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But seriously...
The work "Retractations" (not "ReTRACTions" as if it were a work about taking back everything he'd previously written, RATHER a going back over what he had written) is hard to find on the web, but can be ordered in print form (a bit less than 300 pages, in translation). Completed in 427 CE, towards the end of his life, he goes back over his 93 written works, and for the most part, simply states when and where he wrote it and why, plus the first line of the work to identify it. In a few cases he clarifies what he meant by it (for instance, in "On the Free Choice of the Will" he comments on how Pelagians were attempting to use this work to support their cause, but had done so selectively, so he quotes various sections from it that demonstrate their abuse of the text). Occasionally he makes corrections, noting changes in his understanding, but for the most part he stands by what he wrote, pointing to his other works where clarification is needed. He also apologizes for the roughness of incomplete works and explains why he was not able to finish them.
Still, this work continues to often by listed incorrectly as "The RETRACTIONS" in many online book lists or articles, and even as the cover title of some reprints.
I did the same again as someone seems to have reverted it without providing an explanation. My edits can certainly be improved. "primarily on the grounds that the Vandals adhered to the Arian branch of christianity" is not a perfect use of words, and I can understand the use of the word heresy in this case since Arianism didn't survive, unlike the Orthodox and Catholic branches.
Using the word heresy about a separate religion however is not acceptable for the Wikipedia, even if it is an extinct one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.122.26.70 (talk) 15:59, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I changed two instances where the article seems to have been written from a christian point of view into a more neutral one. There may be others.
"and was noted for combating the Manichaean heresy, to which he had formerly adhered." into "and was noted for combating the Manichaean religion, to which he had formerly adhered."
and
"primarily on the grounds that the Vandals adhered to the Arian heresy" into
"primarily on the grounds that the Vandals adhered to the Arian branch of christianity"
feel free to remove this text from the talk page when it is no longer relevant —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.122.129.60 (talk) 02:12, August 30, 2007 (UTC)
The writer asserts that the Church of England repudiated the doctrine of Original Sin in the 16th century. This assertion is confuted by the XXXIX Articles of Religion, that Church's official doctrinal statement dating from said century. --James Barlow
Well, I for one am a historian and am sorta finished. Theology and Philosophy are up to others! --MichaelTinkler
Is it really accurate to describe his youth as "hedonistic"? In the Confessions he describes himself as being quieter and meeker than the other boys. Even with his mistress he seemed to be faithful. -Mike Kunz
It is completely anachronistic and innacurate to say St. Augustine was born in "Souk-Ahras" in the side box. This should say "Tagaste" I would change it if I new how to edit the side boxes.
The use of "Catholic" in phrases like "raised as a Catholic" or "to become a Catholic" or "converted to Catholic Christianity" struck me as anachronistic. I'm not an expert on early Church history, but it seems inaccurate to refer to "Catholic Christianity" in the fourth and fifth centuries. How strong were the differences between the Christians in the east and those in the west? And are those differences meaningful or relevant in the context of a person who is a Manichean converting to Christianity? Could Michael, or some other expert on early Church history, weigh in on this?
GreenMountain1965 (talk) 21:37, 26 November 2007 (UTC)Karl
Is the picture a portrait of St Augustine? If not, is it Wikipedia-relevant? --Sebastjan
I noticed that this page uses a rather unclear portrait of Saint Augustine. I happen to have a pic of an old fresco of Saint Augustine which I think is more relevant as it portrays his personality as well as his ethnic characteristics, which I consider significant given his status in the early Church.
File uploaded here: http://i9.tinypic.com/40c33f8.jpg
Added a bit under "influence as a theologian" and retitled section to "theologian and thinker" to make a start re: Michael's point above. Thanks for a great start to the article!
Moss Hart 00:58 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I revised the section about original sin, removing the comment that Augustine was responsible for the survival of the doctrine in Western Christianity. Christians before Augustine understood original sin, and I do not think we can verify that if Augustine had not lived, the church would have forgotten this teaching. --LawrenceTrevallion 16:24, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
St. Augustine was african, was he not? The photo needs to be changed to something more moorish.
Regarding his canonization: In the early years of the Catholic Church, one could become a saint simply by popular recognition of one's sainthood; Augustine was canonized in this manner. --Mirv 18:51, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Regarding his elevation to Doctor of the Church, an Encyclical[2] from Pope Pius XI in 1930 suggests that Pope Adrian I was the first to declare him a Doctor, but doesn't come out and state it. Gentgeen 15:12, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Was saint Augustine a Berber ?
If St. Augustine was 'Berber', why was his language Punic, the language of the people of Carthage? Is not Carthage a Phoenician settlement in North Africa? Is not Punic a derivative of Phoenician? And, lastly, is not the name 'Berber' developed rather later, from 'Barbarian' and referring mainly to the descendants of the Vandals and other Germanic tribes that invaded and settled North Africa? 03:44, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
On June 21, User:210.5.104.222 deleted the Bibliography, External links, See also and Letters sections of this article with no explanation. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Contributions&target=210.5.104.222). If I don't hear otherwise, I'll go ahead and revert the changes in a few hours. mennonot 11:45, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Why isnt it mentioned that St. Augustine is the originator of the famous "Angels on a Pinhead" question?CheeseDreams 00:03, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Actually, neither. It is a complete urban myth - albeit one that is nearly 500 years old. No mediaeval author ever discussed the question, and it was used as a rhetorical attack on scholasticism by various humanist authors. Unless anyone can quote it to me from a mediaeval source, of course! Hackloon 23:46, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
In Martin Luther King Jr's Letter from Birmingham Jail, he quotes Saint Augustine as saying that an unjust law is no law at all. Exacly where did Augustine write this? A link to a site with the full quotation and context would be appreciated as well.
This quote DOES, in fact, exist but it's in one of his less known works, "On Free Choice and the Will" (see Book 1, section 5, n. 11). Someone should try to make this text available online because I could not find it except by going to Amazon and doing a "search inside".
It is rarely stated that Augstine's most famous work, namely the City of God, is utopian fiction. That posterity chooses to read his utopian fiction as 'proven' fact is a serious error. In particular, the unconscionable misinformation regarding Genesis 2 & 3, and which he ad-libs in Chapters 12,13 and 14 of the City of God, should make everyone think thrice before accepting Augustine as an authority. Nagig
Edit: Perhaps the above poster is confusing this with the much better known (and much later) work, St. Thomas More's "Utopia"? Despite the title, "City of God" is not a fictional tale of the history of some non-existent ideal society.
"Avance sur ta route car elle n'existe que par ta marche"
Found this quote in French by St Augustine but can't source it or find standard English translation. Can anyone help?
Thomas (tomekcollin@hotmail.com)
"Proceed on your route because it does not existe without your step."
Shouldn't The Literal Meaning of Genesis be discussed in the article?--Bcrowell 05:15, 5 November 2005 (UTC) Um no because that would be POV —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.187.45 (talk) 00:59, August 28, 2007 (UTC)
I have just added a new section to Judaism and Christianity on "love." It is just a stub of a section, hopefully others will add more about the Jewish notion. But I know that my characterization of the Christian notion is at best wildly incomplete. Perhaps among the contributors to this page there are some who could go over it and add whatever additional material, detail, nuance, explanation they think necessary. I am very concerned about not misrepresenting, or doing justice to, the Christian point of view. I also added a long quote from Maimonides to the section on Heaven and Hell; in fact, I did a rewrite a week or two ago. I know the Jewish position is well-represented but again I am concerned that in the process the Christian view may appear misrepresented or at least underrepresented. So, I'd be grateful if someone checked and made sure the Christian view(s) are accurately and sufficiently represented. Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 20:44, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I just have a comment on the the section dedicated to Augustine's passage on 'the Jews'. An anti-Semitic quote can be found for nearly every Ancient Christian Thinker; from the Apostles to Luther. It is certianly an unforunate legacy that we must deal with. My question is whether including this quote accurately represents Augustine, or if it merely discredits him. It is very unforunate that this was a part of his thinking, but I think including this with such promience distorts and ignores some of his more important contributions.
What do you all think? Andy 06:15, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
I certainly think that if there is a section on Augustine and Judaism, more mention needs to be made of Augustinian "witness doctrine," which has significant impact on the way that Jews are treated throughout Medieval Christendom. While Augustine takes a negative view of Judaism--as did all his Christian contemporaries--he constructs Jews and Judaism in such a manner that, in his mind, their survival is critical to Christianity. In Living Letters of the Law, Jeremy Cohen links Augustinian witness doctrine very closely to the fate of medieval Jews, arguing basically that thinkers who followed Augustine favored (relatively) acceptable conditions for Jews, and thinkers who moved further from his views favored worse conditions. While the negative aspects of Augustine's views of Judaism are (justly) noted here, the positive (relative to other classical / medieval thinkers) aspects are not. Makrina 06:20, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
I found this misleading also, as the common doctrine of the ancients was that the Jews would be converted before the Eschaton (according to Revelation), and so any comments on Judaism are aimed at conversion, not anti-Semitism. Someone who knows more of this that I can edit the article and discuss it (perhaps doing so with other ancient authorities as well).
I have not read every single one of Augustine's works in their entirety, but quite a few in complete form and several parts of other works, and have never ran across this quote in their pages. I've gone to ccel.org and run a search on all of Augustine's works that are online (which is all of them except Retractations, which I own a print copy of) and the quote never appears.
I suspect that this quote (if it's real at all) comes from the collection of 70+ sermons that were falsely attributed to Augustine in the middle ages. That's right, a series of sermons were FORGED in his name in the middle ages (and recognized as fakes within a generation, but still popularly quoted for awhile, mainly by the Augustinian order apparently, in an attempt to establish links between themselves and the church father). As anti-semitism amongst Christians was rather popular in the late middle ages, it's quite possible the quote comes from these false sermons.
Augustine's thoughts on the Jews are certainly supercessionist (that is, viewing Catholicism as superior), but the popular quote is completely out of character for his views on Israel, and so should not be included in the article, unless it's part of a stub debunking the "false sermons."
I recently came across an encyclical from Pope Leo XIII, PROVIDENTISSIMUS DEUS. In it Pope Leo XIII quotes St. Augustine several times regarding interpretation of scripture. One passage in particular I found interesting was this:
This quote may be useful in the 'Influence as a theologian and thinker' section, but I don't want to make any edits based on one quote and little understanding of Augustine's philosphies. Others more familar with the his philosophy may find the encyclical a useful source as to his influences. --Albert White 15:53, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
The section of the article dealing with the interpretation of Genesis is fine, but the second paragraph is a little odd. That Augustine was a creationist goes without saying, but the use of that particular quote is misleading. Augustine is specifically responding, as he does throughout City of God, to the views of pagan philosophers. Remember that the book is written to merge western and semitic traditions while disproving pagan ones, especially the Roman Civic Religion and Stoicism. So, this section is a means of disproving cyclical history theories. Follow the link to see just how all the contemporary context.
My problem with this section is that it is totally irrelevant and attaches associations to this Doctor that do not necessarily exist. Many young-earth creationists would even reject his allegorical interpretation. Augustine is exculsively speaking about the creation of Adam to AD419 - the Biblical history of humans. This is akin to the current doctrine of the RCC, while the idea of young-earth creationism as a distinct movement is the result of the Protestant Reformation and sola scriptura literalism. He was just saying that Hesiod, and his ilk were wrong in disputing the Bible by using invented texts. It is possible that if he were presented evidence, he would allow for many more years (But this kind of speculation is as bad as what I'm complaining about.
I'll come back in a week to clean this up. Any comments?
Donbas 10:49, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
The section on the little girl petitioning him to "take up and read" implies that she directly told Augustine to read the Bible. I always thought that he merely over heard a girl stating to nobody in particular to "take up and read," as in study. Am I wrong? And another thing, must every article on a church father have the obligatory section on their possible anti-Semitism? Is it not so small in comparison to many other things the article does not even touch upon? Srnec 04:37, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
The section called "In the arts," like all Wiki article sections that reference the popular culture of North America, has no value. Rock music "writers" have no knowledge of culture. Cinema script writers include names of intellectual writers in order to appear sophisticated. They merely use names for effect. They have never read or understood the named writers. I can't understand why Wikipedia lets such sections remain in the articles. Is it to pander to tenth-graders who buy the music and pay to see the movies?Lestrade 00:10, 23 June 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
Would St. Augustine's beleifs in predestination and free will be considered dualist?
Dear Friends: With some work on converting all the non-inline references to inline references, this article would meet or come close to the standards set for good article status. Please consider working on this and nominating it at: Wikipedia:Good article candidates. --CTSWyneken(talk) 13:44, 16 August 2006 (UTC) I fully agree, as well it is also by this statement, a philosophy, by the actual meaning of the words. So It therefore cannot be the words/thoughts of God.Again Simply The words of man again telling the thoughts of God, To which anyone may without fault, Tell what God Is now thinking, And with out fault One may dismiss all the previous thughts of said God, to be that of which they are,certain,the words of man.
I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arctofeatured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 17:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
The section Doctrine of Original Sin is misleading and erroneous. It is ascribing Calvinism to Augustine (namely, that God predestines the reprobate to Hell), which is incorrect. The source of the quote (a book by Bertrand Russell, an agnostic and strong critic of religion) is furthermore highly unreliable. I have thoroughly corrected the section now based on the 1914 Catholic Encyclopedia.
regards, lumendelumine ~Nov. 8 2006, 04:02 (UTC)~
Here is some of what the article currently says in the "doctrine of original sin" section:
"His idea of predestination rests on the assertion that God has foreseen, from time immemorial, all the choices every person who would ever live on Earth would make, and whether they would cooperate with Grace or not. The number of the people God knows would be saved are the elect, the number who God knows will not be saved are the reprobate. God has chosen the elect certainly and gratuitously, without any previous merit (ante merita) on their part. Yet Augustine also maintains firmly that it is God's will to save all men. God does not destroy human liberty and free choice, but preserves it, so that the elect would, potentially, have the full power to be damned and the non-elect full power to be saved. … Augustine's theory of predestination was misunderstood by both the Semipelagianists and John Calvin as teaching double predestination, ie. that God had already explicitly decided who would be saved and who would be damned and predestined them to this fate, in a way that does not leave room for free will, personal choice and cooperation with Grace."
The article seems to imply that Catholic Encyclopedia of 1914 (which has a paragraph-long block quote) interpretation is correct, and Calvin's interpretation is wrong. Did the Catholic Encyclopedians talk with Augustine's ghost and find out what he was really trying to say? Is there a reason that we can authoritatively say that "Augustine's theory of predestination was misunderstood by both the Semipelagianists and John Calvin as teaching double predestination"? Is there encyclopedically valid proof that that isn't what Augustine was really trying to say? Did Calvin read a bad translation?
I am not an expert on this subject, but the article basically calls Calvin's reading of the text a misinterpretation. Is there proof that this interpretation is incorrect? We can't get Augustine to give us a signed letter clarifying what he was trying to say. -Todemo
The Catholic Encyclopaedia quotation is accurate, but the content of the encyclopaedia itself seems questionable to me. I checked a couple the quotations (commentary on Psalms 73 and 102) against the Christian Classics Etheral Library, and could find neither. See, for example, this CCEL link: [3]. NigelCunningham 00:08, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Made an NPOV dispute for this section only. I would like to see us get a quotation from somewhere else other than the Catholic Encyclopaedia, since it appears (unless someone wants to correct me) to have fabricated the quotations (see previous comment). NigelCunningham 00:26, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Augustine of Hippo/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
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needs citations plange 02:58, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Augustine did NOT "believe in Papal supremacy", as claimed in the article and "supported" by reference #3. A carefull reading of this reference will demonstrate that he linked the "True" Church to being in COMMUNION WITH Rome, rather than SUBJECT TO Rome. Also, a reading of "Optaremus", the letter sent by the African bishops to Rome, explicitly tells Rome that the Pope's juristiction does not extend the African provincial matters; he should not try to reach that far, lest the pride of worldly power come to infect the Church. These and other references such as the Enchiridion, if read in their own context instead of through the glasses of later ages, clearly show that Augustine held the Unity of the Church to consist in being what St. Paul describes as "A Body that builds itself up in Love", and not in being an organisation based on power, juristiction, supremacy or subordination. Indeed, it might cheekily be said that Augustine would judge that present-day Rome (and all other denominations that refuse to be in communion with other churches) thereby declare ithemselves schismatic! The Augustinian "True" church is the church that is in the broadest possible communion, which is the original meaning of the word "Catholic" ("Kat' holos" = "According to the Whole"). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.42.142.2 (talk) 03:14, 18 July 2008 (UTC) |
Last edited at 03:15, 18 July 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 20:07, 2 May 2016 (UTC)