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bygarcia ( 6573 ) * writes:
The consulting firm issued a report on Wednesday stating that about 40 percent of Linux PCs will be modified to run an illegal copy of Windows, a bait-and-switch maneuver that lowers the cost of obtaining a Windows PC.
I wasn't aware that PCs were made by Microsoft. I realize that B. Crew wants every PC to be sold with Windows and makes in very difficult for vendors to do anything but sell them that way, but I am pretty certain it isn't a requirement for Windows to be on every single PC out there.
As a result, the number of desktop Linux PCs that ship will exceed the actual percentage of Linux machines that get installed in the real world. Desktop Linux will account for about 5 percent of desktops shipped in 2004, according to Gartner, with 10.5 percent of the desktops in Asia shipping with Linux this year. However, the installed base of Linux will come to only 1.3 percent.
In 2008, Linux will account for 7.5 percent of PCs shipped, but only 2.6 percent of the installed base, about the same that Apple's installed base will be then.
Star News reports that by 2009 15.29% of the The National Enquirer's stories will be completely false and that their own stories will overtake FoxNews as the most truthful news source on the planet.
My last machine came with XP installed. I didn't even get to have a CD of XP other than the restore CD. The key on the back of the computer was invalid anyway and MSFT had no suggestions for me other than using a valid key... So, we have to buy a computer with Windows on it because MSFT won't be friendly with vendors that don't offer 100% Windows only. We get that computer with Windows but we really can't use the copy on any other machine and we don't get the install CD and it may not even have a working key. Yet we are supposed to believe that this is acceptable and poor MSFT will lose money to piracy.
I paid for my copy of Windows XP and I expect to get my use out of it whether it follows MSFT's rules or not. I would assume the same rings true elsewhere. Who the hell wants to pay 20%+ of their PC cost for Windows if they can't even use it?
Welcome to hell.
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byAnonymous Coward writes:
I paid for my copy of Windows XP and I expect to get my use out of it whether it follows MSFT's rules or not.
You paid for a non-transferable, limited use license to run XP on the specific machine that you purchased. If you want a transferable license you can get one at Best Buy.
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bygarcia ( 6573 ) * writes:
You paid for a non-transferable, limited use license to run XP on the specific machine that you purchased. If you want a transferable license you can get one at Best Buy.
I paid for a piece of software that I should be able to use at my leisure. When someone ships a computer they shouldn't be tied down to what the vendor of the OS wants. They should be allowed to do what they want with what they got.
byAnonymous Coward writes:
You actually didn't pay for the software but a very limited license on the software at a hugely discounted rate. If you want a copy without the restrictions then pay the full price for the software.
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bySparr0 ( 451780 ) writes:
Says you. A number of judges disagree, and their opinions are what counts. Consumer software is not licensed, it is sold. If MS doesnt want to sell me a copy of windows, thats their option, but as long as they are taking my money and handing me a cd, i own that copy.
byeinhverfr ( 238914 ) writes:
You actually didn't pay for the software but a very limited license on the software at a hugely discounted rate. If you want a copy without the restrictions then pay the full price for the software.
Surely you mean "fewer restrictions."
Linux has fewer restrictions still....
And BSD has essentially no restrictions.
SO if you want the OS without the restrictions, go with Linux or BSD, depending on your needs....
byhackstraw ( 262471 ) * writes:
I paid for a piece of software that I should be able to use at my leisure. When someone ships a computer they shouldn't be tied down to what the vendor of the OS wants. They should be allowed to do what they want with what they got.
You should have clicked "No, I do not agree to the terms of this license" and installed something else.
byfireman sam ( 662213 ) writes:
Quoth: You should have clicked "No, I do not agree to the terms of this license" and installed something else.
Do preinstalled versions of XP (or any windows version) require you to click on "Yes I agree" at first boot? Or is purchasing the computer agreement enough?
I haven't purchased an OEM prebuild PC since 96 and that was a 386 with DOS on it.
byjerw134 ( 409531 ) writes:
Do preinstalled versions of XP (or any windows version) require you to click on "Yes I agree" at first boot? Or is purchasing the computer agreement enough?
I can't speak for any of the other OEMs, but I know that on Dell PCs, you are presented an EULA that says you agree with all of the EULAs for all of the software that comes with the computer. This EULA is displayed before Windows even begins to load, right after the Dell BIOS logo is displayed.
byfitten ( 521191 ) writes:
Can I sell a license with a book? With lettuce maybe?
Irrelevant. They aren't the same thing. This is where the whole F/OSS vs. Closed Source issue is founded. The book comes with copyrights, which says you can't copy it. You can sell that one book to someone else, but you can't make copies and sell them or even give them away. Similarly, the lettuce is a consumable and used only once by you (I hope). It's hard to copy a head of lettuce and sell or give it away.
