Contents

User talk:Asmodeus: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 17:08, 7 October 2006

With regards to your comments on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe: Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. "Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users." Please keep this in mind while editing. Thanks.

Much as I hate making this sort of thing official, your comments about myself, Byrgenwulf and Jeffire on the above-mentioned AfD have, in my opinion, crossed the line. WP:NPA refers. Tevildo 01:38, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Response Pardon me, but I just noticed your message.

Byrgenwulf has been making unsupported, unverifiable attacks on the topic of this article. Indeed, in clear violation of Wikipedia policy regarding neutrality and verifiability, both of you have been attacking the content, or topic, of the article rather than the article itself. All that the article has to do is faithfully report what appeared in the press and was written by Langan; given the clear notability of the content, you have no right whatsoever to carp and complain about it, at least in the capacity of Wikipedia editors acting in good faith. All you can do is report what other sufficiently notable people have said about the theory in sufficiently reputable and verifiable sources. If you choose to carp and complain anyway, particularly in a way that influences how the article is edited - after all, voting for deletion amounts to attempting to edit the article, right out of existence in fact, and likewise for encouraging others to vote as you do - then you are yourself in contempt of Wikipedia policy, and it is hypocritical of you to complain when you get the worst of it.

Instead of supporting his (and your) claims, as is your editorial responsibility, Byrgenwulf ignored his responsibility and attempted to infuse his attacks with authority by claiming to be a professional philosopher of physics. He did this both voluntarily and dishonestly, and that is now a proven fact. Once you have been shown to be something, that's it - anybody can point it out, as many times as he or she likes. If Byrgenwulf has been shown to be dishonest, or not an expert as he claims to be, anyone is free to state as much whenever convenient. Wikipedia policy is not just something that people like Byrgenwulf, and you, and jeffire, can point to when you don't like the way things are going for you, but then ignore whenever you can get away with it. It is something that applies to you as well.

Incidentally, although you may think that I find your supercilious comments about philosophy impressive, this is anything but the case. Quite the opposite, in fact. I am quite certain, on the basis of your snide and shallow comments, that your level of philosophical understanding is nothing to respect. In fact, it may even be as deficient as Byrgenwulf's own. Please bear this in mind as you attempt to do the Wikipedia community, and the world at large, a monumental disservice by attacking a valuable, informative, and well-referenced article on a notable topic just to strike a blow for your own inability to comprehend it while meanwhile advancing your own opinions. Truly, this is a black mark on your record. Asmodeus 03:41, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please refrain from making personal attacks, this is a blockable offense, see WP:NPA. And especially stop using th edit summary to make personal attacks. --Pjacobi 19:36, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Response As you are very well aware, you were not attacked on personal grounds. It was merely pointed out to you and others that you are in violation of Wikipedia policy. You have failed to verify or in any way substantiate your biased remarks, which you are nevertheless using as grounds to recommend deletion of the article. Again, this is reprehensible, and that's a fact. Of course, I'm very sorry if your feelings were hurt in any way. My best advice to you would be to carefully review Wikipedia policy, and be sure to meet your editorial obligations in the future. Asmodeus 20:21, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I thought you were remembering your edits better. This one is the most blatant violation of WP:NPA

• [1]

Pjacobi 20:24, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Let me refresh your memory.

pjacobi: Delete - one person's theory, not in any way in contact with academic reserach. --Pjacobi 13:44, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

My response: Who cares how many people wrote it, or whether it is "in contact with academic reserach"? If you want to read about things that are "in contact with academic reserach", you should subscribe to academic journals. Wikipedia is not an appendage of academia, and the CTMU nowhere relies on "contact with academic reserach" to make its points. Please, let's keep our eyes on the ball here. Asmodeus 15:48, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Now please read carefully.

