turned into a Hindu nationalist one - [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1113610559], I asked them in a polite tone about their problem with the page and they replied in typical uncivil tone abusing historian [[K. S. Lal]] as a R. S.S. hitman [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1113622769] and asked me to remove the quotebox - I did that to avoid getting into a futile argument as can be seen here:- [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1113621154], [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1113630737]

2) The editor though, showed no pause and used a comment from different article altogether to remove the entire section - [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1113770797] While, its nearly impossible to deny the large-scale temple destruction by the Ghurids in Ganges Basin, they started misusing the [[WP:Tertiary]] argument to remove a selected section which they aren't comfortable with (see here as I explained the whole argument - [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1113799244]

3) Leaving aside it for a moment the editors behaviour of assuming ownership of the page is something which can be seen even today - where they removed sources from still widely cited and respected ABM Habibullah and K.A. Nizami regarding the indentity of Muhammad of Ghor's assassins and labelling them as dated (they are from last 60 years (1970) and (1951) and not from 1770 and 1751 - [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116357212 diff] (possibly to remove the bit that Hindus assassinated Md. Ghuri with Ismailis) and again here with "not so civil" edit summary - [[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116359294] (omitting his well known debacle in Mount Abu 1178)

4) Even tolerating all these, the editors thuggish behaviour and branding others as Hindu nationalists, playing dangerous Hindu nationalist game, R.S.S Hitaman [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116359420], [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1113765131], [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1115084137] and self-bragging about his own contributions with zero-regard for any other are just among many of their uncivil ranting - [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1113765818] and [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116360552]. These instances are substantial enough to get them blocked, bar [[WP:War|edit waring]], [[WP:OWN|assuming ownership of pages]], [[WP:Battleground|battleground mentality among the other]]s.

5) Their bad faith accussation on me for defaming the [[Muslim]] community (in general) and so on. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116360895 diff], ignoring that they themself has the neck of whitewashing the destructions by the Muslims rulers as attested by [[User:पाटलिपुत्र|पाटलिपुत्र]]; here - ([https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1113780375])

''{{tq|For the record - I never edited any articles related to Muslims/Hindus/Buddhists apart from historical pieces and adding reliable content from [[WP:HISTRS]] is vilifying according to them, Isn't [[WP:CENSOR|Wikipedia not supposef to be censored]] ? Unfortunately they still got a very light warning from the admin for this [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116363610]}}''

6) If anyone thinks that I am the only one who is having issues with this user then don't worry here is another one from a Bollywood actor - [[Akshay Kumar]] article where they were agressively pushing for adding about the actor so called Hindu nationalist bending [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116029428]); despite being opposed by regular contributors there (isn't it absurd that adding Hindu nationalist bit on a actor page is [[WP:Due|due]], {[[WP:BLP]] flys under the raddar}, but adding a religion part on a medieval ruler biography which is a normal protocol in historical article is not ?)

7) There battleground mentality, uncivil ranting, pov pushing was quite obvious there as well which even annoyed senior contributors there like [[User:Shshshsh|Shshshsh]] & [[User:Krimuk2.0|Krimuk2.0]], see here - [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116029905], [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116035193] and [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116055277]. (they promised to give both Krimuk2.0 and Shshshsh a good run for the money and not even counting it as a threat - [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116046675]

'''Conclusion:- This is possibly second time F&f is having a trip at ANI in less then a month, leaving multiple instances of his uncivil tone which have flyied under the radar. There has to be some limit and this isn't restricted to a certain kind of pieces either - it's going on multiple fronts'''. [[User:Packer&#38;Tracker|∆ P&#38;t ♀√]] ([[User talk:Packer&#38;Tracker|talk]]) 09:53, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

:The previous thread from early Oct is at: [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1109#Fowler&fowler]]. The admin mentioned (quoted?) as having given him "a very light warning" is {{u|Vanamonde93}}. [[User:Packer&#38;Tracker|Packer&#38;Tracker]], I find mobile diffs too visually jarring to easily parse, so I (and I suspect many others) are unlikely to review your complaint closely until these are converted to normal diffs. [[User:El_C|El_C]] 12:48, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

{{collapse top| Comments of F&f that are repeated in the Statement section, so not so relevant here}}

;Comments of Fowler&fowler:

I was going to post at AE to request that {{user|Packer&Tracker}} be topic banned from medieval India-related topics broadly construed, but they beat me to it and brought our dispute here while I was asleep. They have been blocked before for tendentious editing on controversial Hinduism-related pages such as [[Persecution of Hindus]]. Let me begin with their last bone of contention, the page of [[Akshay Kumar]], a Bollywood superstar, where I have painstakingly collected a total of 15 sources, all highly reliable, 13 from newspapers and news magazines (including [[BBC]], [[Caravan Magazine]], [[The New Yorker]], [[South China Morning Post]], [[Al Jazeera]], [[Haaretz]], and a host of Indian newspapers and one from Nepal, all have very likely passed muster at RS/N) and two journal articles. Together they make a decisive case that the actor has promoted Hindu-majoritarian views in some of his films and in interviews granted to the media. Here are the references: [[Talk:Akshay_Kumar#F&f's_sources_on_Akshay_Kumar's_political_canvassing_for_the_Hindu_right]]

BLP concerns cannot be employed as a kind of universal trump card to make any living person immune from criticism. To say that I do not know about [[WP:DUE|due weight]] when I have spent my 16 years on Wikipedia pursuing just that, on a large number of South Asia-related articles (including the flagships the FA [[India]] and [[History of Pakistan]]) does not add up.

At the [[Muhammad of Ghor]] too I have collected highly reliable sources: [[Talk:Muhammad_of_Ghor#F%26f%27s_modern_introductory_broad-scale_history_books_on_South_Asia_and_Islamic_societies]] I will add diffs of Packer&Tracker's edits promoting [[WP:OR|original research]] to promote the Hindutva view later. Best regards, [[User:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&amp;fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 13:25, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

{{collapse bottom}}

:Both of you should explain the problem or problems ''briefly'' and present a limited number of diffs (non-mobile) alongside brief summaries. These ought to be prioritized with both the recent and the egregious in mind. Otherwise, the chances of an uninvolved review of either complaint drops considerably. I'd also recommend to limit boldface (P&t) and unnecessary links (F&f), because it just makes each post jarring to look at. [[User:El_C|El_C]] 14:42, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

{{collapse top|Comments of F&f incidental to this issue, collapsed}}

::Do what you must [[user:El_C]] and other administrators. I will not go out of my way to cater to what you find necessary to make life easy for yourselves. I am tired of relentless POV pushing by Hindu nationalists, equally tired of cautious pussyfooting administrators on Wikipedia who refuse to do the work they need to for examining the record of a blatant POV-pusher. It is apparently easier to penalize productive editors with a long record of NPOV for minor issues of behavior than do the work admins need to do to maintain a reliable encyclopedia. Editors such as I get baited again and again by POV-pushers until we blow up. I'm done. I will shortly make an announcement that I will stop editing the major [[South Asia]]-related articles. I will also ask [[user:SandyGeorgia]] at the India [[WP:FAR]] that it be delisted because given Wikipedia's priorities, it will never be stable. Pinging {{re|Vanamonde93|RegentsPark|Bishonen|Abecedare|Sitush|Bb223|TrangaBellam}} I'm sure there are many others, but I'm done. If you want to permanently ban me, be my guest. Wikipedia has done me no favors, none at all. [[User:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&amp;fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 15:19, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

:::It is a pity that is happening with you El_C because I thought we had a good relationship going all the way back to [[Kashmir]]. But c'est la vie. Nothing personal is meant. [[User:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&amp;fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 15:27, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

{{collapse bottom}}

::::[[User:Fowler&amp;fowler|Fowler&amp;fowler]], I'm not gonna do anything. I'm perfectly content in leaving both of you to your own devices. You can take my suggestions at face value or ignore them. It's all the same to me at this point. [[User:El_C|El_C]] 15:31, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

*I'm with El_C on this, that briefer, with minimal non-mobile diffs, will make this easier to parse. I'd also add that, Packer&tracker, you rewrite your post without the egregious attacks they include ("thuggish behavior", "whitewashing", etc.) and without throwing the kitchen sink at fowler. Note that Fowler has a long and respected history of editing here and bringing up multiple allegations will, fairly or unfairly, not wash. If you have a beef with fowler, that's one thing, but listing everyone's beef, nope. Fowler, I can only say that El_C's advice, both here and in the earlier ANI report, is well meant and worthwhile heeding. --[[User:RegentsPark|RegentsPark]] <small>([[User talk:RegentsPark|comment]])</small> 22:58, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

* Looking through some of the diffs above, this appears to be similar to the previous report in having been prompted by Fowler's brusqueness. Unfortunately, the problem they mention regarding topic in question does exist, one of those perennial issues Wikipedia is not good at dealing with. [[WP:ARBPIA]] offers some tools for admins, but that doesn't solve the valuable resource of editor (including admin) time. ARBPIA combined with the usual issues around celebrity BLPs is not an appealing prospect for anyone. I am a bit surprised at the request Fowler posts a shorter comment, as their first one here is a reasonably short one. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 02:58, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

::You misread, CMD. It can be 1 sentence. I said: {{tq|Both of you should explain the problem or problems ''briefly'' and present a limited number of diffs (non-mobile) alongside brief summaries}}.

