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Talk:NCFE (charity)

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On 7 December 2022, it was proposed that this article be movedtoNCFE (Vocational and technical learning charity). The result of the discussion was Moved to NCFE (charity).

The result of the move request was: consensus not to move the page to NCFE, per the discussion below, although per the evidence here, moving to a variation on "NCFE (Foo)" may still be advisable. Dekimasuよ! 00:28, 27 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Northern Council For Further Education → NCFE – Current name is NCFE, not an acronym,^[1] so recent page move was incorrect. Move back to NCFE as primary topic. David Biddulph (talk) 03:45, 19 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Survey[edit]

• Oppose I see no evidence for this being the primary topic. [1], and certainly not in India [2]; you can call it NCFE (Wales) if you want. -- 67.70.35.44 (talk) 21:08, 19 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. No clear primary topic. Many organisations are commonly known by their abbreviations. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:52, 22 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Strongly oppose (1) as the abbreviation should be a disambiguation page and (2) as the page name should be the full name to be understandable by everyone. It was and thus is an acronym. Katy Gallaghon (talk) 19:23, 25 October 2014 (UTC).[reply]

  The fact that it was an acronym in the past doesn't mean that the old name is still valid. Similarly BP is no longer called "British Petroleum". --David Biddulph (talk) 21:01, 25 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Anyone have any thoughts on this (before I potentially waste time trying to edit the content to be more objective)?

There seems to be nothing saying whether or how an individual can join the NCFE system in order to get a qualification. I didn't see anything helpful on the NCFE web site either. There is also the question of just what an individual or a school should do in order to become able to teach a subject to NCFE standards officially. 94.30.84.71 (talk) 17:38, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Consensus against moving. (non-admin closure) Natg 19 (talk) 22:55, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Northern Council for Further Education → NCFE
• NCFE → NCFE (disambiguation)

– Have not been known as Northern Council for Education since name change in 1990s 2A00:23C8:1F0B:4901:8C40:8E1A:8422:B01F (talk) 12:54, 24 May 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. --lettherebedarklight – 晚安 (おやすみなさい)。 08:25, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 04:14, 25 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• This request can not be carried out, as the proposed target is already occupied. BD2412 T 17:51, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• This would require an RM discussion to consider moving NCFEtoNCFE (disambiguation) so this page can usurp the NCFE page as the primary topic. Mdewman6 (talk) 23:55, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• It does not appear anything has changed since I closed the last discussion 8 years ago: NCFE (Foo) seems to be possible, but no evidence has been given that this is the primary topic. In fact, it does not have the largest number of views among options on the disambiguation page. Dekimasuよ! 06:34, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Seems like you need this discussion to decide on the best disambiguation marker. Maybe NCFE (British organization)? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 07:33, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Moving to an abbreviation in this way is pure marketing. It's always best to keep the full name. Then it's obvious what the article is about. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:42, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  The organisation is known only by the name NCFE - they have not been known as Northern Council for Education for over 25 years. This is not the full name, but rather, a historic one. Could it be changed to using a disambiguation marker, as suggested by Joy? Possibly "NCFE (Vocational and technical learning charity)"? 2A00:23C8:1F18:1301:559:61D1:B37A:EFD4 (talk) 11:45, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

As suggested by the closer of the above thread (see: their talk page), I'm reopening this discussion to determine the best parenthetical disambiguation with regards to a name change for this page. The organisation is known solely by the name NCFE - they have not been known as Northern Council for Education for decades. This is therefore not their full name, but rather a historic one - and as such, I believe a parenthetical disambiguation would be the most accurate and proper way to reflect this. Does "NCFE (Vocational and technical learning charity)" work? 81.159.58.194 (talk) 14:24, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The result of the move request was: Moved to NCFE (charity). Those opposing are doing on basis that that it is an abbreviation. However, those supporting has presented evidence that this is a rebrand, with the abbreviation clearly being utilised more commonly than the full name, satisfying WP:NAMECHANGES. Consensus developed on the shortened disambiguator. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 13:00, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Northern Council for Further Education → NCFE (Vocational and technical learning charity) – As suggested by the closer of the above thread dated 25 May 2022 (see: their talk page), I'm reopening this discussion to determine the best parenthetical disambiguation with regards to a name change for this page. The organisation is known solely by the name NCFE - they have not been known as Northern Council for Education for decades. This is therefore not their full name, but rather a historic one - and as such, I believe a parenthetical disambiguation would be the most accurate and proper way to reflect this. Does "NCFE (Vocational and technical learning charity)" work? 2A00:23C8:1F18:1301:A107:7E84:BBEE:6208 (talk) 11:41, 7 December 2022 (UTC) — Relisting.  ASUKITE 16:33, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per previous RM. Moving a simple name to an abbreviation and a convoluted disambiguator makes no sense. I always find it rather amusing when an organisation desperately tries to sound cool and distance itself from the name that its abbreviation clearly represents. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:19, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  @Necrothesp I disagree with this argument but no opinion on the proposed target. If as mentioned by the nom, the target has fully rebranded to an abbreviated name, we should follow suit. The company's website appears to only use NCFE: https://ncfe.org.uk/ Natg 19 (talk) 18:06, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks @Natg 19 - the target did indeed undergo a full rebrand which was the basis of my suggestion for the name change, and why no mention of the historical name can be found on either the target's website or Companies House entry. Would the suggested disambiguator of "NCFE (Vocational and technical learning charity)" therefore be appropriate? 2A00:23C8:1F18:1301:A107:7E84:BBEE:6208 (talk) 16:46, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Move to NCFE (charity). It does seem like the full name has been dropped entirely, and is not generally used in sources any more, so per WP:NAMECHANGES it's appropriate to move this. I'm suggesting a simple "(charity)" rather than the longer disambiguator suggested in the nom. Note that, per the link above, they do have a limited company registered as well, but they're primarily a charity and the other entries at NCFE are not, so seems OK. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 14:33, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Support this. 162 etc. (talk) 15:16, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm happy with the new proposal of "NCFE (charity)" as proposed by Amakuru. Thanks! 2A00:23C8:1F18:1301:55F8:E88B:E9B4:7E47 (talk) 11:42, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Wales has been notified of this discussion. ASUKITE 16:33, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose, on the basis there's no independent reliable proof of what exactly the company/charity is best known as. Tt's fairly plain what "NCFE" stands for and if the Wikipedia article was originally created under 'Northern Council for Further Education', it must have been for a reason. Understandably, such a mouthful could be commonly abbreviated by people that know NCFE. This (and the whole article for that matter) currently suggests someone is trying to promote an organisation under their newer branding. Sionk (talk) 18:48, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Support move to NCFE (charity) It seems the organisation has long dropped the full name since the 1990s [3] [4] [5] as they're no longer purely focused on Northern England with the letters no longer being an acronym[6], while it can indeed be interpreted as a remarketing of the organisation, other bodies seem to have accepted it. NCFE is used by the UK Government [7] and the Joint Council for Qualifications [8]. NCFE is its legal name, a charity under the full name was removed. Many results under "Northern Council for Further Education" use that term in past tense [9] [10] (and 1990s sources above). Also search engine results [11] [12] lean NCFE, although this can be influenced by the qualification, but trying to exclude those still show leaning to NCFE, 7,230 Google news articles compared to 20 full name (many under the full name stated "formerly the Northern..."), therefore likely satisfies WP:NAMECHANGES, although may be helpful for the full/former name to remain in the lead. Support altered disambiguator by Amakuru. DankJae 21:51, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.