1. Most theories are written by one person; others are free to utilize them (or not) in their own work later on down the line, as they choose. That others have not yet chosen to do so need not reflect on the theory or its applicability to important issues, particularly given the polarization associated with the central focus of the scholastic journal in which the CTMU was published. This is not necessarily a reflection on the theory; it is more likely pertinent to the philosophical assumptions under which others are working, which - inasmuch as we are, after all, talking about philosophy - may ultimately lead nowhere. Indeed, it may merely mean that other scholars are unfamiliar with the theory because they only pay attention to a narrow or professionally closed set of sources. You have improperly recommended this article for deletion on those grounds, and that was wrong of you as a Wikipedia editor.

This leads us to

2. It makes no difference whether a theory is "notable to academic researchers" (whether or not this is the case). It has been patiently explained to you that academics are not the ones who make this particular theory notable; it is notable because it was covered by highly reputable sources in the popular media, and because it has a remarkable structure that no other theory possesses. Again, citing the superficially apparent inattention of academia as grounds for deletion was irresponsible of you as a Wikipedia editor.

You have voted to delete an informative, well-verified article about a notable topic on irrelevant or nebulous grounds for which you have no verification. In so doing, you have let Wikipedia and its readership down. Please be more responsible about your editing activities in the future. Asmodeus 21:45, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is not about my vote but about you attacking another editor. --Pjacobi 21:58, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Again? [2] --Pjacobi 22:14, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You evidently failed to read the comments to which I was responding. Perhaps you also missed the bursts of fraud and disinformation emanating from Byrgenwulf at al. Maybe you did, maybe you didn't...I don't really care one way or the other. But in any case, please go away. Asmodeus 22:39, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Others also violating policy is no excuse. If you want to to report specific incidents, please give me or another admin a diff to the incident. You can also use Wikipedia:Personal attack intervention noticeboard. oh, you were already reported there, I see. Anyway, regarding abuse in edit comments, your contributions clearly stand out [3]. --Pjacobi 23:09, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ah...so you're an administrator (maybe). Pardon me, then - you were apparently only trying to do your job.

I was thrown off by the fact that you voted, non-neutrally and without verification for your editorial remarks. Surely an administrator doesn't want to be caught violating Wikipedia policy? I guess I'm a bit confused.

But may I ask you a question? Have you cited anyone else for incivility? A simple yes or no would do - I'm not interested in whom else you cited. I'd just like to ascertain that you're being balanced in your assessments, that's all. You've got a very bad show going on here, a regular grabastic kangaroo court, and in no way am I the cause of it.

But I think you probably knew that already, didn't you.

Anyway, thanks in advance for your forthcoming assurance of administrative symmetry (or maybe not...). Asmodeus 23:59, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As you have guessed, I've warned nobody else. It was the attack in your edit summary that caught my eye. I checked whether the posting you were responding to was an attack and judged it not be. My actions as admin are unrelated to my actions as editor (like contributing to AfD -- it's not a vote actually). For this reason I'll most likely (read: if no immediate response is required) I have to involve another admin for deciding to actually block you. --Pjacobi 00:10, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

These remarks, [4] [5] [6] [7] violate Wikipedia policies on personal attacks and civility. This kind of language becomes disruptive very quickly. Please don't do this any more, or it may be neccessary to temporarily suspend your editing privileges. Tom Harrison ^Talk 01:51, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Blocked