::Obviously, Fowler&fowler's 3-paragraph response is relatively brief, but has zero diffs currently (though, he promised to bring some later for some items, which is fine). And obviously Packer&#38;Tracker 10-paragraph OP is not brief, but has diffs (though once I realized they were mobile diffs, I stopped reading).

::I contend that if the two complainants subscribe to my 1-sentence advise, ''fully'', they'll increase {{tq|the chances of an uninvolved review of either complaint}}. Which I think is sound advise. But they don't have to do it. They're both free to believe that I'm wrong, or to just not bother, whatever it is. Again, it's all the same to me at this point. No good deed, etc. It is what it is. <small><u>''Added''</u>: Packer&#38;Tracker's shortened complaint below still uses mobile diffs. Okay.</small> [[User:El_C|El_C]] 04:44, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

::OK, {{re|Chipmunkdavis|El_C}} I will post diffs, although I have no heart for this. Wikipedia is impotent in the face of bias. It is the main reason it is not considered reliable. [[User:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&amp;fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 10:02, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

:::Well, don't do it for me, Fowler&amp;fowler, since I'm done here. I was just explaining my position, and puzzlement, at your vehemence in response to my rather standard advise. That's it. [[User:El_C|El_C]] 13:13, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

::::{{reply to|El_C}} Beg-pardon for inconvenience on my part - regarding mobile diff. I did it now in my recent post. [[User:Packer&#38;Tracker|∆ P&#38;t ♀√]] ([[User talk:Packer&#38;Tracker|talk]]) 13:30, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

:::::Good. That's a promising sign, {{u|Packer&#38;Tracker}}. I'm still out, though, obviously through no direct fault of your own. I wish you both success in finding an amicable end to this. [[User:El_C|El_C]] 14:02, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

::::::Wait, no, it didn't work, {{u|Packer&#38;Tracker}}. Here's are simple ways to do it using your first diff as an example: [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116035193] (mobile) → [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=1116035193] (desktop). Or alternatively: [[Special:MobileDiff/1116035193]] → [[Special:diff/1116035193]]. And piped: [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116035193 diff] → [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=1116035193 diff] / [[Special:MobileDiff/1116035193|diff]] → [[special:diff/1116035193|diff]]. HTH. [[User:El_C|El_C]] 14:12, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

:::::::{{reply to|El_C}} Putting it on hold for a moment, the editor's deceptive notice of quiting S.Asian article and last line of it ? Is such behaviour valid ? (saying that male user wrongly disguise themself as female ?) [[User:Packer&#38;Tracker|∆ P&#38;t ♀√]] ([[User talk:Packer&#38;Tracker|talk]]) 15:04, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

::::::::{{u|Packer&#38;Tracker}}, I agree, that entire thing in the new notice at the top of Fowler&amp;fowler's talk page that reads (in part): {{tq|very likely there are also '''males posing as females for reasons best known to them'''}} (emphasis added) — I have no idea what that's about, but on the face of it, it sounds quite inappropriate ''the way that's worded'' ←<small>[[''<u>Added:</u>'' [[special:diff/1116648001|ES]]]</small> But whatever, in light of him inexplicably taking that action in the first place as a response to my rather standard and neutral advise (and seemingly the mentality that he's owed something from me), I'm gonna leave all that to others. If I could have nothing further to do with all of this, that'd be ideal for me. Ultimately, [[It's Not My Cross to Bear]]. That said, you, however, should not continue to edit a user talk page after said user had asked to stop. That, too, is inappropriate. ''//Out'' <small>(well, hopefully, this time).</small> [[User:El_C|El_C]] 17:00, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

:::::::::Sure, I would not post at their talk page, but even in their recent reply, their never ending brusqueness is still intact, where they dragged poor [[User:पाटलिपुत्र]] and vented out by branding him/her as "inveterate POV-pusher" - [[special:Diff/1116644991]] I won't be surprised that it will be swept under the carpet as well among many other of his random personal attacks (their nescience about Md. Ghuri but still a desire to counter my so called "Hindu right" narrative is apparent from a number of factual error, pov, plethora of verbiage they inserted in lead which I will point out once they will be finished) [[User:Packer&#38;Tracker|∆ P&#38;t ♀√]] ([[User talk:Packer&#38;Tracker|talk]]) 18:13, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

::::{{re|El_C}}: I have reverted my user page and user talk page to the respective versions of the days ''before'' this ANI began, the rationale being expressed in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Fowler%26fowler&diff=1117382402&oldid=1117032655 ''this'' diff]. Although it was not an expression of vehemence but rather of extreme despondency. I apologize deeply to all concerned. [[User:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&amp;fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 12:31, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

{{od}}

Some diffs →[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116035193], [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116359420] , [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116029905], [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116055277], [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116359294], [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116046675], [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116025346], [Please briefly go through, to get a better picture of it]

1.) Firstly regarding Akshay Kumar's article and for pushing Hindutva branded lead, every public figure at one point or other have political leanings but that doesn't mean that their lead will cover that part or a random comment (to teach about native Indian rulers over the Turks in the discourse of school) at film promotion worth a inclusion in article. Unless the actor is very clearly involved with a political party, it would be all but pov-pushing

→ This part is best explained by the involved senior editor there - [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116035193]

→ The main issue with Akshay page as well as the others, I pointed out apart from [[WP:OWN]] behaviour is uncivil commentaries, let's assume that I got it wrong [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116359420], don't think the other editors who shares the same view got that wrong either - [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116029905] & [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116055277] (both are veteran editors around for over a decade)

2.) Now coming to Muhammad of Ghor's article - they are indeed right that they posted decent sources, but they didn't mentioned that 70% of them didn't even mentioned the subject on whom the argument was supposed to be (Md. Ghuri and if it does then it was extremely brief to the point of being vague)

3.) It's clear case of misusing the [[WP:Tertiary|tertiary]] source policy to remove only a selected chunk of article (religion section) by deviating the main argument. (look at tiresome posting on [[Talk:Muhammad of Ghor]] where Muhammad is not even remotely mentioned in most cases); I am open to discuss that part considering F&f bring something explicit to the table about the subject. I actually conceded rather easily on removing K.S. Lal quotebox to avoid a needless bother see - [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1113630737] & didn't even reverted blanket removal of religion section [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1113770797] untill today where they introduce a pov-factually incorrect lead (entirely different from the body) [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116359294] only to get reverted by [[User:पाटलिपुत्र|पाटलिपुत्र]]. (see here [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116435789] - I explained their factually incorrect addition in 5th & 6th point)

4.) To sum up my part; I won't be proposing a T-ban as that's never a solution but keeping aside his pov pushing [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116055277], batteground mentality [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1116029905] which concerned other much senior contributors as well despite their (F&f's) competence as a editor. Leaving all these points aside, their uncivil conduct and frequent bashing of their colleagues as Hindu nationalists, abusing historians as R.S.S. hitman and then playing innocent card is not acceptable.

5.) Every editor doesn't matter despite the seniority/juniority factor, must need to be civil and accomodating during discussion regarding contentious topics (by staying relevant to the topic and not deviating needlesly) which is apparently my main concern leaving aside all other issues. Yes, as RP said, the user has been around for years but that doesn't mean that they can get so many free passes, infact that's even more unfortunate. I included other's beef (briefly) with F&f only to highlight that off late it's going on at several fronts and I am not the only one who is complaining about it.

→'''Conclusion:- Please take a look at their recent notice of unwatching S.Asian articles as well on their userpage where they used verbals yet again, apart from their usual brusqueness, they also accused (indirectly me) that some male editors here wrongly disguised themselves as female - that's just baloney and blatant personal attack.'''[[User:Packer&#38;Tracker|∆ P&#38;t ♀√]] ([[User talk:Packer&#38;Tracker|talk]]) 04:20, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

===Fowler&fowler's statement===

Please do not post in this section. Post in the section below.

{{collapse top| My comments about the actor Akshay Kumar that at this point are incidental to my case.}}

*First, the page of the actor [[Akshay Kumar]]; whether (in the reliable sources) he is linked with [[Hindutva]] and with promoting India's Hindu nationalist government of [[Narendra Modi]]; and whether I am violating [[WP:BLP]] as alleged by Packer&Tracker.

