This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
This page contains a translationofBarroco from pt.wikipedia. |
This page contains a translationofBarroco from es.wikipedia. |
Well, I am confused. According to the log:
(diff) Baroque 12:54 pm (2 changes) [*removed "characterized by intricate detail", added some architects] . . . . . MichaelTinkler
This removal is confusing. As far as I know (in literature, music, and architecture) Baroque style is always characterised by intricate detail.
so why did Michael remove this?
well, because "intricate detail" in the field of art and architecture is far too unsubtle to be of any use. I doubt it's useful in music, either. Renaissance and Neoclassical art and architecture are subject to as much detail as Baroque. What do you mean by 'detail' that is useful? --MichaelTinkler
I don't know the protocol for handling /Talk pages, but I'm surprised that you think its okay to remove a link to the talk page when you answer a question and then ask me a question... The point of a /Talk link is to show that there is some discussion that may not be appropriate on the main page. by removing the link, you have basically said my question or opinion has no value.
It isn't the issue of detail that makes the Baroque style important. it's the intricate nature of the detail that makes it important. If fractals had existed in the Baroque times, they would have been called Baroque as well.
Intricacy as opposed to simplicity is an easily recognized characteristic, and may be applied to many endeavors of life. And it is characterstic of the baroque style.
whoops - I didn't mean to delete the Talk link! I apologize very much for that.
Well, 'intricacy' (though I believe he uses the word 'complexity') vs. 'simplicity' is one of the 5 (I think it's 5) difference Wolfflin identifies for the differences between Classic (his word for High Renaissance) and Baroque. That, of course, elides Mannerism. Lots and lots of baroque architecture (the area I know best) is literally quite simple in terms of surface detail - I'm thinking of Bernini's Piazza San Pietro and the surfaces of Borromini's San'Ivo. One can, of course, oppose Guarino Guarini's Chapel of the Holy Shroud in Turin, but he's a lot less characteristic than either of those two Roman examples, or Wren's St. Paul in London.
I would read 'intricate detail' to mean 'fussy'. That is much more a characteristic of Rococo.
Also, the word 'detail' has a variety of meanings in different art forms and media. I sincerely don't think it's a particularly useful introductory sentence to what will eventually be a fairly long article! --MichaelTinkler
I agree that Rococo is intricate as well. When I checked out my definitions at www.dictionary.com, I found that some authors (obviously some of those I have read) equate the two styles. Baroque is known for intricate ornamentation and I'm not sure what that difference (in a general sense of the word) between ornamentation and details might suggest.
Sources I've just read say that late Baroque merge into early Roccoco. And that in some countries, particularly Protestant ones, Baroque did not become as "wild". However I will protest any description of Baroque as simple. -rmhermen
Renaissance art in many media is as 'ornamented' or 'intricate' as the Baroque. I'm thinking (just off hand) of Cellini's metalwork and in fact any finished bronze or gold work of the High or Late Renaissance. They're as covered with 'linear detail' as anything in the Baroque. There is also little difference in the level of *surface detail* in the ornamental nature of, say, renaissance and baroque column capitals.
Please note, I'm not denying there's a difference. There is a stunning difference between a dry, rather dull capital in 1450 or 1500 and something created by Guarino Guarini or Borromini in the 17th century. One is 'renaissance' and the other is 'baroque'. However, it is not a matter of the number of lines cut in the leaves. It is a matter of a sense of animation, a flowing line, a liveliness.
Similarly, there is no less dependence on geometry in the baroque than in the renaissance. The difference is that the preferred geometric figures are no longer Regular figures (circle, square), but instead tend toward the oval, the ellipse (Piazza San Pietro), the 6-pointed star (St. Ivo della Sapienza, Rome). That is a *characteristic* difference, but it has nothing to with surfaces. Borromini's masonry is quite conservative -- it's his geometry that's over the top.
I guess my basic problem may go back to the idea that "Wikipedia is not a dictionary" (see FAQ) - we don't even need to start an entry with a simplification. Of course, I'm sure you meant it only as a beginning, and you and I have spent all this time going back and forth when we could have been adding Baroque entries to be elaborated by others, too. Oh, well - an afternoon (I'm GMT minus 4) not badly spent. --MichaelTinkler
not to worry, rmhermen - I'll protest any description of Modernist Architecture as 'simple', too. A Miesian glass box may look simple from 1000 feet in a photograph.... ---MichaelTinkler.
