→Motion: discretionary sanctions housekeeping: Motion enacted
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→Amendment request: Ayn Rand, Monty Hall problem, Longevity, Cold fusion 2, Tree shaping, Gibraltar: Archived to Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests#Request for amendment regarding topics under discretionary sanctions (November 2014)
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*I'd be more willing to consider a specific request for a specific usecase, but especially as it stands these restrictions are necessary. ''[[User:NativeForeigner|NativeForeigner]]'' <sup>[[User talk:NativeForeigner|Talk]]</sup> 13:16, 29 November 2014 (UTC) |
*I'd be more willing to consider a specific request for a specific usecase, but especially as it stands these restrictions are necessary. ''[[User:NativeForeigner|NativeForeigner]]'' <sup>[[User talk:NativeForeigner|Talk]]</sup> 13:16, 29 November 2014 (UTC) |
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==Amendment request: Ayn Rand, Monty Hall problem, Longevity, Cold fusion 2, Tree shaping, Gibraltar== |
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'''Initiated by ''' [[User:Rich Farmbrough]] '''at''' 19:50, 11 November 2014 (UTC) |
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; Cases affected : |
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:* {{RFARlinks|Ayn Rand}} |
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:* {{RFARlinks|Monty Hall problem}} |
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:* {{RFARlinks|Longevity}} |
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:* {{RFARlinks|Cold fusion 2}} |
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:* {{RFARlinks|Tree shaping}} |
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:* {{RFARlinks|Gibraltar}} |
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; Clauses to which an amendment is requested |
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# Ayn Rand: Remedy 13 |
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# Monty Hall problem: Remedy 5 |
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# Longevity: Remedy 1 |
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# Cold fusion 2: (Remedy 10) |
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# Tree shaping: Remedy 5 |
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# Gibraltar: Remedy 9 |
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===Amendment 1=== |
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* [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Ayn_Rand#Standard_discretionary_sanctions|Ayn Rand: Discretionary sanctions]] |
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* Strike the remedy |
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====Statement by Rich Farmbrough==== |
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This remedy is stale. The only actions in the 3 years are a warning for disruption in 2013 (which could have been made anyway), and, in January, a 1 month topic ban of a dynamic IP account. |
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====Statement by TParis (Ayn Rand)==== |
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There was a severe edit war on [[Ayn Rand]] in October 2013. That's recent enough that I think this restriction is still needed as a reminder and as an enforcement tool for sysops in the area.--v/r - [[User:TParis|T]][[User_talk:TParis|P]] 22:56, 13 November 2014 (UTC) |
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====Statement by EdJohnston==== |
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An IP was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:68.32.136.75 subject of an AE block] in January, 2014 per the outcome of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RRArchive233#User:68.32.136.75_reported_by_User:Dr.K._.28Result:_1_month.29 this WP:AN3 case]. The IP is block evasion by [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Pc1985/Archive]]. Ayn Rand continues to be controversial so I recommend keeping the discretionary sanctions. Until April 2014 there was still a 1RR/week restriction in effect per the DS, but it was lifted. At present there should not be any continuing need for a 1RR. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 05:35, 25 November 2014 (UTC) |
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====Statement by other editor==== |
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{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. |
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Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.} |
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===Amendment 2=== |
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* [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Monty_Hall_problem#Discretionary_sanctions |Monty Hall problem: Discretionary sanctions]] |
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* Strike the remedy |
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====Statement by Rich Farmbrough==== |
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These stale discretionary sanctions have never been used, indeed all the time based sanctions are long expired. |
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====Statement by Ningauble==== |
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Although this remedy has not been "used" in the limited sense that no editors have been sanctioned under its provisions (as far as I know), the log of notifications shows an instance this year where, in my opinion, the fact of the article being under this sort of probationary status ''has been used to good effect''. <p> That said, apart from heading off conduct so egregious that it might be sanctionable sooner or later even without provision for special discretion, I am not sure this remedy, or anything else within the committee's remit as generally understood, can do much to improve a situation that continues to see episodes of unproductive discussion. Standards of conduct and decorum are well and good, but do not prevent dancing round and round in circles without improving this formerly featured article. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 14:42, 16 November 2014 (UTC) |
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====Statement by other editor==== |
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{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. |
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Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.} |
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===Amendment 3=== |
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* [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity#Discretionary_sanctions|Longevity: Discretionary sanctions]] |
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* Strike the remedy |
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====Statement by Rich Farmbrough==== |
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These stale discretionary sanctions have never been used. |
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====Statement by other editor==== |
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{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. |
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Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.} |
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Not evident why discretionary sanctions were threatened years ago. Please strike.--[[User:Wuerzele|Wuerzele]] ([[User talk:Wuerzele|talk]]) 07:32, 17 November 2014 (UTC) |
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===Amendment 4=== |
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* [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Cold_fusion_2#Standard_discretionary_sanctions|Cold fusion 2: Discretionary sanctions]] |
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* Remedy already superseded: however we should update table on {{Tlx|Ds/topics}} |
