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Talk:West Syriac Rite

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What rite do you have?

[edit]

Oknazevad recently asked me about the West Syrian liturgical rites article I created. My motivation for creating it was that the scope of this article is confused. This article, based on the Catholic Encyclopedia article, primarily discusses the rite practiced by the Syriac Orthodox Church and Syriac Catholic Church. The sources I used list this rite as one of three distinct but related rites in the same family, together with the Maronite Rite and the Malankara Rite. I started West Syrian liturgical rites as a quick attempt to deal with this. There are a few things we can do to deal with this. We could rewrite this article to discuss all three rites. However, no source I've seen outside of Wikipedia uses the specific name "West Syrian Rite" to discuss all three rites. It would have to be rewritten and retitled. Or, we could write this article to discuss specifically the Syriac Orthodox/Syriac Catholic rite, and discuss how the others are related (which is what I tried to do with the intro). In this case, we would still need a place to discuss the family of rites. Thoughts?--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:23, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Britannica says that the "Antiochene rite", which it defines as the whole family of rites I mentioned above, is also called the "West Syrian rite". So perhaps we wouldn't need a new title after all, but a total rewrite would be in order.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:32, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(Trying to avoid rolling eyes at punny title). As I said at your talk page, the way I've always understood it, through my studies, is that the Malankara and Marionite are not distinct rites so much as variant usages that developed because of the independant operations of each church (with the marionite being pretty Latinized, though the post-Vatican II de-Latinization has undone some of that). As soon as I saw your mention of Britannica, I remebered that they may have influenced my understanding (he says as he looks at the old Britannica set on the shelf).

As for how distinct they actually are, I don't know enough to say for certain. I'm still trying to get an understanding of the differences between the West and East Syrian rites. oknazevad (talk) 21:57, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Syro Malankara church uses a variant of the original liturgy of the Syriac orthodox church. Hence picture of the Syriac orthodox liturgy is apt in this context.Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 22:17, 5 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This article is not about the liturgy of the Syriac orthodox church. Its about "West-Syrian" liturgy. Now there may be many variants and the one followed by Syriac Orthodox Church is one of the variants. -59.95.64.78 (talk) 22:25, 5 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It is always better to show the original version than the variant.Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 22:31, 5 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

please see below section for my queries -59.95.64.78 (talk) 23:06, 5 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Today there are many churches following West Syrian Rite.

• Syriac Orthodox Church and its Indian branch Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church
• Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
• Malabar Independent Syrian Church
• Syriac Catholic Church
• Maronite Church
• Syro-Malankara Catholic Church
• Mar Thoma Syrian Church

There was a picture of Holy Mass of Syro-Malankara Catholic Church in this article. Recently this has been replaced with another picture - Holy Mass of Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church. Since both Syro-Malankara Catholic Church and Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church (Syriac Orthodox Church) follows West Syrian liturgy, what is the point in removing first picture? Let us keep both the pictures -59.95.64.78 (talk) 22:49, 5 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The current picture added by User:Kokkarani is not the Holy Mass of Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church, it is the Holy Mass of Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church. please note, Malankara rite is practiced by various churches that descend from the Malankara Church, namely the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church, the Jacobite Syrian Christian Church, the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church, the Malabar Independent Syrian Church, and the Mar Thoma Syrian Church. In this case removing the picture of Holy Mass of Syro-Malankara Catholic Church and keeping only Jacobite Church picture is not fair !! -45.125.147.24 (talk) 14:27, 6 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church is an integral part of Syrian Orthodox Church. I don't understand why you are refusing the original liturgy and accepting a variant of the West Syrian liturgy formed only in 1930 AD. Syriac Orthodox Church has been using this liturgy of St James from the Apostolic era and is the most ancient liturgy available. So you think a variant liturgy formed in 1930 AD should represent the West Syrian liturgy?Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 00:10, 7 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I do not have any disagreement with the statement Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church is an integral part of Syrian Orthodox Church. But need some clarity on following ponts:
1)You said Syro-Malankara church is using a variant of West-Syrian Liturgy. Which is this variant? Is this variant known as 'Malankara Rite'? What is the difference between West Syrian Liturgy and this variant?
2)Which is the liturgy practiced in Jacobite Syrian Christian Church? is it West Syrian or its variant??
3)Which is the liturgy practiced in Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church?? is it West Syrian or its variant?? -45.126.205.180 (talk) 16:51, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Kokkarani, you have not provided clarifications for above queries. Instead of that you changed the title of the article "Malankara Rite" to "Syro Malankara Rite" and did these changes in the article. Very Good Response!! -45.126.205.110 (talk) 23:50, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This edit requesttoWest Syrian Rite has been answered. Set the |answered=or|ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

This article is not about liturgy of the syriac orthodox church. Its about West Syrian liturgy and today many churches follows that. It is not fair to remove the liturgical services of other churches who follows West Syrian Liturgy.-59.95.64.78 (talk) 22:28, 5 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. clpo13_(talk) 22:30, 5 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done Also, get consensus for the change first, then use the template. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 22:32, 5 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please see the above section - 59.95.64.78 (talk) 22:49, 5 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the article . It says many churches descended from Syriac Orthodox Church are using variants of the West Syrian liturgy. However the liturgy practiced in the Syriac Orthodox church is the primary source one for all other churches descended from it. Hence it is apt to show the liturgy of the Syriac Orthodox church in this context.Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 00:15, 7 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Kokkarani, you have not provided answers for the 3 questions I raised in above section - 23:39, 13 August 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.126.205.110 (talk)

The result of the move request was: moved as requested. Dekimasuよ! 00:43, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

West Syrian Rite → West Syriac Rite – Until lately named so. Per WP:CONSISTENCY with Syriac language, Syriac Christianity, Syriac Catholic Church, Syriac Orthodox Church etc. Chicbyaccident (talk) 07:23, 2 July 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. Dekimasuよ! 21:44, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Support, per consistency, as proposed. Sorabino (talk) 12:05, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

I believe that West Syriac liturgical rites is simply a duplicate article of West Syriac Rite. If West Syriac liturgical rites has a distinct purpose, it's merely to list the subordinate liturgical uses of the West Syriac Rite. In a similar instance, we have only one article for Latin liturgical rites, rather than separating out the ritual family and the list of subordinate rites and uses. ~ Pbritti (talk) 20:34, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• I think this is a speedy merge. It is not even a duplicate, but a parallel stub that was never meaningfully expanded. –Zfish118^⋉talk 21:46, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Support merge. I disagree with User:Zfish118 in that I think there was originally a reason for this parallelism (see here[1] where origin and previous merger proposal was discussed), but as the articles have evolved this has passed from relevance. I'd encourage whoever undertakes the merge to rely on Brock's more recent encyclopedia article[2] in preference to the antique Fortescue, Catholic Encyclopedia, King, or the less specialized Britannica. Jahaza 23:59, 29 December 2022 (UTC)‎[reply]

  Concur on deference to a more modern source; CE's outsized and antiquated influence on Eastern Christian liturgical articles is an issue I want to tackle in the new year. ~ Pbritti (talk) 07:22, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• The original discussion you linked to doesn't really make a strong case for a separate article, readily admitted the scope of the CE-based original article was confused. Though as you say, the CE-based article has evolved considerably (while the smaller of the two has remained mostly unchanged), rendering the original logic moot. –Zfish118^⋉talk 18:52, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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