The incivil hostility of these remarks is disruptive.[8][9] I'm blocking you for twenty-four hours. When you come back, please take more care with your words. Tom Harrison ^Talk 01:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You're making a personal judgment call, and it's a bad one. In at least two of those comments, I was being positively moderate. In no case was anyone personally attacked, called names, or treated in any way that wouldn't have flown on any other site but this one. You're protecting miscreants, probably out of personal bias, and In my humble opinion, you're totally out of line. Just thought I'd let you know. Asmodeus 05:07, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As you have edited the article on the Mega Society, I wish to inform you it is up for deletion. I saw that you are active in the debate over the deletion of the CTMU article. Although I am not completely certain, I am suspicious that Byrgenwulf and Jefffire have put the Mega Society article up for deletion because of its (now tenuous) link with Christopher Langan and the CTMU. I mean no disrespect, but, especially since you have gotten into trouble with admins in the past, please be circumspect in your posts in both debates. It does not help our argument to even appear to be making personal attacks. —Tox 09:11, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is a difference between making personal attacks and correcting disinformation. The worst of which I can be accused is attempting to correct disinformation, sometimes a bit impatiently. (On the other hand, when editors of the CTMU article were falsely and maliciously accused of forging source material - that is, personally attacked, and repeatedly - nobody said a word, and no moderator lifted a finger. Clearly, something's not right there.) Regarding the Mega Society, I'm afraid you're on your own. I'm not interested in it or its Wikipedia article. If it is associated with Langan or the CTMU, that may well be a shame...but if the truth be told, probably more so for Langan and the CTMU than the Mega Society itself. (If there's anything else I can help you with, just let me know.) Asmodeus 13:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your efforts to save CTMU. No one can say we didn't try. You might want to add your opinion to the deletion review. Thanks again. Tim Smith 21:57, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to be a big fan of this CTMU thingie. I have to ask: are you by any chance Christopher Michael Langan IRL?

If so, as a matter of common courtesy, I think you need to disclose this on the talk page when you edit articles like Christopher Michael LanganorMega Foundation. If challenged, this would help you make a case that your edits are in good faith. Wikipedia currently has a huge problem with vanity cruft, so many users are apt to become concerned when they see edits which suggest a possible undisclosed personal interest in slanting a WP article in some direction.---CH 23:19, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Response Thank you for your concern. However, from where I sit, it isn't my "good faith" that is at issue here. It's the good faith of the AfD initiator and his fellow instigators that is at issue. After all, I didn't write the CTMU article. Tim Smith did, and I don't know Mr. Smith from Adam.

Suffice it to say that I consider myself to be somewhat knowledgable regarding the topic of that article, and rather than let Wikipedia readers be deceived, disinformed, and otherwise steered wrong about it, feel a responsibility to edit any part of it which I know to be erroneous or malicious in nature. All of my edits to date have satisfied this criterion.

In addition, you should know that even if I wanted to introduce myself to you - and as it happens, I feel no such desire - I certainly wouldn't do so in any way that might advantage people whom I consider to be hostile, untrustworthy, or despicable, no matter how hard and hypocritically they try to blend into the Wikipedia community. Needless to say, that includes some of those involved in this AfD.

If there's anything else I can help you with, just let me know. If I don't find your request too arrogant, invasive, or adversarial, I may consider it. Now have a nice evening. Asmodeus 05:21, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi,

I am going to assume that you were merely very confused. When an admin closes a log, one does not reopen it to add additional comments. Refer to the recently concluded section of the main DRV page for the result: in the case of CTMU, that result is "Deletion endorsed".

Repeated reversion of administrative closures would be grounds for a block; I'm sure your action today was a simple accident, though. Best wishes, Xoloz 23:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Asmodeus, you will probably be interested in this MfD. ---CH 23:32, 28 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I notice that you've edited a few philosophy articles. Have you considered joining the Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy? It is an effort to coordinate the work of Wikipedians who are knowledgeable about philosophy in an effort to improve the general quality and range of Wikipedia articles on philosophical topics. DrL 21:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You obviously already know about Wikipedia's policies on personal attacks and incivility, since you've been blocked for this kind of behaviour before. These edits ([10],[11]), among many others, I regard as being unduly offensive, not to mention completely off-topic. Please stop this disruptive behaviour now. Thanks. Byrgenwulf 22:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why don't you just stop harassing Asmodeus, Byrgenwulf? He is not attacking you. I think you have things backwards. DrL 23:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Would you consider accepting me as your advocate for the case? This would allow us to present a consistent, coherent argument, rather than two separate arguments. --David Mestel^(Talk) 07:02, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Response Of course I'd consider it. I would, however, ask that you make very sure that you have enough spare time to actually pursue the case. I'd also ask you to understand that User Hillman's behavior has flipped over a rotten log here at Wikipedia, and that I have no intention of either ignoring what is underneath it or allowing Hillman to extract concessions of any kind without making important concessions of its own.