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====Statement by Rich Farmbrough==== |
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Note that this remedy was never invoked. |
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====Statement by [[User:Robert McClenon]]==== |
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There has been continued disruptive editing, but I agree with [[User:Gaijin42]] that this can rolled up under pseudoscience, as long as it is clear that the intent is only to roll it up, not to strike the remedy. [[User:Robert McClenon|Robert McClenon]] ([[User talk:Robert McClenon|talk]]) 17:50, 17 November 2014 (UTC) |
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====Statement by Gaijin42==== |
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This seems like it would be covered by the pseudoscience case. So sure, nuke this one to clean up some record keeping, but it doesn't really change the editing environment for the article/topic. [[User:Gaijin42|Gaijin42]] ([[User talk:Gaijin42|talk]]) 20:37, 11 November 2014 (UTC) |
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====Statement by Noren==== |
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This topic area was subject to enough disruption to require a full case resulting in its own specific sanctions ''years after the pseudoscience ruling had been put into effect''. This was partly because a number of editors were of the opinion that cold fusion does not fall within the scope of pseudoscience (and the argument on that meta-topic was interminable.) If the current, specific ruling that Cold Fusion is subject to discretionary sanctions goes away, I think that a very clear, citeable statement by Arbcom that this topic is subject to sanctions under the pseudoscience umbrella would be necessary to avoid a repeat of this history. --[[User:Noren|Noren]] ([[User talk:Noren|talk]]) 02:23, 21 November 2014 (UTC) |
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Rich Farmbrough is mistaken that this remedy was never invoked, see for example [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement&oldid=499290655#POVbrigand] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive153#User:84.106.11.117]. It was made more difficult to find these invocations because the name of the case has been retroactively changed and the logging of enforcement has been moved to merge with the older pseudoscience case.--[[User:Noren|Noren]] ([[User talk:Noren|talk]]) 18:16, 21 November 2014 (UTC) |
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====Statement by EdJohnston==== |
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Per a [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment&oldid=523226604#Motion 15 Nov 2012 Arbcom motion], enforcement of Cold Fusion remedies is consolidated with Pseudoscience. This tells admins that problematic editing of Cold Fusion can be processed as though it were an [[WP:ARBPS]] violation. It's fine that enforcement was redirected to another case, but if Cold Fusion is dropped then we will be back to square one whenever CF problems occur. So I agree with Noren's advice about this and would oppose removing the Cold Fusion remedy. To understand what the 2012 motion was trying to do you should read the comments by [[User:T. Canens]] at the bottom of the discussion section, below the votes. It seems that cold fusion and homeopathy were both rolled into pseudoscience. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 05:02, 25 November 2014 (UTC) |
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====Statement by other editor==== |
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{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. |
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Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.} |
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===Amendment 5=== |
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* [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tree_shaping#Discretionary_Sanctions|Tree shaping: Discretionary sanctions]] |
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* Strike remedy. |
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====Statement by Rich Farmbrough==== |
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Note that this remedy was never invoked apart form two warnings in 2011. |
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====Statement by other editor==== |
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{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. |
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Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.} |
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===Amendment 6=== |
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* [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gibraltar#Standard_discretionary_sanctions|Gibraltar: Discretionary sanctions]] |
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* Strike the remedy |
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====Statement by Rich Farmbrough==== |
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This remedy is stale, no action has been taken since 2011. |
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====Statement by Thryduulf==== |
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I issued a 0RR restriction on [[Operation Flavius]] for an editor in February this year. I did this under the [[WP:TROUBLES]] case, but I could equally have used the DS authorised for the Gibraltar topic area instead (the article is about a military action against IRA members on Gibraltar). Obviously if DS had been repealed for Gibraltar then I could still have issued this sanction under The Troubles. I don't remember at this distance whether the focus of this editor was Gibraltar or The Troubles though. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 12:18, 14 November 2014 (UTC) |
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====Statement by other editor==== |
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{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. |
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Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.} |
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===Further discussion=== |
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The proliferation of areas under discretionary sanctions (in addition to other forms of sanction) makes editing Wikipedia both more complex and trouble prone for all editors, but especially new editors. It makes sense to remove obsolete sanctions, and obsolete notices (indeed I removed obsolete notices from 56 of the 136 articles listed under "Community probation" only the other day). |
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None of these areas seem to have been significantly troubled since the case, and certainly not in a way where DS would be required to resolve them. |
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I would hope that none of these requested amendments would be controversial, but if one or more are I would welcome as an alternative, suspension of those sanctions for a year, with a view to striking them. |
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:{{Ping|Timotheus Canens}} I certainly never implied that Pseudo-science sanction should have an exemption for cold fusion. I would be interested to know where you got such an idea. In this case we simply do not need any special note about it, its standing is simply as part of pseudo-science. |
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====Comments by Thryduulf==== |
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I have left a message on the main article talk pages for these topic areas ([[Talk:Ayn Rand]], [[Talk:Monty Hall problem]], [[Talk:Longevity]], [[Talk:Tree shaping]] and [[Talk:Gibraltar]]) advising editors there of this amendment request and asking for any comments about the proposal to be left here. I haven't left messages on any deeper pages (e.g. [[Talk:History of Gibraltar]]) as I don't know how to define the set of which pages have the DS template on that are relevant to these cases, and I'd be here all day if I tried to do that manually. Anyone else is of course free to do so. |
