*Thanks, folks. Now let me add one more requirement: person A must have been famous/important enough that the first murder was called an "assassination". Now have there been any other examples? --[[Special:Contributions/142.112.221.43|142.112.221.43]] ([[User talk:142.112.221.43|talk]]) 06:29, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
*Thanks, folks. Now let me add one more requirement: person A must have been famous/important enough that the first murder was called an "assassination". Now have there been any other examples? --[[Special:Contributions/142.112.221.43|142.112.221.43]] ([[User talk:142.112.221.43|talk]]) 06:29, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
*:I had never heard of Sheriff McHargue before, but apparently he was locally famous enough that his murder was called an "assassination" by the press, and the alleged assassins were lynched the next day while in county jail.<sup>[https://papershake.blogspot.com/2014/07/assassination-of-sheriff-mchargue-and.html]</sup> --[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 09:34, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
*:I had never heard of Sheriff McHargue before, but apparently he was locally famous enough that his murder was called an "assassination" by the press, and the alleged assassins were lynched the next day while in county jail.<sup>[https://papershake.blogspot.com/2014/07/assassination-of-sheriff-mchargue-and.html]</sup> --[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 09:34, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
The best answers address the question directly, and back up facts with wikilinks and links to sources. Do not edit others' comments and do not give any medical or legal advice.
I'd think that extrajudicial executions – not counting the intentional killing of an enemy combattant in actual combat, or the use of deadly force to counter a significant threat of death or serious bodily harm – are unlawful, and that inciting to commit such executions is a crime under US law. --Lambiam11:02, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
An actual example from 1899, surprisingly not from the Wild West:
£25 (Twenty-five Pounds stg.) is offered by the Sub-Commission of the fifth division , on behalf of the Special Constable of the said division , to anyone who brings the escaped prisioner of war CHURCHILL dead or alive to this office, For the Sub-Commission of the Fifth Division, (Signed) LODK de HAAS, Sec.[1]
An earlier US example, an advertisemet in the Wilmington (North Carolina) Advertiser seeking a runaway slave in 1838:
Ran away, my negro man Richard. A reward of twenty-five dollars will be paid for his apprehension, DEAD OR ALIVE. Satisfactory proof only required of him being killed. He has with him, in all probability, his wife Eliza. Durant H. Rhodes.
According to this in contrasting rewards during the Malayan Emergency and U.S. terrorism rewards: both the DoD and DOS rewards programs are limited by statute to “nonlethal” assistance. Lambian Not as illegal as might seem[2], but based on a long tradition of common law. Here's a conviction for solicitation of murder, but Offering money for killing rather than capturing a lawbreaker, regardless of the immediate threat posed, is clearly a violation of present Montana laws against solicitation, but in 1927 apparently no one challenged the right of the Montana Bankers Association to offer such blood money[3] There may have been a $2,500 "Dead or Alive" poster for Clyde Barrow[4], and the original suggestion was "Wanted Dead", but can't find if a law enforcement agency offered the reward or printed the poster (if any). fiveby(zero) 14:20, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Dead or alive" could be read "produce them alive, or produce proof that they have died". Either outcome would terminate the search, and if someone has proof of death but does not bother to produce it the unattainable search for a live person may continue, therefore it is worth rewarding proof of death. -- Verbarson talkedits21:33, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's true; in countries without a desert such notion is certainly a command to disbelief in regard with their own conditions. If reports of morbid findings there can be at the initiative of local authorities those reports obviously will not be crossing borders unless attire and belongings of the deceased explicitly appeal for it, and diplomatic ties of course allows accordingly. --Askedonty (talk) 22:41, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I'd think that, too. But in the US, prosecutors have a lot of leeway, and presumably no-one has the balls or the will to stand up to the administration. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:22, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Googling "Fribault Saxony" only gives results connected to Schomburgk; other than that "Fribault" only appears as a surname and there are no hints that Fribault is an actual place or even an alternative name for Freyburg. Given that the town of Freyburg claims Schomburgk as their own, as evidenced by this commemorative plaque, I don't see any good reason to doubt that Freyburg is his actual birthplace. It seems just about imaginable that "Fribault" could be a mishearing of "Freyburg" and there may be a fun story behind that, but that is probably difficult to reconstruct. --Wrongfilter (talk) 07:52, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
[8] The QAnon Shaman was sentenced in November 2021 to 41 months in prison and he is apparently out now, 18 months later. I'm not claiming anything about the politics or whether he did or didn't deserve such a sentence, but I thought all federal prison sentences had to be served at least 80% of the way? So I am wondering how he got out that early. The article about him doesn't say. 2601:644:8501:CF70:0:0:0:7260 (talk) 11:52, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Bureau of Prisons has not commented on the reason for his early release, but noted that recent changes to the First Step Act allows inmates to earn “up to 54 days of good conduct time for each year of the sentence imposed by the court.” Federal and state prison inmates often earn sentence reductions over the course of their time behind bars... Albert Watkins, the attorney who handled Chansley’s plea and sentencing... notes that the plea agreement and sentencing imposed by the court permitted reduced time if Chansley undertook certain programs and behaved well while confined. The early release, he says, is most likely “based on a host of factors routinely taken into consideration by the U.S. Bureau of Prisons.”
I don't know specifics about the USA, but in most of the world, the time spent incarcerated awaiting the outcome of the trial is also counted as prison time. He was arrested in 9 January 2021, so that's 866 days (or one more, if you count both the start date and the end date), 28 months 14 days or 69.4% of the sentence. PiusImpavidus (talk) 19:30, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Definitely the case in the US as well. I'm lazy to dig up a source but you can see various sources like [9] and probably the Time link above (some Time source does but I didn't check it's the above) note he served 27 months not the 18 the OP said. Not sure why it's different from your 28 but one guess is you counted the time he spent on a halfway house at the time if his release. Or perhaps it's more complicated e.g. If he had day release leading up to his full release maybe only part of the day is counted. Nil Einne (talk) 19:19, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Actually I was mistaken about Time, I simply looked a the Google snippet but the 27 months thing related to the time since the riots to the story, not how long he spent.
But reading the Politico careful, I do think they were referring only to the time he spent in prison or jail and not including the time he would spend in the "residential reentry management" although as I understand it the 25 May date he was released from this is correctly counted as the day he is released from custody since the halfway house is still considered part of federal custody.
And having looked into this a bit more, I don't think there are any complications about any day release etc programmes (if he was in them, I have no idea) although calculating time served can get very complicated [10][11][12][13][14]. But most of this seems to arise from issues like time spent in in non federal detention as well as when there are multiple charges and sentences, especially if a person is charged for one thing then later charged for something else. Other than that, there are only obvious exclusions e.g. for someone who is released or escapes, and also anyone held for civil contempt.
