Talk:Chữ Hán

Synthesis

The recent expansion of this article, attempting to mirror the Kanji article, is synthesis and a gross distortion of the way the Chữ Nôm writing system is typically presented in the literature. The terms "Non-Sino-Vietnamese reading" and "Nôm reading" appear to be inventions not found in the literature.

Indeed the "Non-Sino-Vietnamese readings" are not readings at all, but loans into Vietnamese from southern Chinese in the last few centuries. Of course the Chinese write them with characters, but there is no evidence than anyone ever read those characters as Vietnamese. It is like claiming that "tea" is an English reading of 茶, but no-one would ever say that. Kanguole 18:15, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Kanguole "but there is no evidence than anyone ever read those characters as Vietnamese.", the Vietnamese epic poem, Truyện Kiều, line 251, uses the Non-Sino-Vietnamese reading of 油. 油 is pronounced as "dầu" (which is a loanword from Cantonese) instead of the Sino-Vietnamese reading "dù". Line 78 of the poem, 默油 is pronounced as mặc dầu instead of mặc dù (a synonym of mặc dầu).

"Indeed the "Non-Sino-Vietnamese readings" are not readings at all, but loans into Vietnamese from southern Chinese in the last few centuries."

In Graphemic borrowings and transformations from Sinitic: The case of Quốc Âm Thi Tập, Trọng Dương describes "NSV (Non-Sino-Vietnamese) pronunciations are pronunciations only used to read Sinitic loanwords in the Vietnamese language that have been adopted from before or after the Tang period, with two groups that are Pre-SV and Post-SV pronunciations (Trần, 2016: 150). " Lachy70 (talk) 23:27, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

We should not engage in analysing texts ourselves – that is original research.

The problem with your presentation is that it gets the way the Nôm writing system works backwards. The creators of Nôm set out to record words or morphemes of Vietnamese, and selected or created characters with which to write them. And that is how Nôm is usually described in the literature.

Take for example the article by Trần that you cited above, which is not about Chữ Hán, but rather a study of how Chinese loanwords in Vietnamese were written in Nôm. In this context, he divides those loanwords into SV and non-SV. But note that even with this restricted focus he calls all the characters discussed "Nôm characters", even those borrowed unchanged to write the corresponding SV words in Nôm texts. Kanguole 13:52, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

@Kanguole

"We should not engage in analysing texts ourselves – that is original research."

I wasn't, I was citing what the text says in the Nôm Foundation website (which was a legitimate organisation for preserving Hán Nôm texts), the lines I mention shows the pronunciation dầu being used for 油 instead of dù.

"The problem with your presentation is that it gets the way the Nôm writing system works backwards. The creators of Nôm set out to record words or morphemes of Vietnamese, and selected or created characters with which to write them. And that is how Nôm is usually described in the literature."

Yes, I agree with that definition. But if you have read multiple texts in Nôm. You can see that multiple characters can be used for the same word (because chữ Nôm was not standardised). It could be a self-coined character or chữ Hán character. For example, the word "ta" could be written as 些 (chữ Hán) or 𢧲 (self-coined phono-semantic character; ⿰我些). It is also common for a character to have multiple readings. Since they could be used for many different words. We can see this with chữ Hán and chữ Nôm characters. 碎 with its Hán reading toái, but it is also used for multiple Nôm readings (thỏi, toả, toái, tôi, tui). Readings in this context just means the pronunciations used to read the character. We can see multiple readings with self-coined characters, the common character for moon (trăng) 𦝄 (⿰月夌), which used to read the words, cữ, giăng, lưng, răng, and trăng. Source for the readings is from Tự Điển Chữ Nôm Dẫn Giải.

"But note that even with this restricted focus he calls all the characters discussed "Nôm characters", even those borrowed unchanged to write the corresponding SV words in Nôm texts."

According the Wikipedia article on chữ Nôm, "Chữ Nôm is a logographic writing system formerly used to write the Vietnamese language. It uses Chinese characters (Chữ Hán) to represent Sino-Vietnamese vocabulary and some native Vietnamese words, with other words represented by new characters created using a variety of methods, including phono-semantic compounds.".

The whole writing script covers chữ Hán and self-coined characters under the name chữ Nôm. I think you are just arguing between the minute nuances of the definitions of the script. It is true that the characters that were borrowed for Vietnamese phonemes are chữ Hán (they originate from the Chinese writing system, thus they are called chữ Hán). They are just not used the same way as they are in the Chinese writing system. So we can call them chữ Hán or chữ Nôm too. So what Trọng Dương means by Nôm characters is chữ Hán characters and self-coined characters.

But my point still stands with "Indeed the "Non-Sino-Vietnamese readings" are not readings at all, but loans into Vietnamese from southern Chinese in the last few centuries." As Trọng Dương describes "NSV (Non-Sino-Vietnamese) pronunciations are pronunciations only used to read Sinitic loanwords in the Vietnamese language"

Lachy70 (talk) 02:50, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

You keep arguing that what you have done is logical, but that is not the issue. The issue is that the presentation given here is not found in the literature, so you had to synthesize it by taking the literature on a different topic, the Nôm script, and inverting it. Kanguole 17:41, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

The current literature for this would be "Literary Chinese in Vietnam", which is what Chữ Hán is. Chữ Nôm is Vietnamese-invented Chinese characters. I see no problem with this article. 123.243.111.143 (talk) 05:56, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

The literature referred to are the reliable academic sources, and they discuss how the Nôm script was devised to record the Vietnamese language. This article inverts them to synthesize a new topic. Kanguole 17:20, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Because relatively speaking, what is written here, none of it is wrong. It might need some sources but those could theoretically be found. Chữ Nho does indeed mean "Confucian" characters for example. This article could be combined with the article that was already written, which is the "Literary Chinese in Vietnam" wiki article. What had happened was ancient Vietnam had learnt the Chinese script when it was part of the Chinese empire, and sort of used it against the ancient China empires to create a separate Viet nation. I think it's very necessary to have an article that explains what Chữ Nôm is versus what Chữ Hán is. 123.243.111.143 (talk) 05:49, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Reliable sources are a necessity for Wikipedia articles.

These is already an article explaining the relationship between Chữ Nôm and Chinese characters. It is called Chữ Nôm. Kanguole 10:46, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

And the sources are reliable. 202.125.28.211 (talk) 15:10, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Which sources are those, the ones in the article, which are about a different topic (the Chữ Nôm script), or the ones that could theoretically be found? Kanguole 22:34, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

@Kanguole In the book, Tự học chữ Nôm by Lê Văn Quán, a professor in the Faculty of Literature in Vietnam National University, Hanoi. He has published books on chữ Hán and chữ Nôm.

He refers Sino-Vietnamese readings as "âm Hán Việt", Nôm readings as "âm đọc của chữ Nôm", and Non-Sino-Vietnamese readings as "chữ Nôm đọc chệch âm" ("literally Nôm characters read as deviating sound") or as "âm Hán Việt Việt hóa" . This is on page 64.

"Ở phần chữ Hán có trường hợp là từ nhưng cũng có trường hợp là chữ được rút ra từ trong kết cấu của chữ Nôm. Yêu cầu của mục này là trên cơ sở chữ Hán, người học suy đoán ra âm đọc của chữ Nôm. Ở phần phân tích chữ Nôm, còn có trường hợp âm đọc bắt nguồn từ âm Hán Việt cổ hoặc âm Hán Việt Việt hóa, nhưng hiện nay chưa có đẩy đủ cứ liệu, cho nên, chúng tôi tạm xếp các trường hợp đó vào kiểu chữ Nôm đọc chệch âm. Có trường hợp ghi thêm dấu, theo truyền thống những chữ đó đọc theo nghĩa." Lachy70 (talk) 05:09, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Vietnamese names of Chinese characters and Classical Chines

Vietnamese people have a long tradition of confusing the writing system of a language with the language itself. They often do not distinguish Classical Chines from Chinese characters; they call Classical Chinese by the same name as Chinese characters.﹃Hán tự﹄and﹃Hán văn﹄have never been common names in Vietnamese for Chinese characters or Classical Chinese. They are often used in written language, rarely in spoken language. Because today Chinese characters are often called﹃chữ Hán﹄in Vietnamese, Classical Chinese is also often called "chữ Hán". If you read popular Vietnamese books and newspapers, you will see people calling the language used in Nam quốc sơn hà and Bình Ngô đại cáo as "chữ Hán". Knowing that confusion will help you understand why during the colonial period people called the written French﹃chữ Pháp﹄(French script) and why people called Vietnamese written in chữ nôm "chữ nôm". Judspug (talk) 04:01, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

There is generally a conflation in terminology between individual characters, a greater "writing system", and a prestige form of the written language. Are you suggesting this information be included within the article somehow? Remsense留 04:10, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I am sorry, what do you mean by "Vietnamese people often do not distinguish between Classical Chinese and Chinese characters"? In the articles you have mentioned, Vietnamese Wikipedia clearly states that both of the articles used văn ngôn (classical Chinese) to write Nam quốc sơn hà and Bình Ngô đại cáo rather than chữ Hán as you say.
●Nam quốc sơn hà (chữ Hán: 南國山河) là một bài thơ thất ngôn tứ tuyệt viết bằng văn ngôn không rõ tác giả (mặc dù 1 số nguồn cho rằng Lý Thường Kiệt là người viết ra).

●Bình Ngô đại cáo (平吳大誥) là bài cáo viết bằng văn ngôn do Nguyễn Trãi soạn thảo vào mùa xuân năm 1428, thay lời Bình Định Vương Lê Lợi để tuyên cáo về việc giành chiến thắng trong cuộc kháng chiến với nhà Minh, khẳng định sự độc lập của nước Đại Việt.

Hán văn has been commonly used to refer to Classical Chinese, the official Classical Chinese textbook that was used in South Vietnam uses Hán văn in its title.

 

The cover page of Hán-văn Giáo-khoa thư, the textbook used in South Vietnam to teach Literary Chinese and chữ Hán.

Several books used to teach Classical Chinese use the term Hán văn such as,
●Hán văn Tự học (Nguyễn Văn Ba; 1958)

●Tự học Hán văn (Nguyễn Khuê; 2020)

●Ngữ pháp Hán văn (Tuệ Dũng; 2016)

●Hán văn quy tắc (Nguyễn Di Luân; 1941)

●Hán văn (Trần Trọng San; 1963)

●Hán văn độc bản (Ngô Văn Triện; 1942)

●Hán văn học thuyết (Nguyễn Trần Mô; 1941)

●Hán Văn sơ học tiệp giải (Đặng Xuân Viện; 1941)

Lachy70 (talk) 05:19, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
The word that an average Vietnamese person would use to refer to both Chinese characters and Classical Chinese would usually be﹃chữ Hán﹄(Chinese characters). Most of the book titles above are in Classical Chinese using Sino-Vietnamese reading. Even in books that call Classical Chinese﹃Hán văn﹄in their titles, you will also see people calling Classical Chinese "chữ Hán". The term﹃văn ngôn﹄until now is often only found in academic texts.﹃Hán văn﹄is not commonly used in spoken Vietnamese.﹃Hán tự﹄(漢字) is also used in book titles to refer to Classical Chinese. Since the names of Chinese characters are often also the names of Classical Chinese, you need to rely on the context to know when Chinese characters actually mean Chinese characters.﹃Ấu học Hán tự tân thư﹄is a book that teaches Classical Chinese to children, not a book that teaches how to write and memorize Chinese characters. Judspug (talk) 07:06, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
During the French colonial period in the 20th century, Vietnamese people often referred to both Chinese characters and Classical Chinese in Classical Chinese as﹃漢字﹄or "漢文". Judspug (talk) 07:27, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Those that refer to both Chinese characters and Classical Chinese as just﹃chữ Hán﹄are ignorant of the difference. I use văn ngôn and Hán văn interchangeably. The usage you are referring to is not due to a fact that Chinese characters and Classical Chinese are not distinguished but due to people not aware of the historical context behind these terms and using them interchangeably.

The fact that academic papers written in Vietnamese differentiates between Chinese characters and Classical Chinese proves my point.

But I agree with you that Hán tự is not commonly used in spoken Vietnamese. I do not use Hán tự at all.

Ấu học Hán tự tân thư teaches Chinese characters though, it teaches simple single characters, delves into topics such as nature.
●As an example, the first two sentences of the book, 天地日月。天上地下。(Although it is written in Classical Chinese, it does not focus on the grammar and more difficult sentence structures in Classical Chinese)

●All of the sentences used to teach Chinese characters in Ấu học Hán tự tân thư are four character sentences, with further explanations about the sentences.

Thus was perfect for teaching students Chinese characters since the sentence structures were simple, but allowed for easy memorization of the characters.

There were also more books that taught Chinese characters on different subjects, such as,
●Ấu học tu thân giáo khoa thư (幼學修身教科書) which taught characters regarding morality and filial piety.

●Ấu học địa dư giáo khoa thư (幼學地輿教科書) which taught characters regarding geography.

●Ấu học lịch sử giáo khoa thư (幼學歷史教科書) which taught characters regarding history of important figures.

A book that was used specifically to teach Classical Chinese would be Ấu học ngũ ngôn thi (幼學五言詩) as it used poems as examples, it had glosses written in chữ Nôm,

The first sentence reads: 天子童贒豪 (Thiên tử trọng hiền hào), Nôm: 德𤤰重几贒豪 (Đức vua trọng kẻ hiền hào). The text shows lines from poems and provides a Vietnamese translation on the side. Lachy70 (talk) 03:17, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Some concepts and terms familiar to modern Vietnamese were not understood or widely used by Vietnamese people in the past. The linguistic knowledge of Vietnamese people in the past was much lower than that of modern Vietnamese people. When they write something in Chinese characters or in other words, written Chinese, having to write in Classical Chinese is taken for granted by them. They think that Chinese characters (the writing system of Classical Chinese) and Classical Chinese (the written language uses Chinese characters) are the same concept. What is today called﹃chữ Hán﹄in the past was often called﹃chữ﹄and chữ nôm is simply called﹃nôm﹄by them. The terms they use when writing in Classical Chinese are no more precise than Vietnamese terms. Chinese characters and Classical Chinese are often referred to by the term﹃字﹄or "文字". During the French colonial period, 字/文字 was replaced by 漢字/漢文. The identification of the concepts of Chinese characters and Classical Chinese is a tradition inherited from the past. Calling Classical Chinese as Chinese characters not only appears in Vietnamese people who lack linguistic knowledge, it also appears in people who do jobs related to Classical Chinese. The fact that Vietnamese people in the past lacked a clear term to refer to Classical Chinese is not so unusual when compared to the way Chinese people referred to Classical Chinese. Even in China, the widespread use of clearer terms to distinguish different varieties of written Chinese only occurred in the 20th century. Vietnamese people who use Chinese characters not only confuse a writing system with a language, they also confuse characters with words and morphemes. A﹃chữ﹄(character) can be a word or a morpheme. It is not strange if people consider learning Chinese vocabulary as learning Chinese characters. Judspug (talk) 08:27, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

"Some concepts and terms familiar to modern Vietnamese were not understood or widely used by Vietnamese people in the past."

So why are you trying to insinuate now that modern Vietnamese did not differentiate between these concepts? This differentiation was clear in the past, scholars who had spent their lives studying the classics would know better than us.

In the preface of Chư Kinh diễn âm 諸經演音, they talked about how the language from nhà Hán 茹漢 was different from what we Vietnamese speak, thus it needed to be translated into Vietnamese. But they did not refer to Classical Chinese as 字or文字. Only as chữ Nho opposed to chữ Nôm. But in this context, chữ means writing rather than characters. So the writing of the Confucians 儒 (which originated from China). In the preface of Chỉ nam ngọc âm giải nghĩa 指南玉音解義, they did indeed differentiated between languages between Chinese and Vietnamese writing this,﹃Khác nước khác tiếng chữ in một lề.﹄(恪渃恪㗂𡨸印𠬠例)

"Even in China, the widespread use of clearer terms to distinguish different varieties of written Chinese only occurred in the 20th century."