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I suggest waiting a few days to allow for any such comments before actioning (or not) these amendments. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 12:11, 14 November 2014 (UTC) |
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If the cold fusion topic area is removed from the scope of the pseudoscience DS authorisation, then this should be explicitly noted at [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience#Discretionary_sanctions]] as well as on the Cold Fusion 2 case page. I also note that the pseudoscience DS are authorised for "articles" rather than "pages", arbitrators may wish to consider amending that similarly to the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment&oldid=631252824#Motion motion last month]. |
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And, off topic for this request but while I'm here, I asked for clarification of a BASC decision the other day at [[Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Cookiecutteramaru's topic ban]] (where the BASC decision page told me to ask), but this appears to have slipped under the radar. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) |
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===Statement by Carrite=== |
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''This request is such a mess that I don't even know where to put my comment...'' This entire request should be thrown out as out of process. This combines a huge variety of unrelated cases, effectively massing a herd of buffalo, making examination of each individual specimen impractical. For example, I don't think the Gibraltar remedies should be altered or softened at all. What does that have to do with the Monty Hall case? Just toss this entire request and let the proposer start over, one at a time, if there is an actual need for such alterations (which I doubt). [[User:Carrite|Carrite]] ([[User talk:Carrite|talk]]) 15:17, 24 November 2014 (UTC) |
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===Statement by Francis Schonken: premise fundamentally flawed=== |
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I think the premise of this amendment request is fundamentally flawed. Remedies don't necessarily lose value because they're not actively invoked. That's all that has been researched below by Beeblebrox, whether they were actively invoked. I'm not too familiar with any of the ArbCom cases touched by this list of amendment proposals. I'm more familiar with e.g. the two Prem Rawat Arbcom cases: my experience there is that one doesn't have to invoke a remedy explicitly to demonstrate its value. Example, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Prem_Rawat&diff=634563640&oldid=634561630 undoing this edit] part of my edit summary read "...read templates on top of the talk page too, please", referring to the sensitivity of the topic in general, without naming any ArbCom case or remedy in particular. |
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I'm convinced that toning down the remedies has no advantage: when editors behave reasonably with the best interest of the encyclopedia in mind such remedies are not bothering anyone either. |
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At least a possibility to re-instate remedies easily if this proves necessesary needs to be built in in the amendment proposal. |
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Further I want to remark to ArbCom members you'd be sanctioning one of Rich Farmbrough's "mass" operations here, specifically what should still be a red flag, see [[#Amendment request: Rich Farmbrough]] above. --[[User:Francis Schonken|Francis Schonken]] ([[User talk:Francis Schonken|talk]]) 06:21, 25 November 2014 (UTC) |
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===Statement by other editor=== |
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{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. |
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===Clerk notes=== |
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: ''This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).'' |
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===Ayn Rand, Monty Hall problem, Longevity, Cold fusion 2, Tree shaping, Gibraltar: Arbitrator views and discussion=== |
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*I remember (some in more detail than others) the arbitration cases that led to discretionary sanctions being authorized in these areas. Basically, we authorize DS in a topic-area where there has been disruptive editing by several (not just one or two) editors in a topic-area, and there is a likelihood of continued disruptive editing in the future. I accept, without having checked, Rich's statement that these topic-areas have not been edited disruptively for some time. The question then is, is that likely to continue if we lift the DS. In some areas it probably is, if the specific editors who were editing problematically have moved on (and no one has replaced them in that regard), or if the real-world cause of editing disputes on an article has disappeared (although I don't think that would apply here). I would certainly be open to lifting DS on a topic-area if the active editors in the topic-area told us that they thought DS was no longer necessary and was dampening the editing environment. I'm not as sure whether we want to adopt a presumption of "if DS were authorized awhile ago and the topic is calm now, we will lift the DS based on the passage of time as a housekeeping matter." I ask my colleagues who were active in the DS review a couple of months ago if this issue was discussed then and in any event what their thoughts are. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] ([[User talk:Newyorkbrad|talk]]) 04:18, 14 November 2014 (UTC) |
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*The relevant principle was briefly discussed [[Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions/2013 review/Archive 2#Ending discretionary sanctions for a topic|here]] and then added to [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Authorisation]], which now reads {{xt|[w]hen it becomes apparent that discretionary sanctions are no longer necessary for a particular area of conflict, only the committee may rescind the authorisation of them, either at the request of any editor at ARCA or of its own initiative.}} I'd say this is the case here and would support a motion. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em;" class="texhtml"> '''[[User:Salvio giuliano|Salvio]]'''</span> [[User talk:Salvio giuliano|<sup>Let's talk about it!</sup>]] 10:59, 14 November 2014 (UTC) |
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*Generally speaking, if disruptive behavior has settled down in an area and is not likely to resume, I'm in favor of removing discretionary sanctions from them. There are some areas that will probably always remain "hot" and there's little likelihood of that happening, but in these, it looks like things have cooled off quite a lot. We could always leave open the possibility of restoring sanctions by motion if significant disruption resumes. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 17:45, 14 November 2014 (UTC) |
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*I also agree that it is not desirable to have sanctions in place when there have been no recent problems and would likely support motions to remove them from these areas once we have confirmed Rich's findings. (Not saying I don't believe him, it's just best practice to double-check such things). [[User:Beeblebrox|Beeblebrox]] ([[User talk:Beeblebrox|talk]]) 18:57, 16 November 2014 (UTC) |