(There is also the complication of credit for good conduct etc. This existed before the above mentioned First Step Act but has been improved by it [15] since 54 days is now usually 54 days, although irrelevant since he was well after First Step. But in any case, this will relate to why he only spent those 27+ months but not why it was 27+ instead of 28+.)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I recently read a newspaper report that a judge sentenced a defendant convicted of serious crime to so many years and an arbitrary number of days (whatever it was). I pondered over this for a few minutes before concluding that he had probably decided on a sentence of a round number of years and subtracted from it the time spent in custody, so that he actually would serve that number of years, but wouldn't that in fact reduce the term because time spent in custody is automatically deducted? Many years ago a newspaper reported that a magistrate had sentenced a defendant to a certain number of days before adding "and as this is the number of days you have been in custody you are free to go." In this country, given prison overcrowding, it is routine to release prisoners after they have served half their sentence. 2A02:C7C:38C1:3600:ACCF:3F82:63F1:1958 (talk) 10:47, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Several non-English, non-French Wikipedias use File:Azure semé-de-lys or.svg as the coat of arms of Mr. VIII. That file is named "semé-de-lys", but it is not semé-de-lys, it depicts just two fleurs-de-lis in pale at the bottom of a big blank blue shield. So, what were his arms? Did he bear just two lis flowers at the bottom of an empty blue field, like in the image, in which case I'll request the file be renamed on Commons? Or were his arms semé-de-lys, like the title of the image and like the arms of the Kings of France Ancien, in which case the wikis using the two-lis image need to be updated? -sche (talk) 18:02, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A number of sources about the exiled Indian revolutionaries in 1920 mentions that the 'India House' in Tashkent was located on 'Lavmentev Road'. The house was supposedly located on the verge of the old and new Tashkent. But I find zero mentions of 'Lavmentev' road in Tashkent, in fact I see no hits for 'Lavmentev' neither in English or Russian except for when talking about the India House. This must be a typo that has been reproduced. But what was the real street name? -- Soman (talk) 15:57, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Now our article Tashkent mentions that "A cantonment and Russian settlement were built across the Ankhor Canal from the old city" so that may give us a clew as to the location of "Lavmentev" Road. If only we had a contemporary map of the city. DuncanHill (talk) 10:45, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Indian Freedom Fighters in Tashkent (1918-1922) by Dilorom Karomat (2020) (which has the Ivanov mention) has a photograph of "Party club and committee in the Old city of Tashkent 1920s". Whether or not this is the Indiyskiy Dom I could not say. The buildings in the picture do have signs on them, which it is possible someone may be able to read. DuncanHill (talk) 10:54, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A FB post says "Там, где киоски и стоит фургон - это улица Шипкинская -Почтовая - Алексея Толстого. Мы спускались по Лермонтовской (именно спускались, там был спкск от Пушкинской). Попадали на перекрёсток -типа площадки. Туда『вливались』Бородинская, Лермонтовская и Алексея Толстого. Затем шли мимо этих киосков (там иногда покупали кислое молоко) к молочному павильону. Одноклассницы жили слева и справа от павильона. Первой от Бородинской была забегаловка - пивнушка." Pushkin Avenue is now Mustaliq Avenure [ru]. Tolstoy street would have become Oloy ko'chasi in 2010, but can't find it in google maps but per goldenpages its in the Mirzo-Ulug'bek (which would be near Mustaliq Av.). Borodin Street per goldenpages now Xalqobod ko'chasi, in Unusobod sector (just north of Mizro Ulubeg). --Soman (talk) 13:48, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
By comparison with Google's contemporary map, Лермонтовская Улица seems to be the street where here a branch of Trustbank is pinned. No street name is shown. Yandex gives the address of a house on the street as "Oloy dahasi, 17",[18] which does not appear to name a street but more "building #17 in Oloy". Buildings in other nearby streets are also "Oloy dahasi, #". --Lambiam18:46, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I figure that because many unaccompanied black people were frequently asked to show their pass. Also there was typically a large award for any fugitive slaves, so people were enthusiastic about searching for them. So if they were albinos, they could probably escape without anyone feeling suspicious. 95.144.204.68 (talk) 21:47, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You are getting the wrong impression. What I mean't to say was that it was difficult for albino slaves to escape because of their black facial features. They could only escape if they were multiracial, meaning that they wouldn't have much black features. 95.144.204.68 (talk) 16:15, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Clarityfiend -- It's discussed briefly at Slave patrol. In many cases in the antebellum South, a slave found outside his or her owner's property without having a suitable "pass" document to show to patrollers, indicating permission to travel a brief distance, was automatically in trouble. AnonMoos (talk) 17:00, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Many slave codes (including e.g. the 1680 Virginia Act X, "An act for preventing Negroes Insurrections") include the requirement for slaves to carry passbooks or certificates if away from their plantation or city. From Act X: "[...] it shall not be lawfull for any negroe or other slave to [carry weapons], nor to goe or depart from of his masters ground without a certificate from his master, mistris or overseer, and such permission not to be granted but upon perticuler and necessary occasions;". --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:29, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Looking black" was not a requirement for enslavement - indeed, not even legally being black if born to an enslaved mother (see Partus sequitur ventrem). Visitors at Jefferson'sMonticello commented on how some of the young servant slaves (presumably Jefferson's children by Sally Hemings, and hence octoroons) looked just like him - and indeed, several of them and their descendants later passed for white. They were still legally enslaved (unless or until formally manumitted). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:34, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not before the Civil War, but see Truevine, the true story of two African-American albino brothers, who were abducted as children in 1899 for display at a circus and were held captive and unpaid for decades. Alansplodge (talk) 15:52, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Stephan_Schulz -- According to the traditional American One-drop rule, anyone with a known Black ancestor is considered Black themselves. It wasn't always the law in that extreme form, but it was a well-known cultural presumption. In the U.S. North in the 1850s, many anti-slavery types predicted that white slavery would soon be on the agenda of Southern "fire-eaters" (pro-slavery extremists), and George Fitzhugh notoriously argued for it, but it wasn't legally recognized by the time the Civil War started... AnonMoos (talk) 17:00, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, my first draft of the text referenced the one-drop rule, but I checked that article, and while it may have been a cultural construct much longer, it only came into law in some US states in the early 20th century - i.e. long after the abolition of slavery. At Jefferson's time, most states considered people with less than 1/8th black ancestry white, and Virginia even people with less than 1/4th black ancestry. But they would still be slaves if born to a slave mother, per the concept I referenced above. In practice, people who looked "white enough", behaved accordingly, and had the means for an independent lifestyle were probably unlikely to be questioned unless specifically searched for. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:40, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wine industry questions.
Vast majority of the most expensive wines come from red grapes, how do the most expensive wines that come from green and dark blue grapes compare? It seems the top 5 most expensive wines all come from red grapes.
Many red wines claim to be from red grapes such as Shiroz and Pinot Noir, but upon looking at their articles, they all look dark blue color. Who classifies them as red grapes? To me, I would classify them as dark blue grapes.
I also hear grapes used as table grapes are different varieties than grapes used as wine, how sizeable is the overlap? I hear Muscat is the most common grape variety used for both table grapes and wine. Thanks. 170.76.231.162 (talk) 20:29, 5 June 2023 (UTC).[reply]
The price of wine depends on how expert tasters rate the bottled wine, not the original grape colour. First-rate sweet white wines such as Chateau d'Yquem (from green grapes) can fetch absurdly high prices. Our article Wine color doesn't really address your question. According to this web page Wine 101: The Color of Wine and Where Did It Come From?, there are only two colours of wine grapes, black and green. "By black, we mean red." The term covers a number of pigments, and it doesn't matter too much what colour the grape is, it's often the terroir, the exact nature of the soil in the vineyard, the climate, and then the wine-making process itself that makes the difference. Our List of grape varieties may answer your third query. MinorProphet (talk) 02:24, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I read this some years ago in the newspaper, but it will take some effort to track it down... Many grape varieties are, according to modern DNA analysis, very closely related. Some are in fact clones, differing only due to 2000 years of random mutations. Logical that the exact variety of grape usually matters less than the soil or climate where it grows – which is indeed more clearly marked on the label, at least for wines from the traditional wine countries. PiusImpavidus (talk) 17:52, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Many wise things have already been said above. One additional effect is that many red wines, being rich in tannin, mature slower and have their peak later. Thus, they become more expensive simply because they require more attention and storage to bring to the table at the right time. You won't usually find 10 year old white wines, while 10 year old reds is not unusual at all. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:41, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
On the question of wine grapes vs. table grapes, there are wines made of Thompson Seedless grapes (it isn't all that bad), and in wine country you can sometimes find wine grapes in the market. I've tried Cabernet (not further identified), and it was pretty tart. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 17:47, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pt used to be more expensive than gold in the 1990s and 2000s, but since 2015, gold has since been worth more. I'm not gonna ask why was there a big drop in Pt prices in 2009, because it had an unexpected rise too. But after 2015, Pt prices has been slightly dropping and remaining constant while gold continues to rise, what caused platinum to change? And what does the automobile industry have to do with it. EV batteries don't seem to require platinum, as catalytic convert thefts have been on the rise since 2020. In any event, does anyone think platinum will be worth more than gold some day? 170.76.231.162 (talk) 20:33, 5 June 2023 (UTC).[reply]
Why didn't other juice companies turn co-op in 1940s besides Welch?
