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On 7 June 2021, it was proposed that this article be movedtoDecimation (military punishment). The result of the discussion was moved to Decimation (punishment). |
The source for the claim that Trotsky used the Decimation is quite controversial. This should be reflected in the Text. (Source that the Book is controversial can be found on the Page about Robert Service-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Service_(historian) )
"In addition, troop morale often increased dramatically after a decimation"
Where is the citation for this claim?
This seems to be a counterintuitive statement, it would be hard to imagine one's morale improving after having executed one's own comrade.
The last bit about Finnish decimation is having broken reference (nr 21). Also link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lottery_of_Huruslahti is heavily requesting citations. Maybe original research? 64.210.21.210 (talk) 10:45, 8 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
What the heck does "decimation" have to do with "noise shaping" (under "See also")?? I've been to the Noise Shaping page and there's absolutely nothing to do with decimation on it. I recommend removal of that link unless there's some extenuating circumstance that I'm not seeing here. The Chief 03:34, 8 December 2005 (UTC)Reply
It might be worth adding that when a legion was decimated, the leadership of the legion was usually executed, independen of the 1 in 10 deatsh of the rank and file. I am new and still learning the system, and so am not yet comfortable adding the edit myself...
I've heard, that decimation was used by the French forces in 1917 as a reaction to mutiny. Can anyone confirm? /da:Bruger:Poul G
I heard the same thing, cited by Wesley Clark in an interview. Some googling gives this. This is highly relevant for the article. Haakon 14:48, 4 March 2007 (UTC)Reply
I remember reading somewhere that as late as 1914 or 1915, some senegalese soldiers refused to advance, so the French army ordered that the unit be decimated. Djandersonza 14:07, 19 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
Hey guys, I just updated the page and put this back in with a citation from a book I'm reading on the subject of the usage of Colonial Soldiers by the French Army. The incident I found related to a Company of Tunisian Soldiers in November of 1914. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.168.176.63 (talk) 03:41, 1 April 2015 (UTC)Reply
When this is included- the article name should be change from roman army also because there is a "current usage" sectionVeggieburgerfish 12:07, 14 August 2007 (UTC)Reply
I agree, should be something like Decimation_(Punishment) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.83.72.208 (talk) 15:31, 28 May 2015 (UTC)Reply
I honestly do believe this does not fit in here. Wikipedia is a place for much, but not for everything in my opinion. Am I the only one thinking this or shouldn't this be removed? /204.162.xx.xx 00:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)Reply
Unless someone has survey data, I think "some" is a better descriptor than "few" for the number of people who use the historical meaning. Erall 20:00, 11 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
The word no longer has any value, as it is only ever misused; correct useage is just confusing.
I’ve seen the word used recently :-
.a) as a malapropism for ‘devastate’: The German U-boat force in WWII was described as being decimated; the loss was actually 60-70%.
.b) correctly, but implying a worse situation: Staff numbers were described as having been decimated; actually the reduction in numbers was about 10% over the past so many years.
.c) as above, in a Roman context: After the fall of Carthage in the 3rd Punic War the city was said to be decimated; actually it was far worse than that.
On the other hand, in two instances where it did apply, the word wasn’t used at all.
.d) A headline about a murderer, sentenced to life (ie 20years) being released after 2 years.
.e) An item about a woman given 22 days in prison being let out after 2 or 3 days.
I've given up saying it; I just get funny looks. Xyl 54 07:42, 26 September 2007 (UTC)Reply
We have seriously missed the point on this, and no mistake.
The punishment for mutiny, or cowardice in the face of the enemy, is usually death:
If the punishment for a whole unit doing this is to kill one man and let another nine off with a warning,
Then that isn’t extreme, that’s an exercise in leniency, borne no doubt of practicality.