Is there a reason that baroque art starts in the early 1600's but baroque music in the late 1600's? What about architecture? ---rmhermen
yes. See Periodization. These stylistic terms are very very very messy. The Renaissance starts at different dates for different media, and at different dates in different countries for the same medium. I have real trouble with the Cultural movement entry because of this.
Style itself is very very very messy: not everyone in 1967 was a hippie. Baroque doesn't begin on April 7, 1609. Styles are rarely completely in control of works of art and literature any any time. The recent inclusion of metaphysical poets as 'Baroque' shows that "Mannerist' is not an easy concept to grasp either... Wetman 22:35, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)
These paragraphs seem inconsistent:
'Baroque'...is a French translation of the Italian word "Barocco"; some authors believe it comes from the Portuguese "Barroco" (irregular pearl, or false jewel - notably, an ancient similar word, "Barlocco" or "Brillocco", is used in Roman dialect for the same meaning), or from a now obsolete Italian "Baroco" (that in logical Scholastica was used to indicate a syllogism with weak content).
and at the end:
Baroque pearls are natural pearls that deviate from the usual, regular forms. In particular, they are pearls that do not have an axis of rotation. It was this use of the term for irregular pearls that eventually lent its name to the baroque movement.
So is this fact or theory? Somebody please clarify. Palefire
I don't like the position of the picture, to the left of the TOC like that...I tried to fix it, but the caption wouldnt display. the caption, by the way, doesn't make much sense --Tothebarricades.tk 02:21, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
his first name should be written either in German; Friedrich, or English Frederic, but not Frideric, as you have it. He was born in Germany was court musician to King Georg and had a fall-out with him. Went to England, but, as fate will have it, Georg became king of England as George I (the first) he made up with him with the watermusic.
It is also importnant to write his actual name:『Händel』or "Haendel" not just Handel. Handel is simply a different name.
—
For some reason, Handel's middle name is generally anglicized as 'Frideric', rather than the more usual 'Frederick'. I guess that was how he himself chose to anglicize it.
Originated "somewhere between 1550 and 1600"A mention of a "proto-Baroque" has been made. No Baroque in 1550. That's Mannerism we're looking at. El Greco is not Baroque. Baroque is not a movement in art history it's a movement in art itself.
I have edited "hidden" links to make them explicit. A link like 17th Century Philosophy linked in the text as "The Age of Reason" just compounds the editor's own confusion. Will Durant entitled that volume The Age of Reason Begins.
I didn't take out this: "The Baroque was defined by Woelffrin as the age where the oval replaced the circle as the center of composition, that centralization replaced balance, and that coloristic and "painterly" effects began to become more prominent." The critic Heinrich Wolfflin was a long time ago. And this misremembers a second-hand retelling of something Wolfflin might have said in some particular context.
We need more images to make points come alive. I found the Rubens among UnusedImages here. Wetman 01:13, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Hi, this article no longer meets a number of the criteria for a featured article. 1.) It does not cite its sources. Best would be to add the most trusted resources in the field, some print resources especially, but also online references are better than none. Those sources would likely help with good material to further improve the article anyway. 2.) It does not have a lead section 3.) The images, while great, may not all be freely licensed properly for Wikipedia. The Web gallery of art states: "The Web Gallery of Art is copyrighted as a database. Images and documents downloaded from this database can only be used for educational and personal purposes. Distribution of the images in any form is prohibited without the authorization of their legal owner." That may be an incorrect claim, but that needs to be dealt with carefully.