By 1945, in order to circumvent wartime restrictions on corporate profits and price controls, Welch's (the company that later bought Welch's, National Grape) turned into a co-op. The new organization would not only be immune from federal corporation taxes and pricing dictates, but would also guarantee his processing company a reliable supply of grapes.
^ So those were advantages for corporations to turn co-op. Why didn't other juice companies like Dole and Tropicana turn co-op? They still stayed as corporation. Heh. 170.76.231.162 (talk) 20:43, 5 June 2023 (UTC).[reply]
According to Welch's, it did not get sold to the co-op until 1956. Nothing in the article mentions that was due to government regulations. Do you have more information on that? RudolfRed (talk) 02:01, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Whoops, I meant the company that bought Welch's, and turned it into a co-op with them. National Grapes, Wikipedia doesn't have an article on them, and they used to have a website. So yes Jack Kaplan turned National Grapes into co-op, who later bought Welch's. 170.76.231.162 (talk) 16:57, 6 June 2023 (UTC).[reply]
When you have car makes and models, like Nissan Altima. Has a car make ever discontinued a model, and then years later, revived it, but under a different name? 170.76.231.162 (talk) 21:47, 5 June 2023 (UTC).[reply]
I don't believe so; the closest that comes to mind is the Audi 80, introduced in Germany in 1966; "years later" it was introduced to the US under the name Audi Fox; however, it was not discontinued in the interim. 136.54.99.98 (talk) 06:00, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that car styles can change drastically over 10 years. So, the exact car won't come back as a decade old car design simply won't come back. But, the concepts can return. Consider this example: The Dodge Custom 880. It was primarily a full-size sedan, but it had a station wagon variant. That was a 60s model. It died out in the 70s as large cars were abandoned. Jump decades into the future. Chrysler owns Dodge. Chrysler has the Chrysler 300 full-size sedan. Under their Dodge brand, they release a station wagon version of the Chrysler 300, the Dodge Magnum. So, the Dodge Custom 880 wagon (a wagon version of the sedan) is released much later as the Magnum (a wagon version of the sedan). It can also be noted that in between those, Dodge used the "Magnum" name for a completely different style of car. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 10:50, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I feel that isn't an accurate answer. The name "Beetle" is a common nickname. It is common in English and German (kafer). In French, it was commonly called a ladybug (cocinelle). In Central America, after the factories were opened in Mexico, they were commonly called bellybuttons (ombligo) because everybody has one. Through all of those nicknames, it was still called the Type 1 and it didn't go out of production. When the original factories closed, they were assembled in Mexico and Brazil to continue production until at least 2000. When Volkswagon released the new Beetle in the 90s, it wasn't a continuation. It was a new car using the nickname of the old car. But, if we allow that production in Mexico and Brazil was not official enough to count and that the new Beetle is a true revival of the old car, then we can say that the Type 1 was revived 10+ years later as a Beetle. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 12:25, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Some car makers sell the tooling for obsolete models to less-developed countries. An example is the Fiat 124, which was reincarnated in Russia by Lada as the woeful VAZ-2101, the subject of numerous schoolboy jokes in the UK ("Why do Ladas have heated rear windows? So that your hands don't get cold while you're pushing them!") Also the Hillman Hunter, which reappeared as the Paykan in Iran. Alansplodge (talk) 16:16, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The manager of the office where I worked identified it to visitors by telling them "It's opposite the Skoda showroom." He confided that he hated having to do that. It was apparently a race to the bottom between Lada and Skoda. He used to export Land Rovers, assisted by a Land Rover salesman working on the side. Something went wrong with one deal and the salesman came begging for him to help him out, otherwise he would get the sack (the manager got him off the hook). Some more views:
How do you double the value of a Skoda? - Fill the tank.