I don't know whether you're familiar with the full history of this dispute. But to make a long story short, an utter mockery was made of Wikipedia and its guidelines by a certain militant faction as it engaged in a vicious but comically misguided attempt to sabotage and/or delete a handful of articles related to a certain notable person and his equally notable ideas. This group was led by two people, User Hillman and an intellectually incompetent, ethically unconstrained newbie. As I see it, User Hillman, probably being old enough to know better and having a bit more upstairs, bears most of the responsibility.

This attempt, which involved various glaring abuses of Wikipedia policy, childish errors of classification, and lopsided, blame-the-victims administrative intervention (see above), was all the more comical for its bizarre success. However, I'm not laughing, because it wasted a lot of my time. Thus, I don't think that User Hillman should skate away clean. At the very least, they/he/she/it must agree to stay away from DrL and me, period, and agree not to mount any more soapboxes or mindlessly incite any more mob action against us or our editorial activities (which are, after all, well in accord with Wikipedia policy and guidelines, and probably well over Hillman's head as well).

Needless to say, the removal of all personal material regarding DrL and me is absolutely non-negotiable. All that is open for negotiation are the conditions under which this will occur. If these stipulations are agreeable to you, let me know...and in any event, thanks. Asmodeus 19:31, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think that we probably do have a reasonable case for the removal of all the personal info, so yes, those seem reasonable at the moment. It seems like Hillman is prepared to negotiate in good faith to try to find an amicable solution to this problem without resorting to formal dispute resolution, which is always good news. I would ask that you allow me to conduct the negotiations on your behalf for the moment, as it is possible that due to your disagreements in the past, Hillman may be less likely to accept proposals which come directly from you. --David Mestel^(Talk) 20:51, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Hello, David. I note that on Hillman's Talk page, somebody has remarked that early in the discussion, I mentioned a couple of details regarding the personal identity of Byrgenwulf. The reason: in attempting to lend weight to his attack on the CTMU article, Byrgenwulf had claimed to "work professionally in the field (of the philosophy of physics)".

Inasmuch as Byrgenwulf thereby invited others to perceive him as a professional philosopher of physics, and his attack on the CTMU as a "professional" judgment by a qualified authority, I needed to set the record straight. There was only one way to do this: to make note of the truth - that Byrgenwulf is merely a college student - and give the means of verification (an Internet search on "Byrgenwulf"). At the time, I was unfamiliar with some of the rules of the site; I was only aware that Byrgenwulf was being dishonest in a way calculated to sway the issue, and that somebody needed to do something about it. Indeed, since there seems to be no other way to refute false claims of expertise or professional status on the parts of personally or ideologically motivated vandals, this amounts to a "hole" in Wikipedia policy...a hole through which Byrgenwulf himself compelled me to step.

Also, I see that KSmrq has inserted his(?) personal bloviations regarding the Hillman Affair on Hillman's Talk page. I have requested (on KSmrq's own Talk page) that he stay out of the discussion. It might help if at some point, you were to point out that declarations of partiality, shows of solidarity, slant-edited conversations, and outright counterfactual nonsense are irrelevant to the negotiations and should be posted elsewhere. This will obviate any need for a personal response from me on Hillman's Talk page. Thanks, Asmodeus 16:09, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, there is a good way to resolve that kind of problem. Wikipedia is not built on the contributions of experts on the sole authority of their expertise, but rather on the basis of verifiable information from reliable sources, especially non-primary sources. However, you are to cease disparaging your fellow editors. Those are personal attacks, and are a form of incivility, for which you may be blocked if you continue. This behavior from you is not in the past: just yesterday, you called an editor an "intellectually incompetent, ethically unconstrained newbie." That's just plain unacceptable. Steer your discussions towards content and policy, not towards the contributors. Mangojuice^talk 16:57, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Response Pardon me, Mangojuice, but with all due respect, that is not a viable solution to the problem I cited. There are no verifiable sources on users like Byrgenwulf, who attacked a Wikipedia article without any verifiable sources of his own, but nevertheless prevailed because he knowingly misrepresented the topic of that article and actively solicited votes on that basis. These are clear violations of Wikipedia policy and guidelines about which a couple of your fellow administrators did precisely nothing, and at this point, they are all a matter of record...although some of those records may no longer exist on this site (as opposed to my desktop), precisely because the attack succeeded (despite the fact that a large number of verifiable, big-name, large-circulation secondary sources - e.g., ABC, the BBC, and Popular Science - were duly presented by those trying to defend the article).

