::I should clarify that links to lists in infoboxes are not bad in all cases. Especially regarding my second paragraph, if there were a generally agreed upon subset of compositions that everyone knows are the most notable, it's not a problem. You have the best examples with the link to all at the bottom of that field. It is very helpful for discoverability as Skdb notes above in the edit mine conflicted with.{{pb}}The problem for this case is that unless such an agreed upon subset of most notable compositions exists, you're going to end up back at none at all. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 01:03, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
::I should clarify that links to lists in infoboxes are not bad in all cases. Especially regarding my second paragraph, if there were a generally agreed upon subset of compositions that everyone knows are the most notable, it's not a problem. You have the best examples with the link to all at the bottom of that field. It is very helpful for discoverability as Skdb notes above in the edit mine conflicted with.{{pb}}The problem for this case is that unless such an agreed upon subset of most notable compositions exists, you're going to end up back at none at all. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 01:03, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
::Quick thought: would something like [[List of compositions by Gioachino Rossini|Operas, cantatas and much else]] be sufficiently factual, or fall foul of [[WP:EASTEREGG]] or other good practice? [[User:NebY|NebY]] ([[User talk:NebY|talk]]) 12:57, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
::Quick thought: would something like [[List of compositions by Gioachino Rossini|Operas, cantatas and much else]] be sufficiently factual, or fall foul of [[WP:EASTEREGG]] or other good practice? [[User:NebY|NebY]] ([[User talk:NebY|talk]]) 12:57, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
:::I'm not really an MOS regular like [[User:MyCatIsAChonk]] is looking for: I just watchlist a few pages. Having had a look into how the infoboxes in liberal arts biographies have traditionally implemented this unproblematically, and given the usefulness argument presented above by [[User:Skdb]], I feel like although just a bare link to another article doesn't fully comply with [[MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE]], it does serve the reader.{{pb}}Having said that, for this case there is an additional issue in that [[List of operas by Gioachino Rossini]] has already been split from [[List of compositions by Gioachino Rossini]], which links it as a "see also" in its first lvl2 subheading. If the lead sentence of the article says Rossini {{tq|"gained fame for his 39 operas"}}, that's what I'd expect to be linked in the infobox if a link is included in this parameter. If he's notable for the rest of his compositions similarly to his notability from operas, we could link both the articles and update the lead sentence to reflect that. [[User:Folly Mox|Folly Mox]] ([[User talk:Folly Mox|talk]]) 15:26, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
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In practice, if we're going to have a preferred convention, it should be whatever the visual editor does, because editors using it don't get a choice.
I will point out, as @Jdforrester once pointed out to me, that when you want to write something with mixed formatting, such as [[Main page|OPQ<sub>2</sub>]]or[[Main page|RS''T'']], the formatting must be inside the label. Therefore if one wanted to have a preference, it might be a good idea to prefer the version that always works, rather than preferring the version that only works if the link label gets the same formatting throughout.
This, naturally, is the opposite of what many editors find aesthetically pleasing. I recommend not establishing a preferred convention. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:54, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed with WhatamIdoing, except I think it would probably be good to recommend (or at least consistently illustrate) the "inside" style, for the [[Main page|RS''T'']] reason given above, but only if it's what VE does. If VE puts the markup outside by default, then all bets are off and we just have to throw up our hands. — SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 02:33, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The visual editor always puts bold/italics on the inside of the brackets if a piped link is involved: [[This|''That'']] and on the outside if for a simple link: ''[[This]]''. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:45, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with the application of this principle in this specific instance. It's more helpful for readers for us to be consistent in linking the location of a subject in the infobox and lede sentence. ElKevbo (talk) 11:34, 18 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry to disappoint, but I don't think anyone clicks on a link to such a commonly known location. The long-established practice is to minimise linking—for readability and, importantly, to avoid diluting the linking system. Editors normally use their skills to funnel readers to the most useful links only. One final point: no one is stopped from typing NYC into the search box. Tony(talk)13:27, 18 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you choose to edit Wikipedia, you're choosing to follow Wikipedia's style. Linking New York City is specifically given in MOS:OL as a example of something not to do. There is no exception for the lead sentence. Dan Bloch (talk) 14:33, 19 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
For the lead sentence, MOS:CONTEXTLINK may apply, and if so, it would override our normal overlinking rules. It'd be helpful to see the specific context of this dispute. {{u|Sdkb}}talk14:37, 19 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The locus of dispute may be Columbia Business School, an academic entity located in New York City. This is the exact type of article where you would want to link New York City, at the very least in the infobox. It's completely pertinent to the subject matter.
