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The discussion on the talk page has entered the tl;dr territory. I made already as a diligent work as I could (I am not an expert on this) and explained my edits. So whatever. I would rather do something else. Happy editing, My very best wishes (talk) 21:33, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry if my contributions are not concise enough. I don't want to frustrate you - I'm sure you're contributing in good faith. If you'd rather I stepped back from that page for a few weeks, I will, and we can see how the discussion ends up. Samuelshraga (talk) 18:41, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK, fair enough. I did check what is happening on talk and felt that my involvement would be helpful. Speaking on the archive, I do not mind checking certain things there [1], but the WP:PRIMARY and WP:SPS do apply to such sources. My very best wishes (talk) 20:21, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was originally minded to let content from the archive in, but I now think that using it at all would invariably be Original Research. Just as a note about the edit you linked to, the archive isn't detailing at all Cohen's attempt to stop publication in Russia. Everything I've seen in the archive has come after publication was already stopped in Russia, and Cohen et. al. just want to embarrass Figes after the fact by exposing the reasons why.
Anyway, my offer to step back stands, let me know if you'd rather I take a break from this page for a while. For my part, I am happy to collaborate even when we disagree. Samuelshraga (talk) 21:05, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking on this diff, the first phrase is my interpretation and should not appear in the article, but the direct quotation from the letter by Arseny RoginskytoStephen F. Cohen could be cited on the page per WP:PRIMARY. It does not mean it must appear on the page, it well could be "undue", but it can. My very best wishes (talk) 23:25, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was curious because I read the book and think it was well written and interesting. Yes, he was retelling and summarizing the stories, and who cares if they were true in every minor detail? Yes, the archive is mostly an email correspondence that shows Cohen and some others (not OF) in a very negative light. Does not belong to WP of course.My very best wishes (talk) 03:55, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. Some letters in this archive were entertaining. Page 99. Roginski: "The only thing I am absolutely sure about is that there was no any Kremlin's conspiracy against OF in this story". And he is writing this in a letter to the guy who is a Kremlin's agent of influence and did everything he could to discredit OF. This is classic. As Stanislav Lunev said, "the best spy will be everyone's best friend, not a shadowy figure in the corner." My very best wishes (talk) 17:07, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, I do not know why this book was not published in Russia, even after looking at this archive. This can be only a guess. If anyone on the "top" in Russia did not like the book (yes, it is offensive for typical former KGB people who rule Russia) and wanted to have it cancelled, they had a lot of ways, through the Dynasty, publishers, reviewers, etc. I can only say, based on the letters and publications, that the Dynasty had no intention to make a quality translation, and Cohen was "on the mission", but this could be just his personal bias, who knows. My very best wishes (talk) 18:16, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can see what you mean. I don't know anything about Cohen, but it certainly looks from his WP page like he becomes a Kremlin propaganda flack at some point. I don't know if that had already begun at the time of this correspondence or not - the examples on his page start at around 2014 (maybe around the invasion of Crimea?). Fundamentally, I can easily tell myself two stories about the Whisperers publication in Russia:
1. Whisperers is good work that faithfully reflects the experience of Soviet citizens crushed under Stalinism, that is scurrilously scuppered by the publishers under Kremlin influence, who hate the project. The difficulty here is Memorial's apparent bona fide role in the cancellation, but maybe the fact check was really the exclusive work of Ostrovskaya, and Figes is correct that she hates him, or maybe Ostrovskaya is even a Kremlin plant for this purpose.
2. Whisperers is shoddy work, that falsifies or distorts the stories of individual victims of Stalinism, that the publisher and Memorial cancel because they know that such a book will come under heavy scrutiny in Russia, and they would be dangerously politically exposed if they are careless with this history.
I think either story could be consistent with the contents of the archive, but there's no way that you or I could or should make that judgement on wikipedia. Samuelshraga (talk) 19:24, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, we can not write any version exactly as you did. Version #1 is close except having a piece of OR ("under Kremlin influence, who hate the project"). Plus a few comments. 1. OF was making summaries where some details were not exact, and there were inevitable errors. Does it mean the work was "shoddy"? No, this is just not a pure documentary, but a book that is closely based on real facts and people. The Gulag Archipelago is another example. This is a legitimate genre. It can never be precise in every detail. 2. Roginsky, the head of the Memorial, wrote in his letter (page 98, in bold letters!) "We [Memorial] never were against publishing the Russian translation." He also explains what exactly was the agreement with OF. It does not include any role in evaluation the quality of the work by OF. They were not even suppose to be making any reviews. My very best wishes (talk) 19:57, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't suggesting we include either version in any way! I'm also not saying Figes was shoddy, I'm just saying that this was an accusation repeated in RS. Also, Solzhenitsyn was giving a first person account, so I think it's different. It was Alexander Isayevich's story to tell, however he wished. Samuelshraga (talk) 20:23, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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