Software is easily copied and distribu
byDashing Leech ( 688077 ) writes:
Physical material cost (for the item itself and the equipment required to build the parts) prevents it [copying].
You are mixing and matching a bunch of cases that muddle the issue. There are at least 4 cases here in:
Software: Copying is easy, cheap, but illegal (except for fair use). This is the one that's at the core of the discussion. The main issue is that people license software instead of owning the copy they get, unlike just about any other product.
Natural material goods, like lettuce: Copying is impossible, but legal. I don't think anybody would complain if we could.
Manufactured material goods, like an automobile: Copying is hard, expensive, but generally legal (except if violating a patent).
Copyrighted material goods, like a book: Copying is relatively cheap and easy, especially if scanned in, but illegal.
From the above list, you'll see that software and books are very similar. Both can be copied cheaply and easily. Books can be scanned it and distributed through P2P. The original question I think asked how come I can buy a book and do with it as I please (except copy it) but not the same with software for which we license it, sometimes with severe and inconvenient restrictions? It is a valid question. The ease and cheapness of copying does not differentiate books from software, both are generally quite easy and cheap. The difference seems to lie in the fact that software naturally comes in a form that can be copied and a book has to be converted from physical to electronic (via scanning, for instance). It's not as clear a difference as some would believe.
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byfitten ( 521191 ) writes:
From the above list, you'll see that software and books are very similar. Both can be copied cheaply and easily. Books can be scanned it and distributed through P2P.
Yes, but it takes a bit of time to do that. That is where the cost is. I don't know how long it would take to scan a 400 page book, but it would be boring and probably take up an afternoon or so.
The original question I think asked how come I can buy a book and do with it as I please (except copy it) but not the same with software for which
byscotch ( 102596 ) writes:
Not following the rules is part of the game, too.
bygcaseye6677 ( 694805 ) writes:
Let me make sure I understand this. When I buy a computer, I am required to pay for a Windows license, whether I want it or not (just try getting a laptop without Windows). If something happens to the machine or I just choose to not use it anymore, the Windows license which I PAID FOR is now worthless. In any business besides software, this would be shut down as the racket that it is. This is the kind of shit that makes people not take software piracy seriously. When piracy is defined as any use that the vendor does not approve of, it's hard to call it a moral issue and to think of the vendor as a victim.
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byGuspaz ( 556486 ) writes:
Just try getting a laptop without windows? I did. It was easy... I simply selected "None" as the OS.
It's all about knowing what to buy and where to buy it. I bought a Compal CL56 notebook, which is a whitebook chassis used to manufacture many other notebooks (Such as one of Voodoo PC's 15" Centrino model). Because it's a whitebook, I buy the chassis and parts seperately (Though I chose to pay $29 Canadian to have the store assemble it for me).
Because it was not purchased from a big computer maker, but simply a computer store, there is no obligation to buy or run Windows on the notebook.
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bychris_mahan ( 256577 ) writes:
Exactly.
I bought a computer at a local store. The guy fished through a boxed and handed me a nice shrinked-wrapped windows licence with Getting started guide and CD. I pushed it back to him across the counter and said: "Keep it for the next guy, this machine won't be running windows."
He smiled and said, "Cool".
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byAnonymous Coward writes:
So how much did he discount the PC?
bychris_mahan ( 256577 ) writes:
25
the machine went from 325 to 300. That was 4 years ago.
byLord Kano ( 13027 ) writes:
About a month ago, I was pricing laptops at a local shop and their configuration program offered only WinXP Home and WinXP Professional. I told the salesman, I'll be running linux, I don't need any version of Windows, but that's not a choice here.
He said, no problem, we'll take $100 off of the price.
To be honest, the people who are locked into buying a PC with Windows on it are the people who want to run Windows in the first place.
People who will run other OSes know where to buy.
LK
byEnder Ryan ( 79406 ) writes:
Where the fuck do you live that there is a local shop that custom builds laptops? Where can you get a custom built laptop online even? I've been a Linux user for nearly a decade, and I have never found a decent place to get laptops without 'doze. There are some places, but the options are sorely lacking. Of course, getting parts and assembling desktops has always been easy, but laptops... I've asked and asked, everywhere, without ever getting an answer.
I recently got an HP zd7000 for work and occasi
byMrResistor ( 120588 ) writes:
I was wondering the same thing. Apparently the answer is "Anywhere in Canada." Who knew there was a reason to go there?
byCanberra Bob ( 763479 ) writes:
I've been a Linux user for nearly a decade, and I have never found a decent place to get laptops without 'doze
Try here [apple.com] ;-)
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byBrokenHalo ( 565198 ) writes:
Here in Australia, it's pretty easy to get a laptop without Winbloze. You just have to be prepared to talk tough. You get the lowest quote from the shop, then tell them that you want them to remove Windows and any related sticky labels, and that you'll pay them that amount less the Microsoft tax.