For example:-
When the crew of the Bounty mutinied, all of the mutineers were under sentence of death; there was no suggestion of a 10% punishment.The Admiralty mounted a huge effort to re-capture them; though only 6 of the mutineers were returned for trial, 3 of those were hanged (50%)
In the Hermione mutiny, of the 33 mutineers re-captured, 24 were hanged (60-70%)
Before the battle of Bunker Hill, 5 men broke from the British lines and ran towards the Americans. All of them were caught; General Howe (who had a reputation as a humanitarian) ordered 2 to be taken at random and hanged, while /and the other 3 returned to their unit. (40%)
The contrary view is from the mutinies at Spithead and the Nore (which was more of a strike, really); the Admiralty (recognizing its own faults in the matter), ‘only’ hanged the ringleaders.
Thats where our view that decimation is severe probably stems from. Xyl 54 07:36, 26 September 2007 (UTC)Reply
And this bit:-
"However, because a decimation significantly reduced the troop strength of an army, and because it damaged unit cohesion by requiring soldiers to kill their comrades in a close-up and personal way, it is believed that the punishment was rarely used."
Is pure speculation: It either needs a citation to back it up, preferably from a Roman source, or it should be deleted.Xyl 54 07:47, 26 September 2007 (UTC)Reply
"As a result, the threat of decimation inspired fear and resolve in the Roman Legions."
I’ve asked for a citation for this. The threat of a death sentence might inspire fear and resolve; a 90% chance of getting away with it probably less so.Xyl 54 11:58, 16 October 2007 (UTC)Reply
"In his book Stalingrad, Antony Beevor recounts how the corps commander of a division that had retreated practiced decimation on them by walking down the line of soldiers at attention, and shooting every tenth soldier in the face until his pistol ran out of ammunition."
A reference would be good; book details, page number, Xyl 54 12:01, 16 October 2007 (UTC)Reply
"The Byzantine Emperor Maurice forbade in his Strategikon the decimatio and other brutal punishments. According to him, punishments where the rank and file see their comrades dying by the hands of their own brothers-in-arms could lead to a collapse of morale. Moreover, it could seriously deplete the manpower of the fighting unit."
I think that this paragraph needs a citation. I've not found the Strategikon's passage where it is said that the decimatio was forbidden.Juancasilva (talk) 16:55, 19 May 2017 (UTC)Reply
"The current corporate managerial practice of rank and yank bears some similarities to this practice."
Can someone explain the connection? The implication is that sacking 10% of your workforce at random would improve productivity; “rank and yank” sounds more like culling. Xyl 54 12:06, 16 October 2007 (UTC)Reply
The dictionary says that the word itself is post-Augustan, while the practice was in use by at least 283 A.U.C. as Livy wrote. Did Caesar use this word, or Livy for that matter? Legis Nuntius (talk) 22:46, 24 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
Oxford Dictionaries has an interesting article on the term. Does ‘decimate’ really mean ‘destroy one tenth’?. It says that decimate comes from the Medieval Latin word decimatus, which means ‘to tithe’.Kuitan (talk) 18:49, 21 April 2015 (UTC)Reply
The article is unclear, or perhaps contradictory, regarding the guilt of those "decimated". It says
"Because the punishment fell by lot, all soldiers in the selected cohort were eligible for execution, regardless of guilt and innocence or rank and distinction."
But then
"the officers reject the idea of bludgeoning or slaughtering all the men involved [as is the case with a small group or an individual]. Instead they find a solution for the situation which chooses by a lottery system sometimes five, sometimes eight, sometimes twenty of these men, always calculating the number in this group with reference to the whole unit of offenders so that this group forms one-tenth of all those guilty of cowardice."
So the 1-in-10 is selected from "all the men *involved*", not *all the men*; so it's just 1 in 10 guilty parties who are killed, no? One tenth of "all those guilty", so this is *not* "regardless of guilt".
I think that should be amended. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.76.32.145 (talk) 20:08, 1 July 2009 (UTC)Reply
Terribly interesting article that is held back by its title. Since all other articles are derivations (in some sense) of this original meaning, its probably a good idea to move it to simply 'Decimation' and let the other two (rather obscure.. minor Marvel comic and computering?) disambig from there.