How do you double the value of a Skoda? - Chuck a pound into it.
Owner: Can I get a windscreen-wiper for my Lada? - Mechanic: That sounds like a fair swap.
First prize in the raffle is a Lada. Second prize is two Ladas.
What's the difference between a Jehovah's Witness and a Lada? - You can shut the door on a Jehovah's Witness.
Customer: This Lada is no good. I live on a hill. - Dealer: What's the problem? It goes up to 75. - Customer: That's the problem. I live at number 90.
Thinking about the Hillman Hunter, the Sunbeam Rapier appeared in many guises from 1955 to 1976: would you necessarily connect these two? They might as well be completely different cars, only the name connects them. On the other hand, the name of the Royal Enfield Bullet has survived since 1931, and the current model made in India (and re-imported into the UK) has remained essentially unchanged since 1948. Obviously there are some subtle manufacturing differences. MinorProphet (talk) 20:55, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Our article says that the Morgan +4 was initially produced from 1950 to 1969, then revived for another production run from 1985 to 2000, then revived a second time from 2005 to 2020, when it was replaced by the identically-shaped Morgan Plus Four. Card Zero (talk)23:08, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You murmur "Stocking tops and suspenders": I reply, "Leather bonnet straps". And anyway, every owner knows that thanks to a design dating from 70 years ago, 60 mph is the absolute limit, unless you wish to be acquainted with your maker sooner rather than later. MinorProphet (talk) 07:24, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My dad worked at either Morris Motors in Cowley or Pressed Steel (I can't remember which). Cycling to the station in the early morning (I commuted from there to London) he would often come up from behind on his racing bike and disappear into the distance. Cycling was the way to get to the Morris works. That was where the Morris Mini-Minor was made (my dad drove a Mercedes, my mum a Morris Minor). The house numbers jumped by four from our neighbour to us - the missing number was our garage. The motor works closed down but according to Morris Motors "the adjacent Pressed Steel site (now known as Plant Oxford) is owned and operated by BMW, who use it to assemble the new MINI." The works had its own railway siding off the branch line to London via High Wycombe - following Beeching the track was torn up, except for the spur from the main London line, which is still in use as far as I know. There is now another route to London - travelling north from Oxford you eventually arrive at Marylebone. 2A00:23C6:2417:3101:8C:D1CE:6184:B8D8 (talk) 17:27, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
June 6
Why are we scared of skeletons?
Why are we scared of skeletons? I know I was pretty much terrified of them when I was a small child. But why? The average human in these days is very unlikely to ever have seen an actual skeleton. How do we even know what skeletons are and what they look like, in order to be scared of them? And furthermore, what do we think skeletons are going to do to us?
