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morris da moose says this page sucks cause me spent like an hour searching for a pic of a car engine and not 1 found —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.169.87.243 (talk) 17:50, 4 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
Can someone explain the difference between a motor and an engine in the article? basilwhite 18:45 EST Feb 11, 2006
this should be a disambiguation page. strictly, an engine is a device that converts heat into work. new uses of the word are obviously quite different
Yes, please add a disambiguation page. Was just looking for a link for "engine" in the "video game engine"/software sense.
I have also been puzzled by the difference between an "engine" and a "motor." I think this is a question that is best answered by someone who has the credentials to do so, but I would like to provide two references and state my opinion on the subject.
Frederick J. Carranti, P.E. of Syracuse University posted a message defining the two terms. He defines a motor as a『device which converts electrical energy into mechanical energy.』Then he goes on to define engine as a "device that converts chemical energy or heat energy into mechanical energy."
The Wikipedia Article on Internal combustion engines states that "although the terms sometimes cause confusion, there is no real difference between an 'engine' and a 'motor.'" That statement is not referenced, so personally I do not find that to be a credible source for information.
I have yet to find any source that defines the two terms opposite of the first source that I referenced, therefore I think the controversy is only whether or not there is a difference.
I think the first source defined the difference well and should be taken into account in the related Wikipedia articles on the subject. I would, however, like there to be a more stable reference that can be cited rather than just a forum post. SpikeBoy 06:06, 17 February 2007 (UTC)Reply
An engine basically converts chemical energy (fuel) into kinetic energy. A motor does the opposite i.e. converts electrical energy into kinetic energy.
A generator set converts chemical energy (fuel) into kinetic energy then into electrical energy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 15.203.169.105 (talk) 17:22, 18 March 2009 (UTC)Reply
Etymologically speaking, a "motor" is something that produces movement[1]—whereas an "engine" is a device.[2] For all intents and purposes, they are semantically equivalent (although an electric motor is usually implied by modern usage).[3]--Aaagmnr (talk) 04:30, 5 February 2010 (UTC)Reply
A motor is a device that makes mechanical shaft power by conversion of some other form of energy. An engine does that through a heat cycle. You have an electrical motor, and a gasoline, or steam, or heat engine. An engine is a subset of motors.
References
The problem is that all of you must be too young and do not care about history. I am not old but I devour history-related stuff. Let me explain. You are all in 2022 but you must check the historic use of both words. Go back in time. Initially, no one used neither "engine" nor "motor". They used other words that might sound very funny now. In rough chronological order, in Greece, no later than the 1st. century BC, they called it aeolipile; in 1551 Ottoman Empire, Taqī al-Dīnin called it "spiritual machine" (do not ask me to write it in its original language, please, but it was used to turn a spit); in England, initially, professor Gerbertus did not even care to give a name to it but it was a part of his organ (not that "organ", you, filthy-minded Wikipedian); but later the English got steam jacks (yeah, spiritual machines!!). Finally, in 1606, the Spaniard Jerónimo de Ayanz y Beaumont got a patent for what he called "ingenios de vapor" (yes, you guessed right, engines!!!, in this case, steam engines). The English kept calling it "steam engine" as Ayanz did but the Spanish, at some point switched to "máquina de vapor"; and, in most European languages they call them "steam machines".
So, let us summarize a bit before we go even deeper: The steam engine WAS NOT a steam engine at those times. And a DC motor WAS not a DC motor. We use these terms as retronyms. Then, a lot of years later, the word "engine" got the spotlight and later, "motor". The former for steam engines and the latter for electric motors (DC only at those times).
Then, at some point, I guess around the end of the 19th century, they started to use the word "motor" for the internal combustion engines (ICEs). Even several companies and government agencies still keep this word as a part of their names, e. g., (Department of Motor Vehicles). And no one complained like you do because, at that time, they were already synonyms. I don't know when they started to use the word "motor" for electric motors. I do know they used funny names initially, too. Faraday called his motor "apparatus for revolution of wire and magnet". And by 1830s, it was strictly distinguished between the magnetic-electro machines, i.e. electric generators; and electro-magnetic machines, i.e. electric motors. But, I guess a good way to find out is to check all patents related to these inventions and check the words and names they used every year. So, that is your final project for the term, kids. Find out and then let me know. The best one gets extra credits!!
So, in short, "engine" and "motor" are indeed synonyms. At least, in the broad sense, they are and current dictionaries support such equivalence. An ICE is a motor and a DC motor is an engine.
Now, lets us talk about the state of things for other languages. In Spanish, they now only use "motor" and the word "ingenio" still exists but its use to mean "machinery" is now considered obsolete except for sugar mills which are called "ingenios azucareros". In French they use "engin" to designate a machine intended to supplement workers in their tasks of lifting, transport, excavation, construction, demolition, etc; and, they use "motor" for both engine and motor. In German, they use "motor". So, in most European languages, they DO NOT have this problem. Everything is a motor!!
So, now, you know it and I know it. But, let us stick to current convention for the sake of a healthy communication. So, what is the current convention? In fact there is a "general" convention with several "exceptions". The following 5 statements make up the general convention:
1. A prime-mover is an artifact that accomplishes minimally one of two functions: energy conversion. This function "follows" the other explained below.
2. The other possible function is fuel storage (a form of chemical energy storage); or, energy "generation" or energy storage (in the form of something that is not considered "fuel" in the strict sense). This function can be performed by the prime-mover or, by an additional device. Whether the additional device is considered a part or not of the prime-mover is material for another lengthy discussion. However, only if this function is being carried out, the one mentioned above can kick in. Not the other way around.
3. Prime-movers can be classified as engines or motors. (Remember that this is the CURRENT convention and it has been changing and may continue to do so).
4. The other function of an engine is fuel storage.
5. The other function of a motor is energy generation (e. g., a dynamo); or, non-fuel energy storage (e. g., electric battery).
Now comes the most shocking thing: STEAM ENGINES ARE NOT ENGINES, THEY ARE MOTORS!!! I will explain this below:
Steam engines, FIRSTLY, GENERATE the steam (which is the working fluid of this heat engine). This steam holds the energy needed as input by the steam engine to continually operate. How the engine generates the steam maybe considered irrelevant. What we should now mention now is that there is an "external" combustion to accomplish that generation of energy. You might even think that another engine (where the external combustion is happening) is such engine. Additionally, this "generation" of energy may be misleading for the students of Thermodynamics (energy can only be transformed) but this "generation" is simply a "previous" transformation of energy. The output energy of this previous transformation is used as input energy by the steam engine.
Steam engines, SECONDLY, CONVERT the energy kinetic energy of the steam to produce mechanical work. The extended version of this process starts with heat which is the flow of thermal energy into the steam. This thermal energy is molecularly associated with the kinetic energy of the steam. The kinetic energy of the steam is transferred to one or more pistons when the steam exerts work on them. And from then on, several pieces of machinery allow the "transmission" of this kinetic energy (with losses obviously as this is the real world, guys).
Now, remember, stick to the convention and ALSO to exceptions. Steam engines are an exception. Rocket motors are an exception (fortunately, many call them engines).
I have to say that, of all the languages I speak, English is the only one that currently uses two words the usage of which is currently based, purposely or by chance, on the general convention with its very few exceptions.
(This was the "short" version. The "real deal" is in one of my storage media).
George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 00:00, 22 April 2022 (UTC)Reply
"An engine is something that produces some effect from a given input." Sorry, "some effect"? Mechanical/Kinetic energy may fit better?
This section is extremely skewed. After a huge time jump from the previous section, it briefly hints that other types of engine have existed and then goes on to the history of the internal combustion engine - which ought to be covered by internal combustion engine.