MOS:OL states it is usually not linked, but certainly genuine New York City topics can link New York City. There's no policy against ever linking it. Folly Mox (talk) 23:42, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies for the unclear wording. I should have written genuine New York City topics can certainly link New York City. As to what constitutes a "genuine New York City topic", I agree that this does not include people born there and a vast array of adjunct topics, but I think something like an academic institution, a municipal election, a neighbourhood, a museum, a transit system, and so on— these should be allowed to link the city in which they're situated, regardless of which city it is. At least in the infobox. Probably not the prose. The fact that people know what New York City is doesn't mean they'll never have reason to navigate to its article, especially if they've just been reading one about a related topic. Folly Mox (talk) 05:39, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The simple solution would be to never link New York City. We could probably have the same rule for Paris, Rome and London (except where one might reasonably think of London, Ontario), etc. Almost no one clicks on such links and they are easy enough to type in the search box. Edwardx (talk) 10:34, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The names of subjects with which most readers will be at least somewhat familiar. This generally includes major examples of...locations (e.g., New Delhi; New York City, or just New York if the city context is already clear; London, if the context rules out London, Ontario; Southeast Asia)
Entirely with Edward; and entirely not with Folly Mox. I'm pretty confident that not more than one in a million readers is likely want to divert from the article they've arrived at to read the article on NYC. There seems to be a fallacy about linking—that if an item is not linked, its article is somehow inaccessible. No: that's why we have a search box. Every redundant link has costs. Tony(talk)12:41, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This was all covered in the huge community-wide RfC in 2009. I'm surprised to be asked this in 2023 (unless you come from another-language WP where linking is completely undisciplined). (1) It dilutes the system, whereas we editors know the topic and can be trusted to link sparingly only to items that are genuinely likely to be followed by at least a small number of readers. Undisciplined linking means that we can't communicate this to readers, who are more likely to switch off. (2) A patchy "sea of blue" doesn't make it easier to read, (3) Synoptically it looks messy and unprofessional. Tony(talk)00:08, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The assertion that some articles should never be linked to is ridiculous. Articles are not meant to be orphans with no incoming links and readers are not supposed to navigate Wikipedia solely by searching for articles. ElKevbo (talk) 12:50, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Unless a term is particularly relevant to the context in the article, the following are usually not linked. I guess it's my perspective that geographic situation is often relevant to context for certain types of topics. Academic institutions are arguably pretty low on the list, unless the institution has major influence on the local culture, which I doubt Columbia University is an example of. But to argue that certain well known major cities are neverparticularly relevant to context seems like an extreme position.
Trying to understand the perspective of the people who hold that position (fairly well reflected in the guidance itself), it seems to me – and apologies in advance if this feels like a mischaracterisation – the mindset is that readers will only ever click on an article if they are totally unfamiliar with the topic, and Tony1 above in particular expresses this as diverting from the current article, as if people don't have access to multiple tabs, and can open an article in the background to read later or forget about for months until their browser crashes and then they reopen it like "why did I have this article open?".
My personal use case, which I suspect I share with a number of other ADHD people, is not "wait, what's a “New York City”? let me read that article instead", but "hmm, tell me more" (now closer to "I wonder what our coverage of Well-known Topic is like" and "I wonder what our sourcing at Well-known Topic is like", but these are definitely editor concerns rather than reading habits). Folly Mox (talk) 13:31, 9 August 2023 (UTC), with 97 tabs open in the background.[reply]
New York City will never become an orphan - removing such links is like a game of Whac-A-Mole. One could make a case for linking to New York City in articles on geographical subdivisions such as Brooklyn and Manhattan, but that is about it. We have 188,514 wikilinks to New York City. Surely that is far too many. Edwardx (talk) 13:39, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Some folks here are citing MOS:OVERLINK, but for the lead sentence, the pertinent guideline section is not that but MOS:CONTEXTLINK. And it's unambiguous on this point:
The first sentence should provide links to the broader or more elementary topics that are important to the article's topic or place it into the context where it is notable.
For example, an article about a building or location should include a link to the broader geographical area of which it is a part.
If folks want to challenge the guideline, feel free to discuss, but there should be no ambiguity about how we currently define best practice for this situation.
The only other thing I'd note is that if something is located entirely within one borough, it might be possible to sidestep the issue by listing the borough and linking to that instead of the city. {{u|Sdkb}}talk17:57, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Both policies are pertinent, and they conflict to some extent, as is sometimes inevitably the case with the MOS. I edit far more London articles, and in the lead would normally link to the district and not the city itself, eg Hampstead, London. Edwardx (talk) 00:02, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:GEOLINK specifies larger unit, not unit(s). This pertains to the country, as demonstrated by the accompanying examples. In fact, this guideline only discusses the case where two geographical units are separated by a comma, with the second unit being specifically a country.
Regarding the specific case at hand, Tamil Nadu is a location that might not be familiar to the majority of readers. This validates the purpose of a link, as not doing so could potentially force readers to manually search or to open Chennai article and then open Tamil Nadu from there.
Since there's confusion and changes like this affect a vast majority of articles, I strongly recommend initiating an RFC. This process will facilitate a thorough discussion on whether "larger unit" should be revised to "country" or if it should encompass all larger units following a comma. In either scenario, seeking consensus through an RFC will establish a definitive guideline to address any future disputes.--The Doom Patrol (talk) 10:56, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We have already had an RfC on GEOLINK, which did not pertain solely to the country but also to lower-level entities (thus the example of Buffalo). Nikkimaria (talk) 23:50, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The first thing I notice is that the guidance says generally do not link (emphasis added), while the hidden comment removed in the diff above shouts DO NOT LINK in all caps like it's some kind of core content prohibition. There will be cases where a link is warranted.