Is this some thing that is pre-programmed in our brain so because of millions of years of evolution, we have learned to be scared of things we have never even actually seen? JIP | Talk21:48, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I take issue with "The average human in these days is very unlikely to ever have seen an actual skeleton." Here in Australia the Science departments of most high schools and probably all universities have skeletons, real ones of animals and good plastic replicas for humans. As a Science teacher it's a great stimulus to have in a classroom. Generates lots of great discussions. I have seen no fear. Is that a cultural thing? HiLo48 (talk) 02:01, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It might be cultural conditioning. Certainly I was somewhat frightened of skeletons as a pre-school child (ca. 1960), long before I'd seen one in a teaching situation. By adulthood I'd lost any fear (though if I met one walking down the street I'd probably feel a frisson) and am fascinated by paleoanthropology. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.221.195.5 (talk) 03:47, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, the first time a person sees a picture of a skeleton, they are scared because the skeleton represents death. How does the person know the skeleton represents death? Even without having explicitly learned it from anywhere? If the person sees a picture of a skeleton at a young enough age, how do they even recognise it as a skeleton? Is it some pre-programmed response that has evolved into our brains? JIP | Talk20:33, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Most pictures are put in perspective and composed and the intent of their author is bound to pass through to you; besides otherwise you might just not remember that picture at all. Besides I think Baseball Bugs is right, beside the most frightening spot which I have in mind in my early memories of scary places - and the lights were low - I figure a fully detailed skeleton, standing, possibly lightly glowing, and it my mind I could swear it was just some foreign unknown thing - much less remarkable than the angle were things could have been starting crawling out from... --Askedonty (talk) 21:41, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is a link to a page about a Turkish online betting website. It appears to have been inserted by some strange mistake, not intentionally as spam. --Lambiam01:35, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am working on a draft of the Ramanathapuram museum palace of 17-18 century, which has a temple too. Hence looking for information, Which temple (pictured above) this might be? Bookku (talk) 11:06, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If it helps for the identification, the accompanying text in the Wesleyan Juvenile Offering reads, "Cape Comorin is the most southern point of India, separated from Ceylon by a narrow strait. The Temple of Ramnad is situated among the mountains on this southern coast."[23] As there are multiple temples in Ramnad (some 200 kilometres (120 mi) away from Cape Comorin!), referring to this one as "the Temple" is strange; apparently, the author of the text did not understand the term Ramnad and assumed it was the name of a deity. I bet the artist who did the "embellishment" also never laid eyes on the building; it seems to be based on either an inadequate verbal description or a very poor sketching. --Lambiam16:12, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Dropshot
Our article on Operation Dropshot says: Dropshot included mission profiles that would have used 300 nuclear bombs and 29,000 high-explosive bombs on 200 targets in 100 cities and towns to wipe out 85 percent of the Soviet Union's industrial potential at a single stroke. Is there a list of those targets? Thank you! 195.62.160.60 (talk) 14:25, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, folks. Now let me add one more requirement: person A must have been famous/important enough that the first murder was called an "assassination". Now have there been any other examples? --142.112.221.43 (talk) 06:29, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I had never heard of Sheriff McHargue before, but apparently he was locally famous enough that his murder was called an "assassination" by the press, and the alleged assassins were lynched the next day while in county jail.[25] --Lambiam09:34, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Over the past few months, I have been coming back again and again to Outer Manchuria. I've concluded that the sense of Outer Manchuria referring specifically to Outer Manchuria as the territories ceded by China to Russia in 1858 and 1860 is a Wikipedia citogenesis from 2004. That is to say: "Outer Manchuria" (referring to the ceded territories) was made up on Wikipedia in 2004. (1) Is that true? Please explain any opinion. (2) There's no second question. I'd just like to have a direct and clear confirmation or disconfirmation on that first question, or, barring that, a clear "maybe". (3) Please go check out and build up the Wikipedia and Wiktionary entries for Outer Manchuria, which I've done work on. I'm coming here because I can't believe what I seem to have discovered, and I'm hoping you will put me in my place. Thanks! --Geographyinitiative (talk) 20:40, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It may be a calque of French Mandchourie extérieure or German äußere Mandschurei, both of which can be found earlier.[26][27] I have not checked, though, to what extent the areas referred to by these uses coincide with the ceded territory. --Lambiam06:30, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
La Mandchourie intérieure avait été sous influence russe jusqu'à la victoire japonaise dans la guerre russo-japonaise (1904/05) qui a amené la région sous influence japonaise. En 1906, le Japon a posé le chemin de fer de Mandchourie du Sud à Port Arthur (Japon: Ryojun). Le chaos qui a suivi la Révolution russe de 1917 a permis au Japon d'étendre temporairement son contrôle à la Mandchourie extérieure, mais la région est revenue sous contrôle soviétique en 1925. La Mandchourie intérieure est passée sous le contrôle du seigneur de guerre chinois Zhang Zuolin pendant la période du seigneur de guerre en Chine.