If I may be so bold: would it hurt to try to do your job in a more neutral way, without appearing to take the sides of people who have spectacularly violated the rules and guidelines of Wikipedia and thereby damaged both it and its content? And instead of threatening those with whom you converse, wouldn't it be better to calmly give them your informed, impartial advice? That way, they will be more likely to take your advice in the helpful, constructive spirit which you no doubt intend. I understand that you are an administrator, but in all honesty, I can't help but find your imperious tone a bit offputting. (Also: since I refrained from identifying the "intellectually incompetent, ethically unconstrained newbie" by name, are you quite sure that this constitutes a violation of civility guidelines? After all, I could have been referring to practically anyone.)

That being said, thank you very much for your advice (which I do appreciate and will try to follow), and have a nice day. Asmodeus 18:01, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I apologize, I had not looked into your situation fully enough. Now I have. I stand by my warning. I'm familiar with pseudoscience-slander issues (see Eric Lerner and its talk page) and I'm sympathetic to the situation. You have had a rough time on Wikipedia, I can tell. However, that doesn't excuse rude behavior. To respond to some specific points, I do think that referring back to WP policy can help in an editing dispute, like yours with Byrgenwulf was initially, but once it escalated to an AfD, things become much dicier, so perhaps my advice wouldn't have done much good. I'd like to note that I feel a block of you would be totally justified at this point, but your attacks have been subtle and you haven't been warned about them much, so I felt it would be better to warn you. Ok, look, here's the problem. Civility is a central policy of Wikipedia. Your disparaging comments have been subtle, sarcastic, and witty, but still directly insulting to other users. It's clear you're involved in a conflict here, but name-calling is absolutely unhelpful: it doesn't resolve anything, and it just draws those you're in conflict with back into the fight. Let's take your user page, for instance. Some of what you write there is perfectly understandable and a reasonable way to describe a disagreement you have with the philosophy and behavior of some users. If they read it, they might start to understand where you're coming from. But then, you call them apes, and you link "APE" to a wide variety of monkey articles, just to make it crystal clear that the acronym isn't a mistake. What you are doing is called trolling. You have legitimate points in all of your disputes, but stick to your legitimate points and stop trying to insult everyone you don't like. Do not pretend that you have been civil enough to meet this policy: you really haven't. Some of your comments may not quite be personal attacks, but your incivility cannot be questioned. For instance: you asked whether not identifying the user you were saying was "intellectually incompetent" meant you weren't violating the guidelines. Yes, you absolutely were. You might not have made a direct personal attack, but you were being directly disparaging, and hence, your behavior was inappropriate. As a matter of fact, your behavior was way over the line. Shape up, or you'll be blocked. Mangojuice^talk 21:09, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Response: Points well taken, Mangojuice...although I rather suspect that you may not have understood a couple of the points that I was trying to make. For example, we have the "shape up" turn of speech, which again is a bit off-putting. But in the interests of civility, and because you're being so...understanding...I'll move on.