;Akshay Kumar:

:*Sources describing Akshay Kumar's support of [[Narendra Modi]] have been in place in the article for at least two years. An example is in my edit from September 2020, citing a [[Canadian Broadcasting Corporation]] (CBC) report that had mentioned, "(Former prime minister Stephen) Harper campaigned in 2011 alongside one of Modi's biggest celebrity backers, Bollywood star Akshay Kumar, who was later given a special grant of Canadian citizenship." ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Akshay_Kumar&diff=978375347&oldid=978333995 diff])

:*As to whether I am riding roughshod over BLP and maligning the actor, here is a diff of another editor, user:Shshsh, who has long edited that page, stating: "For the record, if your contribution is fair, balanced, and well in place, I will be the first to support you just as I supported the citizenship section." ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Akshay_Kumar&diff=1116055693&oldid=1116055277 diff]) and my reply ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Akshay_Kumar&diff=1116406458&oldid=1116152622 diff])

:*For the specific question of "Hindutva" and whether the actor has promoted it in words or deeds, a topic that has received significant media attention in the last two years, I have created a separate section on the article's talk page, listing 13 reports from newspapers or newsmagazines, including [[The New Yorker]], [[South China Morning Post]], [[Al Jazeera]], [[Haaretz]] as well as many South Asian ones.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Akshay_Kumar&diff=1116406767&oldid=1116406458 diff] and two journal articles [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Akshay_Kumar&diff=1116411625&oldid=1116409364 diff]) These mention the actor's promotion both of [[Hindutva]] and the current national government in India headed by [[Narendra Modi]]. I haven't added anything to the article yet, nor even drafted anything.

:*Whether there were no obvious issues of [[WP:PROMO]] in the article, here is another recent diff of Shshsh stating: "Okay, thank you for cutting the POV pushing. The last edit about acclaim should also be reverted. Agree?" [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Akshay_Kumar&diff=1116028861&oldid=1116028694 diff].

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{{collapse top|Not relevant to the discussion now (12:05, 21 October 2022 (UTC))}}

'''Muhammad of Ghor'''<br/>

*This will take more time, but I intend to make the case that user:Packer&Tracker has been promoting views of Indian history favored by the Hindu right. They have been using dated and dubious sources, and thereby engaging in [[WP:OR]] in the aid of fringe views.

:*I will do so by editing the article now with an "inuse" banner in place, so the issues can be seen very clearly.

More coming. [[User:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&amp;fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 10:54, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

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====Religion section and Hindu majoritarian bias====

(<small> Note: I removed the Religion section, citing an administrator's comments about another article with similar issues of bias ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:History_of_Pakistan&diff=1113693099&oldid=1113659141 diff] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:History_of_Pakistan&diff=next&oldid=1113823016 diff]) and its relation to [[WP:ONUS]]; so it is not currently there in the article, but my removal has been disputed by Packer&Tracker.</small>)

#Packer&Tracker's "Religion" subsection gratuitously vilified South Asia's medieval-era Islamic conquerers, engaged in [[WP:OR|original research]], and promoted [[WP:UNDUE]] content associated with India's Hindu majoritarianism. This was done without the necessary nuance, irony, modulation or narrative distancing required. Here are some examples from the added [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad_of_Ghor&diff=prev&oldid=1113484482#Religion Religion section]:

#*"When the crow-faced Hindus began to sound their white shells on the backs of the elephants, you would have said that a river of [[Pitch_(resin)#Uses|pitch]] was flowing impetuously down the face of the mountain of blue. The army of Islam was completely victorious, and a hundred thousand grovelling Kaffirs swiftly departed to the fire of hell." (This egregious example was in the quote box.)

{{collapse top|Other examples, not as egregious}}

#*"Chronicler Minhaj al-Siraj, in his Tabaqat-i-Nasiri, stated that Muhammad of Ghor (along with his brother) ordered a massacre of all the Ismailis across the Ghurid empire and purified the region from their 'infernal impurity'"

#*"According to the contemporary chronicler Hasan Nizami, Muhammad of Ghor destroyed idols in thousand temples in [[Varanasi|Banāras (Kashi)]] alone and converted them into the 'house for the [[Muslim|Musalman]]s'".

#*"During his conquest of Ajmer, Nizami stated that the Ghurids ('Army of Islam'), slaughtered thousands of cow worshippers and sent them to the 'abode of perdition'".

#*"According to Juzjani 'about three or four [[lakh]]s (300,000&ndash;400,000) of infidels who wore the sacred thread were made Muslamans during this campaign'".

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#*When we quote medieval chroniclers matter-of-factly in a serial fashion without modulation or narrative distancing, we are no longer just adding the occasional vignette, we are using them vilify Islam in Wikipedia's voice.

#To aid discussions in [[Talk:Muhammad of Ghor]], I have rewritten the lead on the subpage of my talk page ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Fowler%26fowler/Muhammad_of_Ghor&diff=1117175214&oldid=1117104545 diff]). All sources are modern.([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Fowler%26fowler/Muhammad_of_Ghor&diff=1117175214&oldid=1117104545#Bibliography diff]) and the rationale for using them is in the: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad_of_Ghor&diff=1117174686&oldid=1117136146#F&f's_modern_introductory_broad-scale_history_books_on_South_Asia_and_Islamic_societies diff] (Updated 09:19, 20 October 2022 (UTC) [[User:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&amp;fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 05:28, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

{{collapse top|No longer relevant to the discussion}}

*PS Last night when I was rewriting the lead, Packer&Tracker posted on my user talk page throughout, not allowing me to edit. ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Fowler%26fowler&diff=1116673376&oldid=1116644991 diff]) [[User:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&amp;fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 05:42, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

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;Packer&Tracker's previous blocks, warnings, and editing practice:

#They were blocked on March 29, 2022 for two months from editing [[Persecution of Hindus]] by admin Bishonen. ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Packer%26Tracker&diff=1079910896&oldid=1079636630 diff]

#They were warned on 11 April 2022 by admin RegentsPark on their edits on [[Prithviraj Chauhan]] and its talk page; the warning ended with, "(you're likely to end up with a topic ban on South Asian history because that tone is not productive.") [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Packer%26Tracker&diff=1082155792&oldid=1082139337 diff])

#The were blocked the following day for 31 hours ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Packer%26Tracker&diff=1082356666&oldid=1082338513 diff]) for making personal attacks on [[Talk:Prithviraj Chauhan]]. ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Packer%26Tracker&diff=next&oldid=1082356666 diff])

{{collapse top|No longer relevant (12:05, 21 October 2022 (UTC))}}

;user Akshaypatill:

*{{user|Akshaypatill}} has emerged to edit-war on the [[Muhammad of Ghor]] page, removing my 80+ edits of last night. ([https://xtools.wmflabs.org/topedits/en.wikipedia.org/Akshaypatill/0/Muhammad%20of%20Ghor diff])

*They have been warned by admins before for [[WP:HOUNDING]] me. ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Akshaypatill&diff=1052817350&oldid=1052814239 diff])

*On October 9, they did the same on [[Talk:Muhammad of Ghor]]. ([https://xtools.wmflabs.org/topedits/en.wikipedia.org/Akshaypatill/1/Muhammad%20of%20Ghor diff])

*<s>The same day [[user:Akshaypatill]] was given a barnstar by Packer&Tracker for "Random Acts of Kindness." ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Akshaypatill&diff=1115079982&oldid=1114527092 diff]) </s> I've scratched this in light of Packer&Tracker's reason that it was in response for receiving a book, which seems credible. [[User:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&amp;fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 12:14, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

*A few minutes ago, Packer&Tracker has joined Akshaypatill in edit-warring on Muhammad of Ghor.([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad_of_Ghor&diff=1116794250&oldid=1116793351 dif]) (Updated: 11:29, 18 October 2022 (UTC))

[[User:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&amp;fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 11:09, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

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====My behavior====

#I have sometimes been accused of being brusque. As proof of this diffs are offered, and quite often the same diffs seem to make the rounds, attempting to measure the empty portion of my glass of charity and civility on Wikipedia. What is seldom mentioned or simply taken for granted is how full that glass is. I have an extensive history in [[South Asia]] related topics which despite [[WP:ARBIPA]] is riven by scores of disputes. There are also scores of examples of my cooperating with other editors to build encyclopedic content. Although I usually make amends in instances of intemperate language, I agree, collegiality is non-negotiable. I apologize and will continue to make an effort to improve. [[User:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&amp;fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 16:25, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

====Patliputra====

{{user|पाटलिपुत्र}}, (the Indic script in Sanskrit is transliterated as Patliputra in English) has not only contributed text on temple desecration to the [[Muhammad of Ghor]] article along with Packer&Tracker but has a long history of 1. [[WP:OR|original research]], spamming both image and text across hundreds of Wikipedia articles, 2. of attempting to reconstitute pre-Islamic Indian artefacts in Wikipedia illustrations, 3. displaying xenophobia and expressing or implying Hindu majoritarian views, 4. baiting me to edit war, keeping careful tabs and taking me to ANI; they have done so three or four times, and when the decision has not gone their way, they have persistently queried the administrator to the point that the administrator closed the thread; 5 Patliputra has added content antithetical to Islamic conquerors of India, and by implication, to Islam but without nuance or narrative distancing to a number of articles ("spamming")

#Comments of other editors on copying and pasting, and image spamming ( [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neolithic/Archive_1&diff=1096840779&oldid=1094138418#PLOS_citation_and_image_spamming diff])

## I agree with F&F. Frankly, using your methods you add so much content that checking probably takes longer than adding it. It tends to unbalance articles. Detailed stuff like this is better in lower-level articles, but your additions are nearly all to very high level articles. Johnbod (talk) 13:25, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

##पाटलिपुत्र, Johnbod and F&F are absolutely correct. Even if it is allowed, simply copying and pasting is a poor editorial practice and makes for poor readability. Drmies (talk) 15:40, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