Turns out that most of them, even if they do claim to be contractually obliged etc, will oblige for the simple reason that it's a sale they wouldn't otherwise get.
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byJamesTRexx ( 675890 ) writes:
Not everyone has the option "none".
When I bought my laptop through a private pc project at work, we were limited to Dell, and there was no option to leave Windows out of it.
And speaking of Dell, where a lot of people buy their pc's from, they only have an alternative to Windows on specific business pc's, not the consumer versions.
byboaworm ( 180781 ) writes:
Just try getting a laptop without windows? I did. It was easy... I simply selected "None" as the OS.
It can be even easier.. I bought a Mac! :)
byswillden ( 191260 ) * writes:
When piracy is defined as any use that the vendor does not approve of, it's hard to call it a moral issue and to think of the vendor as a victim.
Exactly. This is another variant of the problem that the entertainment content industry has created for itself: By making copyright terms so long that most people don't realize they ever expire, people no longer see copyright as a good trade -- or as any kind of trade at all -- and therefore have no compunction about violating the hell out of it.
It's a slashdot cliche, but it really is true: The more you tighten your grasp, the more copies will slip through your fingers, as the majority simply stops paying attention to your restrictions.
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byAnonymous Coward writes:
Not after we demonstrate the power of these copyright terms. In a way, you have determined the choice of the rights that will be destroyed first. Since you are reluctant to provide us with the location of the P2P base, I have chosen to test these terms' destructive power...on your fair use rights.
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byhazem ( 472289 ) writes:
"Chairman Rosen, I should have expected you holding Holling's leash, I could smell your foul stench when I was brought on board."
byfitten ( 521191 ) writes:
I doubt even limiting copyrights to 1 year would change anything. People copy stuff because they want it *now* and they can get it *now*. They won't simply wait a year when they want it *now*. In the USA, many folks have grown up basically spoiled. Folks just simply don't know how to do without stuff they want that they can't afford when it is easy to get it for free, even if not legal. It doesn't have so much to do with right vs. wrong or "getting back at the establishment" as much as it does satisfyi
bynatet ( 158905 ) writes:
This brings up an interesting point. I don't see Gartner doing a report on the percentage of machines that are shipped with windows on it that are going to be used to run Linux.
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byElectrum ( 94638 ) writes:
just try getting a laptop without Windows
That's odd, my laptop [apple.com] didn't even have the option of coming with Windows.
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byphorm ( 591458 ) writes:
You still need a MacOS... but...
A feel dirty even posting this [macwindows.com], but we use it for the macs that have "essential" windows applications.
byElectrum ( 94638 ) writes:
Apple keeps far tighter control over hardware and OS than Microsoft.
As is expected, considering Apple makes both. If Microsoft made a PC, would you expect it to come with anything but Windows?
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byyuri benjamin ( 222127 ) writes:
If Microsoft made a PC, would you expect it to come with anything but Windows?
Good point, considering the lengths Microsoft goes to keep linux off its customers' xboxes, while Sony, otoh, even brought out a linux kit for its gaming console.
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byThe Infamous Grimace ( 525297 ) writes:
Perhaps the phrase two wrongs don't make a write means something to you?
Yeah, it means I gotta fuck up at least 3 (three) times before someone will issue a written report about it.
(tig)
byTheRaven64 ( 641858 ) writes:
Tell me where I can buy a new Mac without an OS so I can install Yellow Dog?
You've obviously not looked very hard. Try the Yellow Dog website [terrasoftsolutions.com] for machines pre-installed with Yellow Dog. On the other hand, since they cost the same amount as OS X machines, you'd be better off buying one from Apple and then selling the install DVD (which is transferable and can be used, for example, by someone with an older version of OS X)
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byhai.uchida ( 814492 ) writes:
On the other hand, since they cost the same amount as OS X machines, you'd be better off buying one from Apple and then selling the install DVD (which is transferable and can be used, for example, by someone with an older version of OS X)
OS X is also pre-installed on the Yellow Dog machines (I don't think Apple would let them get away with a Linux-only box.) I would assume you get all of the standard install and restore DVD's, too. They're really just acting as a reseller here, selling otherwise stock m
byOrangeTide ( 124937 ) writes:
Funny you should mention YDL. Terrasoft (makers of YDL) are the only Apple authorized reseller allowed to package an Apple product with a different OS [terrasoftsolutions.com].
By default they install a dual-boot setup of YDL and OSX. But from what I've been told you can simply request that you don't want OSX installed. which is good if you want to use the entire drive for YDL.
I'm sorry but Apple fanboys should just stay out of this conversation. Apple keeps far tighter control over hardware and OS than Microsoft.