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*Based on Beeblebrox's [[#Analysis]], I would support a motion to de-authorise discretionary sanctions for these topic areas. [[User:AGK|<font color="black">'''AGK'''</font>]] [[User talk:AGK#top|[•]]] 20:49, 16 November 2014 (UTC) |
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*I would also support such a motion. Thank you Beeblebrox for that analysis. [[User:GorillaWarfare|GorillaWarfare]] <small>[[User talk:GorillaWarfare|(talk)]]</small> 00:26, 17 November 2014 (UTC) |
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*"Pseudoscience and fringe science except cold fusion" as a discretionary sanctions area makes little sense, so I'm opposed to carving out a special exemption for CF. I'm open to a motion lifting the remainder per Beeblebrox's analysis. [[User:Timotheus Canens|T. Canens]] ([[User talk:Timotheus Canens|talk]]) 03:19, 17 November 2014 (UTC) |
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* I concur with my colleagues. Unless someone else beats to me, I'll draft a motion wrapping up he various loose ends on this tomorrow. Thanks to [[u|Rich Farmbrough]] for bringing this to us. And it's good to see the obsolescence provision in the new DS procedure been used properly. [[User:Roger Davies|<span style="color:maroon; font-variant:small-caps">'''Roger Davies'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Roger Davies|''talk'']]</sup> 16:44, 17 November 2014 (UTC) |
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**As per above, Thryduulf has posted about this request on the talkpages of the lead articles in the various topic-areas, to give the editors and admins active in the topics notice that this is being considered. (I thank him for doing so.) We might just want to wait a few more days before voting on a motion to see if we get any further input. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] ([[User talk:Newyorkbrad|talk]]) 16:49, 17 November 2014 (UTC) |
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====Analysis==== |
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I am adding this section for point-by-point analysis of each request, this should help inform how we proceed. [[User:Beeblebrox|Beeblebrox]] ([[User talk:Beeblebrox|talk]]) 19:06, 16 November 2014 (UTC) |
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*'''Ayn Rand''' |
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:Arb enforcement actions |
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::3 users blocked in 2009, 1 in 2013, 1 January of this year |
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::Article placed under 1RR from October 2013 to April this year |
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:Recent article history |
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::On the main article on Rand herself: minor editorial conflicts continue, nothing recent beyond what one would expect in an article on such a polarizing figure, nothing particularly nasty on talk page, seems fairly civil |
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::The articles on objectivism and her novels seem fairly quiet |
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*'''Monty Hall Problem''' |
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:Arb enforcement actions |
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::1 user blocked in 2011, 1IP used by that same user blocked in 2012 |
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:Recent article history |
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::minor editorial disputes continue, there was a recent discussion the talk page last month that turned more personal than it should have, but the article itself is not experiencing serious disruption. |
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*'''Longevity''' |
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:Arb enforcement actions |
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::Numerous warnings handed out right after the case closed n 2011, one user blocked for violating their topic ban, DS appears to have never been invoked |
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:Recent article history |
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::Main article appears free of conflict. No substantive discussion on talk page between announcement of DS in 2011 and a note directing users to this request a few days ago |
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::Checked several related articles, some subject to simple vandalism, no serious editorial disputes |
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*'''Cold fusion 2''' |
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:Arb enforcement actions |
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::Numerous blocks in 2011, all of the same user who was subsequently community banned that same year |
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:'''Please note''' this sanction was already ''Superseded by <span class="plainlinks">[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment&oldid=523226604#Motion motion]</span>, 22:35, 15 November 2012 (UTC)''. See [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience#Discretionary sanctions]]. So the discussion is not whether we should vacate the original sanction but rather whether it should be removed from the umbrella of the pseudoscience DS. |
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::However, there do not appear to be any notes in the enforcement logs that directly relate to cold fusion. |
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:Recent article history |
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::Talk page is quite active (''47 archives!'') but discussion is mostly civil and the article itself is fairly stable and free of major editorial disputes |
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*'''Tree shaping''' |
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:Arb enforcement actions |
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::Three warnings in 2011, no blocks or bans |
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:Recent article history |
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::Pleasantly surprised to see that several users subject to now-expired individual sanctions in the original case having civil, collaborative discussions on talk page, no serious disruption of article content for some time. |
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*'''Gibraltar''' |
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:Arb enforcement actions |
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::Several warnings and individual sanctions applied in 2010-2011, all long since expired |
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::no logged blocks or bans |
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::Note that this is one of the decisions whose wording was modified by the committee last month, though that should not have any impact on the matter in front of us today |
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:Recent article history |
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::Main article and talk page appear free of prolonged, tendentious disputes, nothing beyond what one would expect for any article on a country |
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::The entire history of an oft-disputed territory, broadly construed is an awful lot of material. Checked a sample of related pages and found no significant disruption of content. |
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[[User:Beeblebrox|Beeblebrox]] ([[User talk:Beeblebrox|talk]]) 20:43, 16 November 2014 (UTC) |
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====Motion: discretionary sanctions housekeeping ==== |
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Following a request to amend several prior decisions to terminate discretionary sanctions provisions that may no longer be necessary, |
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# Remedy 14 of the [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Ayn_Rand#Standard_discretionary_sanctions|''Ayn Rand'' case]] is rescinded; |