This should be the top-level article linking into the various types of steam engine, various types of ICE, and other engines, which surely include windmills, watermills, HEP turbines, etc, etc EdJogg 00:46, 1 March 2007 (UTC)Reply
Agree totally. And with removal of most of ICE stuff. Intro is horrible, Usage and Antiquity sections are on the right path. Someone get editing ! Jimbowley (talk) 18:58, 29 November 2007 (UTC)Reply
An internal combustion engine is not a heat engine. They take in fuel and output work. Combustion of the fuel/air increases the temperature of the working fluid, not heat transfer. Heat engines take in heat and output work. For example, Stirling engines, steam engines and steam turbine (Rankine) cycles are heat engines. Heat engines can involve the burning of fuel or not. If fuel is burned it is strictly to create a hot medium which will then transfer heat into the heat engine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.12.147.25 (talk) 16:36, 7 April 2011 (UTC)Reply
"Again an aircraft will have many motors installed for operation of its many auxiliary operations and services, but aircraft are propelled by engines, in this case, jet engines." This is not strictly accurate. Not all aircraft have multiple motors, not all even have an engine(s), as in the case of gliders and balloons. Also, not all aircraft that use an engine(s) use jet engines, as in the case of prop planes. If there is no objection in the next month or so I will remove the sentence. 67.160.147.2 (talk) 01:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)Reply
A Wikipedia article that fails to inform readers that some sources don't use a technical term in the way that a certain group of engineers approves of is concealing true information simply because a group doesn't like it. As a matter of policy, Wikipedia is not censored. See also Linguistic prescription, Political correctness, etc. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 01:55, 24 March 2017 (UTC)Reply
I removed this sentenct from the lead paragraph of the Drive shaft article: "Most engines or motors deliver power as torque through rotary motion: this is extracted from the linear motion of pistons in a reciprocating engine; water driving a water wheel; or forced gas or water in a turbine." Rather than just destroying it, I'm placing it here in case anyone wants to merge it into this Engine article, where it may be more appropriate. -- Another Stickler (talk) 20:04, 17 December 2008 (UTC)Reply
...because it is of a coffee machine, not an engine!! (Sorry, I hit return before edit summary was finished.) EdJogg (talk) 01:35, 5 February 2009 (UTC)Reply
that section links to itself multiple times, it is redundant —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.17.212.38 (talk) 00:44, 25 May 2009 (UTC)Reply
A new section should be added to the article called Engine cooling. I placed a link at the see also section, but this is not enough, it needs its own section in the article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.66.57.202 (talk) 16:52, 2 October 2009 (UTC)Reply
And why? Seems to me that is a detail best covered on the page about the Internal combustion engine. This is a general page; I don't see any need to clutter it up with technical details, especially as the cooling system of an engine is really a separate system, not a part of the actual engine itself..45Colt 14:11, 8 February 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by .45Colt (talk • contribs)
The ranges you can produce from a real engine are so vast why bother including statistics that are destined to be wrong? Emissions vary based on air fuel ratios, load, cyclinder geometry, catalytic converter, etc. etc. etc. I can pick a couple of the figures stated here as wrong straight away based on an emmisions test I got on my own car, the rest are arguable at best. Modern cars are very clean in comparison to a few decades ago, let's hear about all those technologies, not what a 5 litre V8 released in the 70's. And rather than a roundabout way of attributing global warming to engines, let's hear a real statistic about the conribution of private-owned automotive engines to the greenhouse effect, e.g. jackdiddlysquat% 192.198.151.37 (talk) 12:58, 5 October 2009 (UTC)Reply
I changed the definition to An engine is a generator that produces mechanical force and motion from another form of energy (eg a fuel source, compressed gas (eg air) or electricity). [1]It is also referred to as a prime mover.
A engine is a generator as seen at the generator article
This is more clear to understand and more accurate ? I'm guessing that a generator that generates mechanical force from another mechanical force or a fuel from a mechanical force (eg as with flowing water, ... as a power source) isn't called anything at all (weirdly enough). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.245.90.148 (talk) 08:46, 9 October 2009 (UTC)Reply
The article seems to be mostly about internal combustion engines, but steam engines, electric motors, gas turbines (that are not necessarily driven by steam or internal combustion), external combustion engines are more where it needs to be. It needs to cover everything; it's not about horizontally opposed versus anything; that's in internal combustion.
It's just all wrong right now.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 03:35, 6 November 2009 (UTC)Reply
This article has been edited by a user who is known to have misused sources to unduly promote certain views (see WP:Jagged 85 cleanup). Examination of the sources used by this editor often reveals that the sources have been selectively interpreted or blatantly misrepresented, going beyond any reasonable interpretation of the authors' intent.
Please help by viewing the entry for this article shown at the cleanup page, and check the edits to ensure that any claims are valid, and that any references do in fact verify what is claimed. Tobby72 (talk) 08:42, 4 September 2010 (UTC)Reply
All well and good, but a liquid rocket is powered by engines and a solid rocket is powered by motors. As both are doing exactly the same thing (providing motive force to a vehicle) in pretty much the same way (converting chemical energy into kinetic energy), this begs the question as to whether you guys have difinitively resolved the engine vs. motor thingie. In 30 years as a combustion engineer (including solid rockets, gas turbines, and diesels), I never bothered to resolve this question, heard anyone explain it, or even ask someone (like a professor), but I suspect it may have something to do with thermodynamic cycles. Engines generally are following one (diesel engines, gas turbines, liquid rockets, etc.), while motors don't (solid rockets, electic motors, etc.) - just a thought. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.158.61.139 (talk) 20:54, 1 February 2011 (UTC)Reply
Why does the word "motor" link to here? An engine is different from a motor. Whether it's a stub or not, there needs to be a separate article for a motor. The two can not be interchangeable here, and it is incorrect usage of terminology. ForestAngel (talk) 11:04, 12 February 2011 (UTC) 11:03, 12 February 2011 (UTC)Reply
I went ahead and removed the redirect and created a page distinctly for motor. It's pretty empty, but hopefully, for the time being, it can exist to create the distinction and quell confusion between an "engine" and a "motor."--JC Berger (talk) 22:18, 1 November 2012 (UTC)Reply
What is important to find out is how we started to use the word "motor" instead of engine to refer to an internal combustion engine (ICE). The steam-powered machines dominated the power market and I guess someone decided to use the word "motor" to get some distance from the past. I also guess something similar happened with the DC motor. But, I am pretty sure the inventors and early innovators of the DC motor never used the word "motor" as I am quite sure the inventors of the ICE never used the word "motor" either. I know Benz used the word "motor" in his patented car. There are several companies and government agencies bearing the word "motor" as a reminder of that (marketing?) decision. However, the word "engine" came back to claim its rightful place, so no one checks the motor of his car but the engine nowadays. George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 03:58, 10 April 2022 (UTC)Reply
Just found an interesting (recent) article at the Oxford English Dictionary site about the evolution of the word 'engine':
It may help further shape this article. (Not by me, though, this time I'm just passing through...) -- EdJogg (talk) 22:45, 18 February 2011 (UTC)Reply
I agree, that's some interesting stuff. I'd like to see something about that on here as well; I think it's relevant to the topic. Only I'm not much of an editor, and I don't know if that is considered reference material or not. Seems legit to me..45Colt 14:02, 8 February 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by .45Colt (talk • contribs)
Don548 (talk) 18:11, 29 April 2011 (UTC)Reply
It sounds like the combustion efficiency section is referring to the early 20th century, when four cylinders had about 40 hp and V-8s had what? The 1930s Ford flathead V8 engine had about 65 hp. It doesn't make sense to compare 1920-1930 40 hp I4s with 1960s and later 250-450 hp V-8s. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:56, 13 June 2012 (UTC)Reply
Actually, typical European small cars did have that sort of power in the 1960's. A VW Beetle had a 36hp engine. A Mini had about the same. Perhaps some were making more, but even sports cars rarely broke 100hp back then. I suppose 60hp is a more realistic number on average. Only expensive and/or large cars had more power. But, during this period there were lots of American 2-barrel V8's making only about 150hp, and there were also lots of straight-six powered cars sold in the US that often fell under or around 100hp. I agree that this sentence is generalizing and misleading. MOST cars sold in the US were not hi-po versions. .45Colt 13:58, 8 February 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by .45Colt (talk • contribs)
I know this has been hashed over ten thousand times, but the sentence saying " An engine is a device that burns or otherwise consumes fuel, changing its chemical composition, whereas a motor is a device driven by electricity, which does not change the chemical composition of its energy source" is wrong. A motor does NOT have to be driven by electricity, hence "pneumatic motor", etc. Perhaps a motor is a device that converts energy into motion, but it does not have to be powered by electricity. And just as my two cents, I subscribe to the school of thought that says a motor is something that powers or imparts motion, while an engine is something that converts heat into work. Therefore, a an engine is a type of motor, but a motor is not an engine. .45Colt 13:53, 8 February 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by .45Colt (talk • contribs)
I have been editing this article for some time now and am currently attempting to clean it up: indeed, among the most teething problems are that it covers combustion engines too deeply and often repeats content in certain areas. I am open to suggestions and would not mind some help with areas concerning engines other than petrol engines. Hayazin (talk) 23:15, 16 February 2015 (UTC)Reply
I know security is not Wikipedia's issue, but has anyone noticed the amount of anonymous vandalism constantly occurring on this page and how many edits are constantly reverted either by registered users or by ClueBot? Maybe it's the wrong page on which to talk about this subject, but it's been disturbing me. I started some months ago a personal effort to give this page some new life, and it's been only preserved. And if it occurs on this page, it can certainly spread to more vital articles.