I'm not sure what your remark about Apple fanboys is all about. Your post has basically asked that a person with an opposing viewpoint need not reply? Why did you bother posting at all if you don't wish to discuss things? (If you didn't notice, I've ignored your request)
Also what does it mean that Apple keeps tighter control over the OS than Microsoft. (obviously not the hardware since MS isn't a hardware company). There are secret APIs in Windows. You need to buy an expensive dev kit if you want to write drivers for Windows. but on OSX you can write a driver for whatever USB dongle you have the specs for, and you can just use the bundled compiler and debugger. And the API docs are posted on apple's website. I MS's site also has freely available docs on devel topics too. From my point of view Apple has kept no more tighter grasp on it's OS than Microsoft has. Perhaps even a looser grasp if you consider that Darwin is completely open source. Am I somehow misinterpreting the point of your original statement?
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byLinuxGuyFriend ( 756285 ) writes:
Let me tell you a little story. Last year, my appartment was broken into and my computers stolen. Of two Windows copies, the insurance company agreed to reimburse only one. Apparently they have problem with paying for software...
Since I keep all my CD keys seperately, I ended up calling MS to get a new key because the old one refused to install on the new computer.
Guess what, they refused to cancel the old one and give me a new one because the license is tied to the stolen hard drive. Great.
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bygnuman99 ( 746007 ) writes:
Guess what, they refused to cancel the old one and give me a new one because the license is tied to the stolen hard drive. Great.
So what happens when the HD dies? I guess this is how MS will be selling a new version of XP to the same customer every few years.
byIDIIAMOTS ( 553790 ) writes:
If something happens to the machine or I just choose to not use it anymore, the Windows license which I PAID FOR is now worthless. In any business besides software, this would be shut down as the racket that it is.
I take it you have never purchased heard of restricted (non-refundable, non-transferrable) airline fares.
Let's just settle the dramatic misunderstanding. The license for which YOU PAID FOR is a restricted license which is sold to you at a discount in exchange for the ability to transfer the li
byswillden ( 191260 ) * writes:
You paid for a non-transferable, limited use license to run XP on the specific machine that you purchased. If you want a transferable license you can get one at Best Buy.
Odds are good that said non-transferable license won't hold up in court, which is probably why Microsoft has never tried to enforce it through legal means. If it makes you feel better about yourself to carefully honor the terms of an invalid and one-sided agreement, go nuts, but don't expect everyone else to do the same.
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byrsilvergun ( 571051 ) writes:
Here in Tucson Arizona We've got a used Book/Game store called Bookmans. Try selling _any_ microsoft stuff there (save Xbox games) and they won't buy it. Microsoft threatened to sue them for buying and selling OEM copies of Windows (98 at the time, but it applies to all OS's now). They won't even buy boxed retail Microsoft software. I tried to sell a copy of Dungeon Seige for Christ's sake and they wouldn't take it.
It's not that they couldn't win, it's that they couldn't afford the lawsuit.
byswillden ( 191260 ) * writes:
If it makes you feel better about yourself to agree to terms you have no intention to honor, using the excuse that MS is evil, go nuts yourself.
You need to take some reading comprehension classes.
I didn't say that one should refuse to honor the terms of the license because MS is evil, I said there's no point in honoring the terms of the license because the terms are illegal, and they're illegal primarily because buyers of Windows never agreed to them.
So, like I said, if you want to abide by terms tha
bybelmolis ( 702863 ) writes:
I have never entered into a contract with Microsoft.
Indeed, the last few machines I have bought had MS Windows pre-installed, so I never even had to click on "I accept" to install it. Under the doctrine of First Sale, in the absence of a contract I can do what I please with the goods that I purchase. Can someone explain to me how Microsoft's wishes could possibly be binding on me?
For me this is a purely hypothetical question since I have no interest in running MS Windows,
but I am perplexed by the idea that Microsoft's
EULA's can be binding on people who either never saw them until after they purchased the software or on people who have never even looked at the EULA. Haven't the courts ruled that such "shrinkwrap licenses" are invalid?
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bySkye16 ( 685048 ) writes:
You're assuming it was definitely there. It may not have been. In which case, it isn't his problem at all, it's the vendor he purchased from.
byGrant_Watson ( 312705 ) writes:
Ignorance is not a defense.
The maxim is, "Ignorance of the law is no defense." Other kinds of ignorance often are.
IANAL, but IIRC you have to have had an opportunity to read a contract before you can agree to it. If you were never presented with it, like the above poster said... well, how can you be bound by it?
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byThe Infamous Grimace ( 525297 ) writes:
Difference here is that with a rental agreement, you sign something. What the parent post is saying is that they never saw the agreement, never clicked 'I agree to the terms', never had the option to click 'I do not agree to the terms', and never signed their name to an agreement.
(tig)
byGonarat ( 177568 ) * writes:
I've got a suggestion. Don't read your rental agreement and don't pay your rent. When they evict you, you can explain you never read the contract. See what happens.
