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The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
byMachineShedFred ( 621896 ) writes:
So what happened to states' rights? Good enough to be able to ban abortions, but not good enough to ban polluting cars, apparently.
More rank hypocrisy from the Republican Party.
bydbialac ( 320955 ) writes:
Smog won't ever entirely go away in California. Some of it is a natural phenomenon caused by air pollution from over the Pacific building up on the mountains. There is talk of smog going back to pre-European days.
byTeun ( 17872 ) writes:
Even if so, why would one not try to limit man made smog?
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byPowercntrl ( 458442 ) writes:
Yes, we know you've been hanging out in /r/fuckcars and believe every straw they've grasped at in order to demonize even sustainable personal transportation options. Human-created smog is primarily the result of nitrogen oxide compounds (NOx) reacting with unburned hydrocarbons. It's the reason why you'll even see things like low NOx gas furnaces [lennox.com] on the market, because that's where the smog is coming from.
Guess what electric cars don't produce at all? NOx and hydrocarbon emissions. In fact, if you truly
bydryeo ( 100693 ) writes:
Yep, would have been better to stick to lead as an anti-knock additive.
byDamnOregonian ( 963763 ) writes:
Hopefully sarcasm, lol.
MTBE isn't great stuff, but at least it biodegrades...
●rrent threshold.
byDamnOregonian ( 963763 ) writes:
Because electric cars don't eliminate or even reduce smog.
Yes, they do.
Most of that smog you see is tire particulate.
No, it's not.
It is true that most particulate emissions from cars is tire and break particulates. However, the nasty shit you see as photochemical smog are nitrogen oxides and various VOCs.
EVs will not increase smog. Nor will they eliminate it entirely. They will reduce it.
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byAmiMoJo ( 196126 ) writes:
EVs do reduce brake dust though. People have reported 100k miles on the original pads, thanks to mostly using regen instead of friction brakes.
byDamnOregonian ( 963763 ) writes:
EVs do reduce brake dust though. People have reported 100k miles on the original pads, thanks to mostly using regen instead of friction brakes.
A fair point.
byrsilvergun ( 571051 ) writes:
Meaning there's a thousand times more tire particulate in the air than there is the stuff you can see with your eyes.
Remember I mentioned that we didn't use to know where tires would go when they wore down. That's because we couldn't see the tire particulate in the air we breathe. It's too small for us to see.
Yeah we do still have some visible smog problems in a lot of cities but to be honest the problem of tire particulate is literally a thousand times worse..
And it would be naive to believe t
byDamnOregonian ( 963763 ) writes:
I'm not at all arguing that tire particulates aren't bad or whatever it is that you envision in your head.
It is, however, a fact that photochemical smog is not particulates.
It's NO2 and VOCs.
You seem to think that cars don't emit these things anymore- but they absolutely do.
Much, much less than they used to- for sure, but there are also 3 times as many cars on the road as there were when catalytic converters became standard.
Cleaning up fossil fuel burning cars isn't a game one can win, because growth w
bydbialac ( 320955 ) writes:
Because electric cars don't eliminate or even reduce smog.
Yes, they do.
No, they don't. They just displace pollution to other places, like the mines that have the rare earth elements for solar panels and batteries and power plants which are already located elsewhere.
byDamnOregonian ( 963763 ) writes:
No, they don't. They just displace pollution to other places, like the mines that have the rare earth elements for solar panels and batteries and power plants which are already located elsewhere.
Incorrect.
All vehicles must be manufactured. The materials for all vehicles must be mined.
However, EVs do not require highly inefficient Otto Cycle engines to convert that chemical energy into kinetic energy.
It will always be less polluting per kWh of vehicle power to convert that chemical energy in a highly efficient dual stage turbine plant, than the shitty internal combustion engine in your car.
Ultimately, you didn't even warrant this response- because you specifically replied to a post about smog.
bydbialac ( 320955 ) writes:
Ultimately, you didn't even warrant this response- because you specifically replied to a post about smog.
(一)Smog:
(二)Fog that has become mixed and polluted with smoke.
(三)A form of air pollution produced by the photochemical reaction of sunlight with hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides that have been released into the atmosphere
(四)A noxious mixture of particulates and gases that is the result of urban air pollution.