Also, this article only factually revolves around the Roman army in the beginning. Seems like a good 'origins' section to me, and all kinds of other input would be more welcomed.Yeago (talk) 07:36, 9 September 2009 (UTC)Reply
It is very strange that reference to veryyyyy doubtful author (see Antony Beevor's wikipage) is enough to add decimation in Red Army during Stalingrad battle as known fact. :(
Such provocative things should be confirmed and re-confirmed before added to article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.245.152.166 (talk) 10:55, 11 September 2009 (UTC)Reply
manders were 'worried and angry'. Although their infantry greatly outnumbered the Germans facing them, none of their tanks, no artillery, and few of their anti-tank guns had arrived. The situation proved even more disastrous for 64th Rifle Division, which was assembling to the rear. Morale collapsed under German air attacks, which also destroyed its field hospital killing many doctors and nurses. The wounded being taken to the rear recounted tales of horror which unnerved the inexperienced troops waiting in reserve to be marched forward. Individuals, then whole groups, began to desert. The divisional commander ordered the most fragile units to form up. He harangued and cursed them for such a cowardly failure to serve the Motherland. He then adopted the Roman punishment of decimation. With pistol drawn, he walked along the front rank counting in a loud voice. He shot every tenth man through the face at point-blank range until his magazine was empty. Zhukov, having just been appointed Deputy Supreme Commander, second only to Stalin, had arrived in Stalingrad on 29 August to oversee operations. He soon discovered that the three armies earmarked for the operations were ill-armed, manned by older reservists, and short of ammunition, as well as artillery. On the scrambler line to Moscow, he persuaded Stalin that the attack must be delayed by a week. Stalin agreed, but the German advance to the western edge of the city, now that Seydlitz's corps had linked up with Fourth Panzer Army, alarmed him again on 3 September. He rang General Vasilevsky, the chief of staff, demanding to know the exact position. As soon as Vasilevsky admitted that German tanks had reached the suburbs, his exasperation with Zhukov and other generals exploded. 'What's the matter with them, don't they understand that if we surrender Stalingrad, the south of the country will be cut off from the centre and will probably not be able to defend it? Don't they realize that this is not only a catastrophe for Stalingrad? We would lose our main waterway and soon our oil, too!' 'We are putting everything that can fight into the places under threat,' Vasilevsky replied as calmly as possible. 'I think there's still a chance that we won't lose the city.' A short time later Stalin rang back, then dictated a signal to be sent
The situation proved even more disastrous for 64th Rifle Division, which was assembling to the rear. Morale collapsed under German air attacks, which also destroyed its field hospital killing many doctors and nurses. The wounded being taken to the rear recounted tales of horror which unnerved the inexperienced troops waiting in reserve to be marched forward. Individuals, then whole groups, began to desert. The divisional commander ordered the most fragile units to form up. He harangued and cursed them for such a cowardly failure to serve the Motherland. He then adopted the Roman punishment of decimation. With pistol drawn, he walked along the front rank counting in a loud voice. He shot every tenth man through the face at point-blank range until his magazine was empty.
Zhukov, having just been appointed Deputy Supreme Commander, second only to Stalin, had arrived in Stalingrad on 29 August to oversee operations. He soon discovered that the three armies earmarked for the operations were ill-armed, manned by older reservists, and short of ammunition, as well as artillery. On the scrambler line to Moscow, he persuaded Stalin that the attack must be delayed by a week. Stalin agreed, but the German advance to the western edge of the city, now that Seydlitz's corps had linked up with Fourth Panzer Army, alarmed him again on 3 September. He rang General Vasilevsky, the chief of staff, demanding to know the exact position. As soon as Vasilevsky admitted that German tanks had reached the suburbs, his exasperation with Zhukov and other generals exploded. 'What's the matter with them, don't they understand that if we surrender Stalingrad, the south of the country will be cut off from the centre and will probably not be able to defend it? Don't they realize that this is not only a catastrophe for Stalingrad? We would lose our main waterway and soon our oil, too!'
'We are putting everything that can fight into the places under threat,' Vasilevsky replied as calmly as possible. 'I think there's still a chance that we won't lose the city.'
A short time later Stalin rang back, then dictated a signal to be sent
" The word decimation is often used to refer to an extreme reduction in the number of a population or force, much greater than the one tenth defined by the "deci" root. It is often inaccurately used as a synonym for the word "annihilate" which the OED lists as meaning "to reduce to non-existence, blot out of existence "
InSources:
Mathematically impossible. Did the last man kill one tenth of himself? Heavenlyblue (talk) 18:33, 28 June 2012 (UTC)Reply
Also, concerning its historicity: Theban_Legion#Criticism of the account Heavenlyblue (talk) 18:51, 28 June 2012 (UTC)Reply
Kanliot (talk) 14:18, 25 January 2013 (UTC) http://www.oed.com.ezproxy.plsinfo.org:2048/view/Entry/7893?rskey=A5fZHh&result=2#eid link doesn't work, maybe i'm not logged in to plsinfo.org? as of today, this is the last link in the footnotes.Reply
The text claimed Suetonius said Augustus used it "for the last time" in 17BC, but I don't see in Suetonius where it says that was the last time. S. also says Galba used decimation, and Galba came after Augustus. I fixed the text accordingly, but I'm no expert, so some expert please check it. I also don't know what year S. says G. did it; I don't know how Suetonius reports dates. Cbogart2 (talk) 01:58, 16 August 2013 (UTC)Reply
In the "See also" section some of the unicode appears for me as "?": http://i.imgur.com/RpVkZAs.png
Since you're reading this - could you do me a favor and answer a question "Can I embed an image in a talk page? And if so - how?" AllThatJazz2012 (talk) 09:06, 5 January 2016 (UTC)Reply
Huruslahti had nothing to do with decimation. See for reference s.232. Marko Tikka / Ajatuskirjat 2006 : Terrorin aika / ISBN 951-20-7051-0 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.23.200.178 (talk) 16:08, 9 May 2016 (UTC)Reply
The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. Opposers argue: that clickstream data show our readers often want other topics, inappropriate incoming links would be difficult to fix, and that decimation often means more general topics, such as a tenth of something or killing a large portion of a population. There may be consensus to move to Decimation (military punishment), but I'm not seeing a clear consensus in this discussion, so I would suggest a follow up discussion on that. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 23:39, 4 May 2021 (UTC)Reply
– Primary topic per both pageviews (over the last 30 days) and long-term significance. Plus the current title is a bad choice, because this punishment was not limited to the Romans. Srnec (talk) 00:02, 28 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: moved to Decimation (punishment). (closed by non-admin page mover) Elli (talk | contribs) 21:13, 14 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
Decimation (Roman army) → Decimation (military punishment) – This move was suggested by several editors during Talk:Decimation (Roman army)#Requested move 28 April 2021; but there was no formal proposal, and so could be no WP:CONSENSUS. I now make that formal proposal.
Although the practice is often associated with the Roman Republic and Roman Empire, the article makes it clear that it was not limited to there. Alexander the Great ordered one before Rome and Macedon ever came into conflict. There are also examples through the 17th to 20th centuries. It is uncertain if Marshal Luigi Cadorna actually ordered a decimation after one of the repeated bloodbaths at Caporetto during WWI, but the question of whether or not he did has been discussed seriously in scholarly literature; in addition to the enwiki article, see it:Decimazione#La decimazione nel Regio Esercito. Even if Rome has the dubious privilege of claiming priority, the qualifier (Roman army) is too narrow.
Courtesy pings to the editors who took part in that recent move discussion: Buidhe, Srnec, Egsan Bacon, Buistr, Dicklyon, Uanfala, P Aculeius, Avilich, Colin M and Zxcvbnm.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I can't find a ready online source that confirms that Alexander the Great used decimation. The current citation does not include a page number. There should, in addition, be a classical source, but I'm not aware of one. Andwats (talk) 15:40, 11 December 2023 (UTC)Reply