True, but then every rental agreement that I know of has to be signed. I have never rented a place or bought a house where "by putting your key in the lock, you agree to the following rental agreement/morgage agreement. Your presence in the dwelling indicates legal agreement to this contract."
You don't pay your rent or your mortage, the Landlord or Bank has legal, signed documents that they can use to kick your ass out. A EULA doesn't (yet) have that level of validity in most States/Provinces/Countries.
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byAnonymous Brave Guy ( 457657 ) writes:
I've always wondered exactly what grounds microsoft has to pursue legal action against me when it was walmart that I gave my money to for my copy of Windows and my copy of Office.
This is indeed an interesting area of contract law. However, you'd better hope you have some agreement with or permission from Microsoft, because otherwise you're violating their copyright.
byKingKire64 ( 321470 ) writes:
In other news people who build thier own computers have Linux or a pirated version of windows on it a majority of the time also. Why not attack the ppl who build thier own boxen?
Oh thats right they only attack the machines sold with linux cuz they have linux on them.
Sry MS Publicity machine i forgot the rules.
Tinfoil hat on full power
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byPitaBred ( 632671 ) writes:
Just had to give you props for your sig
byAHumbleOpinion ( 546848 ) writes:
Oh thats right they only attack the machines sold with linux cuz they have linux on them.
I don't think so. Building your own box requires a much more tech savy and confident person. I expect that this would be a very small subset of those who are able to install Windows. Secondly no one is really touting the sales of build-your-own while people are referring to sales of Linux PCs.
byALpaca2500 ( 125123 ) writes:
In other news people who build thier own computers have Linux or a pirated version of windows on it a majority of the time also.
i built myself a new pc this year. i ordered all the parts from newegg. i also ordered an OEM copy of windows XP pro. what i installed on my computer was a VLK copy of winXP pro, so i wouldnt have to deal with microsoft's foolish product activation, and any problems that might arise if i radically changed my hardware(because at first, i did not add all the components that i w
byrsilvergun ( 571051 ) writes:
these machines aren't being used to run linux in most cases. It means Linux isn't making as many Desktop converts as it seems/we'd like to see. This of course sucks. We're gonna need lots of regular joe linux users for when Microsoft starts trying to kill it with patents. Otherwise noone's gonna care (noone that matters, anyway), when that happens.
byKartik3 ( 590836 ) writes:
Hey bud, I certainly feel for you....
If you have a legal copy of windows XP you can find out what the key on your machine is by using the "keyfinder" utility found at:
http://www.magicaljellybean.com/
byspiritraveller ( 641174 ) writes:
I wasn't aware that PCs were made by Microsoft. I realize that B. Crew wants every PC to be sold with Windows and makes in very difficult for vendors to do anything but sell them that way, but I am pretty certain it isn't a requirement for Windows to be on every single PC out there.
Indeed. every PC I've ever bought (laptops excluded) came with no operating system.
The last desktop computer I had that came with an operating system was a Commodore 64.
byandrew_0812 ( 592089 ) writes:
This is a good point. And something that has bothered me for a long time. If I have a machine that came with windows, and I wipe it to put linux on it, I should be able to put that version of windows on another machine if I choose to, or give it to a friend. As long as I GIVE it, and I don't use it anymore, it should be Fair Use. But you can't do that with OEM rescue CD's.
Does anyone know if there is a way to get an installable version of Windows off of a rescue CD, or failing that, rebuild the in
byThogScully ( 589935 ) writes:
Why bother? The best case scenario for putting together an install CD from a restore CD is equivalent to the CDs I'm sure you can download in ISO form wherever. It wouldn't be worth the work.
-N
byPig Hogger ( 10379 ) writes:
Does anyone know if there is a way to get an installable version of Windows off of a rescue CD, or failing that, rebuild the install CD from a running version of windows?
In soviet^h^h^h^h^hcroporate Amerika, saying how to do so is a violation of the DMCA.
byJucius Maximus ( 229128 ) writes:
"Does anyone know if there is a way to get an installable version of Windows off of a rescue CD, or failing that, rebuild the install CD from a running version of windows?"
Depends on the rescue CD. Some of them just contain a compressed hard drive image file, so you can't just generate an installable version of windows out of them. Other CDs might contain separately installable OS, drivers, apps, etc.
It should be pretty obvious if you just put the CD in the drive and look at the directory structure.
byajs318 ( 655362 ) writes:
That isn't how it works. The Law of the Land gives you certain rights that are absolutely sacrosanct, and any contract term that tries to abridge them is automatically null and void. Even if you signed the contract in blood, knowing full well that the term was unenforceable. What's more, if the contract does not specifically state that individual clauses are severable, then the entire contract is null and void.
Really, it's no different than if you video-recorded someone asking politely to be beaten up,
bytimeOday ( 582209 ) writes:
That said, Windows users that don't want to pay are pirating Windows, so what else is new? Some of them have some more or less convincing, though not legal justifications, which you listed.