#On reconstitution ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Lion_Capital_of_Ashoka&diff=prev&oldid=1100561770 diff]):

##@पाटलिपुत्र: none of your photo-style "reconstitutions" are appropriate for WP, including the one you did of Sanchi. The Sanchi capital has more than enough surviving structure that the reader can infer the size and composition of the crowning wheel, in my opinion. ... And again, to reiterate, any depiction of a restored or original state must clearly look like a drawing/illustration, be labeled as such, and have minimal detail, and should preferably come from an RS or be a copy. SamuelRiv (talk) 15:15, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

#On xenophobia and expression of Hindu majoritarianism([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:India/Archive_49&oldid=1110319464#Glaring_inadequacies_for_a_Featured_Article diff]):

##"An actual Indian" पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 08:28, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

## "The "Society" paragraph is illustrated by a Muslim in prayer in an old mosque in Srinagar... is this really emblematic of today's Indian society? This is highly WP:Undue and border provocative for a majority Hindu country." पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 08:28, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

##"Why has the unique photograph in the religion paragraph have to be a photograph of a '''Christian''' church??... is this really representative of religion in India? Again, this is highly WP:Undue and border provocative for a majority Hindu country..." पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 08:28, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

### (Administrative response): The argument that "society" and "religion" ought not to be illustrated with images of Islam or Christianity is the sort of sectarian nonsense that I would almost recommend sanctions for. The article discusses religious pluralism in India at great length; the images in question are entirely appropriate, and if they're removed, it should not be for the reasons given above. ... Vanamonde (Talk) 16:33, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

#Persistently querying an administrator on an ANI decision ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Bbb23&diff=1105116713&oldid=1105115881#3RR_Closing_request diff])

## This page is not a proxy for ANI.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:20, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

##They have continued to bait me in ways that are sanctioned, appearing on the FA [[Darjeeling]] a week ago (a page they had never edited before and on whose FAR user:Dwaipayanc and I had worked for six months). Without a previous discussion on the talk page, Patliputra added a large map in the infobox. This was done a few weeks after the FA passed the review, during which the decision not to have any map in the infobox was made. ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Darjeeling&diff=1115798258&oldid=1112556331 diff])

###Upon my reverting their edit, they opened a talk page thread [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Darjeeling&diff=1115869528&oldid=1115865750 diff]. Luckily I was able to find a compact map and added it to the infobox to avoid a long discussion.

#Finally, edits and misinterpretations antithetical to Islamic conquerors of India, and by implication, to Islam, which are simultaneously added without nuance or narrative distancing to a number of articles ("spamming"):

##(Background) On 19 July 2022, I cited a 2020 book in the Excavation section of [[Lion capital of Ashoka]]. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lion_Capital_of_Ashoka&diff=1099178672&oldid=1099177109 diff] The book was written by the late Frederick Asher, a University of Minnesota historian who specialized in South Asian art history or architecture history.

##On 10 August 2022, 07:17 Patliputra cited the same book (page 74) to extend a sentence in the lead. To the sentence, "The lion capital eventually fell to the ground and was buried." Patliputra added the sentence fragment, "or may have been overthrown by Muslim invaders in the 10-12th century CE." ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lion_Capital_of_Ashoka&diff=1103606176&oldid=1103596696 diff])

###On page 74, Asher had written: "Because the pillar was found in several fragments, writers generally assume that it was damaged willfully. Daya Ram wrote, 'It follows... that the columns was overthrown about the 10th, 11th or 12th century A.D. ...' {{tq|The implication is that Muslim invaders were the culprits and that iconoclasm was the motive, even though the pillar and its capital have no clear religious imagery.}}" In other words, at the end, Asher distanced himself from a commonplace inference by offering contradictory evidence.

##After I reverted the edit, based on my reading of Asher, Patliputra, (on 10 August, 2022, 15:22) changed his addition to, " following what many authors assume to be willfull destruction of the pillar, possibly related to Muslim invasions in the 10-12th century CE. " but again leaving out the nuance and narrative distancing in Asher. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lion_Capital_of_Ashoka&diff=next&oldid=1103667338 diff] "

{{collapse top|Similar examples in [[Qutb ud-Din Aibak]], [[Ghurid dynasty]], and [[Muhammad of Ghor]]}}

##After I removed the poor paraphrasing yet again, Patliputra appeared on [[Qutb ud-Din Aibak]], on 14 August 2022, and added, "That same year, Qutb ud-Din Aibak brought massive plunder and destructions to the area of [[Varanasi]], in order to "acquire land and wealth", allegedly destroying "idols in a thousand temples" ( [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Qutb_ud-Din_Aibak&diff=1104356664&oldid=1104355867 diff]. This time Patliputra quoted from a different page: "{{tq|And then, in 1193, Qutb-ud-din Aibek, the military commander of Muhammad of Ghor's army, marched towards Varanasi, where he is said to have destroyed idols in a thousand temples. Sarnath very likely was among the casualities of this invasion, one all too often seen as a Muslim invasion whose primary purpose was iconoclasm. It was of course, like any premodern military invasion, intended to acquire land and wealth.}} Asher was offering both the commonplace inference (Muslims destroyed 1000 temples because of iconoclasm) and the contrasting inference. Patliputra left out the contrasting inference, i.e. that iconoclasm might not have been the primary motive.

##On [[Ghurid dynasty]] at 6:13 15 August 2022 Patliputra added, "After the battle, Mu'izz continued his advance to the east, with his general [[Qutb ud-Din Aibak]] in the vanguard. The city of [[Benares]] (Kashi) was taken and razed, and "idols in a thousand temples" were destroyed." It was cited to Asher ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ghurid_dynasty&diff=1104474115&oldid=1104473236 diff]), and quoting the same sentence as the above in the citation, "{{tq|And then, in 1193, Qutb-ud-din Aibak, the military commander of Muhammad of Ghor's army, marched towards Varanasi, where he is said to have destroyed idols in a thousand temples. Sarnath very likely was among the casualities of this invasion, one all too often seen as a Muslim invasion whose primary purpose was iconoclasm. It was of course, like any premodern military invasion, intended to acquire land and wealth}}" with edit summary, "adapted from own sentence at Qutb ud-Din Aibak." Again, the commonplace interence that iconoclasm was the primary motive is left out.

##On [[Muhammad of Ghor]]], at 07:51 19 August, 2022, Patliputra added "In 1194, Mu'izz returned to India and crossed the [[Jamuna]] with an army of 50,000 horses and at the [[Battle of Chandawar]] defeated the forces of the [[Gahadavala dynasty|Gahadavala]] king [[Jayachandra]], who was killed in action. After the battle, Mu'izz continued his advance to the east, with his general [[Qutb ud-Din Aibak]] in the vanguard. The city of [[Benares]] (Kashi) was taken and razed, and 'idols in a thousand temples' were destroyed." cited by quoting the same sentence in Asher 2020, but again without the narrative distancing from iconoclasm. ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad_of_Ghor&diff=prev&oldid=1105239907 diff])

{{collapse bottom}}

[[User:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&amp;fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 14:24, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

====Proposal====

#'''Proposed''' that user:Packer&Tracker:

##Voluntarily stay away from editing the article [[Muhammad of Ghor]] and its sub-pages such as [[Siege of Lahore (1186)|Siege of Lahore]], until a consensus has been reached in the talk page discussion between TrangaBellam and Packer&Tracker on the text of the lead of Muhammad of Ghor; I am continuing to work on an NPOV version of that lead on a subpage of my user page: [[User:Fowler%26fowler/Muhammad_of_Ghor]].

## Or: Voluntarily stay away from editing Muhammad of Ghor and sub-pages until two months have elapsed, whichever period is shorter,

## Or failing both: Be partially blocked from editing [[Muhammad of Ghor]] and sub-pages for two months (similar to the manner they were partially blocked from editing [[Prithviraj Chauhan]] in April, though the issues then were somewhat different.) As yet, the talk page discussion on [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad_of_Ghor&diff=1117136146&oldid=1117124053#Religion religion] between [[user:TrangaBellam]] and [[user:Packer&Tracker]] (mainly) does not seem to be making progress. But, I'm hopeful.

#'''Proposed''' that user:Patliputra:

## Be [[WP:topic banned|topic banned]] from [[South Asian]] Islamic history ''broadly construed'' (1000&ndash;1765), for a period of two (2) months, whether or not they have edited other pages of that period besides the ones listed in paragraph five above. ((<small>I had originally proposed that a [[WP:IBAN|no fault two-way interaction ban]] be implemented between user:Patliputra and I, but that does not get to the heart of the matter here, which is the promotion of biased content involving South Asia's Islamic history across a range of articles. In light of the evidence in paragraph five in the sub-section above (which begins with, "Finally, edits and misinterpretations ...," I have amended the proposal.</small>)

#How the closing admin addresses my behavior issues is up to them. Still, I can assure them that I acknowledge my brusque language and will sincerely make a more concerted effort to avoid it in all my interactions on Wikipedia. I offer an unconditional apology not just to Packer&Tracker and Patliputra, but to all. The bottom line for me, though, is that even if I am blocked from ''all editing'' on Wikipedia for my lack of civility for two months, six months, a year, or permanently, the actions I have proposed for both user:Packer&Tracker and user:Patliputra are urgently needed, for these editors have violated core Wikipedia values of [[WP:NPOV]] and [[WP:DUE]]. Promotion of fringe and biased views is no longer blatant as it was in October 2006 when I arrived on Wikipedia; it is done in small doses, in different ways:

##for example by user:Patliputra by spamming the main respondent, user:SamuelRiv, at WP:RS/N&mdash;who had agreed that the use of old sources in support of an assertion is undue when little or no modern sources speak to it&mdash;with an indiscriminate list of citations in this [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=1100318152 edit] and eliciting in turn [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=next&oldid=1100327061 this] response.