(Jennifer Guirado 2019 Colonialisme et son Histoire)
L'empire colonial [japonais] comprenait ... et enfin l'espace mandchourien -- en réalité la Mandchourie du Sud puisque la Mandchourie extérieure (au-delà des fleuves Ousseuri et Amour) avait été annexée par la Russie en 1858-1860.
(Pierre Brocheux 2012 Les décolonisations au XXe siècle)
These are post-2004. This one is from 1931: "Nun beschränken sich seine imperialistischen Ziele zunächst auf die Mongolei, die äußere Mandschurei und Ostturkestan."[28] (Google Books only allows one to see the first four words), in which "seine" refers to "das Reich Stalin’s". --Lambiam09:17, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Kwamikagami and Lambiam: Hey, thank you two for looking into this. Kwamikagami, the question is whether this word was made up in 2004 or not, that's the question I want answered. The side question of internet-age usage of the neologism is totally different. My point is that between 1860 and 2004 (144 years), no one called this area Outer Manchuria. Once we figure out the answer to that, then the implications of that fact will flow from it naturally. Just focus right on that specific question. I think it was only the anonymous British IP who created the article that ever called the area Outer Manchuria, and then it's all been citogenesis from there. I will check out all of Kwamikagami's stuff later, but I just want to say that I did a "sniff check" on Lambiam's German sentence from 1931: "Nun beschränken sich seine imperialistischen Ziele zunächst auf die Mongolei, die äußere Mandschurei und Ostturkestan.". Google Translate gives: "Now his imperialist goals are initially limited to Mongolia, outer Manchuria and East Turkestan." Think about it like this Lambiam: in 1931, did Stalin have imperialist goals in controlling Vladivostok? Hell no he didn't: Vladivostok was not an imperial goal, it was a foregone conclusion that it was part of the USSR. He had goals in areas that weren't part of the USSR. In that text, I would tell you that äußere Mandschurei refers to the fringes of the Manchuria inside China that was not part of the USSR, that is, the parts near the Chinese Eastern Railway. Check out my work at Wiktionary:Citations:Outer_Manchuria#outer_Manchuria_(remote_region). I think that this German cite would fit snuggly into that pattern, if I'm understanding the source correctly. (This was just a cursory glance not a full analysis.) Geographyinitiative (talk) 09:29, 10 June 2023 (UTC)(Modified)[reply]
I am impressed and surprised. You seem to have made a very solid case with your citations. I also looked up the Chinese equivalents 外滿洲 and 外東北 on Google, but again can't find anything pre-2004 that uses that to mean the areas ceded in 1858 and 1860. (Though I suppose I could have missed something.)
Nonetheless, I have to ask: so what if it is citogenesis from there? If it was a recent citogenesis, sure, but the citogenesis has been going on for almost two decades. By now the term is, as you've demonstrated with citations, quite securely attested with this new meaning in post-2004 academic sources, and Chinese websites have very much picked it up. That seems to be enough to hang an article on: whatever it used to mean before 2004, "outer Manchuria" now very much means "the areas ceded in 1858 and 1860".
Look at the Daryl Bem article. (Today is his 85th birthday.) When I visit the article originally it always says he's 84. But after I edit the article simply by clicking edit and then publish (without doing any edits) it says he's 85. Have you had experience with similar events?? Georgia guy (talk) 10:14, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
When you first looked you were probably seeing a cached version that might be a day or so old. After the "edit", the cache would be flushed. I've looked just now and he's 85, so I'm probably seeing a "Georgia guy" version whereas you initially saw the "Carchasm" version of 31 May. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 10:46, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved
