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It's important that this article not just represent what atheists/scientists think of anecdotal evidence, but that it is representative of the treatment of anecdotal evidence in philosophy, religion, history, law, and so forth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:152:4C7C:1D0:A18E:6D23:2A5E:8FC4 (talk) 04:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
Raymond Wolfinger, in his 1969-1970 lecture season, uttered the perceptive bon mot "The plural of anecdote is data". This concisely states the fundamental problem with anecdotal evidence and the way to resolve that problem - any single anecdote is insufficient for most scientific purposes, but gathering multiple empirical reports and reducing them properly can yield a falsifiable hypothesis or suggest an experimental path.
On Internet discussion boards and forums, the inverted phrase "the plural of anecdote is NOT data" is used as a rhetorical attack to discredit evidence contrary to one's position. If a commenter posts "hard shoes wreck your feet" and another commenter posts "I wear hard shoes and my feet are fine" the original poster can either correct his original position statement (to "hard shoes can damage feet" perhaps) or he can retort "the plural of anecdote is not data" as a form of ad-hominem attack.
Attachment to the "is NOT data" form has reached a level of devotion in some forums that can best be described as fanatical; any report of any sort can be discredited and its author vilified by invocation of this meme. Dr. Wolfinger's deceptively simple and correct statement has essentially been eclipsed by legions of chanting trolls.
Re-reading this discussion in light of this information may be illuminating... note also that the attribution given on the page is unsupported. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.153.180.229 (talk) 20:46, 19 October 2010 (UTC)Reply
":The only time a sample size of 1 is statistically valid is when you're disproving a conclusion that claims to be correct for 100% of the population in question (which really only happens in logical arguments, not statistical arguments). So, if you're trying to make the argument that cigarettes don't cause cancer, the argument is flawed because the statistical evidence you're arguing from is too weak to support the conclusion. However, the exact same anecdotal evidence could be used to support a very strong argument that cigarettes don't always cause cancer, so to say that an argument is fallacious just because the evidence it's based on is anecdotal is clearly wrong. --Flatline 17:05, 3 January 2006 (UTC)" Reply
All single statistic points are valid if gathered factually. The conclusion gained from the statistic is what is invalid
>Statistically valid" used that way, is not used on the evidence, it is used on the conclusion. The conclusion isn't statistically valid because the statistics are incomplete, not because the evidence is invalid. If a statistic is invalid it is incorrect. All statistics are valid unless incorrect. The statistics gathered may be valid but insufficient to produce any valid statistically conclusion. <
--Eric Norby 11:11(PST), 2006, January 17 (AD)
And as you say it can be valid if you are using the single datum to point out that not 100 percent of the points are inside some conclusion.
>The datum used in a counter example will only be invalid if it is a "flyer", a point that may have come from measurement or experimental error. That is determined at the time of the test/sample. If the statistic is undeniably correct, it is not a flyer, it is a valid statistic. Counter examples are used to invalidate a statistically incorrect conclusion< --Eric Norby 11:11(PST), 2006, January 17 (AD)
It is not the evidence that is invalid. It is the conclusion.
A person falling from a height of 2000 feet up didn't die. Does that mean that falling from great height doesn't lead to great death? No but it is valid that falls from great height don't kill everyone.
It is anecdotal to say that falls from great height don't kill.
>My example was a rewrite of the cancer one. I'm going to try another rewrite of the current definition from what someone else has put forth. Anecdotal evidence should be short data that supports a point. Like anecdote means short story to support a point. It has come to mean short evidence that appears to support but doesn't a conclusion. That conclusion may be false. < --Eric Norby 11:11(PST), 2006, January 17 (AD)
Is it statistically valid that I dropped a hammer and it fell. Yes.
>Exactly. Statistical validity is a term used on a conclusion, not on the statistics. There is no difference between statistics and facts. If taken using proper scientific tools both will be scientific facts. Using facts in statistical mathematics is using facts statistically. Statistics is a collection of scientific facts.
I suppose you have a point that there are "Lies, dam lies and statistics." ;)
What do you consider to be the definition of a statistic?< --Eric Norby 11:11(PST), 2006, January 17 (AD)
Is it wrong to say, "Therefore gravity must still exist." No. Does the single datum give conclusive evidence to that statement? Yes and no. It does support it, and isn't conclusive.
Being a single datum doesn't lead to statistically erroneous data. Using a single point in an attempt to support an incorrect conclusion, is using the data anecdotally, and a weak statistical conclusion. The datum is still correct and valid.
The statistical evidence isn't too weak to support the conclusion. The conclusion is weak because the evidence given doesn't fully support it. The evidence is just as correct as it always was. There is nothing wrong with the evidence.
Anecdote is a short story given to support a larger paper. Anecdotal evidence is supposed to be short evidence to support an anecdote. It has turned into, short evidence that doesn't support an anecdote.
"Charlie's grandmother lived to 95", is anecdotal if you use it to support the point that smoking doesn't cause cancer, however, it isn't anecdotal if used to support the point that not all smokers die of lung cancer.
For you information, that evidence doesn't support "that cigarettes don't always cause cancer", because that person may have had cancer but had not yet grown to significance, or if she had lived long enough she would have gotten it.
" :I agree that it is incorrect to say that anecdotal evidence is pseudoscientific. It would be more correct to say that anecdotal evidence is unscientific. However, generally speaking, it is correct to say that it is statistically unverified since if the anecdote were statistically verified, the argument would be based instead on the far stronger statistical evidence and not the anecdotal evidence. --Flatline 17:05, 3 January 2006 (UTC) " Reply
How can a statistic be "statistically unverified". Is it not a statistic? Is it not verifiable? The evidence given is absolutely correct. The error is assuming it supports something that it doesn't.
" :You're correct: the conclusion is too strong for the evidence given. But this does not support your argument that anecdotal evidence necessarily supports fallacious conclusions. --Flatline 17:05, 3 January 2006 (UTC) " Reply
But it does support my conclusion that the "support" is fallacious, therefore the conclusion is unwarranted.
It is a fallacy of support. The evidence is correct, the conclusion often is not, and the support is fraudulent. It is a scientific fallacy of fraudulent support, assuming logical support where none is apparent.
" :It is a false dichotomy to claim that data can't be both anecdotal and false. --Flatline 17:05, 3 January 2006 (UTC) " A false dichotomy is where two choices are given when there are three or more.Reply
You should either call a fallacy by its most correct name or not. I don't see a valid reason for calling a fallacy by more than one name.
If you use false data for supporting an anecdote, it is much more correct to point out the falsehood of the data.
"Charlie's grandmother died at age 95....etc.", if that data were incorrect, it wouldn't support the anecdote. The anecdote would be left null and void. It would be far wiser to point out that Charlie's grandmother was diagnosed with cancer a week before she was hit by a car, and her health was poor a result of heart problems and emphysema.....and her lungs were found full of charcoal, ash, and tar, than it would to say, "that is anecdotal". False data doesn't make it to the anecdotal fallacy stage.
Sure it can be used incorrectly that way, but the best and most correct defense is derived from false data fallacy rather than the anecdotal fallacy.
The anecdotal fact must be indisputable by both parties, or the evidence will be under attack, the support lost from the beginning. Good data that appears to support an unsupported claim is what anecdotal evidence fallacy is all about.
I don't know Charlie's grandmother, I don't know what her health was, I've never heard of anyone smoking till 95 and being in good health. That is the correct defense, if the data given were "weak or poorly collected". If good data, the only defense is to enter wider more comprehensive data.
If you don't use that defense, the person giving the anecdote can say, 'The data refute it either, and it sure seems to refute the alternate claim.' Your point, that his point is wrong, because his data is incorrect, is lost.
" :Pseudoscientific data is unscientific data that is packaged to appear as scientific data. I don't see how this is relevant to the definition of anecdotal evidence.
Not anecdote.
It can be personal or drawn from worldly scientific study. It is the way the data was used not the data.
Data is either scientific or false.
Packaging data to support a pseudoscientific claim, is called anecdotal, suppression of data, or false data, or unreliable data, depending on which flaw the pseudoscience is based on. Again, it is the claim that is pseudoscientific. Taking data pseudoscientifically produces false or unreliable data. Anecdotal evidence translates directly to short data or incomplete data.
The origin of a set of data determines its reliability not its anecdotal quality. If you measure gravity with poor equipment a calendar, you will get a poor value for "g". However, none of that information is anecdotal. If "Charlie's grandmother died at age 95...." the reliability is easily checked, but the use of it can be in anecdote or correctly. Note: It used to be that saying that proves not all smokers die of lung cancer was using the data anecdotally, but it has come to mean a scientific fallacy. The fallacy is one of support.
The strongest defense in that case is to show how the data is unreliable. It can still be an anecdotally incorrectly supported claim if the data is 100% accurate. The point is the correctness of the data raises the fallacy from poor data to another fallacy, that can be suppression of data, or unsupported anecdote.
The statement "anecdotal evidence" now implies the evidence is in error, but in reality, it used to imply that the evidence is short.
" :But not an orthogonal label. Any unverifiable anecdotal evidence would be considered poor data. Any anecdotal evidence, even readily verifiable, would be considered poor data if used to support a statistical conclusion since it is not framed in a meaningful statistical context. --Flatline 17:05, 3 January 2006 (UTC) " Again, it is the conclusion that is poor, not the evidence. If the evidence were poor, it would be false data.Reply
" :Since when is it a fallacy to reference a relevant authority? Unless you have reason to doubt the authority of the reference or can demonstrate that there is no consensus of experts in the field, I am inclined to trust this reference. --Flatline 02:58, 5 January 2006 (UTC) " It is not a fallacy to reference a relevant authority. It is a fallacy to conclude that the reference to the relevant authority's conclusion, is proof that the conclusion is correct or even relevant.Reply
You must present the authority's logic or data to prove your point. The fallacy was that you used his conclusion as a definitive statement. The debate here gains nothing. In fact I only have your word, here, that the "authorities" conclusion is relevant or a correct use of his words. I don't even know if he is the kind of authority you claim him to be. I also used that statement in punishment to the fact that you removed my earlier post.
Note: My earlier post just referenced your logical flaw by presenting logic and data. You are the one that chose to remove it.
Do a search on logical fallacies and look up Ipse dixit to get an alternate explanation to mine.
" :The data was incorrect. Your new article is similarly incorrect. --Flatline 02:58, 5 January 2006 (UTC) " The data was correct. My article is more correct than the one before it. It is evolving and improving. I'm thinking of adding the idea that anecdote is short story, hence, anecdotal evidence originally meant short data it has come to mean incomplete data, given to produce and erroneous conclusion.Reply
" :I gave my reasoning on this very discussion page. In fact, you are responding to it now. --Flatline 02:58, 5 January 2006 (UTC) " If so I apologize.Reply
It appeared to disappear, rather than become debated.
" :Please refrain from insults and name calling. It is inappropriate and distracts from the task of improving the article. --Flatline 02:58, 5 January 2006 (UTC) " Since you have now shown a willingness to respond to debate, I will delete the challenging personal parts of my posts.Reply
--Eric Norby 09:57(PST), 2005, 29 December (AD)
Trying again.
Example: My grandmother smoked her whole life and lived to 96 without dying of lung cancer. That shows cigarettes don't cause cancer. Is an example of using anecdotal evidence. However, there is nothing scientifically nor statistically wrong with the data.
So the definition that the data is often pseudoscientific or statistically unverified is incorrect. In fact, the evidence given can be shown to occur often, so the "singular" part of the definition not valid.
The fallacy is that the evidence doesn't support the conclusion. The conclusion that smoking doesn't cause cancer is erroneous. The correct statement would have been, Smoking doesn't always cause cancer many people including my grandmother have lived to 96 or so and not died of lung cancer while being smokers all their lives.
Additional evidence showing that 90 percent of lung cancer cases are smokers relates the more relevant statistic. A large range of other experimental discoveries, and statistical, linking studies shows the mountain of proof that smoking is hard on your health. Science is about verifying things from a wide range of study, not one specific study, no matter how correct that study is.
At the worst anecdotal evidence is good solid data from a single study. All that was studied was those people living past age 90 that didn't die of cancer. Poor scientific conclusion. Perhaps poor study habits (Hand picking data, similar to data suppression but without intent.). But the data is absolutely correct and collected reliably.
If it weren't it would be false data.
If it weren't it would be pseudoscientific data.
Not anecdote.
It can be personal or drawn from worldly scientific study. It is the way the data was used not the data.
Poor data has an entirely different label.
Anecdotal evidence is evidence used to falsely support a conclusion, given in an anecdote. The evidence given isn't wrong, the implied support is lacking.
--Eric Norby 2005 January 02, 10:10, (PST)
This is not explained. Please explain. 86.11.84.3 23:00, 2 July 2006 (UTC)Reply
In an episode of Dilbert, the cartoon show, Dogbert uses anecdotal evidence to persuade the public that they have work disabilities. Dilbert repetitively argues against the use of anecdotal evidence, but is proven wrong as Dogbert's evil plan unfurls and succeeds once again.
Sorry, as someone who has never (?) seen the show I don't understand this. Please rewrite this passage or preferably don't put it back into the article at all. <KF> 01:29, Dec 31, 2004 (UTC)
This idea that anecdotal evidence only supports fallacious conclusions is wrong. Anecdotal evidence is simply evidence that comes from personal experience rather than designed scienfic experiments.
For example, if I know someone who was killed by a gun, then I can use that as anecdotal evidence that guns can kill people which is a verifiably correct conclusion even though it was arrived at through anecdotal evidence.
While it is true that anecdotal evidence is very weak evidence and is dangerous to depend on, this article goes too far when it claims that anecdotal evidence can only support an incorrect conclusion. --Flatline 17:29, 17 December 2005 (UTC)Reply
The new article by Orzetto addresses my concerns. Thank you, Orzetto. --Flatline 14:32, 21 December 2005 (UTC)Reply
The problems we are wrestling with on the definition of Anecdotal Evidence.
Truth: If the evidence is false, the fact that it is used in an anecdote is moot. The evidence is false, not anecdotal. It won't help to have poorly gathered data for the same reason, it is untrustworthy data, not anecdotal data. The data must be true or it supports nothing.
Personal: All evidence is observed from some personal position. It takes a person to observe data. Where the data comes from is unimportant to science. What is important to science is that it is verifiable and repeatable. The reason the data is often irrefutably true is because both sides of the anecdote often know the data is reported correctly from personal experiences. Drop a hammer on Earth and it will fall. It only needs to be true, not personal.
Singular: Often, but not always, users of anecdotal evidence quote more than one case. Therefore, singularity is not a required property of anecdotal evidence. Singularity is anecdotal evidence supporting the point that anecdotal evidence must be singular.
Anecdote: Evidence is science, the anecdote is what the evidence has been chosen to support.
Conclusion: The anecdote is the conclusion that the evidence was selected to support.
If the evidence supports a true conclusion, there is no surrounding evidence to prove the anecdotal nature. The conclusion then becomes a hypothesis or immature point, not an anecdote.
A scientific hypothesis takes data and attempts to fit a model to it. That data must be verifiable as is the data for an anecdote. The difference is, there is data that proves the anecdotal conclusion wrong, where the hypothesis remains a hypothesis until more data supports it or refutes it. If the hypothesis is claimed after refuting evidence is found, it becomes and anecdote supported by the earlier incomplete evidence.
If a conclusion is stated as verified by the data, the conclusion is immature. The cure for the immature conclusion is to point out additional evidence that could also explain the outcome.
Anecdotal evidence is an incorrect premise gained and supported by incomplete scientific data. The cure is to supply the complete data.
Premature conclusion is based on immature scientific data. Data gained without a full scientific investigation. Show additional possibilities.
The two are closely related but not the same.
The fallacy in anecdotal evidence is shown by the complete data.
The fallacy in the incomplete conclusion is shown by alternate explanations.
Smoking doesn't cause lung cancer, because many people have lived to 95 dying from other factors not relating to smoking or cancer, is anecdotal. The more complete evidence, that 90+ percent of the lung cancer cases were smokers, shows the fallacy. The anecdote exposed by more complete data, stops the necessity of more study.
Eating limes prevents scurvy, because Charlie ate them last voyage and didn't get scurvy, is a hypothesis or immature conclusion. There was no other supporting evidence to refute the claim. Being that it lacked falsifying data, more study was appropriate. Charlie ate a new thing he made and calls "aspirin" that voyage also, would lend addition avenues (Now both could be true.).
Quasars are powered, or not, by black holes, are premature conclusions. There is insufficient data to rule out either point. It is hard to know much about energy sources billions of light years away.
Hand picked data leads to false anecdotes.
Incomplete data leads to immature conclusions.
--Eric Norby 12:12, 26 December 2005 (UTC)Reply
"Okay, flipping through one of my philosophy textbooks from college (Invitation to Critical Thinking, by Joel Rudinow and Vincent Barry), in the chapter "Informal Fallacies of Evidence" they list a fallacy which they call the fallacy of suppressed evidence. From their discription, this fallacy matches the description that you've given for anecdotal evidence, except that in their description, the evidence can come from any kind of source (not just personal anecdotes)."
The above is a logical fallacy called "Ipse Dixit", "so his master says".
There is no reason for "Anecdotal Evidence" to be restricted to "personal anecdote". The better the data given the more it appears to support a fallacious anecdote. It is the logical leap to the conclusion where the anecdote errors, not in the data. The data is too incomplete to verify that conclusion.
--Eric Norby 09:57, 2005, 29 December (UTC)
I had a go at a rewrite. The previous version, apart from being a hatchet job on those who use the term, contained a number of errors: particularly the claim that it isn't used in legal discourse. The idea that courts have some mechanism superior to science for checking witness testimony isn't true either: a search on "cognitive bias" + eyewitness will find various ongoing research that suggests the opposite. Courts still place a lot of reliance on unreliable cues such as witness confidence and detail of recollection. Tearlach 02:28, 19 January 2006 (UTC)Reply
Minor vandalism deleted. The Invisible Anon 10:15, 2 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Comment restored in edited form I'm sorry about the previous phraseology: however, expressing ideas that 86.10.231.219 dislikes is not vandalism. In fact its removal suggests it hit the nail on the head.
I suspect an agenda here. Claimed proof of efficacy of alternative therapies depends heavily on anecdotal evidence, which has easily analysed weaknesses such as the cognitive bias that applies to all unstructured human observation and recollection. Therefore believers in such therapies might well be expected to spin the term as being ill-defined, and to bury clear description of its characteristics and problems in a mess of obfuscation. 213.130.141.76 13:44, 2 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
The case report is an invaluable tool in medicine, and it is still anecdotal evidence Vandenbroucke JP. In defense of case reports and case series. Ann Intern Med 2001;134(4):330-4. PMID 11182844. Worth linking to. JFW | T@lk 23:39, 21 January 2006 (UTC)Reply
The intro says "Anecdotal evidence is a term used in medical [...] discourse". It is very useful for this article. JFW | T@lk 08:41, 22 January 2006 (UTC)Reply
The term "anecdotal evidence" has a wider scope than 86.10.231.219 is suggesting. JFW | T@lk 19:10, 23 January 2006 (UTC)Reply
Take care. It is easy to merge or flow in thinking from one evidence concept to another. The cherrypicking point goes to the use of the evidence and its reliabilityasproof. Evidence is just information. It does not matter what source it comes from. The next issue is whether the information is reliable - is it authentic, is it accurate and is it complete (the whole story). So you test it.
The one factor that differentiates what is normally considered witness testimony from what is often considered anecdote is the lack of formal documentation of the evidence. The point is that it is all witness evidence whether as informal "anecdote" or formally documented testimony. For example the Don Lindsay link states "Suppose I tell you that I thought of a long-lost friend. Just then the phone rang, and it was my old friend. That's a nice anecdote." That is also witness evidence. Whether or not it proves anything depends on the proposition being put and the other evidence available. It would support a proposition that the old friend telephoned or that the old friend either has or had access to a telephone at that particular time. It tends to support the proposition that precognition exists, but alone it does not prove it exists nor does it prove this was anything other than a co-incidence. If such a thing never ever happened, that would support a proposition that precognition does not exist, but again it does not prove it does not. More evidence is needed, and then you have to decide to what standard you want to prove something.
Evidence is a tough topic for many people. It can be just as tough as some topics in philosophy. It shares a great deal in common with the philosophy of knowledge.
This page is dealing with what "anecdotal evidence" is and proof and standards of proof and other kinds of evidence are all part of the matrix of Wikipedia pages dealing with this complex topic. It is all too easy to flow in your thinking from one discrete concept to another. That is one of the reasons people have found it so tough to get this page straight.
I do hope that assists and I also hope it does not come across as patronising. There is a great risk it will and it does not imply I underestimate your ability or overestimate mine. I just want to be as clear as I can on something I know it is far too easy to confuse. The Invisible Anon 02:31, 1 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
There has been edit war between this version and this version. [3]
Please place your RfC discussion below. JustinWick 20:16, 6 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
HOAX RfC WARNING - DISPUTED NOTE: Suggest delete this RfC and a block on 213.130.141.147 - This RfC was posted by an anon 16:24, 4 February 2006 213.130.141.147 whose only contribution to Wikipedia is this RfC [[4]]. See also the anon's "contribution" [[5]] from a very similar IP address 213.130.141.72 (emphasis added)『Proof of efficacy of woo-woo therapies depends heavily on anecdotal evidence』 Anon clearly knows his/her way around Wiki procedures. Believe know who this is - unsuccessful edit warrior from other pages. The Invisible Anon 08:47, 7 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
THE "HOAX" STATUS OF THIS RfC HAS BEEN CHALLENGED BELOW - JustinWick 20:14, 7 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
And CHALLENGE ANSWERED below The Invisible Anon 23:22, 7 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
RfC - I believe this version is better as it contains a references section. I'm a curious as to the existence of any trustworthy sources that assert that the concept of "Anecdotal Evidence" is contraversial. - JustinWick 20:16, 6 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
RfC - The "no universal common usage of or accepted general meaning for Anecdotal evidence" claim should remain if authoritative citations are given to prove this (e.g. quoting valid sources that have conflicting definitions). --Wade A. Tisthammer 20:32, 6 February 2006 (UTC):Reply
RfC - The hoax warning on the RfC page worries me. There is a genuine controversy here and the anonymous poster presented it fairly. It might have been a simple oversight, such as forgetting to log in manually after cleaning out one's cookies file. The call to block the IP was an inappropriate suggesion. That said, I'd go with the shorter version of the article until someone contributes a Wikified and referenced expansion. At an article about evidence this type of comment shouldn't be necessary. Durova 10:45, 7 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
All of the definitions are at odds with each other - that there is no accepted general meaning is demonstrated - the evidence is produced
Your supposed evidence isn't demonstrating anything. I hope we agree that there's general agreement as to what a lemon is. Yet the dictionary definitions are all different, just different takes on describing the same thing. This is true for probably all words. Any attempt at consensus or specific attempt at improving the article is pointless unless you drop the mistaken assumption that such differences mean something. Tearlach 20:16, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
1a. A spiny, Asian evergreen tree (Citrus limon) widely cultivated for its yellow, egg-shaped fruit. b. The fruit of this tree, having a yellow aromatic rind and juicy, acid pulp. 2. Lemon yellow. 3. Informal One that is unsatisfactory or defective: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000
1. A pale yellow oval citrus fruit with acid pulp. 2. The tree that bears it. 3.A pale yellow colour. 4.Something disappointing, worthless, unattractive, unpleasant (slang) Chambers Twentieth Century Dictionary
1. a pale yellow oval citrus fruit with thick skin and fragrant, acidic juice; a drink made from or flavoured with lemon juice. 2.the evergreen citrus tree which produces lemons. 3.a pale yellow colour. 4. (informal) an unsatisfactory person or thing. Concise Oxford English Dictionary
In reply
RFC - FX: sigh. I was going to leave this page alone, but as the original poster of the shorter version, I will comment. I think the longer version isn't very informative: it seems to be quibbling about definitions at the expense of a clear concise picture of the topic. I'm also worried about the hoax claim and block request. There clearly is the beginnings of an edit war, and the RFC statement is as neutral as it gets. I don't buy the argument, expressed at length below, that the variation in dicdefs means there's "no universal common usage of or accepted general meaning". Dicdefs of all words and terms show similar variation. Tearlach 12:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
RfC - On 16 Dec 2005 an edit was made that completely changed the tone of the article. The motivation for that is unclear, as nothing is in the talk page on the reason Eric Norby made the edits. Quickly, however, uncivil bahavior erupted. It appears that this article is being used as a place for surrogate arguments related to anecdotal evidence. The article up to 12 Dec 2005 was written in NPOV style, though not enough emphasis was given to be utility of anecdotal evidence in hypothesis generation. Currently there has been a shift to legalese. This would be appropriate in an article on evidence in a courtroom setting, but not a general article on what is meant by anecdotal evidence. The arguments about there being different dictionary definitions of a word and thus the term not having meaning is specious. Most words in a dicitonary have several definitions. That merely shows that words have nuances of usage or even different meanings in different contexts. The use of anecdotal evidence was very clear from the initial verisons of the article and did represent the most common usage of the term. Kd4ttc 17:23, 11 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Preamble - The current text of this Wiki page brings together in one definition all of the different kinds of use of the term "anecdotal evidence" and provides a comprehensive and accurate definition of how the term is used. This page is solely concerned with what "anecdotal evidence" is in all its forms and meanings. This page does not deal with concepts of proof or reliability of evidence. See the Wiki topic evidence and it will be seen that it is made up of numerous discrete elements spread across numerous pages each dealing with an element of evidence. Evidence is a complex subject and it can be seen from the talk page and from the different versions of the page that some editors have been inadvertently combining and confusing several different evidential concepts and bringing them to this page (in innocence but in error).
Definitions/Interpretations The following are a smattering of examples - there are many conflicting definitions and descriptions of the term.
"anecdotal"『Report of clinical experiences based in individual cases, rather than an organised
investigation with appropriate controls, etc.』Origin: G. Anekdota, unpublished items, fr.
An-priv + ekidomi, to publish - [[21]]
"anecdotal" adjective - describes information that is not based on facts or careful study:
anecdotal evidence [[22]]
"1 entry found for anecdotal evidence. Main Entry: anecdotal evidence Part of Speech: noun Definition: non-scientific observations or studies, which do not provide proof but may assist research efforts Example: This chapter provides anecdotal evidence from personal interviews, public hearings, and surveys. Etymology: from the sense of anecdote `unpublished narratives or details of history'" Source: Webster's New Millennium™ Dictionary of English, Preview Edition (v 0.9.6) Copyright © 2003-2005 Lexico Publishing Group, LLC
"2 definitions found for anecdotal From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 : Anecdotal \An"ec*do`tal\, a. Pertaining to, or abounding with, anecdotes; as, anecdotal conversation. [1913 Webster]
From WordNet (r) 2.0 :
anecdotal
adj 1: having the character of an anecdote; "anecdotal evidence"
2: characterized by or given to telling anecdotes; "anecdotal
conversation"; "an anectodal history of jazz";『he was at
his anecdotic best』[syn: anecdotic, anecdotical]"
"One entry found for anecdotal.
Main Entry: an·ec·dot·al
Pronunciation: "a-nik-'dO-t&l
Function: adjective
1 a : of, relating to, or consisting of anecdotes <an anecdotal biography> b : ANECDOTIC 2 <my
anecdotal uncle>
2 : based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers <anecdotal
evidence>
3 : of, relating to, or being the depiction of a scene suggesting a story <anecdotal painting>
<anecdotal detail>
- an·ec·dot·al·ly /-t&l-E/ adverb"
[[23]]
an·ec·dot·al adj.
1. also an·ec·dot·ic [ -dtk ] or an·ec·dot·i·cal [ --kl ] Of, characterized by, or full of
anecdotes.
2. Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis:
『There are anecdotal reports of children poisoned by hot dogs roasted over a fire of the
[oleander] stems』(C. Claiborne Ray).
[[24]]
Definitions of Anecdotal Evidence on the Web:
* Information passed along by word-of-mouth but not documented scientifically. www.nechakowhitesturgeon.org/sturgeon/glossary/index.php * Anecdotal evidence is unreliable evidence based on personal experience that has not been empirically tested, and which is often used in an argument as if it had been scientifically or statistically proven. The person using anecdotal evidence may or may not be aware of the fact that, by doing so, they are generalizing. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence
Anecdotal Evidence: Anecdotal Evidence is information you obtain from a subjective report, an
observation, or some kind of example that may or may not be reliable. In addition, anecdotal
evidence is not scientifically valid or representative of a larger group or of conditions in
another location.
(alleydog link removed 10 December '06 because WP identified it as spam and wouldn't let me save edit otherwise - --Calair 12:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC))Reply
See this helpful webpage which exemplifies further contrasting approaches to "anecdotal evidence" [[25]] The Invisible Anon 23:18, 6 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
See also:-
Source [[26]]
Narratives are used to make points, and since we all retain an internal model of the world, and can model another person's mind as well, narrative has a subjective reality to us. Anecdotes represent a transfer of soem piece of narrative, which we can test for consistency against those models.
The statistical examples seem to hve ignored the Rev. Bayes' work, and also the n-of 1 trial which is a statistically sound evidence based medicine method. Since it relies on repeated trials the applicability to 666 m falls may be limited by volunteers.
Overall, this has the apeparance of a silly argument, given that we all know what anecdotes are even before we reach our anecdotage. The Invisible Anon 14:33, 27 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
There are a few points of cleanup that need to happen.
joshbuddytalk 15:09, 1 March 2006 (UTC)Reply
I count dialogue to the RfC between two versions as: 4 - older version 1 - uncertain 1 - newer version
If this were a poll that would constitute the 2/3 supermajority to return to the older version. Durova 04:17, 3 March 2006 (UTC)Reply
It appears that someone with a very specific POV has been involved in editing this previously. I have tried to write a general introduction that encompasses all possible meanings.
It seems that the massive list of definitions is unnecessary, and it seems this might be best organized by how the term is used in three contexts:
Anyway, This was just a start. Jokestress 20:13, 23 March 2006 (UTC)Reply
A definition to anecdotal evidence is absolutely crucial to wikipedia. A reference to this article is needed to dispute those who wish to quote that their hair dresser's uncle's cat's psychic told them the world is flat. Anecdotal evidence is a scientific concept, I believe we need some real scientists in on the debate.
Seriously, this is a term used every day in scientific and medical professions (not to mention the media) how on earth could this be considered to be disputed? There isn't a disputed tag sitting on the evolution article because it isn't disputed in reality. This article should be no different. Factoid Killer 23:13, 31 March 2006 (UTC)Reply
OK, I have just given this a pretty serious overhaul, keeping in mind comments on this talk page. I believe I have covered most of the major concerns. However, it is far from complete. At this point, I think a casual reader would get a general sense of the concept and its different uses. I have added citations wherever possible, and I'd like to see more published sources for quotations. Please feel free to make additions or suggestions, but let's try to keep this from becoming unreadable. Thanks to all whose suggestions on this page were incorporated into this iteration. Jokestress 04:08, 1 April 2006 (UTC)Reply
I like what you've done with the article. Well done! Factoid Killer 12:27, 1 April 2006 (UTC)Reply
I removed "oxymoronic" from this sentence: "Anecdotal evidence is an informal oxymoronic account of evidence in the form of an anecdote". It's an awkward edit, and moreover is a failure of NPOV 101: instead of defining "anecdotal evidence" as oxymoronic, we need to say who says it is and why. As the article notes, there are in fact some forms of anecdote that are accepted as evidence, e.g. case studies in medicine. The veracity of an observation and how one interprets it will vary with the situation. -Jim Butler 21:17, 31 May 2006 (UTC)Reply
The article needs a section on something like this, citing evidence. From the top of my head ... the study where people witnessed a car crash and were asked about it later. —porges(talk) 09:25, 3 August 2006 (UTC)Reply
It's often reported that "flying is safer than driving" but without qualification this isn't a meaningful claim. Road travel typically involves relatively short trips with the risk spread relatively evenly throughout the entire trip; air travel typically involves longer trips with much of the risk concentrated at takeoff and landing. The result of this is that comparative safety depends on whether you look at risk per mile travelled (appropriate to driving) or per trip (appropriate to flying). Therefore I've removed this from the article. --Calair 12:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
The definition has once again slipped off the deep end of "anecdotal evidence is bad evidence". Although the evidence quoted from personal anecdote, or even general anecdote, can be unscientific, incorrect, and invalid, it can just as easily be very correct and factual but still be used anecdotally and that use can be correct or incorrect. Thus, bad data has other names and the difference from anecdotal evidence must be pointed out. The complication of the definition is that most people use the term erroneously to mean "bad data". There should be some mention of why that is an erroneous use of the anecdotal logical.
It is not the evidence that is in dispute, it is the method, or conclusion. The main story is what is in dispute not the anecdote. The definition must entertain why the main story is erroneous not the anecdote. If the anecdote is in dispute there are other logical fallacies for bad evidence that are much more powerful to use. It would be inefficient to use the anecdotal evidence logical flaw.
Again, someone pointing out that many smokers die at age 95 from something other than lung cancer or smoking related disease, is valid scientific data. People that eat limes while on a long sea voyage don't get scurvy, is also equally valid scientific data. What is lacking from those anecdotes is the idea that there could be many other variables that contributes to the observed conditions of lung cancer and scurvy. Such factors are diet, and genetics. Concluding from the anecdote leaves the other factors to weaken the debate. It is simpler to say "anecdotal evidence" than what about died, genetics, location, type of water, etc...
Data given anecdotally ignores all those other possible variables. In a sense, it is incomplete evidence. In another sense, it is incomplete study to for the conclusion in the larger part of the paper.
The claim of "anecdotal evidence" should permeate that the conclusion is premature or even wrong, but the evidence doesn't support nor refute it.
If you use the personal anecdotal evidence that you grandmother lived to 95 and didn't die of lung cancer, you could correctly use it to prove that lung cancer doesn't kill all smokers. That conclusion should be a green light for science to study the area of 'why some people don't die young of lung cancer'. That type of conclusion from anecdotal evidence should suggest that the previous lung cancer studies, although possibly good, need more study.
Personal anecdote is often very very irrefutable, especially when both parties know the anecdote personally. In a sense, anecdotal evidence and personal anecdotal evidence are irrefutable correct and useful.
Also: There needs to be an explanation regarding the difference between "anecdotal evidence" and "personal anecdotal evidence". It should incorporate the idea that all science is supposed to be personal. "If you don't agree do the experiment yourself." The difference between scientific facts and anecdote should be given. Remember anecdote is a small story inside a bigger one, therefore it is likely that the anecdotal evidence just doesn't tell it all.
Please correct the definition in the main page to reflect the difference between "bad evidence" and "anecdotal evidence." They are not the same, although many think they are. There is a subtle but important difference. As the page reads now it promotes the idea that anecdotal evidence, is the poorest data type ever. Remember anecdote is a small story in the larger story. So the larger story is not proven by the anecdote, even if the larger story is correct and the anecdote correct. It is the larger stories fallacy that is in error by anecdotal evidence, not the evidence itself. If it is the evidence itself, there are other names given to the bad data.
Example: If you grandmother lived to 95 and smoked her whole life and died in a car-wreck, how do you know her lungs weren't riddled with cancer and would have killed her had she lived just a little longer? That is and example of incomplete study. If it is known that she did have lung cancer, it is incomplete or fraudulent evidence. All those are a much greater fallacy than the personal anecdote.
If the person comes back with, "We did a complete extensive autopsy by three independent labs and all concluded that here lungs, although black were in perfect health." Then the information is just anecdotal if used incorrectly, if used correctly it is scientific.
Eric Norby 16:23, 13 March 2007 (UTC)Reply
They are examples. Analogy is something else. The best I can give you for citations is to look up any definition of anecdote, data, evidence, and truth. Do not look at the definition for anecdote here at Wikipedia, it is somewhat erroneous and not reflective of most other standard definitions. I only post the comment here as help, should you want help it will require a tiny bit of background effort on your part. To blindly ask for proof of standard definitions seems rather dry towards me don't you think? Eric Norby 16:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)Reply
The table lists scientific evidence as "Irrefutable", which is a little misleading. Without getting into the specifics of the scientific method, one of the "general observations" for the reliability prong of the Daubert Standard is that the theory or technique must be falsifiable. Battles of the experts are a ludicrously expensive feature in trial law and are generally avoided (see Expert witness), but that does not mean that they do not take place. Is this table a direct quote from the source or can it be modified (or at least disclaimed)?Somedumbyankee (talk) 21:56, 2 May 2008 (UTC)Reply
I very strongly agree. I'll add a disclaimer. 75.7.1.89 (talk) 20:04, 7 February 2009 (UTC)Reply
The article as it stands today seems to be confusing 2 entirely different ideas:
1. A story about whose veracity there is doubt (specifically, but not only, hearsay).
2. An accurate and reliable report which has no statistical significance (my grandfather smoked 40 a day until he died at 90). (Of course the report may actually also be unreliable, but the point is that it's not statistically significant).
I think only (2) could be called anecdotal evidence; (1) is either unsupported hearsay or just unreliable testimonial evidence. But if it's felt that both these things should be grouped under "anecdotal evidence" a very sharp distinction should be made between them.
Pol098 (talk) 14:07, 2 June 2008 (UTC)Reply
I agree. The first definition seems to imply that other logical fallacies are equivalent to Anecdotal Evidence.
The term "hearsay" seems to imply the logical fallacy of "rumor". Nothing gets proven by rumor. Rumor can be used for further investigation, but it is often unreliable. Simply saying "I doubt that.", would be sufficient to eliminate any conclusion one would have from such data without the party providing more sound data.
It seems this article is getting bogged down on the "personal" side of anecdotes. There is no reason for anecdotal evidence to be from personal anecdotes. Anecdotal stories are small ones entered into the main text. Anecdotal evidence is short pieces of data entered to prove a sub-point, often they don't. They never are complete enough information to support a full conclusion. Only exhaustive/comprehensive data sets from meticulous scientific methods can be used for such a point/counterpoint.
Furthermore, if they are from personal anecdotes the conclusion being put forth from such data is even further in dispute, because it is being based on data not collected through the use of rigorous scientific methods. I think they call that unreliable or pseudoscientific data.
I would much rather use the term "unreliable data" against an argument than "anecdotal evidence" as the latter seems to give credence to the data, where the former seems to reduce it. It is possible for both to be correct, however, both are also subject to the fallacy of the data being inconclusive. I would much rather point out that the data is both unreliable and inconclusive.
However, anecdotal evidence is a special case where the conclusion is not warranted by the data given, mostly because it is insufficient in comprehensiveness.
Anecdotal data is data that is not comprehensive, for the conclusion being given. Any problems with the data/facts is covered sufficiently by other terms.
Anecdotal data is using single or small groups of data, like cherry picking, to prove a point that is too broad.
I move to strike the first definition, and include a point that many people use the term anecdotal to mean bad or unreliable data, but that is an erroneous use.
I suppose anecdotal data could be viewed as incomplete data collected by non-comprehensive study. Meaning that the study wasn't completed or wasn't completed because the person wasn't skilled in how to complete it.
The best defense for anecdotal evidence is to produce a more comprehensive data set.
The best defense for questionable data, is to show how the data, as given is subject, to the following scientific errors.
Perhaps someone should add a defense section to the article. Eric Norby (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:03, 5 September 2009 (UTC).Reply
An anecdote simply means one person's experiences. It has nothing to do with anyone drawing conclusions, true or false, at all. It has nothing to do with pseudoscience or fallacy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.232.63.192 (talk) 04:38, 21 April 2010 (UTC)Reply
Wow! This is the most botched up WP entry I've ever seen. Anecdotal evidence is an anecdote (short story of a single instance) offered as evidence. IT IS ABSOLUTELY PERFECT EVIDENCE IF ALL YOU ARE TRYING TO ARGUE IS FOR THE EXISTENCE (OR THE LIKE) OF THAT INSTANCE. Whoever has taken this article in the exclusive direction of an inductive argument is simply wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.99.66.65 (talk) 04:08, 12 August 2014 (UTC)Reply
I think a section should be made about misleading vividness in this article even if the two stay independent from each other.--Taeyebaar (talk) 05:07, 10 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
I cut this from the intro as incomprehensible:
Ben Finn (talk) 11:21, 29 October 2015 (UTC)Reply
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Is there a Wikipedia policy for anecdotal evidence? Benjamin (talk) 05:51, 15 November 2017 (UTC)Reply