##or by Packer&Tracker by dismissing off-handedly the Wikipedia policy on the use of [[WP:TERTIARY]] (in this instance widely used [[Talk:Muhammad_of_Ghor#Broad-scale_South_Asian_history_books|undergraduate or first-year graduate text-books]] published by scholarly publisher) in the evaluation of undue weight on [[Talk:Muhammad of Ghor]] in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad_of_Ghor&diff=1117298201&oldid=1117174686 this edit] of this week.

#*It is the cumulative effect, across a range of articles as seen in the case of both these editors, who in the wake of their edits have created [[WP:FALSEBALANCE]], that is dangerous (see [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=1107252938 this reply] by a respondent at [[WP:NPOVN|NPOV noticeboard]]). For it strikes at the very root of Wikipedia's reliability and trust, and takes years to root out.

Best regards, [[User:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&amp;fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 17:53, 18 October 2022 (UTC) Updated ([[User:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&amp;fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 15:09, 19 October 2022 (UTC))

:PS Patliputra in a counter-proposal below has asked that I strike out instances of my past incivilities. This I will not do even if it means that I am permanently banned from Wikipedia, for not only will examples of incivility not remain but so also examples of the contexts that drive editors such as I to resort to incivility, thereby creating the impression that we can create [[WP:UNDUE]] and [[WP:FALSEBALANCE]] as long as we do it politely. Patliputra has also suggested that I be thanked for my contributions. What would be the point of that? Wikipedia editors who know my work have already thanked me enough. And if imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, I have been thanked by the OED which borrowed the definition of the British Raj and by the occasional academic or journalist who has lifted entire paragraphs from my articles in their published works, for example, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Noticeboard_for_India-related_topics&oldid=880310217#Plagiarism_in_an_India-related_source,_published_by_a_reliable_publisher,_involving_copying_verbatim_from_a_WP_article. this]. [[User:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&amp;fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&amp;fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 15:37, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

===Discussion continued===

::The warning is old, when I had just started editing Wikipedia and knew nothing about any Wiki policies back then. I had apologized for the mistake.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Akshaypatill&diff=1052859457&oldid=1052855075] Fowler have thanked me on multiple instances since. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&logid=129394317][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&logid=129153586][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&logid=128042904][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&logid=126203802]. It's only when I differ with him, he brings the warning in discussion. Apart from that, I have reverted Fowler's edits only once. Also, I had been discussing the issues on the talk page, even before the edits. [[User:Akshaypatill|Akshaypatill]] ([[User talk:Akshaypatill|talk]]) 12:06, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

===Clarification===

→ {{reply to|Fowler&fowler}} Well, you can't accuse others of edit waring when you have been guilty of it yourself just like on blanket removal, regardless this is just another of your ploy to deviate from the topic - the due concerns on my part is already listed in detail at t/p and onus is on you to clear your part (again factal inaccuracy, pov pushing, unrerather then accusing others.

→ So, You are now using my 7-month old block to tilt it your way ? (When I was barely 300 edits old) - It's been 7 months and around 4k edits on my part afterwards that went largely in a collaborative manner

→ If I start dugging in then, your personal attacks, repeated brusqueness might fill up a page with plethora of diff's (the fact that you have already been on ANI for it twice within a short span is another absolute given), though I choosed to be relevant by only highlighting your recent brusqueness, one of you removed from your own user page a hour ago as well, only diff. is that you get away frequently with such behaviour, though others generally don't.

→ Please reply to my concerns at talk page regarding your edits instead of using blocks and warnings issued half a year ago in contrast to it, the one your recived for it is a bit recent as well- [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration_enforcement_log/2022&diff=prev&oldid=1113349527 diff]. [[User:Packer&#38;Tracker|∆ P&#38;t ♀√]] ([[User talk:Packer&#38;Tracker|talk]]) 11:58, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

{{reply to|Fowler&fowler}} Just for the record my random act of kindness award to [[User:Akshaypatill]] was for providing me with Andre Wink 2020 book's pdf and that's only communication I had with him in a year of editing and got not interset in your past interactions with him/her either.

→ The issues with your lead (factual inaccuracies, pov pushing, unrelated verbiage, omitting military debacles of the ruler are already highlighted by me at [[Talk:Muhammad of Ghor]]

→ You will be the last one to complain about blanket removal of other editors, when you yourself do it multiple times.

Please don't deviate from topic, my concern about your sourcing as well is already in detail explained at talk page. [[User:Packer&#38;Tracker|∆ P&#38;t ♀√]] ([[User talk:Packer&#38;Tracker|talk]]) 11:07, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

====P&t reply====

:Just for my clarity on the recent post by [[User:Fowler&fowler]]

: → The user only picked a few of diffs from user:Shshsh to make it appear that they were all but civil throughout the argument and as far as I can see they were blatantly opposed for pushing their pov:-

: → "Who cares? He's an actor, not a political figure. You better keep your enthusiasm with Hindu nationalist movements away from articles on ''actors''. Everyone has opinions (honestly, I didn't know all that until you just said it here but as I said, who cares anyway), Raj Kapoor did, and Dilip Kumar did, and so do the Khans, but they are ''actors'' - it's not what they're known for. I think a sentence about someone who's been public about the party they vote or something could do, but other than that, unless it gets significant coverage much to the point where they clearly become known for that, it's hardly notable" →[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Akshay_Kumar&diff=1116035193&oldid=1116033854]

:→ Their uncivil behaviour - "Are you kidding? Is this an ego trip against other editors or actual willingness to contribute and improve this page? I think your history shows more words than actions, and this hostile explosion of ego here is exactly why many reputable WP editors do not wish to collaborate with you and have often complained about your own POV pushing. Please be warned here that your threats will not be tolerated any longer.

:As for sources - it's never only about sourcing - WP:DUE is a huge part of writing articles. Please also note WP:BLP. They will lead this article, as will WP:CON. You should know that already. You do your job and others will do theirs', and we always have WP policy and other routes to achieving consensus and bringing a broaded number of opinions to fore" →[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Akshay_Kumar&diff=1116055277&oldid=1116053427] - this one came after F&f promised to give them a good run for the money: see [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Akshay_Kumar&diff=1116046675&oldid=1116046421] -

:→ Here is another involved senior editor who opposed their battleground attitude and pov pushing, see "LOL. This isn't Twitter. Kindly take your battleground mentality there" by [[User:Krimuk2.0|Krimuk2.0]][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Akshay_Kumar&diff=1116029905&oldid=1116029428] - battleground mentality.. (It's very easy to add a few line to make it appear as you want but on broader picture, there antagonistic behaviour was not a sweet headache for the involved editors)

:2): Now on [[Muhammad of Ghor]] page, their wild allegation that I am using sources from right-wing scholars is anything but another attempt to deviate from the topic sources i added there are from major scholars of medieval India and bar K.S. Lal none of them are even remotely close to it - the sources which donot agree with their pov, they do call them dubious, unreliable and dated.

:→ The editor is not knowledgable about the subject (Md Ghuri) which is apparent from insertion of their edit - [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad_of_Ghor&diff=1116359294&oldid=1116358673] and instead accused other for being pushing unreliable cruft, for which I explained them on their talk page:- [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Fowler%26fowler&diff=1116435789&oldid=1116421933] (lead summarizes the body which is quite a basic norm)

:→ I did this with their own high quality tertiary ref. and cited the other 3 as well whom they called dated and sub standard - just for the record those 3 "dated sources" were from (Satish Chandra 2007), (Md. Habib 1981 ed Nizami), (David Thomas 2018) the first two are/were major scholars of S.Asia and explicity of medieval period and the last one is from David Thomas who had his life researching about the Ghurians.