But my point is: this really has nothing to do with Linux.
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byDeepHurtn! ( 773713 ) writes:
But my point is: this really has nothing to do with Linux.
It seems to me like it does -- this is another attempt by MS to legally enforce their de facto monopoly, in this case by making it more difficult to buy computers with Linux preinstalled or with no OS. This FUD is aimed at making it harder to buy a computer without buying Windows, something many Linux users have some interest in.
bybig-giant-head ( 148077 ) writes:
I would'nt get too excited about ANYTHING 'The Gartner Group' has to say. They should rename themselves Bill Gates little Lap dog and kiss a&& group. Thier Bread and butter is windows, loss of the windoze monopoly would spell thier doom. I think in a way this points to Linux getting a larger desktop share, because the 'Garden compost group' is obviously worried enough about it to manufacture a story like this.
BTW I do folks that pirate windows, but they usually build thier own boxes. My neigh
byCitizen of Earth ( 569446 ) writes:
I would'nt get too excited about ANYTHING 'The Gartner Group' has to say. They should rename themselves Bill Gates little Lap dog and kiss a&& group.
They already have an appropriate name. "GARTNER" == "RENTRAG" backwards.
byGonarat ( 177568 ) * writes:
This shows the problem with Windows pricing -- the SRP of Windows is too expense in relation to the cost of the equipment -- in this case, $280. Even with all new equipment and a bigger HD, a new PC can be home built for $300 - $500, depending on options, even a higher end gamer machine can be home-built for under a grand with a little planning.
Now add $99 (XP home upgrade / assumes one has an older Windows) to $299 for XP Professional (full, no upgrade) and the cost of the PC almost doubles (ormore th
byckaminski ( 82854 ) writes:
The tide is already rolling out, dude... With more and more apps end-users are using being delivered online via Java or HTML/DHTML, the home market is RIPE for massive takeover wrt Linux. Firefox is the holy grail for most of the IE only websites. It's really only the business market at this point where application support is suffering. The only reason I haven't switched my dad is Photoshop (the Gimp is really inferior to Photoshop 7), and some accounting packages that do not yet have comparable counterp
bymwood ( 25379 ) writes:
I guess those 40% balance people like me. I currently am licensed to possess more instances of MS Windows than I have installed, since I found something better. (I am NOT saying that that makes it OK to bootleg MS Windows. Don't do that.)
BTW, any statistics from Gartner on what's running on the many, many computers which arrived as parts from three different stores and were assembled by the end user? (Like me, again.)
byreporter ( 666905 ) writes:
According to various reputable sources [salon.com], the rate of software piracy in China (which includes Taiwan province and Hong Kong) exceeds 90%. In other words, the Chinese simply stole 90% of all software used in China.
Since all software is essentially free in China, Linux will have serious trouble in gaining market share in China and other emerging markets. Microsoft Windows is "free", and Linux is free.
That 80% of Linux desktops sold in China is running Windows merely confirms the above analysis.
The prob
bykafka93 ( 243640 ) writes:
Your argument presupposes that 'free' in Linux refers to price. It doesn't. There are other, more important reasons to run the OS than low cost of entry.
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byJohnFluxx ( 413620 ) writes:
No it doesn't
It presupposes that the free price of Linux would otherwise be the major selling point.
That's a different thing to argue. (One I would agree with too)
byArsonSmith ( 13997 ) writes:
The Stole 90% of their software? Wow, at least they didn't steal my copy it's still sitting right here. I wonder who the poor people that got their copies stolen where? Seems like a bunch of people would be complaining if all of a sudden their computer wouldn't boot because someone stole their software.
byquax ( 19371 ) writes:
You assumption is flawed. Your logic only holds if you consider Windows to be superior to Linux. I have to use Windows for work but I generally have a much more pleasant desktop experience with Linux on my own machines.
There have been serious efforts at Chinese home grown Linux distributions such as Ref Flag Linux [redflag-linux.com]. I think this clearly suggests that there are Chinese that consider Linux to be the better OS. Since it is open source they can also have own localization and innovate for better input of Chi
byquax ( 19371 ) writes:
How many of the billion+ Chinese are already using a computer on a daily basis or even own one? According to this article [news.com.au] less then 10% of all Chinese are using the internet.
This strongly suggests that Chinese users will be far less locked into Windows by sheer habit then it is the case in Europe and the US.
Add to this that entering Chinese characters is less then satisfactory with the current technology and you have the opportunity for a challenger to substitute Windows on the desktop in the Chinese ma
byBricklets ( 703061 ) writes:
Ok, how is this post not flamebait? First, it lumps Taiwan and Hong Kong with China. I can understand Hong Kong, but Taiwan??? It rants on how China has no respect for human rights. Fine, but what does the "brutal occupation of Tibet" have anything to do with Windows piracy???