Per MOS:SECTLINK and by example in the MOS itself, the § format is preferred. Whether or not you use the {{Section link}} template is different, although I don't see why you wouldn't. But I do agree that the guidance could be more direct. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 07:28, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Two days ago, I opened a discussion at Talk:Gioachino Rossini to debate the addition of an infobox. For those who may be unaware, WikiProject Composers has an age-old policy guideline that disallows infoboxes in composer biographies, but this has been changed in recent years. This question isn't about that; rather, this is about the inclusion of something within a possible Rossini infobox.
To the right is the infobox I proposed, similar in style to Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, etc. The inclusion of the article link to "List of compositions" in the works parameter has been the subject of debate. @Gerda Arendt and I state that the inclusion is justified because the link shows that Rossini was notable for composing and this is the standard on many other composer articles. @Nikkimaria countered that MOS:FORCELINK, which is part of Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Linking, disallows these kinds of links per the words, "The text needs to make sense to readers who cannot follow links. Users may print articles or read offline, and Wikipedia content may be encountered in republished form, often without links." I argued that the very bullet point Nikki quoted also says, "Use a link when appropriate, but as far as possible do not force a reader to use that link to understand the sentence." (emphasis added) Infoboxes are certainly not sentences, but Nikki found this to still apply, since it "mak[es] it so readers could only understand the oeuvre of the article subject by following a link, which is what NOFORCELINK exists to combat".
So, now I am here. I understand the point Nikki is making and understand how it may apply to the infobox, but I want the input of people who frequent the MoS and deduce the sometime vague phrasing. Is the inclusion of the "List of compositions" link under the works parameter a violation of the MoS? MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 00:18, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've always found links to lists in infoboxes slightly odd, but they're highly relevant to the subject, and reader data shows that having them is important for helping readers discover the list. The only alternative seems to be leaving them out, which doesn't feel optimal. And the NOFORCELINK argument seems rather weak per MyCat's argument. {{u|Sdkb}}talk00:58, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Nikkimaria that this is not a helpful thing to put into this infobox. The first sentence of the lead of Gioachino Rossini says in part that he gained fame for his 39 operas, so we already know he's notable for composing. And of course the link to List of compositions by Gioachino Rossini is already in the article, under "Music" in a {{see also}}, so it's not something you'd have to hunt to find.
From a practicality standpoint, were this link to be added to the infobox, it would be a short time before uninvolved editors found it lacking in that it communicates no facts, and start adding examples they felt to be most notable while keeping the list as a link under the last example. This would evolve into an unpleasant argument between editors as to which examples to include, which compositions "most notable".
As to whether it's an MOS violation, I'd say that it doesn't comply with WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE as noted. It's not a quick essential fact about the subject that Wikipedia has a list article about his compositions. Folly Mox (talk) 00:58, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I should clarify that links to lists in infoboxes are not bad in all cases. Especially regarding my second paragraph, if there were a generally agreed upon subset of compositions that everyone knows are the most notable, it's not a problem. You have the best examples with the link to all at the bottom of that field. It is very helpful for discoverability as Skdb notes above in the edit mine conflicted with.
The problem for this case is that unless such an agreed upon subset of most notable compositions exists, you're going to end up back at none at all. Folly Mox (talk) 01:03, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not really an MOS regular like User:MyCatIsAChonk is looking for: I just watchlist a few pages. Having had a look into how the infoboxes in liberal arts biographies have traditionally implemented this unproblematically, and given the usefulness argument presented above by User:Skdb, I feel like although just a bare link to another article doesn't fully comply with MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE, it does serve the reader.
Having said that, for this case there is an additional issue in that List of operas by Gioachino Rossini has already been split from List of compositions by Gioachino Rossini, which links it as a "see also" in its first lvl2 subheading. If the lead sentence of the article says Rossini "gained fame for his 39 operas", that's what I'd expect to be linked in the infobox if a link is included in this parameter. If he's notable for the rest of his compositions similarly to his notability from operas, we could link both the articles and update the lead sentence to reflect that. Folly Mox (talk) 15:26, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Link in original"/"link added"
The MOS currently advises If quoting hypertext, add an editorial note, [link in original] or [link added], as appropriate. In practice, though, I almost never see this, as these parentheticals would generally cost more in terms of interrupting the reading flow than they'd provide in clarity benefit. Could we reconsider this advice? Perhaps not note "link added" and only note "link in original" when it's deemed significant to the quote's point? Or perhaps consider advising a footnote or some other less-intrusive means of providing the disclaimer? {{u|Sdkb}}talk07:50, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, just suggesting a "link in original" (if helpful) seems reasonable and certainly corresponds to the status quo. Like you say, everybody quotes from hypertext (that is, other websites) all the time, adds wikilinks as appropriate, and never marks them. Gawaon (talk) 10:33, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