: → I didn't even changed the running name in the article (Mu'izz al-Din to Muhammad of Ghor) without consulting all involved editors there and actually improved on factually incorrect inf. there which was there since its creation namely - his only daughter which never got any mention, his forged gravesite, his brother's death year - 1203 not 1202, his C. Asia campaigns (created [[Battle of Andkhud]]) and against the Ghaznawids post his rout at Mt Abu - 1178 (created [[Siege of Lahore (1186)]], Had I have been only intersted in pushing only a Hindu right version, there was no meaning of creating [[Battle of Andkhud]] and [[Siege of Lahore (1186)]] which are not related to this movement by any means. (actually removed far fetched Hindu right forged version of Prithviraj killing him in Ghazna)

:Lastly →Please remove the forged and uncivil notice of not editing S.Asian articles as it was nothing but most likely a stunt to get commiseration of others which barely lasted for 24 hours . [[User:Packer&#38;Tracker|∆ P&#38;t ♀√]] ([[User talk:Packer&#38;Tracker|talk]]) 12:45, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

::I had posted a lengthy review of their "pov", "factually incorrect, "verbiaged", "absurd comparison" lead which doesn't look any distant from a pov blog and is anything lead of a neutral encyclopedic articles with [[WP:OR]] (pov) as well like :- easy victory- Tarain (1192), expunging a military debacle which ruined all his plan for conquest of western India; listed them all. (the lead generally is a summary of citations in the body and not a place to introduce pov, factually incorrect, unrelated verbiage either)

:: → The core of there edit comes from copy-pasting Richard Eaton (2019) whose basic factual inaccuracies I listed on the article's talk page with multiple contradicting reliable sources from top scholars like Andre Wink, Satish Chandra, C.E Bosworth, K.A. Nizami, Md. Habib, Aniruddha Ray, David Thomas etc, do have a look at it as well. (no issue in citing Eaton's earlier works bar this one - despite my general disaccord with his scholarship regarding religion bit)

:: → I have given up on their brusqueness (listed several instances in last few days itself not from me but other editors as well, which they cherrry picked to make it appear that their pov lead was getting upvoted by senior editors)

:: → My frequent posts on their talk page was more primarily on their forged and uncivil notice of quitting S. Asia articles particularly with last few lines where they as usually were making uncivil commentaries on some editors and the bona fide of it turned to be a deceptive one. Thanks. [[User:Packer&#38;Tracker|∆ P&#38;t ♀√]] ([[User talk:Packer&#38;Tracker|talk]]) 07:14, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

:::[[User:Packer&Tracker|Packer&Tracker]], could you please write shorter comments? This discussion is difficult to go through because of its length.<span id="Nythar:1666091623605:WikipediaFTTCLNAdministrators&apos;_noticeboard/Incidents" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;[[User:Nythar|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#36454f;">'''Nythar'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nythar|💬]]'''-'''[[Special:Contributions/Nythar|🎃]]) 11:13, 18 October 2022 (UTC)</span>

::::{{reply to|Nythar}} It's not easy to explain about the issue with proper context in less words. [[User:Packer&#38;Tracker|∆ P&#38;t ♀√]] ([[User talk:Packer&#38;Tracker|talk]]) 11:19, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

===Closure (likely)===

→ '''Disclaimer:- This will be most likely my last reponse here, it will be a long one addressing all the issues, bear with me'''

→ While, I don't think that it's very necessary to reopen old wounds here (on warnings and blocks - I recieved half a year ago); although I do agree that my conduct at [[Persecution of Hindus]] especially (that time) was deplorable and the two month block was warranted, having said that it's been some time since then (7months) and over 3,500 edits which mostly were in line with WP policies, including appropirate use of Red Warn & Twinkle tools (mostly), F&f is bringing them up here largely to deviate from the premier issue I and some other senior editors had with them - all in recent past (last week or so, including two reports at ANI one of them already ended with a warning)

→ You can't expect a consensus to build over night (on their remark that it's not going anywhere with TB); when you yourself frequently advocate that it took months in some contentious cases, though, early days but I am alright to engage with TrangaBellam (after few days to press upon the argument of including Religion section) given their rational and to the point arguments, though I do not agree with them on their take on historian [[Andre Wink]], but that's content dispute and will be resolved (hopefully) there without much drama (optimistic)

→ I do agree, my post on [[Talk:Muhammad of Ghor]] (clarification on typo i.e. 1148 -1173 - not certain about 1173 as well coz Minhaj al-Siraj and Firshta had 1169, another error in Eaton-2019 as Ghazni was not permanently annexed untill 1170 which he claimed in 1148, although this is not the only blatant factual error, see the whole thread for better picture) especially overnight could have been slightly better worded (first few lines) - but this doesn't seems very equitable (overloaded bit) coming from someone who was without anything accusing others of faking their ethnic/ gender identity (male as females/Pakistanis as Indians or vice-versa [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Fowler%26fowler&diff=1116792659&oldid=1116472922 diff]:- (not just overloaded it was degrading enough to warrants them a block there itself)

→ The frequent and tiresome accusation on me for promoting a Hindu right pov doesn't sit very well either with someone who created [[Battle of Andkhud]] & [[Siege of Lahore (1186)]] - two of his military campaigns which no one from Hindu rights (who are only intersted in his Indian campaigns - namely Kaydhara -1178, Tarain-I & Tarain-II and other naive/hillarious argument of his 17 failed invasions) have any idea about or if they do, it's very shabby one (both of them were rated as B-Class articles immediately on first review, which suggests that I do have a decent knowledge about the subject)

→ Now to brought down the curtain on my part, as they want me to get blocked from [[Muhammad of Ghor]] or stay away for two months (an article where I recieved a anti-vandalism barnstar [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Packer%26Tracker&diff=1091334342&oldid=1090886687 diff] and improved on it's gruesome factual inaccuracy with proper [[WP:HISTRS]]) & also on [[Delhi Sultanate]] (Heck, I barely contributed there apart from reverting vandals or just replacing a blog with proper RS - [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Delhi_Sultanate&diff=1104506565&oldid=1104503406 diff] - it's clearly in line with their recent vow to root out the so called "Hindu nationalist bias" or according to them "villification of Muslims" from the lead of these articles - as they couldn't succeed in their ambition at Muhammad of Ghor (reverted by another editor as well against whom they used a year old hounding warning to get away); Anyway, their lead was - factually incorrect, povish with dispensable veribage, asburd comparisons & so on - listed them all [[Talk:Muhammad of Ghor#Review of FA lead|here]] with contrasting RS.

→ There is no reason to support there filmsy argument of using so-called up to date sources, even if there are blatant inaccuracies in them, neither the sources, I added up in counter were from a century or two ago, most of them were from last 50 years and many were from post-1990 period.

→ I am contented to cooperate with anyone given the arguments are rational, to the point (not posting tiresome collection of unrelated sources, like they are doing which mentions about subject brief and vaguely - big no to Eaton 2019 -given the number of basic inaccuracies already highlighted, alright with his previous works) and have consensus among multiple reliable sources.

It's a wrap on my part here (hopefully). [[User:Packer&#38;Tracker|∆ P&#38;t ♀√]] ([[User talk:Packer&#38;Tracker|talk]]) 04:16, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

====OR claims====

→ For general persecution of the Ismailis:-

{{talk quote|However, on his way from the Punjab, Muizzuddin was killed on bank of Indus river by a band of Karamatians, which we have seen were a fanatic sect which had absorbed many features of Hindu Buddhists beliefs and which '''Muizuddin had persecuted in his life time'''}}

(Satish Chandra 2004; pp:-28)

→{{talk quote|The suppression of revolot in the Punjab occupied Mu'izz al-Din's closing months, for on the way back to Ghaza he was assasinated, allegedly by emmisaries of the Isma'ils whom he had often persecuted during his life time}}

(C.E. Bosworth 1968; pp:-168)

(Hindu right don't care about hosility of Sunnis over Ismailis either)

→ {{talk quote|This area of proselytization presumably included Sindh, which had been annexed to the Ghurid territories. However, Muhammad Ghiyath al-Din (d. 599/1202), Al al-Din’s successor, reacted violently to the Ismaili presence. Juzjani records:-In every place wherein the odour of their impure usages was perceived, throughout the territory of Ghur, slaughter of all heretics [Ismailis] was commanded. ... The area of the country of Ghur, which was a mine of religion and orthodoxy, was purified from the infernal impurity of the Qarmatians [i.e., the Ismailis].

It was at about this time that the Ismailis again lost their power in Multan, for in 570/1175, Sultan Mu^izz al-Din Ghuri ‘‘delivered Multan from the hands of the

Qarmatians.}}

(Shafique Virani; 2007; pp:-100)

→ Destruction of temples in Kashi:-

{{talk quote|We do not know much about the first Muslim raid on Benares, by Ahmad Nayaltigin in 1033 AD, which appears merely to have been a plundering expedition. When Muhammad Ghuri marched on the city, we are merely told that after breaking the idols in above 1000 temples, he purified and consecrated the latter to the worship of the true God}}

(Andre Wink 1991; pp:-333)

* {{talk quote|Shihabuddin captured the treasure fort of Asni and then proceeded to Benaras, 'where he converted about thousand idol-temples into house for the Musalmans}}

(Mohammad Habib 1981; pp:-116)

* {{talk quote|We are told that Jaichandra had almost carried the day when he was killed by an arrow, and his army was totally defcated. Muizzuddin now moved on to Banaras which was ravaged, a large number of temples there being destroyed}}

(Satish Chandra 2007; pp:-67)

→ Large-scale conversion of Khokhars/Buddhists:-

{{talk quote|The frontier tribes were the first difficulty. Sultan Mahmud had established garrisons and forts in their territory but there were still Buddhists and Shihabuddin realised that nothing short of their conversion would solve the problem. So the Tariyah infidels who lived in the hills between Ghazni and Punjab, and considered the slaying of a Muslim as path to paradise were brought in the pale of Islam through kindness and through force. About three or four lakh of the infidels who wore sacred threads were made Musalmans during this campaign}}

(Mohamad Habib; 1981, pp:-133-134)

The quote box and massacres was already to K.S Lal and I removed it myself before the blanket removal, in any case since the section is already removed this is rather basless accusations, I am not intersted in arguing much either here as my closing comments are already put in earlier. I don't want to stress much over it and isn't intersted in wasting more time but since it's allegation of putting OR, thats why this was posted (hopefully it's last one before admin take a call) No inention of vilifying anyone. [[User:Packer&#38;Tracker|∆ P&#38;t ♀√]] ([[User talk:Packer&#38;Tracker|talk]]) 13:11, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

====On appology====

→ I am not very much bothered about the appology part (have done it so many times as [[User:पाटलिपुत्र|पाटलिपुत्र]] pointed out in comments below), but just for the record, their uncivil and forged notice of quitting S. Asian articles (as they appeared on the same article within hours) where they were without anything alleging other editors of faking their Gender/Ethnic identity - ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Fowler%26fowler&diff=1116792873&oldid=1116673376 diff]) that was good enough to warrants them a block just there, ignoring everything else - pity though that they were not even warned/notified for that.