Let's not even mention the logic problems with the only point of his/her entire rant: Windows is free, Linux is free, so Linux will have a hard time competing. In which I reply that just because Windows is free does not mean people wi
byjulesh ( 229690 ) writes:
I paid for my copy of Windows XP and I expect to get my use out of it whether it follows MSFT's rules or not. I would assume the same rings true elsewhere. Who the hell wants to pay 20%+ of their PC cost for Windows if they can't even use it?
Back in 2001, my company purchased a laptop from a well known UK retail chain. That chain had been advertising that the laptop "includes Windows XP Home" (with no notes about any further restrictions on use).
We threatened to sue them. They settled.
byjulesh ( 229690 ) writes:
Personally, when a company lies in their marketing material (e.g. by selling a limited product without mentioning that limitations), I don't feel sueing them is "frivilous". I would describe it instead as "fighting for a fair deal for the consumer".
Also, no lawyers were involved, so they can't have benefited.
bySaeed al-Sahaf ( 665390 ) writes:
Well, no not really. You can't use WinXP unless you agree to their rules. It's in the EULA, and regardless of how you feel about the EULA (it stinks), that's the way it works. Here's a plan: If you can't stand M$ Rules, don't use M$ Products, use the Linux desktop which is perfectly adequate. If you "need" to use M$ Products, it's likely you need it for games or such, well, than you got to pay the M$ Tax...
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byPig Hogger ( 10379 ) writes:
Well, no not really. You can't use WinXP unless you agree to their rules. It's in the EULA, and regardless of how you feel about the EULA (it stinks), that's the way it works.
Utter bollocks. Microsoft, no matter what they say (or do) are not above the LAW.
They can say whatever they want in their EULA, but they can only have courts enforce what is LEGAL.
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byGreyWolf3000 ( 468618 ) writes:
They can say whatever they want in their EULA, but they can only have courts enforce what is LEGAL.
There is a lot in the EULA which would easily hold up in court but really stinks.
bySaeed al-Sahaf ( 665390 ) writes:
They can say whatever they want in their EULA, but they can only have courts enforce what is LEGAL.
Didn't think you made an agreement when you purchased / loaded / used Microsoft's copyrighted operating system? Think again, you most certainly did, regardless of how much you would like to delude yourself into thinking you didn't.
But like I always say, don't like Windows? Don't use it. I know I try not to!
byPig Hogger ( 10379 ) writes:
I paid for my copy of Windows XP and I expect to get my use out of it whether it follows MSFTs rules or not. I would assume the same rings true elsewhere. Who the hell wants to pay 20%+ of their PC cost for Windows if they cant even use it?
No. You paid for a license that lets you use Windows on a very specific the way Microsoft intends it and not otherwise, laws to the contrary be dammed.
byAviLazar ( 741826 ) writes:
Civil Laws can be superseded by contracts, unless the contract violates criminal laws.
For example, in PA there is the "Employment At Will" law which means that an employee can quit anytime s/he desires, and a company can fire an employee anytime s/he desires. Neither party needs to give a reason, and they cannot be held accountable for terminating the employment.
HOWEVER, companies make contracts all the time in PA regarding employment terms of services. These contracts supersede the "Employment at will"
byswschrad ( 312009 ) writes:
but they can't make music like brian wilson did.
you need a written order from God to get a branded computer without the windows virus on it. you can also buy a box full of random parts anyplace, and build a kickass computer with no OS any time you want.
where gartner is pulling this "data" from, I don't know, and I am not about to spend hundreds of dollars to find out. it is so bogus on its face that I can't see how gartner is staying in business.
byAviLazar ( 741826 ) writes:
where gartner is pulling this "data" from, I don't know
It is not too difficult to make the numbers work for you even if they initially did not.
A good example my old macroecon prof told me. Take 40 doctors. Split them into 4 columns (10 each column, like a classroom setting). Ask all of the doctors to fill out a questionnaire if they recommend Crest toothpaste. Lets say column 1 has 5 doctors who recommend it, column 2 has 3 doctors that recommend it, column 3 has 7 doctors who recommend it, and colu
byJohnFluxx ( 413620 ) writes:
Unless I really missed something, this is just way too obvious, and you can't really say that 9 out of 10 doctors... (assuming you got that by just looking at column 4)
A better, and more 'truthful' way would be to divide the doctors into 4 groups, depending on where in the country they are.
Then say "9 out of 10 doctors recommend crest* (*data from survey done for doctors in the south east)"
for example.
byparanode ( 671698 ) writes:
What they fail to realize is that the common factor in pirating Windows is a computer without Windows, not just computers preloaded with Linux. The fact that these computers are being sold with Linux is just a distraction. Many people build their own computers just so they can pirate Windows and not have to pay the higher price to include the OS. Should we then disparage the selling of separate computer components as conducive to Windows piracy?