Just felt like I had to say it. Hayazin (talk) 22:36, 14 August 2015 (UTC)Reply
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Engine/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
The definition of engine presently in wikipedia represents a cultural bias toward perception of an engine as a mechanical device that imparts motion. In essence an engine is a product of our genious, a devising of our ingenuity. It can perform any function, a microscope, a mathematical process for detecting significant data among raw data, a software graphics engine. Examples can be found in the Oxford dictionary.
A motor is an engine that imparts motion. Noel Fuller 123.100.105.241 (talk) 00:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)Reply |
Last edited at 00:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 14:30, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
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engine (disambiguation) states An engine is a device that converts potential energy into mechanical work.
however, this article says
Motor and engine later came to be used largely interchangeably in casual discourse. However, technically, the two words have different meanings. An engine is a device that burns or otherwise consumes fuel, changing its chemical composition, whereas a motor is a device driven by electricity, air, or hydraulic pressure, which does not change the chemical composition of its energy source.[4] However, rocketry uses the term rocket motor, even though they consume fuel.
as I read this I think of the context of a gravity battery driving an electric motor
should the description in engine (disambiguation) be made more specific?
My intuition is that wikipedia would be better off with *all* 'overloaded' words being a disambiguation page, to force users to think twice about what context they really mean (engine (motor), whatever..)
MfortyoneA (talk) 07:44, 23 September 2017 (UTC)Reply
Some dictionary definitions:
Major dictionaries seem to agree that 'motor' and 'engine' are the same thing. Counter examples are, of course, welcome. I suspect the split came about when hybrids became popular. The internal combustion engine was sometimes called a motor and sometimes an engine depending on where you live. Electric motors were always called motors. So it makes sense to keep calling the electric motor as the motor and then force the oily part to take the other choice - engine. My 3¢ worth of armchair etymology. Stepho talk 04:33, 24 September 2017 (UTC)Reply
The error we see repeatedly with engine and motor is someone pedantically lecturing "Well, ACTUALLY..." and claiming there is a "technical" difference, without defining for us what "technically" is supposed to mean. In rare and obscure cases where you are in some narrow field in which there needs to be a distinction between these two terms, you can agree to observe this distinction about motion and energy. But any such distinction doesn't carry over into general use. The OED definitions emphasize that they are usually the same thing: motor A machine that supplies motive power for a vehicle or other device with moving parts; (in later use) esp. one powered by electricity, internal combustion, or compressed air. Cf. engine n. 9. engine 9. The part of a car, boat, aircraft, or other vehicle which provides propulsive force; (in later use) esp. one powered by internal combustion. Cf. motor n. 5a, power plant n. dictionary.com says motor a comparatively small and powerful engine, especially an internal-combustion engine in an automobile, motorboat, or the like. engine: a machine for converting thermal energy into mechanical energy or power to produce force and motion. The first synonym for motor? engine. And vice versa. American Heritage is one of the few dictionaries that takes anything like a strong position: engine a. A machine that converts energy into mechanical force or motion. b. Such a machine distinguished from an electric, spring-driven, or hydraulic motor by its use of a fuel. And yet... A-H says motor A device that converts any form of energy into mechanical energy, especially an internal-combustion engine or an arrangement of coils and magnets that converts electric current into mechanical power.
