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This article is still listed as a stub (though this may be my fault, as I was the last to make a large addition to the article.) That said, what do you folks think should be added? At present, my thinking would be along the lines of more on the play in various zones, and perhaps expanded discussion of the various overall play styles by defencemen/defensemen. Others? Battlemonk 02:02, 2 March 2006 (UTC)Reply
Heights of 6'4" - 6' 7" seem suspiciously tall, even for professional ice hockey players. I know there have been some defenseman that tall and that pro-ice hockey players are above average in height, but 6'4" - 6' 7" on the average ? H Padleckas 03:56, 14 December 2005 (UTC)Reply
I think the spelling of the word "Defenceman" for ice hockey should be changed in all instances to "Defenseman". Other sports, such as cricket, should continue to use the british standard "Defenceman", but it doesn't make sense for ice hockey.
The issue at hand are certain differences in the English language that have come about between North America and England since the colonies were started. Most can be attributed to Webster's logicalization of english, and I'm not sure if that applies to this word specifically, but it's notable anyway. Other such words include "Tyre" and "Theatre"
I have many different reasons for changing it in relation to the hockey article, and this is why:
I believe I have proven that, in the case of ice hockey, the north american spelling should be used when describing this position. I have proven that there is not 100% consistancy in the usage, but I have also prove it is far more prevelently used by authoritative sources than the spelling "Defenceman" in the case of ice hockey.
"Defense" is the US spelling, not the North American spelling. The correct Canadian spelling is "defence" (as well as British). "Defensive" is the correct spelling of the word no matter where you are. See here for a reference. Note that Canadian English does not match US English exactly nor British English exactly. In the other examples you gave, the correct Canadian spelling is "tire", just like in the US, and "theatre", like in Britain. I believe that there is no reason to change the article name. -- JamesTeterenko 15:59, 27 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Hi original proposer here. I see there's pretty much no way of winning this one and bow to the overwhelming concensus. I almost give up. I like Kevlar67's suggestion regarding the spelling in articles about the NHL or any other US-centric ice hockey article. I checked around, and the spellings are "defencemen" in the NHL article and probably many other places that might have a better arguement for it there. I will raise the question again in the future after I find out how "Defens/ceman" is spelled (or if it is) in the inscription on the James Norris Memorial Trophy. --Jeff 23:03, 28 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Hey wait a minute! You should ***NOT*** be changing NHL articles just to fit your American tastes. Ice hockey is a Canadian game, and most of the players who've ever played for the NHL have been Canadian. Canadian spelling should be default for NHL articles. I don't give a crap about British spelling, it's Canadian spelling that counts in Ice Hockey. (Why would the European IIHF want to hold it's centennial celebration, the world championships, in Canada otherwise? Since Canada scrupiously ignores the IIHF otherwise). 132.205.45.148 19:17, 1 March 2006 (UTC)Reply
I know I'm coming into this about three years late, but I've had my eye on this article for a few months, and I must say that the spelling really should be defense, not defence. It seems like people are saying that changing the spelling to "defense" is "overbearingly American" while the same can be said that keeping it at "defence" is overbearingly Canadian. I absolutely love hockey, and play as a goalie several times a week. I will love Canadians forever for giving us this awesome game, but seeing as how Wikipedia headquarters is based in the United States, the James Norris Memorial Trophy has written on it "DEFENSIVE player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position" and the Frank J. Selke trophy has written on it "who demonstrates the most skill in the DEFENSIVE component of the game", the correct spelling should be defense. I've seen several good examples of why a change should be made (as can be seen by Jeff's comments above) but no good reasons as to why it should be kept except for "it's fine where it's at". People are saying that the largest contributing editor should have final say, but is that seriously the way to go about this? If the largest editor spells it "defincive" does that mean the spelling is correct? No. I know hockey has strong ties to Canada, but that should be irrelevant. I just looked on the Wikipedia page for Russia and saw the word "defense" spelled just like that. Why don't we change it to the way the Russians spell it? The word defense is used by the NHL as well, not defence. And while most players in the NHL may be Canadian, it is still mainly an American league. Seriously, there are a million reasons to change the spelling to defense, and the few reasons to keep it are weak at best. Any thoughts, or is everybody going still unnecessarily stubborn about this? Normally I could care less about this sort of issue, but after reading the archives, I'm hearing way more reasons to change it than to keep it, which sound to me like people are just being stubborn for the sake of being stubborn. Supergoalie1617 (talk) 00:47, 19 February 2009 (UTC)Reply