Given that it typically takes 5 years of use before a BEV equalizes the emissions of a typical ICE car, and even longer for a hybrid (depending on the design, that can be never!), we're back to my point: BEVs
byDamnOregonian ( 963763 ) writes:
Fog that has become mixed and polluted with smoke.
That one is dubious. I've never heard anyone mistake a temperature inversion with smog.
A form of air pollution produced by the photochemical reaction of sunlight with hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides that have been released into the atmosphere
Indeed. Something that is uniquely cased by tailpipe emissions.
A noxious mixture of particulates and gases that is the result of urban air pollution.
Indeed. Again- something uniquely created by tailpipe emissions.
It's not something that can be displaced.
Given that it typically takes 5 years of use before a BEV equalizes the emissions of a typical ICE car
15-20k miles, actually. About 1 year.
re back to my point: BEVs just displace the pollution ("smog") from a car to somewhere else.
By your own, literal fucking admission, not as long as you drive it long enough to break even. At that point, you are reducing them, and that's fucking undeniable.
bydbialac ( 320955 ) writes:
Fog that has become mixed and polluted with smoke.
That one is dubious. I've never heard anyone mistake a temperature inversion with smog.
I don't know what country you're in (you use KM, not miles), but that came out of the The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition, so that wasn't my call.
Given that it typically takes 5 years of use before a BEV equalizes the emissions of a typical ICE car
15-20k miles, actually. About 1 year.
I guess if you take a small car and stack up everything against a massive SUV, including your power source, you can get there. Again, though, you can't touch what a hybrid can do if built properly, and that's where the market is going these days. And that's fucking undeniable.
re back to my point: BEVs just displace the pollution ("smog") from a car to somewhere else.
By your own, literal fucking admission, not as long as you drive it long enough to break even. At that point, you are reducing them, and that's undeniable.
And then you have to replace the battery, and you've l
byDamnOregonian ( 963763 ) writes:
I guess if you take a small car and stack up everything against a massive SUV, including your power source, you can get there. Again, though, you can't touch what a hybrid can do if built properly, and that's where the market is going these days. And that's fucking undeniable.
Incorrect. That's average to average.
As for the "hybrid" side- there are cases where a hybrid is the better choice. But they're a minority of them.
For average use, an EV is still cleaner.
And then you have to replace the battery, and you've largely reset everything.
Flatly untrue.
You're lying to try to make a point.
byPsychoSlashDot ( 207849 ) writes:
Because electric cars don't eliminate or even reduce smog. Most of that smog you see is tire particulate. We've been running zero emissions cars from most vehicles for a while now. We do have a problem with idling semi trucks but they mostly do that outside city limits. Most of the smog you're seeing is coming from little bits of tire.
It's one of those things where scientists wondered for years were tires went because they aren't on the roads and it turns out the answer is in your lungs.
Electric cars if anything are going to make smog worse. They're heavier and they burn through tires faster because of it.
Nobody wants to hear this because this is a forum full of old farts and we don't like change and we want to keep driving our cars and our SUVs.
There are some upsides to electric cars, specifically it drastically reduces our dependency on foreign oil which is a good thing for all kinds of reasons. And in theory if we all switched to renewables and we might get a small but noticeable improvement to climate change. Although keep in mind the energy needed to build out and maintain electric cars means it's not going to be night and day.
If you actually want clean air and to fight climate change you need walkable cities and public transportation. Try not to worry about the government controlling where you go because give it a few years and you'll be stuck in a self-driving car anyway, never mind that the government still needs to build the roads so they still decide where you're going to go.
But again change sucks and we all grew up playing with toy cars so nobody wants to hear it. And because most of us are older we are probably going to be dead before the problems really hit. Kind of fucked up to leave the mess to our kids though...
So, while what you point out is true, or at least true-adjacent, the devil is in the details.
First up, the assertion that BEVs don't eliminate or reduce smog is incorrect. I can find plenty of studies indicating that tire particles pollute soil, water, and air, I couldn't find any that indicate the air pollution is in the form of smog. And I couldn't find anything indicating what amount of the tire particle pollution is airborne. Or for how long it lingers. Or how far it travels. Doing a little digging I found that smog actually has specific chemical properties, which rubber compounds are not. Carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide - for instance - are gasses, which will mix with air while solids - no matter how small - will not.