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# Remedy 5 of the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Monty_Hall_problem#Discretionary_sanctions|''Monty Hall problem'' case]] is rescinded; |
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# Remedy 1 of the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity#Discretionary_sanctions|''Longevity'' case]] is rescinded; |
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# The discretionary sanctions authorised explicitly for the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Cold fusion 2|''Cold fusion 2'']] and the [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Homeopathy|''Homeopathy'']] cases are rescinded. The discretionary sanctions authorised for the [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience#Discretionary_sanctions|''Pseudoscience'']] and [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Fringe science|"Fringe science"]] cases continue to apply. Additionally, Remedy 14 of the [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience|Pseudoscience case]] is amended by replacing the word "articles" with the word "pages" for [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=&oldid=631252824#Motion consistency]; |
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# Remedy 5 of the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tree_shaping#Discretionary_Sanctions|''Tree shaping'' case]] is rescinded; |
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# Remedy 10 of the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gibraltar#Standard_discretionary_sanctions|''Gibraltar'' case]] is rescinded; |
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# Nothing in this motion provides grounds for appeal of remedies or restrictions imposed while discretionary sanctions for the foregoing cases were in force. Such appeals or requests to lift or modify such sanctions may be made under the same terms as any other appeal; |
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# In the event that disruptive editing resumes in any of these topic-areas, a request to consider reinstating discretionary sanctions in that topic-area may be made on the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment|clarifications and amendments]] page. |
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# A record of topics for which discretionary sanctions have been authorised and subsequently terminated is to be established and maintained on the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions|discretionary sanctions main page]]. |
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'''Enacted''' - <b>[[User:Callanecc|Callanecc]]</b> ([[User talk:Callanecc|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Callanecc|contribs]] • [[Special:Log/Callanecc|logs]]) 11:22, 30 November 2014 (UTC) |
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:Support: |
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:# [[User:Roger Davies|<span style="color:maroon; font-variant:small-caps">'''Roger Davies'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Roger Davies|''talk'']]</sup> 18:36, 24 November 2014 (UTC) |
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:#: I've [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArbitration%2FRequests%2FClarification_and_Amendment&diff=635398385&oldid=635390781 copyedited] the motion to bring in the ''Homeopathy'' case, which is in the same position as ''Cold Fusion 2'' and aded a change in wording for the ''Pseudoscience'' remedy ("articles" to "pages") for consistency with everything else. I also made a small change to the preamble. Thanks to Tim for pointing these out. Please revert if you disagree. [[User:Roger Davies|<span style="color:maroon; font-variant:small-caps">'''Roger Davies'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Roger Davies|''talk'']]</sup> 16:56, 25 November 2014 (UTC) |
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:#And thanks for adding point #8, i think that's a fine idea. [[User:Beeblebrox|Beeblebrox]] ([[User talk:Beeblebrox|talk]]) 23:32, 24 November 2014 (UTC) |
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:#: Thanks. It's #9 now, with Brad's changes. [[User:Roger Davies|<span style="color:maroon; font-variant:small-caps">'''Roger Davies'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Roger Davies|''talk'']]</sup> 16:56, 25 November 2014 (UTC) |
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:#Let's get rid of this cruft, it's no longer necessary to prevent disruption. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 23:36, 24 November 2014 (UTC) |
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:# [[User:Carcharoth|Carcharoth]] ([[User talk:Carcharoth|talk]]) 02:00, 25 November 2014 (UTC) |
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:# I have taken the liberty of adding the second sentence of #7, and a new #8 (old #8 becomes #9). Any arbitrator can revert if these changes aren't desired, but if there is consensus for them, I think this is easier than adding another motion. I also made a minor copyedit to #4, and copyedited the introductory clause so it will be independently comprehensible when the motion is posted to the noticeboards. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] ([[User talk:Newyorkbrad|talk]]) 02:29, 25 November 2014 (UTC) |
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:#[[User:AGK|<font color="black">'''AGK'''</font>]] [[User talk:AGK#top|[•]]] 06:19, 25 November 2014 (UTC) |
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:# [[User:Worm That Turned|<span style='text-shadow:0 -1px #DDD,1px 0 #DDD,0 1px #DDD,-1px 0 #DDD; color:#000;'>'''''Worm'''''</span>]]<sup>TT</sup>([[User Talk:Worm That Turned|<font color='#060'>talk</font>]]) 08:21, 25 November 2014 (UTC) |
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:# <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em;" class="texhtml"> '''[[User:Salvio giuliano|Salvio]]'''</span> [[User talk:Salvio giuliano|<sup>Let's talk about it!</sup>]] 09:30, 25 November 2014 (UTC) |
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:# [[User:Timotheus Canens|T. Canens]] ([[User talk:Timotheus Canens|talk]]) 01:14, 26 November 2014 (UTC) |
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:# '''[[User:LFaraone|L]]<font color="darkgreen">[[User talk:LFaraone|Faraone]]</font>''' 23:40, 27 November 2014 (UTC) |
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:# [[User:GorillaWarfare|GorillaWarfare]] <small>[[User talk:GorillaWarfare|(talk)]]</small> 17:47, 28 November 2014 (UTC) |
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:Oppose: |
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:Abstain: |
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== Amendment request: Tea Party movement == |
== Amendment request: Tea Party movement == |
Currently, there are no requests for arbitration.
Open cases
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Recently closed cases (Past cases)
Case name | Closed |
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Venezuelan politics | 25 May 2024 |
Request name | Motions | Case | Posted |
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Amendment request: Rich Farmbrough | none | (orig. case) | 24 November 2014 |
Amendment request: Tea Party movement | none | (orig. case) | 10 November 2014 |
Clarification request and appeal: Discretionary sanctions alerts | none | none | 1 November 2014 |
Clarification request and appeal: Interaction ban | none | none | 30 November 2014 |
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{{subst:Arbitration CA notice|SECTIONTITLE}}
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Initiated by Rich Farmbrough at 02:56, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
Finding 4 cites "letter and spirit of bot policy" (without, of course, quoting the policy) and gives four alleged examples, apparently supported by links.