In the Analects, Confucius talked about a formal language that was used during the Zhou dynasty, he said, "子所雅言，詩、書、執禮，皆雅言也。". Referring to a formal language called 雅言.

But it does not matter as we are talking about the modern day, where in Vietnamese, it is differentiated and supported by multiple sources. I have not read any sources that have supported your opinion.

 

"bởi thế mới phải dịch ra tiếng nước ta" 𪽝世買沛譯𫥨㗂渃些。

 

chữ Nho

Lachy70 (talk) 02:07, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
"Chư kinh diễn âm" was written in the end of the 19th century. The name﹃chữ nhu/nho﹄first began to be used in Cochinchina in the second half of the 19th century. There are Vietnamese dictionaries written in or before the first half of the 19th century. Finding﹃chữ nho﹄and﹃Hán văn﹄in there can also give us some useful information.

Vietnamese people call Chinese characters﹃Hán tự﹄but it is not too common. The same goes for "Hán văn". Although Vietnamese people call Classical Chinese "Hán văn", it is not the most common name for Classical Chinese. You shouldn't just look at book titles with "Hán văn", you also need to read them with an open mind. Look at what the authors called Chinese characters and Classical Chinese in those books. Don't impose on yourself that﹃chữ Hán﹄must mean Chinese characters, Classical Chinese must be called﹃Hán văn﹄and not pay attention to names and meanings that are different from your initial assumption. You also need to find and read books that have﹃chữ Hán﹄and﹃Hán tự﹄in their titles. Don't make the same mistake when you look at the﹃Ấu học Hán tự tân thư﹄with the assumption that it must teach Chinese characters. You can read it again.

"Chữ Hán" have different meanings depending on the context. I won't list them here but I will suggest that its meaning includes more than just Chinese characters and Classical Chinese as I mentioned. Sometimes, in some Vietnamese newspapers, there are articles supporting or opposing teaching﹃chữ Hán﹄to children. Articles discussing teaching﹃chữ Hán﹄to Vietnamese children published over the past decade are a good starting point for considering the meanings of the name "chữ Hán". We still have to read them with an open mind, understanding the word﹃chữ Hán﹄based on the context in which it appears. A native Vietnamese speaker may use the word﹃chữ Hán﹄in different meanings without realizing this and not even know that﹃chữ Hán﹄has many different meanings.

Not all Vietnamese people today are confused about Chinese characters and Classical Chinese, but many are. You can see the confusion right in the articles about teaching "chữ Hán".

Before the 20th century, there was no widely used words in China to distinguish between wenyan and baihua. People write wenyan and baihua but do not often use specific terms to distinguish different forms of written language. The lack of common words to express linguistic concepts also occurs in written Chinese used in Vietnam. In situations where it is necessary to separate Chinese characters and Classical Chinese from other writing systems and languages, one can call Chinese characters and Classical Chinese﹃北字﹄but it is not always used and not as widely used as﹃字﹄and "文字".﹃北字﹄does not have exactly the same meaning as﹃字/文字﹄(You can compare calling Chinese characters﹃chữ Hán﹄and "chữ Trung Quốc"). Judspug (talk) 10:56, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Although proponents of teaching﹃chữ Hán﹄to children may have different ideas about "chữ Hán", there are already some things related to﹃chữ Hán﹄that are taught in schools. When learning about Vietnamese history and literature, children are taught about the languages and writing systems used in history and works written in Classical Chinese. If﹃Hán văn﹄were a common name, one would find it in many places in children's textbooks, a Classical Chinese poem written more than a millennium ago and a poem written nearly a century ago will both be introduced as written in "Hán văn". The word most used in Vietnamese children's textbooks to refer to Chinese characters and Classical Chinese is actually "chữ Hán". Children see that word in their textbooks and their teachers use it too. Judspug (talk) 08:04, 23 December 2023 (UTC)