This is a huge logical fallacy to imply that Linux has an
bydeinol ( 210478 ) writes:
This is a huge logical fallacy to imply that Linux has anything to do with these people's intentions. They are trying to save money and so they buy very cheap pre-built computers and pirate Windows.
This is the real point. I used to work at a local computer store, and they started selling machines pre-loaded with windows. Why? Because of the overwhelming demand for linux? No. Because if they make a cheap box they can put in their big color ad, they can drop a hundred bucks off the price with a little blurb
byrpdillon ( 715137 ) writes:
What really got my attention was the end of the /. blurb:
Gartner's making a bold prediction that the number of machines sold as Linux desktops may eclipse the number of machines actually running Linux."
There are really three categories that are relevant to that number:
(一)Sold as Windows machines, running Linux
(二)Sold as Linux machines, running Windows
(三)Sold as Linux machines, running Linux
(四)Computers built/bought with no OS, running Linux
OK, so right now, in my anecdotal experience (on the desktop) most of
byOrangeTide ( 124937 ) writes:
They should just put NT kernel in ROM and make it so it can't run anything else. Then you really wouldn't be able to run anything but windows on a PC.
Of course that's what these DRM compliant bioses are all about too. This issue will be going away shortly if the new bioses become the standard.
byMooCows ( 718367 ) writes:
This doesn't seem to be an isolated incident.. my brother had the same problem with his new PC.
According to his vendor and the local MS fortress his key was valid .. according to Windows it wasn't. :)
byePhil_One ( 634771 ) writes:
According to his vendor and the local MS fortress his key was valid .. according to Windows it wasn't. :)
This was probably due to using the wrong install CD. The Key checking algorithms are keyed to the versions that are shipped with the machine, so you can't use a consumer key with the Volume License Install CD, or vice versa. Its a pain in my behind, because some of my images got built with the Dell CD, and need a Dell key, and some got built with our VL CD, and need a VL key.
Its possible a smaller vendor is distributing the wrong CD with his legitimate keys (shows horrible QA, BTW)
Of course, given the number of licensed to run Windows PC's I have that are actually running Linux, this just reinforces my thoughts that Gartner sells its soul to whomever is buying this week. "Yes sir, you want an independant study? What would you like the conclusion to say? 3 = 5? Not a problem sir!"
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byAllen Zadr ( 767458 ) * writes:
The Keys are different for "OEM License (what ships on that restore disk)", "Volume License" and "Retail". Most licenses sold are part of an OEM license.
Most likely the original user is trying to use an Install disk to do a dual-boot, but because the only available OEM copy of Windows is an "FDISK, Format and Re-install" recovery disk, he's S.O.L. on using a Retail disk.
The best thing to do is contact the seller of the PC, and ask for a Windows XP OEM installation CD that doesn't FDISK the system first.
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byHoneyBunchesOfGoats ( 619017 ) writes:
Just for completion's sake, there is another set of product keys, for academic / MSDN distributions, which will not work on the distributions mentioned above.
byinstance ( 805660 ) writes:
Actually I think Gartner just knows that 3 == 5... for very large values of 3 and very small values of 5.
If I could short every moronic "market X will expand by {number over 300%} in the next 2 years!" prediction that Gartner produces, I'd be richer than Gates. Anyone who back-checks their predictions can't take these guys seriously. In this case, past performance is a predictor of future results.
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byJAgostoni ( 685117 ) writes:
It has happened to me a couple of times but that was Dell PC in a corporate world so who knows what's going on there.
However, what if you bought the PC used from someone? Did they keep that key for their own use but not remove it from the back of the PC? I could see that as a problem.
byfshalor ( 133678 ) writes:
100% of the PC's I bought with windows now have linux on them. Strange.
Including a quarted of dell 650n's...
The whole problem with this key thing has been its inconsistance. And these keyless restore disks compound the problem. What if someone upgrades their motherboard because something broke? Do I have to make them buy a new copy of windows, or can I just install a fresh copy and say "look the other way, miss, you bought windows, with the computer right. It's not my fault you didn't get the key!"
Ah, we
bySaint Stephen ( 19450 ) writes:
I realize that probably $150 of the cost of my machine was "Microsoft tax." But, it's far superior to own a legal copy than to a pirated copy. Even though it's evil and I prefer Debian, I still need XP for a while to do business with stupid idiots who can't understand OpenOffice and open standards.
byAHumbleOpinion ( 546848 ) writes:
I run a whole lab of linux computers...we wiped out the windows XP [snip] I think many people are wiping out windows and switching to linux
You are assuming your niche lab is representative of the public at large. It is not. From conversations with friends, coworkers, customers, folks at school (both students and faculty), other geeks online, etc. I find that many people who install Linux either dual boot because they are not willing to give up Windows, they are merely experimenting with Linux, and that
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