I really hate to [[Wikipedia:Featured_article_removal_candidates|nominate an article for removal as a featured article, so I thought I would ask for help here first. Hopefully someone here can handle this. But because I believe all featured articles need to meet the same standards, I will nominate it if no one is able to fix these issues. Thanks - Taxman 23:27, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC)
Someone has put all the caredully-balanced illustrations in a strip down the right-hand side. Is this progress? --Wetman 14:26, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
... around 1600 in Rome, Italy So that's not Rome, New York, after all, eh. My goodness, this certainly leaves no room for doubt in our minds! In later centuries --that would be during the 18th century and the 19th century: which manifestation of Baroque is intended here? ... a sense of blurring different art movements I'm certainly getting the blurring part, but is "art movements" really what's meant? --Wetman 01:31, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Is the inconsistent capitalization of Baroque/baroque intentional - or does it need to be made consistent? Kdammers 09:15, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
Done. The capital is not required for the period, but widely used and i think always accepted. IMO it is also desirable for clarity, and i'm adding a sentence about "barrocco" that will use "baroque". --Jerzy·t 16:04, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"If Mannerism was a first breach with Renaissance, Baroque was an opposed language. It represented the evidence of the crisis of Renaissance neoclassical schemes— the psychological pain of Man, disbanded after the Copernican and the Lutheran revolutions, in search of solid anchors, in search of a proof of an ultimate human power, was to be found in both the art and architecture of the Baroque period. "
I hope I am not the only one who thinks of this part as shit in a chocolate wrapper.
I have sat down with a peice of paper to try and piece together what it means. There still remain several things which are ambiguous;
This is my amendment:
If Mannerism was a first breach with Renaissance, Baroque was an opposed language. The psychological pain of Man -- a theme disbanded after the Copernican and the Lutheran revolutions in search of solid anchors, a proof of an "ultimate human power" -- was to be found in both the art and architecture of the Baroque period.
I'm not an expert in this subject, there may be something I don't know. But I've made a start at least, I hope :)
There are also several other parts of the article which are excessively pompously worded, particularly in the descriptions of the artworks; I'm hesitant about changing it all but - someone who knows this stuff, how about making it a little more accessible?
Gubby 16:28, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
In fact--there is a great deal that says very little, very badly. The first two paragraphs of the "literature and philosophy section are terrible. For one thing, they've obviously been translated, badly, from another language--see the double use of "research" when "search" is obviously intended, and various inappropriate definite articles. These things in themselves could be fixed pretty easily. But not much seems to be being said here, and that little is not terribly informative. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.6.206.46 (talk) 17:51, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
I don't know how to remove it from the end of the article. It looks nice indeed, but I quess it's not an organic part of the article.--Mathae 21:38, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Dear all, I've just noticed that there is not a mention in the whole Baroque Architecture section about Santini whose churches and monasteries are currently a source of wonder as well as detailed studies. Come to the Czech Republic and see his (Krtiny close to Brno or Church at Zdar nad Sazavou monastery). Ondrejs 10:05, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
Could it be argued that Leonardo da Vinchi was a founder of this artistic tradition? Looking at quite a few of his works lately such as The Virgin of the Rocks and the equestrian project for Francesco Sforza(incomplete) it seems to me that the gesticular style of baroque could be represented in his works. Though I am not thoroughly familiar with this style it is a thought I had upon reading this article.
Hey, does anyone think that could help me answer some questions. I'm having a bit of trouble finding the answers alone. # BROWNSAY SOMETHING!!! | 00:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
The Baroque went from 1600 until?, the causes were? (socioeconomic, historical and the perspective from modern historians). There is some information in the article, but its so scattered in unnecesary sections that it makes a hard reading for the casual visitor. (Anonymous)
"In recent history, western European civilizations have faced three critical questions (in chronological order): Which religion to follow; which government to uphold; and how to bring equality to everyone. The matter of religion was resolved after Martin Luther, John Calvin, and others initiated a Protestant Reformation that gave many European monarchs an excuse to become more independent from The Holy Roman Empire. This led to a Counter Reformation by the Roman Catholic Church which included a push for new forms of art that exalted the Church's holy position."
I have removed this paragraph because it seems, in my mind, to violate NPOV when it decided what the three "critical questions" in history were. Also, the statement that "the matter of religion was resolved" is factually incorrect. Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation led to more disagreement about which religion to follow, not less. The rest of the information in this paragraph is repeated in the next paragraph. Wood Thrush 23:33, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Are there any types of fashion (clothes) that were worn during the Baroque period? Angie Y. 19:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
The word 'ancient' here jars with me: I don't think a linguistic specialist would use it. Apart from anything else, 'ancient Portuguese' would actually be Latin! Maybe the sentence was written by a non-English speaker in whose language the equivalent of 'ancient' is used of languages that in English are normally designated 'Old' (e.g. 'Old French' = 'ancien français' in French). Sdoerr 14:24, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I was just wondering why in the section about the Cornaro Chapel there is a picture of the Menshivok Tower? It is Baroque architecture, but has absolutely nothing to do with the Cornaro Chapel, the Santa Maria della Vittoria, or the Ecstasy of St. Theresa as far as I can tell. Is it relating to the section below on Architecture, or is there some other reason? I would just change it, but given the amount of work having gone into this article, and it's previous featured status, I wanted to double check that there wasn't some good reason for the picture being there. ColinWhelan 17:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
It seems odd to identify the metaphysical poets with Baroque art when an article elsewhere in Wikipedia associates them with mannerist painters (mannerism preceded the Baroque). The link between the metaphysicals and the Baroque painters may make sense in terms of chronology, but in terms of style, the link to mannerism seems more compelling. This query isn't really limited to the reference to metaphysical poetry, though; it suggests that much of the literature referenced here--notably Marinismo, but also conceptismo and culterano (elsewhere culteranismo) should not be thought of as Baroque. Why in God's name should Cervantes be thought of as a "Baroque" author? The sense here seems to be simply because he was writing in the seventeenth century, but if we call Cervantes "Baroque," it ought to be on the basis of style. atom33 4 July 2007
Don't know who wrote most of it; but despite the criticisms above, most of which reflect the imprecision of terms such as Baroque, Mannerism etc., and which the article merely reflects itself, just thought I should say that whoever wrote seems to have an enviable understanding of what they're talking about, and a real gift for exposition.
The top paragraph as shown here:
Evolution of the Baroque
Beginning around the year 1600, the demands for new art resulted in what is now known as the Baroque. The canon promulgated at the Council of Trent (1545–63) by which the Roman Catholic Church addressed the representational arts by demanding that paintings and sculptures in church contexts should speak to the illiterate rather than to the well-informed, is customarily offered as an inspiration of the Baroque, which appeared, however, a generation later. This turn toward a populist conception of the function of ecclesiastical art is seen by many art historians as driving the innovations of Caravaggio and the Carracci brothers, all of whom were working in Rome at that time.
is practically word for word from this website:
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Baroque_-_Evolution_of_the_Baroque/id/614654
Not sure who is not citing who here but at least the wiki article should have some citation to where the paragraph came from. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.69.130 (talk) 22:26, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
generally known facts do not need citations. Where are you going to cite from anyway -- the All Mighty? You guys all need to get laid. --149.152.34.237 (talk) 20:35, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
No definition, no unifying artistic characteristics, nothing. You can read the whole article and not know what baroque is normally considered to be characterized by. The French article says clearly『Il touche tous les domaines artistiques, sculpture, peinture, littérature, architecture et musique et se caractérise par l’exagération du mouvement, la surcharge décorative, les effets dramatiques, la tension, l’exubérance et la grandeur parfois pompeuse. Il poursuit le mouvement artistique de la Renaissance artistique, le néoclassicisme lui succède à partir de la seconde moitié du XVIIIe siècle.』The Russian article says the same, and that's what I've learned at the university, too. But I guess this "conventional" description has since been rejected by academics who need to prove that they discover something completely new each year to keep their salaries. That was also necessary as a way to get rid of all kinds of old stereotypes, inaccurate prejudices and especially of the foolish idea that it is possible to generalize and understand anything at all; another great advantage is that students and the laity are guaranteed to forget this kind of formless disorganized information immediately. Back to the Baroque and even further back we shall go! --91.148.159.4 (talk) 21:22, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Precisely, I suspected that the conventional description must have been present in some form or another; that someone has deleted it; and that the exchange in the previous section on this talk page was precisely about its deletion. The IP pointed out that the description was generally accepted and shouldn't be tagged - in response, a Wikipedian with a PhD and peer-reviewed publications in art just deleted the description [1], because apparently he didn't like it, presumably because the fashion in his circles has changed. You see, they have discovered the supreme truth recently, namely that nothing in this world can be defined, especially not in a rational way that the great unwashed without PhDs can understand. More importantly, even the previous existence of a definition/description must be obliterated - instead of, say, people mentioning the previous definition/description and then providing and attributing the recent objections against it and, hopefully, the new accepted definition/description - if there luckily exists one. --91.148.159.4 (talk) 21:39, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
No one, after reading the "lede," let alone the article, would be able to answer the question, "What, exactly, is Baroque?" I am assuming that answering the question involves the use of non-academic, common language that is devoid of intentional obfuscation.Lestrade (talk) 19:53, 10 May 2012 (UTC)Lestrade
Isn't that the fundamental question? With regard to verifying sources, what if there are several verifying sources, each one different from the other? Does a Wikipedia article list all of the various sources? Each source would be the product of a unique, individual perspective. There might be as many perspectives as there are people on the planet, each with their own viewpoint or "frame of reference."Lestrade (talk) 22:09, 10 May 2012 (UTC)Lestrade
Names such as “Baroque,” “Romanticism,” “Neoclassicism,” “Mannerism,” and “Rococo,” are signs in our language that were conventionally chosen to designate certain concepts. [citation needed] The concepts were abstractions that were made by collecting perceptions and subtracting all of the accidental qualities and retaining the essential qualities. [citation needed] In order to understand the meaning of the word “Baroque,” some source has to tell us what is the essential characteristic of all things that are Baroque. This essential characteristic cannot be shared with other concepts. [citation needed] If it were shared, then it would not be definitional. [citation needed] What is the essential characteristic of things that are called Baroque? There may be more than one characteristic whose combination uniquely characterizes the Baroque. For example, the Baroque may be a special combination of artistic products that are both “irregular” and “ornamental.” In any case, the essence of the Baroque must be communicated by the article. I know that such a demand for clarity is contrary to academic tradition. [citation needed] It is in the interest of certain groups to maintain a kind of hieratic, priestly language that is incomprehensible to those who are outside of the guild and who use demotic, lay language. [citation needed] But Wikipedia has no interest in maintaining job security for professors. [citation needed] Therefore, the article should give interested readers a way to know what is Baroque as opposed to other art classifications. Also, it may be true that the differences between art periods are not strictly demarcated. Does Baroque become Rococo when one more shell is added to a decoration? A convenient way of separating art periods is by using dates. We can say that as of midnight, January 1, 1600, all artworks were no longer Manneristic but were considered to be Baroque. If we do not want to rely on such a way of distinguishing art periods, then the article must tell us another way that Baroque can be known. [citation needed]Lestrade (talk) 13:27, 11 May 2012 (UTC)Lestrade
Jerome stated that “The tricky bit is in making a distinction between highly reliable and not-so-reliable sources.” Wouldn’t such a distinction be an expression of a viewpoint? As such, it would be a mere personal opinion or subjective claim. How would anyone know that I am wrong if I were to state that Arthur de GobineauorWilhelm Reich are highly reliable sources? What is the criterion?Lestrade (talk) 20:25, 11 May 2012 (UTC)Lestrade
Consensus means that quantity trumps quality. However, for example, Thomas Jefferson alone would have been more intellectually reliable than any roomful of people (See J. F. Kennedy’s remark of 29 April 1962). In that case, quality trumps quantity. Making a distinction between highly reliable and not-so-reliable sources is similar to making a distinction between essential and non-essential properties of the Baroque. Both involve an individual judgment that is made by a person of authority. Thus, it comes down to a subjective opinion that, by convention, is taken by other people to be an objective truth. A Wikipedia article about the Baroque must be able to clearly and definitively state the meaning of the word “Baroque” as it is applied to the artistic productions in Europe 400 years ago. A ninth grader should be able to read the article and then identify a Baroque painting from a half dozen paintings from various art periods. Lestrade (talk) 23:18, 11 May 2012 (UTC)Lestrade
"The rest is silence." (Hamlet, V, ii, 372) I can’t alter the article and then watch someone simply undo my alteration. I'm surprised that I was so windy above. Omertà.Lestrade (talk) 14:13, 12 May 2012 (UTC)Lestrade
The Baroque style is noted as first being developed by Seljuk Turks, according to a number of academics like John Hoag.[6]
This statement is quite odd! I cannot help but think that whoever wrote it here has misquoted or misunderstood something, because it is hardly correct.
It says that The Baroque style (an essentially European style using European architectural forms) was developed by Seljuk Turks (who used the forms and decorations common to Islamic architecture). This statement ignores the Late Roman architecture, ignores the Renaissance, ignores Alberti, ignores Michelangelo, ignores Giulio Romano..... and gives the creation of Baroque to the Turks.
I don't have Hoag's book, so I don't know how it was actually worded. I do know that the inaccurate statement has spread itself across the internet.
OK, what is the real story? In the 16th century Seljuk architects, who normally used typically Islamic forms and motifs, started adopting Renaissance features such as classical columns, projecting stones around windows, and other features which were combined with traditional forms and elements, the conglomerate sometimes giving an appearance that has a "Baroque" quality to it. The difference between the Seljuk "Baroque" and true Baroque architecture is that the European architects were deliberately developing a style of both structure and ornament that challenged the rules of Classically-based Renaissance architecture, while the Seljuk architects continued to construct buildings along the usual lines, but applied the Classicising details, borrowed, without regard for the "rules" that usually governed their use. A similarly "Baroque" character can be seen in some Spanish architecture that combines Islamic and Gothic forms. Amandajm (talk) 07:20, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
I noticed this horrid line in the Modern Usage section:
"Expressionism throws some terrific 'fuck you's, baroque doesn't. Baroque is well-mannered."
Is this the kind of writing we want in an encyclopedia? Foul language can be useful, even in written works, but it must be appropriate to the circumstances. It would be difficult to convince me that this quote is anything but an unintelligent attempt to make a bold statement. (How ironic that this is in an article about baroque!)206.248.175.229 (talk) 13:23, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or|ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Hello,
I noticed in the source code there seems to be a stray div tag. Right after the heading Modern usage, the tag '
Done Thanks, Celestra (talk) 15:22, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
I find this article the easiest to understand and the easiest to use and learn about art. I'm posting this to say that a lot of the articles about Renaissance art, music, sculpture, etc. are very technical and difficult for a layman like me to understand and use. After all, the whole point of Wikipedia is access to quick, useful and easy-to-use information. 68.195.169.180 (talk) 22:56, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
I just finished reverting an edit changing the spelling of "theater" to "theatre", having hastily checked only a few lingusitic markers ("colour" vs "color", "characterize" ves "characterise"). Now, on closer inspection, I notice that "theatre" is in fact the norm throughout this article, while other elements are a mish-mash of US and UK English. It seems to me a discussion is necessary before proceeding further. "Theatre" is of course an accepted variant in American English, though "theater" is the predominant spelling. On the other hand, all occurrences of the word "color" are spelled the Amrican way. As for -ise and -ize endings, they are about half-and-half, though of course Oxford English favours this ending, except for a very few words. So, the division actually splits three ways: US English, UK English, or UK Oxford English. Wading through the edit history may take some while. I am hoping someone has got a simpler solution.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 01:23, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
I see that you have deleted all the galleries of images from the article on the Baroque. This article requires multiple images, since it covers a wide variety of places, buildings, and time periods; without images to compare and contrast the different buildings and styles and see the evolution, the article makes very little sense. It's almost impossible to write about baroque (or any other subject on art history) without galleries They look fine on my screen. What if I reduce the size of the images in the galleries? Would that work?
I appreciate your advice. Cordially, SiefkinDR (talk) 16:48, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
Rantemario: It is not at all apparent that these images relate to the sections they were placed in, for there is no accompanying discussion. Also, the images overwhelm these small sections. The article needs more text to support so many images within the body. With that placement, on small screens a reader would have to scroll through several screens of images and captions before reaching the pertinent text. Please see the MOS policies on image galleries, layout, and location. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 18:05, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
In the photo montage on the side at the top of the article, the top picture was a gorgeous, perfect shot of the grey-and-gold Baroque apse (I think) of St. Ignatius church. It captured the whole thing, from top to bottom, in good resolution. I've never seen a photo that good of that church before, and I can't find anything close anywhere on the internet. Then, after I clicked on another photo and then went back, the photo had changed to the current one! The other 3 photos in the montage were unchanged. The page history SHOWED NO CHANGES! The history on the image itself also showed no changes. It's as though the history of the universe had been altered to pretend that wonderful picture never existed in the first place. Can anyone help me figure out how this is possible and how to find that amazing photo that disappeared without a trace right before my eyes?! Thanks. 2605:6000:FFC0:7D:1C94:9033:58B1:79D1 (talk) 20:21, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
As requested by a fellow editor, I have removed the citations from the lead; they're found in the text below. I have also removed the statement that the movement originated in Rome, though I believe that is also well-supported in the text. Cordially, SiefkinDR (talk) 14:07, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
This section has sentences about Boucher. At least 4 books on painting "Masterpieces of Western Art", "Baroque" edited by Rolf Toman, Art History by Marilyn Stokstad, and History of Art by Janson, clearly state that Boucher is a major rococo painter, plus that Rococo painting started just after 1700 with Watteau. For painting, there is a now-agreed upon line between Baroque and Rococo; "late Baroque" is no longer used. The sentences on Boucher need to be deleted.
For architecture, baroque and rococo are linked more but virtually every book says baroque, even if you consider baroque and rococo the same, was totally replaced by Neoclassical by 1770. Saying the overall Baroque period goes to the late 18th century is inaccurate. (Unsigned)
I agree with Johnbod that Rococo is considered by several standard sources as the final phase of baroque. Some Rococo architecture was still being built in the 1770s. We could compromise, however, and say "mid- 18th century" rather than "late 18th century.". What do you think? SiefkinDR (talk) 09:42, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
Hello everyone. I am new to the editing process, and I want to touch base about content changes to this Wikipedia entry. Specifically, I have noticed that the section on the origins of the term "baroque" needs some serious reorganization. I am happy to do this and could also add some more substantial references. As of now, I will make some general changes and see what others think. Thank you! CuriosumScriptor (talk) 17:12, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
Thank you! I am happy to hear that what I have done seems to fall in line with at least one contributor. Much appreciated! CuriosumScriptor (talk) 20:35, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
Also, I think the text below needs to be moved to a different section.
"In his dismissal, Burkhardt was continuing a debate as old as the Baroque itself. The prominent Renaissance architect Andrea Palladio, for example, had earlier denounced the period's expressive, unnatural ornamentation, saying that it strayed too far from classical Greek models. The Roman critic Gianpietro Bellori went a step further, writing that he saw little merit in such a “nonsense of angles, broken elements, and distortions of lines, . . . they break up bases, capitals, and columns with fakery stuccoes, fragments, and disproportions.”[12]"
The problem here is that this is written in the style of an academic article, rather than Wikipedia style, and it doesn't add any information on the topic of section, which is the origin of the term. Look at the style of the other sections. Keep going, you're on the right path. Cordially, SiefkinDR (talk) 12:24, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
I have removed that paragraph for now, but have saved the text and reference for editing. Once I review the content, I will post a revision. CuriosumScriptor (talk) 22:44, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
The new montage unfortunately doesn't work. It ignores Italy, France and Spain, as well as sculpture, Three images are not enough. It's not a problem if an image is repeated in the article; the lead montage is like the cover of a book; it's a visual summary of the main topics of the article. Cordially, SiefkinDR (talk) 13:32, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
The following ref is missing:[1] (<ref name="Larousse2" />) Will somebody with more knowledge about article please fix. I do not know who or when it was added.
-- User-duck (talk) 00:04, 16 November 2019 (UTC)This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 25 January 2021 and 5 May 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mrosenberg93.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignmentbyPrimeBOT (talk) 17:51, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Perkklau. Peer reviewers: Perkklau.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignmentbyPrimeBOT (talk) 15:20, 16 January 2022 (UTC)