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Talk:BMW G 310 R





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Latest comment: 1 year ago by TransporterMan in topic Request for Comment regarding not a feature list
 


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Not Feature Lists containing original research

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@Trigenibinion

Hi there! I don't want to get into an edit war. I'd like you to indicate which of those sources contain the information "But it does not have Cornering ABS, Combined ABS, steering damper, active suspension, dynamic engine braking control, traction control system, wheelie control, voice control, cruise control, launch control, kick start, hill holder, dynamic rev limiter, all-wheel drive, quickshifter, dual clutch transmission, reverse gear, parking sensors, parking brake, automatic walking, heated seats, heated grips, adjustable handlebar, adjustable windshield, CAN bus, digital locker, loudspeakers, start-stop system, alarm, intelligent speed assistance, blind spot monitor, lane change assist, lane departure warning system, collision avoidance system, radar reflector, kickstand switch guard, airbag, eCall, hazard lights, dynamic brake light, or cornering lights" and "The instrument panel consist of a monochrome segment LCD display with engine temperature meter but without battery voltmeter, oil pressure meter, tire-pressure monitoring system, lap timer, riding modes, backup camera, navigation system, Bluetooth, Android Auto, CarPlay, weather, messaging, handsfree calling, intercom, TV tuner, radio, CD player, DVD player, Blu-ray player, media connectivity, or audio processor." I can tell from the sources that it does have a monochrome LCD, but they don't list any of the other lack of features. If the source does not explicitly say these features are not there, it is original research and is in violation of one of Wikipedia's core content policies, "no original research". See here: Wikipedia:Core content policies . It looks like I and another editor have tried telling you that this is original research and you can't have that here. Maybe you can clear it up and tell me where in the sources those lack of feature lists are. Thanks! 100.6.47.220 (talk) 17:03, 25 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Trigenibinion
Hi There! I saw your edit saying that the Indian video shows all of the features of the LCD, but it does NOT list all the features it does not have as you have listed above. That means what you are conducting is your own research based on the video, which is original research and is a violation of one of Wikipedia's core content policies. Can you clear up for me which of those sources has this list of all the features the bike does NOT have? If not, I'll change it one final time. Also for clarification, I made a mistake on a portion of summary above regarding a separate editor and I'd like to disclose that the above user and I are one and the same. I'd like to make a good faith attempt with you to come to an agreeable consensus. 50.200.68.54 (talk) 16:05, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
Thank you for that clarification IP. I was unaware of that since both of the IPs you used were different. ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 16:09, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
The uninterrupted Brazilian video shows that there are no other pages on the black & white SEGMENT display.Trigenibinion (talk) 16:11, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
The manual has been linked. If something does not appear on the manual, it is not there. Trigenibinion (talk) 16:13, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
Hi! If it is not specifically stated in the manual, then it is considered original research according to Wikipedia's policies and can't be used. Saying it is not in the manual would not be valid. The manual doesn't say a missing feature of the bike is a built in wine cooler, but that doesn't make it notable enough to include in the article as an example. 50.200.68.54 (talk) 16:20, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
Please show the policy where it states that if a feature is missing in the manual it cannot be listed as missing. All these are normal features in vehicles so they are notable. A wine cooler is not. You can get a cigar holder Harley Davidson grip but I have not listed it. Trigenibinion (talk) 16:27, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
Hello! I stated it above. It is one of the core content policies. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research . Also wine cooler can be had in a vehicle as a factory option (See Mercedes S-Class). In order for it to not be original research AND not in a source, it must be easily verifiable by a non expert (IE The sky is blue). A non expert on motorcycles would likely not watch that video and easily deduce that the bike does not have a CAN Bus. Most people who own a vehicle probably have a CAN bus and don't even know it, but that's because they are not experts. As such, that information you have provided is not easily verifiable by a non expert and falls under original research. It seems like you are an expert on motorbikes, remember that the rest of the world isn't and wouldn't be able to easily verify that, so it's considered original research. In order to keep that that information, you must cite a source that it is attributable to. It specifically states in the No Original Research policy that "Information in an article must be verifiable in the references cited." To a non expert, that information is not verifiable in the sources you cited. To summarize, if the lack of features is not verifiable in a source, it is not considered a reliable source for said information according to the No Original Research policy. Another example to refute your point that if two sources both have features; article A lists feature A, article B lists feature B. You can cite both sources and say Feature A and B exist, but what if you didn't know about Article B? Just because you only have Article A and can prove feature A exists, you are not allowed to say feature B does not exist unless article A specifically states feature B does not exist. Another issue with the manual argument is how many manuals are, they aren't always technical. A Real life example is my vehicle does not say it has a dry sump oil system, but it does. Just because it does not indicate that it does, does not make it true. The fact that my vehicle has a dry sump oil system is not provable or disprovable by the manual, another source would have to be cited. 50.200.68.54 (talk) 16:51, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
You can have a CD changer or a DVD player on a motorcycle, so Blu-Ray would be possible. Is there any motorcycle with a wine cooler? How would not watching the video make you deduce the bike does not have a CAN bus (which it doesn't)? Trigenibinion (talk) 16:58, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
Hello, I think you're making the mistake that an average person would deduce that. A person of average intelligence would likely not conclude that. Like I said, it sounds like you're an expert on bikes, but the average person is not and would not conclude that. Therefore, even if it could be deduced, it is not cited in the article or video and is therefore original research and not allowed under Wikipedia policy. 50.200.68.54 (talk) 17:10, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
Nothing can be deduced regarding CAN bus. I learned it from thee G 310 forum. A fool can deduce anything from anything. Trigenibinion (talk) 17:17, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
Hello! In that case you are proving that this is original research and is not allowed. 50.200.68.54 (talk) 17:21, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
I did not really look for an acceptable reference for that specific piece of information. Trigenibinion (talk) 17:27, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
Then all information that is not attributable to a specific reference must be removed, such as the long list of missing features, however anything that is directly citable (such as the basic monochrome LCD with engine temperature meter) can be kept. 50.200.68.54 (talk) 17:34, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
I found a reference for the CAN bus. Every visible feature or BMW technology not mentioned in the manual can be regarded as not present. Trigenibinion (talk) 17:37, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
I don't think you're understanding the original research policy about data that is not verifiable in a source. I'll request a third opinion. It is possible I am misunderstanding it 50.200.68.54 (talk) 18:17, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
If the rider could use a certain feature it would be in the manual. Trigenibinion (talk) 18:23, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
Hello! That's not necessarily true. My older vehicle has a way to program the vehicles transponder key, but that isn't listed in the manual. Therefore, your statement is not true. Not only that, but just because it isn't listed in the manual as not a feature, does not mean it does not exist. Even if it was true, that would be original research and against one of Wikipedia's core content policies. 100.6.47.220 (talk) 23:18, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
Reprogramming a transponder key is something done by the dealer. It does not need to appear in the manual, the manual need only say that if you lose a key you should ask a dealer for a new one and tell you not to lose a code if that is required. This is a good indicator that the vehicle has an immobilizer (but you should confirm with the manufacturer). No such mention does not guarantee that the vehicle lacks one, as it is not an immediately visible feature. Trigenibinion (talk) 23:29, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
Hello, in my car, the transponder can be programmed by the user, I've done it myself, twice. So no, you are incorrect about that; regardless, my statement disproves your statement "Every visible feature or BMW technology not mentioned in the manual can be regarded as not present." This is all the more incorrect considering my vehicle is a BMW. TransporterMan has also proven that to be an inaccurate statement. Your statements are contributing to original research which is not allowed under Wikipedia policy. 100.6.47.220 (talk) 23:42, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
I doubt it can be officially programmed by the user. That seems like a security flaw. Trigenibinion (talk) 23:56, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
Hello, it is not a flaw, I was given papers on how to do it by the dealer. It is only for the lock transponder, not the immobilizer transponder, two different antennas, but that is not on topic for this. I am refuting your central point regarding original research and would like to come to a consensus regarding the sources and the statements. Can you please provide a source that lists all those as not features? In order to not be original research, it must be stated by the source such that a non expert could verify it. 100.6.47.220 (talk) 00:00, 27 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
Even if the dealer gave you those papers, that is not an immediately visible feature. The user does not need that information to turn the key. Any normal feature that needs some instruction to be used would be in the manual if it existed. Trigenibinion (talk) 00:09, 27 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Trigenibinion: My third opinion: no, it is not OK to list a bunch of this as missing just because your sources don't say they are included. This is indeed WP:OR, and not even very good research. It hard to prove a negative, and even if you could, it would not be admissible without a source. If you find sources saying certain features are lacking, you could include that and cite the source. Get your observations published in a WP:RS, and then you can put them here and cite that. Dicklyon (talk) 18:23, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

See right above. It is not a random source not listing a feature, but the user's manual. Trigenibinion (talk) 18:25, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
Here's a fourth opinion: Dicklyon is correct. The fact that a feature isn't mentioned in the user's manual cannot be cited, due to the original research policy, as a reliable source for the assertion that the vehicle does not have that feature. That's just how it works here at Wikipedia, so real-world evidence is irrelevant, but I would nonetheless also note that I've had or known a number of vehicles - I'm 70+ years old - that have had features that aren't mentioned in the user's manual or where features were mentioned in the manual which weren't actually present on the vehicle. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 20:11, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
If a feature exists that does not appear on the manual then it should be proven, not the other way around. Trigenibinion (talk) 20:52, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
Both ways around, actually. If we want to claim a feature exists, and it's not in the manual, then we'd need some other reliable source to say it exists. Best not mention the existence or non-existence of things when we don't have support for such statements in a reliable source. Frankly, I'm surprised you're having trouble understanding or accepting this. Please see Law of holes. Dicklyon (talk) 22:22, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
The manual is the authoritative source for this information, if it's not there it does not exist until the contrary is proven. Trigenibinion (talk) 22:44, 26 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
That's a plausible conclusion of your research. But it's not suitable for stating in Wikipedia without an actual source. Lots of things can be deduced to not exist, but we don't have any reason to add such extrapolations of sources to Wikipedia. Dicklyon (talk) 03:40, 27 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
Refs 32 and 33 mention some things it does not have. Those can be mentioned, citing those sources. The rest is just a long list of OR that contributes nothing useful. Do like the manual, and write about what it has. Dicklyon (talk) 03:48, 27 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Request for Comment regarding not a feature list

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Should the lines mentioned in Talk:BMW G 310 R#Not Feature Lists containing original research be part of the article based on the listed sources? 01:44, 27 August 2022 (UTC) 100.6.47.220 (talk) 01:44, 27 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Note: – SNOW closed by nom as "No OR" in this edit. Dicklyon (talk) 18:03, 29 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

It depends, but in most cases, no. Let's say the assertion is "The Speedmobile 2000 motorcycle has white leather seats as standard equipment." A picture of the bike with white seats, even one from an official source, does not prove that the bike in the picture only has standard equipment. Nor does it prove that they're leather and not artificial leather. Let's say the assertion is that "The Speedmobile 2000 motorcycle can be obtained with white leather seats." Even that does not prove that the bike in the picture isn't a custom or special copy of the bike. A picture of the bike from an official source with white leather seats with the *caption* "Speedmobile 2000 with standard equipment" might be used, but then it's the caption in combination with the picture that's the source. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 20:33, 1 September 2022 (UTC)Reply

The simple rule I go by is: something can be mentioned in a Wikipedia article if there is a reliable source indicating that thing (whether it be a positive or a negative).
If a source (e.g. relevant magazine article or blog) can be cited stating these items are not present, then include the statement and cite that.
[DoI: I know very little about motorbikes and have no idea what a 'CAN bus' is, never mind whether a motorbike should normally have one; having looked it up, and without having read this Talk page, I (wrongly) would have expected a m/cycle not to have one!] Kitb (talk) 14:51, 30 August 2022 (UTC)Reply
I didn't know motorbikes might use a CAN bus either, but the cited source explained why that matters in the choice of certain accessories that do or don't use the bus. Dicklyon (talk) 04:46, 31 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

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Last edited on 11 February 2024, at 22:32  


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