As an example of what I'm up against here, let's have a look at Byrgenwulf's last post on this page. Now, you just read me the riot act, right? I've been a bit too witty and a bit too subtle, and you're not having any more of it. But if I'm not mistaken, Byrgenwulf's last post meets your stated criteria for incivility in spades. Look at it closely. Take an especially close look at phrasing like "or (you) are unable to grasp the meaning of the very simple English words I used" ... "your own misplaced pompousness and undeserved arrogance" ... "you're bitter that I am not taken in by Langan's little theory, and that I brought it to the attention of other people who found it similarly ridiculous" (don't forget that Byrgenwulf has accused me of being Langan, and probably believes that accusation) ... "the Wikipedia community does not wish to be the blog of every crackpot with a piece of metatwaddle they wish to inflict upon the world" ... "the tawdry and lurid nature of the rags in which it was printed" ... "your puerile invective and cheap sarcasm", and so on ad nauseam.

Now, here's my problem: this sort of wording is absolutely characteristic of Byrgenwulf's style. And yet, Byrgenwulf has not been warned about his own glaring and unregenerate incivility...not even once. Similarly, Byrgenwulf was caught red-handed misrepresenting the topic of a Wikipedia article and soliciting AfD and DR votes on that basis, twice in close succession; yet, in violation of proper procedure here at Wikipedia, the closing administrators allowed him to carry the day (twice).

You sound like a fairly intelligent person, Mangojuice. So perhaps you understand how very unlikely this is to be accidental. Indeed, at this point, it really can't be chalked up to accident; you might as well take a quarter out of your pocket and try to flip twenty tails in a row. It definitely, without a doubt, speaks to the particular kind of adminstrator who has taken an interest in the CTMU case and its various sequelae, and unless I'm badly mistaken, it says nothing particularly complimentary about the overall fairness and neutrality of administrative processes here at Wikipedia.

This is honestly the way I see it. If you disagree, then may I hear why? On the other hand, if you agree, then what should I do about it? Should I open official complaints against those administrators who have warned and/or blocked me on minor provocation while letting others get away with murder, comparatively speaking? How, exactly, should I do that? I'm not trying to be difficult here - I'm just asking for your fair, neutral, well-considered advice as a trusted Wikipedia administrator. Thanks, Asmodeus 22:06, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I can understand you feeling frustrated about the AfD and DRV. I can say, though, that too much attention from the article's supporters seems to have damaged both those debates. I've seen it happen before: editors that support the article but aren't super-clear on Wikipedia policy can end up going on long rants and extended discussions with other users over ground that could be covered pretty simply, but then the length of the debate, and the fact that a small group of users is being especially vocal, draws negative attention to their side of the debate. As to what to do about it, my main piece of advice is to let it be for a while; there's a hot conflict here and it needs to cool off before things can progress. In the meantime, read the policies and guidelines over as much as you can, and look through deletion debates on other articles to get a sense for how those policies are applied. Then, when the time is right, start a deletion review with the aim of writing a new article, and keep a level head and base your arguments on policy, and be civil (it really helps: a lot of people will feel they can't take the side of someone they don't like.) Accept that the outcome you want may not come about, if that is the will of the community (the debate will better reflect the will of the community if it doesn't get heated.) As for users you have a dispute with, we have several forms of dispute resolution, including for interactions with admins. Mangojuice^talk 05:07, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Response: Thank you for your well-considered response.

As I see it, the problem with another Deletion Review is that the original jury was artificially selected in a skewed manner, and is sufficiently militant that it is likely to swarm any further review with similar ill intent (while it's true that the supporters of the CTMU article were rather vocal, bear in mind that they were also outnumbered 10 to 1 by people with negative attitudes toward the article). The only way to properly hold another such review would be to exclude the members of WikiProject Pseudoscience, to whom the article and its topic were originally misrepresented, and - dare I say it? - none of whom appear, to me at least, to understand or respect the logical and disciplinary distinctions between levels of discourse bearing on the nature of reality.