Again and again and again dictionaries tell us a motor can be internal combustion OR electric.
You can't call this usage slang. That's incorrect. Not a single dictionary does that. The closest we can come to that is Encarta Dictionary that says it is "informal" to all an automotive engine a motor. Besides taht outlier, they all treat it as standard English.
Terms like hopefullyorliterally, could still be called problematic in a few circles, but engine and motor don't even come close to those. This article can say it's true that a few have guys tried to push everyone into making a strong distinction between motor and engine, but clearly they lost. It never caught on because they never showed us their evidence, because they have none. Wikipedia shouldn't be giving any support to this myth, other than mentioning it in passing, and reassuring readers that it's not wrong to say a car has a motor, which is the engine, a rocket has a motor, which is the engine. Does anyone every say "electric engine"? Yes: [1][2], etc. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:16, 5 September 2018 (UTC)Reply
We're going to need to rewrite engine (disambiguation) and motor (disambiguation) to stop pushing this false distinction. The statements we have now, "An engine is a device that converts energy in one form into mechanical energy" and "A motor is a mechanical or electrical device that creates motion", are contradicted by too many sources, which say those are only particular definitions, but they are in no way the primary definitions. They should say some thing like "An engine is a machine that powers a vehicle or device, especially one that converts energy or fuel into mechanical energy. In standard English engine and motor are synonyms, while in some specialized jargon they are distinct." and "A motor is a machine that provides power to a vehicle or device, especially one powered by electricity, or fluid flow. In standard English engine and motor are synonyms, while in some specialized jargon they are distinct." --Dennis Bratland (talk) 01:46, 6 September 2018 (UTC)Reply
I can clarify. You are all in 2022 but you must check the historic use of both words. Go back in time. Initially, no one used neither "engine" nor "motor". They used other words that might sound very funny now. The steam engine WAS NOT a steam engine at those times. And a DC motor WAS not a DC motor. We use these terms as retronyms. Then, a lot of years later, the word "engine" got the spotlight and later, "motor". The former for steam engines and the latter for electric motors (DC only at those times). Then, at some point, I guess around the end of the 19th century, they started to use the word "motor" for the ICEs (several companies and government agencies still keep this word as a part of their names). And no one complained like you do because at that time, they were already synonyms. (https://books.google.com.ec/books?id=hygxAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA3). I don't know when they started to use the word "motor" for electric motors. But, I guess a good way to find out is to check all patents related to these inventions and check the words they used every year. So, in short, they are synonyms. But, I think it is wise to stick to the current usage of both words to avoid confusion. An ICE is a motor and a DC motor is an engine. You know it and I know it. But, let us stick to current convention for the sake of a healthy communication. George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 04:21, 10 April 2022 (UTC)Reply
I'm proposing that we merge some of the contents from there after carving out all the original research and unverifiable statements. There's no reason to have a separate page each for yacht engine, train engine, motorcycle engine, tank engine, lawn mower engine and so on. Graywalls (talk) 10:43, 21 November 2019 (UTC)Reply
ok— Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.133.236.236 (talk) 14:24, 3 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
As I found the article earlier today, the lead was stuck in a pedagogic rut and not doing a great job of painting a broad picture or summarizing the article content. I took a stab at this, and added a fair amount of new material. The resulting prose strikes me as adequate, but not great. Perhaps I went slightly deeper into the weeds on emissions than I should have, but that's a hot topic these days (pardon my small pun).
In any case, I'm a fly-by-night editor, who visits many articles, often makes a small change, sometimes makes a more substantive, and then moves along to the next thing. In order to travel light, I take little ownership in my past contributions; feel free to edit at will. — MaxEnt 04:53, 9 August 2021 (UTC)Reply