And going by pure consensus is one of the biggest reasons so many people consider Wikipedia unreliable. We should be more willing to find the truth and research these issues than to just take a vote and say "um, I think it's ok". First off, everywhere I've looked online has the Norris spelling "defense" not "defence". Can you provide picture proof? I've looked around online but haven't been able to find it. Second, I get that "defence" is the Canadian spelling, but this website was created in the US, not Canada. Third, it doesn't matter than a majority of NHL players are Canadian. It really does not. I don't understand why this argument stands up. My favorite team, the Sharks, has like 3 American born players on it, a majority are Canadian. Do they play the Canadian National Anthem? No, because it's an American team in an American league (unless they are playing against a Canadian team of course). So the fact that there's a ton of Canadians in the NHL doesn't really matter. I hear you when you say that "defence" is apparantely how it's spelled in "pretty much every english speaking country in the world except the US" (not sure who "pretty much" is supposed to be, but whatever), but my problem is that there needs to be a standard. I've read that the guy who invented basketball was from Canada. Why isn't it spelled "defence" on basketball articles? Do you see the problem? If we don't have a standard like en-us, we spend more time over quibbles like this that we do actually improving the article. I've seen a TON of sites on Wikipedia that have arguments like this (defense/defence, or center/centre). I also love how everytime I spell the word "defence" as I write this, the word gets underlined like I'm spelling it wrong... The standard should be en-us, that way we can avoid discussions like this and get on with improving the article. I've presented good reasons for the spelling to be "defense" and Jeff posted some good ones too. The arguments for "defence" have brought us nothing but weasel words (like the "pretty much" you wrote earlier) and people going off about concensus because people would rather just say "yeah whatever, it's fine" then actually do some research. If you are that adamant about keeping it the way it is, whatever, I'm not going to make a huge deal about it. But if the almighty WP:CONCENSUS is all that matters, don't be surprised that the world continues to see Wikipedia as a joke. Stubbornness and Canadian bias is the only thing keeping "defence" alive. If I may quote Oliver Kamm "Wikipedia seeks not truth but consensus, and like an interminable political meeting the end result will be dominated by the loudest and most persistent voices."
Supergoalie1617 (talk) 23:03, 19 February 2009 (UTC)Reply
OK, I do see what you're trying to say, but if I may...
First, this specific talk page hasn't had a discussion in this in several years, but I've seen other talk pages where arguments over this such thing take up a TON of room, and were discussed very recently. I only brought it up on this specific page cause it's the main article for "defenceman"
Second, there is a contradiction in part of your argument. You start by saying "[the NHL] has Canadian teams and it's head office is in Toronto with a satelite office in New York." OK, you are trying to say that because the NHL's main office is in Canada, the NHL can't be considered an American league, inferring that it is more of a Canadian league. Which, while on that topic, the NHL has 24 American teams, compared to Canada's 6, and I can't even remember when a Canadian team last won the cup. I'm sure you are already thinking "well most NHL'ers are Canadian" but if you read above I already diffused that argument. But anyways, you turn around and say that since Wiki has servers in 3 different countries (with it's main office, the location Wiki started, being in Florida), it can't be considered an American website. So does an organization/website having it's main office in a certain country make it tied to that country or not? Do you see the contradiction? Where the NHL is concerned, only the main office counts, not the satellite offices. But where Wiki is concerned, you turn around and say it doesn't matter where the main office is located. Contradictions like that are a strong indication of bias, because you are trying to twist things around to fit your views.
Third, yeah the inventor of basketball started it in the US, but you can still argue that basketball has strong ties to Canada, since it gave us the inventor of basketball. If Canada blew up before the basketball inventor was born, we would not have basketball (unless someone else invented it later, but you see my point) You see, there is simply too much confusion on what makes something have "strong ties" to a region. Since Wiki has no standard for this, it makes sense to go with en-us since that's where Wiki started (hey, wait a minute, Wiki has "strong ties" to the United States. Everything should be in en-us according to that...). With no standard, everything is subject to bias, such as this article. Again, I don't expect you or anybody to change all these articles, I'm just curious to see if you are willing to admit there is no good reason to have it spelled defence instead of defense other than bias.Supergoalie1617 (talk) 05:17, 23 February 2009 (UTC)Reply
Yes, this is English Wikipedia, not American English OR Canadian English wikipedia. If that paragraph isn't calling the kettle black, I don't know what is. You interpret "English" wikipedia as "Canadian" wikipedia, then get on me for saying that it should mean "American" wikipedia. You say "I know it's felt around the world (weasel words, no citations, a continuing indication that you are making this up as you go) that American's try to claim everything as their own." Sorry for suggesting that a website founded by an American who was born in America while living in America with it's main HQ based in America should be suggested as American... There is no American bias trying to overrule everything (in fact, it appears that Canadian bias has taken over here). You want to keep these articles Canadian-centric while getting on an American trying to do something similiar. I am simply suggesting a standard as to avoid this kind of thing. Make all of wikipedia en-ca, I could care less, just make SOME kind of standard. I've asked you what constitutes something as having a "strong tie" to a region, even giving the founder of basketball being Canadian as an example, but you have dodged the question several times now. Will I ever get a decent response with no weasel words? Another thing is that the article starts with (defense in the US), which implies it's spelled defense ONLY in the US and defence everywhere else in the world, which is not even close to being the case. It also shows the Canadian bias against America even more, because it singles out the US and none of the other countries that spell it "defense". In the above discussion, Jeff shows that defense is used far more than defence internationally, but that clearly does not matter to you. The only reason I started this discussion was to see if there was a good reason for the spelling to be "defence" over "defense". I have found none, yet I have read and brought up several good points as to why it should be "defense". Unfortunately all responses to my statements have been weasel words and uncited claims. It's obvious to me that bias and anti-Americanism is the only thing keeping it "defence", so I'm going to let this go. I've seen what I need to see.