Taking these in order:
More on item 4 |
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Three of the four examples are clearly within policy. The fourth is within standard usage, and even so I went to great lengths to oblige CBM.
I have attempted to keep this short, so may have omitted something you think important. Please feel free to ask any questions, and I will do my best to answer them. I am happy to answer questions of opinion or fact, or even motivation.
From those Arbitrators who have already commented, I would like to hear one compelling reason that lies about a living person are more acceptable on arbitration pages than on articles. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 15:46, 25 November 2014 (UTC).
{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}
Initiated by Xenophrenic (talk) at 20:34, 10 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The Arbitration Committee imposed upon me a topic ban and a one-way interaction ban on 5 September 2013, with instructions that I may appeal to ArbCom after 6 months. Now that 14 months have passed, I am requesting that the bans be lifted as no longer necessary, and an undue burden. The "Finding of Fact" about me indicates the Arbs perceived some problems with my Talk page interaction with other Wikipedia editors. I "personalized" the discussions by stubbornly demanding that editors substantiate certain negative personal comments about me, even to the point of "edit warring over comments that negatively portray" me, and "thereby further increasing tension" as I repeatedly deleted those comments and replaced them with {{rpa}} templates. I agree that my conduct was substandard. I have since grown thicker skin and changed the way I respond to those situations -- with the best response often being for me to just ignore it and get back to collaborative editing. I apologize to the Arbs, the clerks and the community for their wasted time and energy due to my part in this matter, and extend my assurance that I won't repeat that conduct. With regard to User:Collect, I "engaged in unnecessary mockery" of his use of Cheers by responding with Where everybody knows your name. I've ceased that response as well, but more to the larger point, I have and will continue to refrain from unnecessary mockery of editors. And Collect: Please accept my apology.
In addition to being no longer necessary, these two remedies are becoming increasingly burdensome. I frequently find myself having to play Six Broadly Construed Degrees of Separation whenever I see the words 'Tea' and 'Party' somewhere in an article I wish to edit or discuss. (Example: while typing a question to Newyorkbrad in response to his comment, I discovered he was talking about a lawsuit drafted by a Tea Party activist, so I had to hold my tongue, lest someone twist that into a topic ban violation.) See this discussion for an example of how reasonable people can completely disagree on what is "related to" the Tea Party; there are 1000s of articles linked to Tea Party. It is cumbersome to "not interact with" an editor after they revert your edits and open a Request for Comment(RfC) on those very edits, while still trying to communicate on the Talk page. More examples upon request.
I'm up against the word-limit now, but if there are any reservations about lifting the sanctions, I can strengthen my request by providing details on:
Thank you for your consideration in this matter. I'll leave you with these wise words on I-BANs, with which I happen to agree. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 20:34, 10 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I would be fully unaffected by this amendment, as I have no sanctions extant under the Tea Party Movement case. My appeal to Jimbo has met with absolutely no response, but we are well past the six month mark making this amendment request totally moot. The one way interaction ban should be carefully weighed - I have not interacted with Xenophrenic at any point, and would just as soon have him continued to be constrained. Collect (talk) 11:59, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I am, moreover, aghast that the common use in infoboxes to include degrees received is what his major complaint appears to be. There was, in fact, a discussion on the template page, as I trust he is aware, and he appeared to be in full accord with the solution, so I do not know what his issue with me is here. Collect (talk) 12:07, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note to people who note my belief that 1 way bans should be of specified duration - I still hold that view. I do not understand why my position here that the single 1 way ban should not be abrogated at this point is of any dispute, though I would think that making it for a specified periodasMastCell notes would not be amiss. Cheers. Collect (talk) 19:30, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Xenophrenic I would suggest that a "date certain" to end the iban is in accord with my consistent positions on such bans, and think perhaps setting it at 1 January 2015 would not be unduly burdensome. I further note that I have never had any "enemies list" to stalk or make derogatory comments about on Wikipedia, though I will grant some of your older posts did vex me a tad. Cheers. Collect (talk) 23:07, 11 November 2014 (UTC) {Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}[reply]
My position has always been that 1 way Ibans should have a defined term, at least to the best of my recollection, and the charge of "hypocrisy" is painful. The case presented, however, seeks two distinct and basically unrelated changes to the ArbCom sanctions, thus separating the two seemed to me to be rational. Setting a time certain is rational, but tying it to this request is quite imperfect. One should note that I have, as far as I can tell, been civil to Xenophrenic, and have not made any edits with any intent other than benefitting the project. This would leave the sole issue the actual TPm topic ban, for which I proffer no opinion. Nor did I proffer evidence against any editor in the TPm case, and the "findings" against me were drafted by an Arbitrator using diffs not presented by anyone other than the single arbitrator. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:28, 12 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I brought up the initial clarification before, so I'm commenting to note that, while I haven't had any further encounters with Xenophrenic since then, others certainly have and probably didn't notice that he was under sanction, given that even in the last few months he has edits to sanction-related articles like Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now [5], Efforts to impeach Barack Obama [6], United States House of Representatives v. Obama [7], Van Jones [8], and Alan Grayson [9] (and this is using a fairly narrow standard of "broadly construed." If the topic ban is about keeping him from engaging in incivility on these pages, I'm unaware of any evidence that he's continued that behavior. If the topic ban, however, was to keep him away from Tea Party-related articles, he has very clearly not done so. I have no interest in stalking his edits to keep him in line, but the result of this appeal should really be about the intent of the topic ban, especially as his edits, at first glance, do not appear to be problematic the way other editors' edits were. Thargor Orlando (talk) 13:32, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Collect has previously been very vocal and consistent in his belief that one-way interaction bans are unfair and useless:
In light of Collect's vehement opposition to one-way interaction bans, I find his support for continuing such a ban here puzzling. I'm not sure it has any bearing on whether Xenophrenic's interaction ban should be lifted (it probably should, on a trial basis and on the basis of good behavior, particularly as the 1-way ban allows Collect to revert him with impunity). It's more that, having now spent more than 8 years on Wikipedia, my patience with hypocrisy is pretty much depleted and I find it difficult to ignore. MastCell Talk 19:05, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Initiated by Sandstein at 16:21, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Today, John Vandenberg, an administrator, alerted me about the discretionary sanctions applying to the Eastern Europe topic area, and logged this as a "notification" on the case page, which he later changed to a "warning". Judging by an earlier comment, he did so to register his disapproval of my speedy deletion of an article created by a sock of a banned user. After I removed the alert after having read it, it was immediately reinstated by an anonymous user, 41.223.50.67.