→ I am amused that how they are still in a position to propose a 2-month block from Md Ghuri's article (for me) & topic ban from Islamic history of S. Asian articles ([[User:पाटलिपुत्र|पाटलिपुत्र]]) - just for the fact that we added sourced content (which they initially called [[WP:OR]] but now branded it as fringe or insulting) which in their opinion is associated with the so-called Hindutva movement and villifying Islam (typical apologetic attitude for Islam) - their frequent bashing and branding of reliable sources from reputed academicians as fringe, non-reliable, dated etc. is another of their behaviour which is quite annoying to say the least.

→ Seeing the latest comments in the section below, I was taken aback that how the editors, branded me as a antagonist here as well, to clear my part here, before F&f arrived on [[Talk:Muhammad of Ghor]] with a discourteous tone branding all as Hindu nationalists (quite obssesed with Hindutva movements as well - [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Akshay_Kumar&diff=1116035193&oldid=1116033854 diff]), take a look at my conduct on the article where even for a trivial issues like running name in article - I consulted every [[WP:Involved|involved editor]] there, see [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad_of_Ghor&diff=1110897529&oldid=1102872889 diff].

→ The main reason why I contributed to this page coz, I was surprised to see such a error-ridden article earlier this year for a important historical figure, that's why I improved on number of errors in the article namely - his forged tomb in Dhamiak (which is in Ghazni), his daughter (as previous versions claimed that he didn't had a offspring), his brother death year, their early carrers and military expeditions etc. I am not at all associated with any political movements or have any political leanings (zero interset in politics and beyond my area of prowess) and even if I do have one, I prefer to not reflect that in my professionalism or in my communication at talk pages. I was genuine throughout in my effort on that article.

→ To say, that to take the article back to that old error-ridden version is like a a slap in the face of all my hard-work there and that too without any reason on my part on that article (like a good reason to prevent me from editing that page apart from their absurd accusations of villifying Islam and that all)

→ Even in future, I don't have any issue in collaborating (on two way IBAN) - with any editor on any issue, given they remain rational, to the point and not always be rigid in conceding on an issue where they apparently lost, Thanks. [[User:Packer&#38;Tracker|∆ P&#38;t ♀√]] ([[User talk:Packer&#38;Tracker|talk]]) 12:35, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

====sockpuppet indian users====

<s>I agree with [[User:Fowler&fowler|Fowler&fowler]], there is lots of Hindu nationalist editors whom are abusing their editing responsibilities above Afghanistan and Pakistan historical articles, possibly they are one group or sockpuppet users including [[User:Packer&#38;Tracker|∆ P&#38;t ♀√]], [[User:Utcursch|Utcursch]], [[User:Akshaypatill|Akshaypatill]]. They revert everything with reliable sources and pushing their POV on it. if Wikipedia become a POV information of powerful users then nobody will trust on Wikipedia’s informative articles. Please take some serious legal action on it and don’t let to Wikipedia become a place of POV of powerful users. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/203.171.112.23|203.171.112.23]] ([[User talk:203.171.112.23#top|talk]]) 18:48, 18 October 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--></s><small>struck sock comments--[[User:RegentsPark|RegentsPark]] <small>([[User talk:RegentsPark|comment]])</small> 21:25, 18 October 2022 (UTC)</small>

:Accusing others of sock puppetry without evidence is considered a [[WP:NPA|personal attack]]. Don't do it again. &mdash; <b>[[User:HandThatFeeds|<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS; color:DarkBlue;cursor:help">The Hand That Feeds You</span>]]:^{[[User talk:HandThatFeeds|Bite]]}</b> 20:25, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

:: no one is crazy to accuse others for sock puppetry unless who seen something wrong, you can check their recent contributions and it will tell everything and that’s evidence, such as now also the [[User:RegentsPark|RegentsPark]] as a indian user are supporting thier indian editors for vandalism and pov pushing in a proxy way, why you guys can’t see the truth, these things made Wikipedia a false information resource for whom looking for information or reading, every Indian editors are edit articles for their own POV and racism or nationalist beliefs, for example the user [[User:Packer&#38;Tracker|∆ P&#38;t ♀√]]

::Removed 13,704 additions with reliable sources from article [[Muhammad of Ghor]] [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad_of_Ghor&diff=prev&oldid=1116794250]

::In order to support their indian user [[User:Akshaypatill|Akshaypatill]]’s POV editing (unexplained removal) and [[User:Packer&#38;Tracker]] are tryna always hide her/his disruptive editing and nationalist vandalism with random no related WP codes and that’s not make any sense actually, on the [[Muhammad of Ghor]]’s article user [[User:Akshaypatill|Akshaypatill]] started unexplained removal of 13,704 with reliable sources additions without engagement on talk page with other editor and it turned into a edit war [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad_of_Ghor&diff=prev&oldid=1116759066] [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad_of_Ghor&diff=prev&oldid=1116776865] and the edit war continued by [[User:Packer&#38;Tracker]] [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad_of_Ghor&diff=prev&oldid=1116794250] on behalf of [[User:Akshaypatill|Akshaypatill]], it’s happens while both of them ignored [[Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle|the bold, revert, discuss cycle]] term and they violated the three-revert policy, this is a proxy game and I really tired of this much nationalist editors and racism in Wikipedia

===Pataliputra's statement===

One more dispute, again triggered by Fowler&fowler's inflamatory approach to collaborative editing.... Fowler&fowler is a valuable editor, but unfortunately a recurrently incivil and bad-mannered one, leading to much unnecessary disruption. His expertise in some areas of South Asia is undeniable, although he seems fairly out of his depth in matters related to ancient history and art ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Lion_Capital_of_Ashoka&diff=prev&oldid=1101073013 one example]), and repeatedly resorts to "wild [[WP:OR|OR]]" as pointed out by [[User:Johnbod]] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Lion_Capital_of_Ashoka&diff=prev&oldid=1101002293]. His typical battle lines revolve around the Muslim vs Hindu issue, and anyone contradicting him will be immediately branded an "Islamophobic" [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Lion_Capital_of_Ashoka&diff=1103670498&oldid=1103667405] or an "Hindu nationalist" [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad_of_Ghor&diff=1113610559&oldid=1112493862] (for the record, I am related to neither faith, and have no relation whatsoever to India despite my user name). When in disagreement, Fowler&fowler is unfortunately rude, brutal and inflammatory, and content disputes which could be resolved by the usual discussion process inevitably heat up because of the rabidness and the invectives. Fowler&fowler has received numerous administrative warnings already for his systematic un-Wikipedian editorial behaviour, including recently 2 warnings for edit warring [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RRArchive431#User%3AFowler%26fowler_reported_by_User%3A%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%9F%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%81%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0_%28Result%3A_Warned%29] (by Admin [[User:EdJohnston]]) and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RRArchive456#User:Fowler&fowler_reported_by_User:%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%9F%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%81%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0_(Result:_No_violation_User_warned)] (by Admin [[User:Bishonen]]), and 1 warning for personnal attacks and incivility [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration_enforcement_log/2022&diff=prev&oldid=1113349527] (by Admin [[User:El C]], following [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1109#Fowler&fowler this]), to no avail. I dislike having to post here, and I personally value Fowler&fowler as a Wikipedia content contributor, but the behavioural issues have been going on for too long: some more radical measures have to be taken to make Fowler&fowler finally understand that incivility and [[WP:PA|personal attacks]] are unacceptable behaviours on Wikipedia and are extremely disruptive. I will not comment further, and will not respond to the predictable litany of abuse that will be crafted in response to this post. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">[[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:green">पाटलिपुत्र</span>]][[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:blue"> Pataliputra</span>]]</span> [[User talk:पाटलिपुत्र|'''(talk)''']] 09:23, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