Unfortunately, I see no clear way to effect such an exclusion. It therefore seems to me that the only way for the article to be treated fairly would be to reverse the original AfD/DR on grounds of misrepresentation and solicitation, which clearly did occur. In a political system where clear violations of the rules are grounds to overturn any decision at any point, this would probably be much easier to accomplish. But here at Wikipedia, mob action has a kind of sanctity, a more privileged status than any mere set of rules, and irreversible miscarriages of justice must inevitably occur. Such injustices will ultimately result - indeed, have probably already resulted - in a significant loss of encyclopedic integrity.

In short, while the Wikipedia system is good in some ways, it is bad, some might say execrable, in others. The Will of the Mob can become written in stone, a permanent testament to vindictiveness and irrationality. Try as I might, I really don't see how to paint a smileyface on this. Wikipedia will either have to change, or it will have to suffer. Meanwhile, if you have any further suggestions, please don't hesitate to share them - they would certainly be appreciated. Thanks again, Asmodeus 15:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As a matter of fact, Asmodeus, I am somewhat of a "qualified authority" (as you put it, although I am not actually so pompous as to term myself an "authority"), and am more qualified than Langan, should you wish to make a fuss of that; I am also a member of a professional society (areal professional society, not a "let's pretend" club like the ISCID), which can be established by anyone with access to their membership directory. Not that it matters for these purposes, but since my own competence to comment has been questioned, I see fit to address it.

So there was no dishonesty or falsehood in what I said. And nor have I said anything which evinces "technical incompetence" or downright ignorance about the milieu in which the CTMU allegedly resides. Simply because I have refused to indulge in facile arguments about the theory here, thus leaving unanswered your floundering attempts at defending it in the AfD etc., does not mean that I do not see through it. On the contrary: some things are just so plain wrong it is a waste of time to try to explain them to an unwilling and embarassingly arrogant pupil from first principles.

I also object to the oblique intimation that I am a "vandal", in your comment above. And many others, which have gone unremarked, because I hate being petty and refuse to sink to your level of behaviour.

Stop your massive campaign to assassinate my character. Now. Byrgenwulf 17:55, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Byrgenwulf. First, please try to refrain from giving orders - that isn't your place around here. Secondly, if you want to be taken seriously as a "qualified authority" with all kinds of important club memberships, you should probably toot your horn elsewhere than on my Talk page - I already have my own well-informed opinion regarding your personal claims of ability and expertise. Now have a nice day. Asmodeus 18:27, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Asmodeus. Let me spell this out for you very simply and clearly, so that you can understand, since you didn't seem to get the gist of what I wrote above. First. I have no imminent need to be "taken seriously as a qualified authority". Which I said above, but you, of course, conveniently chose to ignore it (or are unable to grasp the meaning of the very simple English words I used). Next. It was you who raised concerns about me, based on nothing but your own misplaced pompousness and undeserved arrogance. Or maybe it's because you're bitter that I am not taken in by Langan's little "theory", and that I brought it to the attention of other people who found it similarly ridiculous, and frustrated that the Wikipedia community does not wish to be the blog of every crackpot with a piece of metatwaddle they wish to inflict upon the world; at least, not as long as the article is forcibly prevented from being edited to a neutral, balanced and sane level of content, with complexity and reverence proportional to the tawdry and lurid nature of the rags in which it was printed.