Again, I grant that tire pollution is in many cases more abundant than tailpipe emissions. But again, the studies I found indicated that based on mass. Grams and tonnes. That doesn't directly translate to how concerning something is. Some pollutants are more impactful than others for a given mass. The studies are clear that there are "toxic chemicals" released from tires, but not so clear about the relative harms. Yet. I accept more study is warranted.
Worse though, is that bringing this up disregards a few things. For instance that the mass comparisons are against modern engines, which are massively less polluting than older engines. The process of making engines less polluting is important and got us where we are. Also, it really depends what is being compared. CO2 is a pollutant that is still being emitted in large quantities by ICE cars, but not by BEVs (depending on the electricity generation source).
Finally there's the unfortunate logical fallacy that because one thing is a problem, other problems can be disregarded. There are in the ballpark of 8 billion people. We can work on improving/eliminating tailpipe emissions simultaneously with reducing/eliminating tire pollution and simultaneously looking for cures for cancer. To follow up, that cancer exists does not justify stopping looking for cures for diabetes.
The bottom line being that what your post is interesting, it's also distraction. I know there's more in there and that you too are encouraging looking at the big picture, but the tire stuff sets an unfortunate tone.
Read the rest of this comment...
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byrsilvergun ( 571051 ) writes:
Is only getting started and that's why you're not finding as much about it being in the air but the thing about it is and about that research for decades we had no idea what happened to tires as they wore down. We literally just didn't think about it and I doubt that was an accident.
The point of the studies and articles that you've read is that the tire particulate isn't being found in the soil and it's not being found on the ground and it's not covering our buildings and cars and that means it's got to
byPowercntrl ( 458442 ) writes:
The point of the studies and articles that you've read is that the tire particulate isn't being found in the soil and it's not being found on the ground and it's not covering our buildings and cars and that means it's got to be somewhere else.
Did you literally just forget that storm drains are a thing?
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byrsilvergun ( 571051 ) writes:
And neither did the people studying tire particulate. It wasn't in the water supply and it would be if storm drains got it. Also if it was getting washed away into storm drains we would see it all over the fucking place in the desert regions like Arizona and New Mexico and California because they don't get much rain. So it would have time to build up and be noticeable.
The entire point of the studies was they solved the mystery of where tires go when they wear down and the answer is they turn into such a
byPowercntrl ( 458442 ) writes:
The EPA has an article [epa.gov] on where the particles from tire wear ultimately end up. It was posted during the Biden administration, so it's not a MAGA propaganda piece (yet).
In a nutshell, most of it ends up in the water. Now, I'm not saying that's a good thing; obviously, it's still pollution. But the point of the EV transition isn't to eliminate all pollution, just to reduce/eliminate (depending on the cleanliness of the grid power they're recharging from) CO2, NOx and VOC emissions, which EVs absolutely do
byBarsteward ( 969998 ) writes:
"We spent the last 60 years cleaning exhaust out of our air. And that's all well and good, but what I'm saying is the exhaust is mostly gone" - ROFL.. put hosepipe onto your tailpipe and put the other end into the cabin and go for a drive - then give us an assessment of "mostly gone"
byspitzak ( 4019 ) writes:
No, smog is not "tire particulates". That is a different type of pollution.
bythegarbz ( 1787294 ) writes:
Most of that smog you see is tire particulate.
No, most smoke you see caused by EVs are tire particulates. You left out that qualifier. Most actual smog is NOx emissions and their decomposition into Ozone. It used to be SOx emissions too but we addressed that in fuel composition. Nearly 100% of smog in a city that doesn't have a coal fired power plant is caused by car exhaust.
Less Fox and Friends for you. The brainrot is real but it shouldn't be irreversible.
bythegarbz ( 1787294 ) writes:
We've been running zero emissions cars from most vehicles for a while now.
What the fuck are you smoking? The places with the highest zero emission penetration in the world don't even come close to the definition of "most vehicles" and that place is orders of magnitude higher in percentage of zero emission vehicles than any place in America.
How is it that literally every sentence in your first 3 paragraphs is pure bullshit. Like not a single thing you said was correct. None of it.
●ath your current threshold.
bywill4 ( 7250692 ) writes:
Conjecture: Ford or GM will stop selling most vehicles in California by 2035 and only sell a rebranded EV made by another company
● your current threshold.
●your current threshold.
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