I'm inclined to X this section out as another doomed-to-be-POV-ridden bit overwhelmingly (as is usually the case with these lists) stuffed with current players; excuse me, nine out of the twelve most notable defensemen in hockey history played within the last five years, Wade Redden's among them, and Doug Harvey isn't? No. I'd be interested to hear what people think, but we either need to get this section under control and keep it there, or just lose it altogether Ravenswing 13:52, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply
The result of the move request was moved to non-disambiguated title; issue can be revisited if other defenceman articles are created. -- Aervanath (talk) 20:04, 9 May 2009 (UTC)Reply
Move to "Defenceman"? It redirects here. RandySavageFTW (talk) 00:45, 20 November 2008 (UTC)Reply
So what if there's other defenceman. If they don't have articles there's no point in having the dab. We can continue to link to defenceman (ice hockey) so if there ever is others they'll link there, though. RandySavageFTW (talk) 23:09, 29 April 2009 (UTC)Reply
If there's nothing to disambiguate from, then there's no point in disambiguation. It's true that the redirect is already in place, which makes the change almost identical to no change. The only difference I can think of is that leaving the article where it is now is slightly more likely to result in double-redirects than moving the article would. I can't see a particularly compelling argument for either side of the question. -GTBacchus(talk) 23:55, 7 May 2009 (UTC)Reply
The result of the move request was: not moved. We don't move articles from an acceptable spelling to another unless there are strong national ties to a certain spelling. Jafeluv (talk) 14:52, 20 January 2010 (UTC)Reply
Defenceman → Defenseman — Based, primarily, on WP:UCN. I see the discussion above (which is from 2006 by the way, please see WP:CCC), but I'm definitely unconvinced. The "defence"/"defenceman" spelling appears to be either some sort of neologism, or an anachronistic spelling (although it may be used in the Cricket world, the coverage of which I'm not familiar with). I know for certain that I have plenty of exposure to Hockey publications, including a couple of Canadian published magazines (the most notable of which being The Hockey News, of course), and I can't recall ever seeing this prior to becoming more active here. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but someone should start the convincing.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 21:41, 13 January 2010 (UTC)Reply
Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rest can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Fcuknig amzanig huh?
That is/was a fairly popular internet meme for quite a while there. For more on the issue around that, Articles: Is Spelling Important? looks to be a pretty good resource. Incidentally, I looked around, and it doesn't appear that we have an article on that study/meme here on Wikipedia. That seems like it'd be a good idea for someone to work on... maybe I'll add an article request at Wikipedia:Requested articles.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 17:48, 15 January 2010 (UTC)Reply
Note: This discussion has been linked to from Wikipedia_talk:Canadian_Wikipedians'_notice_board
This article should not be tagged with the WikiProject Canada banner. I removed it the other day, but this was not an established thing I was undoing—the banner was only added about three weeks ago by an IP editor who didn't add the same banner anywhere else. Probably just browsed by and thought, "This seems relevant to Canada...". I removed it because the position has no more to do with Canada than fighting in ice hockey, coach (ice hockey), ice hockey rink, checking (ice hockey), Jeremy Roenick, or the Elitserien—these things are related to the sport, but not so much related directly to Canada.
Yes, ice hockey is Canada's national winter sport. The article on ice hockey should be tagged with this WikiProject. In fact, I just added the banner to Talk:Ice hockey. That's right, the same IP didn't add it there, which confirms my suspicion that this was just an innocent drive-by edit not given much thought. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 21:40, 27 February 2010 (UTC)Reply
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