Per WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts the purpose of such alerts is to advise an editor that discretionary sanctions are in force for an area of conflict. I am and have been active as an administrator by issuing discretionary sanctions in this topic area, and am therefore perfectly aware of the existence of these sanctions, as John Vandenberg confirmed he knew. The alert therefore served no procedure-based purpose. This also applies to the unneeded logging on the case page: Unlike earlier notifications, alerts are not logged on a case page because they can be searched for with an edit filter. John Vandenberg knew this because he used the correct alert template as provided for in WP:AC/DS.
It therefore appears that John Vandenberg used the alert procedure and the log entry not to actually inform me about discretionary sanctions, but that he misused the alerts procedure to mark his disapproval of a deletion I made and to deter me from making further admin actions in this area with which he disagrees. That is disruptive because this is not the purpose of alerts, and it is not how admins are expected to communicate with each other about disagreements concerning each other's actions. It is also disruptive because it has had the effect, whether intended or not, to create the incorrect impression in another administrator that I am disqualified from acting as an admin in this topic area because I received this alert.
To the extent the now-"warning" is meant as a sanction in and of itself, it is meritless and disruptive: The speedy deletion I made was compliant with WP:CSD#G5, and does not conflict with the prior AfD because the ban evasion issue was not considered there. Any concerns about this deletion should have been discussed at deletion review.
Per WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts, "any editor who issues alerts disruptively may be sanctioned". Nobody other than the Arbitration Committee is authorized to issue such sanctions. I therefore ask the Committee to clarify that alerts should not be used for any other than their intended purpose, and to take such actions (e.g., issuing a warning) as it deems appropriate to ensure that John Vandenberg will not continue to issue alerts disruptively. By way of appeal of discretionary sanctions, I also ask the Committee to remove the "warning" from the log as being without merit.
Prior to making this request, I discussed the issue with John Vandenberg, but we failed to reach an understanding, and he invited me to submit this matter to this forum for review. Sandstein 16:21, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As concerns the "warning", either it is meant as a discretionary sanction for misconduct (as the warning by me he cites was) and in this case is appealed here as meritless and disruptive, or it is not and has therefore no place in a log under the new procedures. Sandstein 18:30, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This episode indicates, to me, that this whole alerts system is unworkably cludgy and may need to be scrapped if even former arbitrators can't understand it, and that perhaps general clarification is needed that discretionary sanctions and alerts are, shall we we say, not the ideal way to respond to concerns about admin actions - such concerns are normally a matter for the Committee alone. Sandstein 21:51, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
To my mind, Sandstein is obviously 'WP:INVOLVED' in the current DRV about Polandball, however not surprisingly he claims to be uninvolved. To quickly recap, he is the admin who deleted the article at DRV; when notified of the DRV, he decided to issue a DS alert to the person who initiated the DRV, and speedy delete another related article which had survived an AFD and was mentioned on the current DRV. When User:Nick undid the speedy deletion, Sandstein also demanded that Nick redelete it. IMO, this is fairly clear battleground mentality, only including the use of admin buttons for good measure. All quite unnecessary, as a sizable chunk of the community would participate in the DRV, so his voice there would be heard. It is very strange logic that Sandstein felt he had to alert user:Josve05a about discretionary sanctions, but objects to me feeling the same way about his own editing/admining in this topical area. He claims his alert to user:Josve05a was not an admin action (otherwise he would surely run afoul of 'WP:INVOLVED'), but then cant see he is participating as a normal contributor. Maybe he considers a DS alert to be a friendly chat, when he gives one to someone else ...