Finally, you are entitled to your "well-informed" opinions. I can assure you I have many well-informed opinions of you, your competence, your character, your intelligence, and even your sanity, but I am doing you the courtesy of not exposing you to them, since you are bound to be offended. I think it is only fair that you do the same, especially since no-one except possibly for DrL would appear to have any desire to be exposed to your puerile invective and cheap sarcasm, whether or not is targeted at them. Now have a nice day. Byrgenwulf 21:03, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please be civil and calm down. --David Mestel^(Talk) 07:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It would be helpful if, while I'm advocating for you, you could refrain from leaving comments on other users' talk pages or Hillman's talk page expressing your frank opinion on their conduct, as it is counterproductive to our case. Thanks. --David Mestel^(Talk) 07:10, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop speculating about Hillman's RL identity and otherwise verbally assualting him - it really doesn't help any. It would be helpful if you would let me conduct the negotiations on my own. --David Mestel^(Talk) 06:47, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Response: Hi, David. Please note that I haven't speculated about User Hillman's RL identity, or possible concealment thereof, in the last several days (even though I question the redundant PhD claims recently posted to Hillman's Talk page). As agreed, I'm trying to give your negotiations a chance. Speaking of which, I note that Hillman is trying to predicate any future concession(s) on a reciprocal concession from me, specifically, that I stop questioning Hillman's Wikipedia identity and pointing to possible conflicts of interest which may have occurred under cover thereof. At such a time as Hillman agrees to refrain from harassing DrL and me, removes all personal information and speculation previously posted about us, and promises to scrupulously avoid possible conflicts of interest where I, DrL, and the Langans are concerned - i.e., to stay away from us, and from any Wikipedia articles about the Langans and their ideas, charitable activities, and projects - then I will be happy to lay aside my questions regarding the Hillman account and ignore Hillman's other activities on this site (even though I may continue to address the conflict-of-interest problem in more general terms, particularly as it relates to Wikipedia policy). Otherwise, I'd prefer that the negotiations remain confined to existing violations of Wikipedia policy regarding the unauthorized disclosure of personal information. Thanks, Asmodeus 14:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going on holiday from today until Saturday 26th August, so please address any inquiries to Steve Caruso in my absence. Thanks, David Mestel^(Talk) 06:01, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

David left a message on my talk page that concerns you. In case my page is not on your watchlist, I am letting you know. Just FYI ... --DrL 19:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hillman has indicated that he is not prepared to continue with negotiations until you have explicitly agreed to the following four conditions:

1. you will not approach admins demanding that he be blocked
2. you will not approach admins seeking to unprotect the protected talk page archive, or his protected user page,
3. you will not seek to alter his user pages,
4. you will abide by any agreement reached and agreed to by you, DrL and Hillman.

If those are acceptable to you, please indicate by posting "I agree" below. Thanks, David Mestel^(Talk) 17:01, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Response: Hello, David. I've been away for the last week and just read your message.

As far as I can tell at the moment, User Hillman's conditions boil down to approximately this:

"I will negotiate with Asmodeus and DrL if and only if they promise in advance that regardless of the outcome, I can do whatever I want to them without fear of resistance or retaliation."

This is unacceptable. In fact, it is insulting. (On the other hand, if this is not the intended meaning, then I request clarification.)

As you know, Wikipedia editors are required to abide by Wikipedia policy regarding the unauthorized disclosure of personal information. This is non-negotiable. No one who reserves the right to violate the core policies of Wikipedia can possibly be acting in good faith, and without good faith, negotiation is futile.

Pending the resolution of this matter, I would like to make it clear that I am running out of patience, and that should any further attacks be launched against me or DrL, negotiation will be out of the question. Thanks, Asmodeus 04:48, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, no, what he's saying is that he won't negotiate unless you agree that unless and until the negotiations break down, you will not take further action against him, and that you will abide by any agreement reached and agreed to by you and DrL. David Mestel^(Talk) 06:54, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, as long as it is understood that everything except further violations of Wikipedia core policy hinges on the negotiations. (Were DrL and I to agree to the above conditions 1-4 without this explicit qualification, we would simply be handing unconditional victory to User Hillman. While you might believe that this qualification was implicit and should have been taken for granted, DrL and I have learned the hard way not to take anything for granted around here, particularly when it comes to the interpretation and application of rules.) In return for this concession, we expect Hillman to add no provocative material to their/his/her user pages while the negotiations are in progress, including encouragement for the provocations of others. Please make sure that User Hillman understands and agrees to this. Asmodeus 15:43, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is courteous, I think, to inform you that there is a Request for Comment open on your behaviour. You can comment, here. Byrgenwulf 17:08, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]