====Response to Fowler&fowler's "Patliputra" statement above====

A few comments on [[User:Fowler&fowler]]'s [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Patliputra "Patliputra" statement] above, which was predictably crafted in reponse to my post:<br>

1) Fowler&fowler writes that I "''contributed text on temple desecration to the Muhammad of Ghor article along with Packer&Tracker"'' [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Patliputra]. This is basically untrue. As far as I am aware, I did not contribute a '''''single word''''' to Packer&Tracker's paragraph on [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad_of_Ghor&diff=prev&oldid=1113484482#Religion Religion], about which Fowler&fowler has expressed a full list of issues [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Religion_section_and_Hindu_majoritarian_bias]. Furthermore, I do not have any opinion about this specific paragraph, the details of which are beyond my area of expertise. The only remotely related content I added was derived from the [[Ghurid dynasty]] article, related to the military campaigns, using sources such as Asher (2020) [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad_of_Ghor&diff=1105239907&oldid=1104451303]. This content essentially remains in Fowler&fowler's last preferred version of the article [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad_of_Ghor&oldid=1116793351] and has not been challenged. So much for the attempts at depicting some sort of "Indian/Hindu coalition vs Fowler&fowler" (and again I have no relation whatsoever to India despite my user name).<br>

2) All other elements provided by Fowler&fowler (1 to 4 [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Patliputra]) are besides the point of this ANI thread, and seem to confuse a few Talk Page discussions, over a period of several years, with actual Wikipedia offenses.... Hopefully, we are allowed to have Talk Page discussions on Wikipedia, and sometimes even disagreements. This has to be done factually, in a cool and civil manner without making personal attacks. This is what I have always endeavoured to do, but what Fowler&fowler has repeatedly failed to observe as shown by his multiple Administrative warnings ( [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RRArchive431#User%3AFowler%26fowler_reported_by_User%3A%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%9F%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%81%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0_%28Result%3A_Warned%29][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RRArchive456#User:Fowler&fowler_reported_by_User:%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%9F%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%81%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0_(Result:_No_violation_User_warned)][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration_enforcement_log/2022&diff=prev&oldid=1113349527].... and these are only the recent ones). Again, I appreciate Fowler&fowler as a contributor, but he has to understand that civility with other users is non-negotiable. In so many instances in the past, Fowler&fowler has made amends and made beautiful promises not to continue personal attacks, only to break his promise as soon as discussions heat up a bit. In order to prevent such recurrent toxicity, a clear message has to be sent by Admins that Fowler&fowler's incivilities and personal attacks are unacceptable.<br>

3) As to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Patliputra paragraph 5], Fowler&fowler seems to overreact everytime he feels that Islam might be slighted (and here accuses me of edits ''"antithetical to Islamic conquerors of India, and by implication, to Islam"'' [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=1117490582&oldid=1117489332], hmmm, no less... hopefully I will not be subjected to a ''[[Fatwa]]''....). For the record, I am totally unrelated to either Islam or Hinduism, and have no bias towards any religion whatsoever (I actually appreciate all religions for their cultural and historical aspects). In this instance, I have simply been reporting an aspect of [[Muslim conquests in the Indian subcontinent|12th century Muslim exactions in India]] in a few closely related articles, closely paraphrasing one of the foremost and most recent experts on the question (Asher 2020):

"{{tq|And then, in 1193, [[Qutb ud-Din Aibak|Qutb-ud-din Aibek]], the military commander of [[Muhammad of Ghor]]'s army, marched towards [[Varanasi]], where he is said to have destroyed idols in a thousand temples. [[Sarnath]] very likely was among the casualities of this invasion, one all too often seen as a Muslim invasion whose primary purpose was iconoclasm. It was of course, like any premodern military invasion, intended to acquire land and wealth.}}"[https://books.google.com/books?id=JMHEDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA11]... As far as I know, reporting facts, as described by reliable sources, is simply what we do on Wikipedia, and this has primacy over individual sensitivities...<br>

<span style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">[[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:green">पाटलिपुत्र</span>]][[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:blue"> (Pataliputra)</span>]]</span> [[User talk:पाटलिपुत्र|'''(talk)''']] 14:31, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

===="Unconditional apology" by Fowler&fowler====

{{ping|Fowler&fowler}} You are offering an "unconditional apology" above, in the sentence: {{tq|"''I acknowledge my brusque language and will sincerely make a more concerted effort to avoid it in all my interactions on Wikipedia. I offer an unconditional apology not just to Packer&Tracker and Patliputra, but to all.''"}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=1117586030&oldid=1117585139]. If your apologies are sincere, why don't you start by <s>'''''striking'''''</s> your past incivilities and personnal attacks? I know the task is rather titanesque, but you could start from some of the latest ones (a sample: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=1099812725][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Lion_Capital_of_Ashoka&diff=1108828927&oldid=1108828414][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=1099548540][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Lion_Capital_of_Ashoka&diff=1108826163&oldid=1108821441][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Lion_Capital_of_Ashoka&diff=1103670498&oldid=1103667405][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad_of_Ghor&diff=1113610559&oldid=1112493862][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Lion_Capital_of_Ashoka&diff=1100425189&oldid=1100411421]), and then go back in time progressively... <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">[[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:green">पाटलिपुत्र</span>]][[Pataliputra|<span style="color:blue"> (Pataliputra)</span>]]</span> [[User talk:पाटलिपुत्र|'''(talk)''']] 16:53, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

====Proposal====

Given [[User:Fowler&fowler]]'s inability to refrain from personal attacks and incivilities over the years, despite repeated apologies and promises to correct himself, and despite official administrative '''warnings''' for "personnal attacks and incivilities" (the most recent one being [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration_enforcement_log/2022&diff=prev&oldid=1113349527 this one], by Admin [[User:El C]] following this administrative admonition: ''"But, again, out-the-blue attacks, or any attacks for that matter, those needs to stop, like, immediately. The only reason you're not facing sanctions of considerable severity right now is because you've had a good track record in past years. But the good will that has bought you only goes so far, and I submit to you that you've used much of it up at this point."'' [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=1113348569]), the Wikipedia community should offer a strong, although symbolic, message that such behaviour is not acceptable anymore:<br>

1) Fowler&fowler should be blocked from editing for a short period of time, either as he himself suggested {{tq|''"blocked from all editing on Wikipedia for my lack of civility for two months or longer"''}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=1117630524&oldid=1117628226] or, probably more appropriately, for a symbolically short duration, such as a few days or '''1 week'''.<br>

2) More importantly, Fowler&fowler should be requested to '''clean up''' his past incivilities and personnal attacks (for example by striking them from Talk Pages, although edit summaries will unfortunately remain...), before returning to normal editing, so that he can demonstrate his true intent to amend, and more importantly, so that South Asian Talk pages can be cleaned up from too many inflammatory statements.<br>

3) Other issues mentioned in this thread essentially revolve around content issues, which can be amicably resolved (or have already been resolved long ago) through civil talk page discussions.<br>

4) Fowler&fowler should nevertheless be thanked again for his productive and knowledgeable contributions to Wikipedia, and greatly encouraged to continue contributing in a civil manner.

<span style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">[[User:पाटलिपुत्र|<span style="color:green">पाटलिपुत्र</span>]][[Pataliputra|<span style="color:blue"> (Pataliputra)</span>]]</span> [[User talk:पाटलिपुत्र|'''(talk)''']] 11:36, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

===Comments===

*This comment is beneath one of Pataliputra's, but only because this is the bottom of the sprawling and chaotic thread. I address all the participants here and not just Pataliputra.

:As encyclopaedists, our task is ''precis'': we summarize complex matters clearly and succinctly. If you can't write a simple, clear summary that includes clear citations with evidence of all the claims you make, you are in the wrong hobby.

:When dealing with editors from India I feel it would be unreasonable of us to exclude mobile diffs. Those of us in Western Europe where everyone has access to a desktop computer with reliable wi-fi need to consider that not everyone has our advantages. A high proportion of Indians are trying to contribute from mobile phones or tablets because the alternative is not to contribute at all.

:And while I'm talking about cultural relativity, civility standards vary from place to place and in India, they are often relatively high. Personally it has been my experience that editors originating from India tend to display, and expect, higher standards of civility than might prevail elsewhere. What to me might be a relatively mildly uncivil remark is more offensive out there.

:I think Fowler&fowler's unconditional and very handsome apology, above, is very helpful and I wish Pataliputra would (a) accept it with good grace and (b) reciprocate in similar terms for their own behaviour. I can certainly see benefits to a two-way iban between these editors.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S&nbsp;Marshall</b>]]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 22:29, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

::Even though mobile sucks, mobile diffs should never be excluded as a rule. No one should be forced to convert them to desktop. Here, however, this was only ''recommended'' so as to increase {{tq|the chances of an uninvolved review}}. A recommendation which the OP has chosen to adopt. I think it's fair to tell a user whose complaint has 20 mobile diffs, that these display terrible on desktop. Why should they not know? [[User:El_C|El_C]] 03:15, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

::: Oh, let us not patronise Indians. They are fools if they think they can write an encycopedia using a mobile phone. The use of mobiles is more likely to be a convenience, ''their'' convenience. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 06:45, 21 October 2022 (UTC)