Anyway, the nature of this clarification is the use of alerts and the logging of them on case pages. Obviously some serious saber rattling would have quickly occurred had I sanctioned Sandstein, so I went with an alert only with a stern message with the hope he could see how others were viewing it. He didnt; he continued to post aggressively. When I found the right DS alert template and posted it, the edit filter notice reminded me to check if he had been notified any time in the last 12 months, and press Save again if I was sure it had not occurred. As I didnt find any prior notices (in edit filter log or on talk page archives), I proceeded to save the alert. I then went to the relevant arbcase to log it as is the usual procedure. I knew DS had been standardised earlier this year, and was pleasantly surprised by the edit filter logging, but it didnt occur to me that alerts would not be logged. The arbcase log for the EE case had all the signs of logging being part of the standard procedure.
Since Sandstein objected to the logging, I went and had a look at other cases and found quite a few examples of the log including notifications and warnings; I did offer to give Sandstein examples of such notices and warnings, but we are here now. Here are the ones that I've quickly found in arbcom case logs since April 2014.
If it is no longer appropriate to log alerts/notices/warnings on the arbcom case, an edit filter should be added to ensure admins are aware of this change. John Vandenberg (chat) 17:50, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've nothing to add to the clarification and amendment section, but I will state, as I have repeatedly said, I'm really getting fed up watching good content be deleted and destroyed as a result of battleground mentality. It genuinely makes me sad watching material that people have put their heart and soul into, being deleted because it was written by this week's bogeyman. Nick (talk) 17:57, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If the DS alert is going to be used without a sting it has to be used for everyone all the time. Its common for editors to know an article is under DS, but this isn't something one can assume. Of course, the use of the alert can been abused and can be seen as threatening. Use that is universal will over time render the warning as commonplace and standard, will de sting. Whether it was used in this instance as an implied threat, I don't know or care. Behind many of the actions I've seen against editors over the years are threats, some so complex as to be almost invisible. I know how that feels, so am not condoning anything that threatens but unless we deal with the surface level of an action and ignore assumption we will never get to supportive editing situations.(Littleolive oil (talk) 19:04, 1 November 2014 (UTC))[reply]
One of the goals of the recent reforms which turned "warnings" to "alerts" was to remove the stigma of the warning/alert. Apparently, that stigma is alive and well. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:57, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Giving a "warning" is an administrative function. Its only purpose is administration of the website. No, a User does not have to have privileges to do much of administration on Wikipedia. The idea is anathema to the community, which expects good users to administer, even to requiring such at RfAdmin, moreover, the website would not function, if users did not step up. So no, giving a warning does not mean one is INVOLVED. Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:40, 2 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
John Vandenberg's actions in this case are wrong on so many levels at once it's hard to know where to start. About his technical misunderstanding of the nature of alerts and the non-logging of "warnings", I think all has been said. More importantly, his warning was wrong on its merits. As for the speedying of Why didn't you invest in Eastern Poland? (the only issue he actually mentioned in the warning), Sandstein was processing a valid G5 speedy; the fact that there had been an earlier "keep" AfD is obviously irrelevant as long as the facts justifying the speedy weren't known and discussed during the AfD. As for Sandstein's actions in the Polandball issue, which seems to be what John Vandenberg is really more concerned about, the claim that he was showing an inadmissable battleground attitude is utter nonsense when you look at his actual, very measured and balanced, comments in that DRV. Finally, the "warning", whether logged or not, was also out of process. A "warning" under DS means that I, an administrator, will hand out a block or topic ban to you, the person I am warning, if you repeat the behaviour I am warning you over. Does John Vandenberg seriously believe he would be entitled to block Sandstein if he did a G5 speedy like this again in the future? That beggars belief. Even if John Vandenberg had legitimate reasons to be concerned over Sandstein's actions, then his recourse would be not to impose "sanctions" on him, but to ask Arbcom to review Sandstein's actions; that, however, is not in any way inside the scope of what the DS are about, and therefore also doesn't belong in the DS logs. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:14, 2 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This request is eerily similar to this one made some time ago, where four editors were given "civility warnings" by Sandstein, apparently at random. The result of the clarification request was a delinking of the four names in the ARBATC case page. If any action other than delinking is recommended for the current situation, it would only be reasonable to revisit the other situation as well. —Neotarf (talk) 02:53, 3 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
On the complaint of JV about Sandstein, my position is that it cannot be heard in this venue. With the procedural confusion clarified (not that there should have been any in the first place), I suggest JV take this complaint up, perhaps with a handful of other administrators, directly with Sandstein. Neither party appears to have made an adequate effort to resolve this together, despite, as administrators, being obliged to do so. Should those attempts prove futile, a proper case request should then be filed. AGK [•] 12:31, 2 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
More to the point, the new system is working. Let us leave it at that. AGK [•] 06:14, 25 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know how to structure this thing, so I'll just lay out a summary here: It has now been close to a year since an interaction ban was imposed between me and The Rambling Man. Likewise between Medeis and The Rambling Man. There have been several breaches of the IBAN as it's defined, but there has been no will to enforce it. So I would like to ask for either an immediate vacate of the IBAN, or at least a finite end to it, for example maybe on the anniversary of when it was imposed. My path almost never crosses TRM's, and when he takes verbal shots at us on the reference desk (which is where all this started in the first place), my usual approach is to ignore it. Medeis and TRM's situation is much touchier, as they both work at the "In The News" page, and several complaints have been lodged about that (with no action taken). So I can't give you any good advice on how to handle that case, that's up to you all. I would just like my own IBAN rescinded (both directions, of course) so that I don't feel like I have a sword hanging over my head. Thank you. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:26, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]