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Latest comment: 5 months ago8 comments8 people in discussion
Since this is the English language wikipedia, the name used by English speakers, Lake Scutari must be used. This is the name used in Rand McNally maps, Encyclopedia Brittanica, and MSN Encarta, etc. Imperial7816:46, 5 July 2006 (UTC)Reply
I can see why it might be an idea to use the Albanian name because the lake's named after the Albanian city but most of the city is located in Montenegro. Plus all guide books that I have to the country - Lonely Planet's Montenegro guide, Lonely Planet's West Balkans guide and Bradt's Montenegro guide use the Montenegrin/Serbian name first and as the title of the relevant chapters. You might say that that's because it's a guide to Montenegro and not Albania but you'll notice that guide books to Italy use the names Venice rather than Venezia, Florence not Firenze and Naples instead of Napoli. So long as there is a redirect in place it shouldn't matter anyway.--109.228.122.164 (talk) 20:22, 17 September 2010 (UTC)Reply
It has be called by the name of the Albanian city that it has always belonged to, Shkodra, therefore the proper name is Lake of Shkodra / Shkodër or Shkodra lake. Andi Shkambi (talk) 01:08, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
Neither of you are correct. The name is ancient and it comes from, for lack of a better word, Illirian language. albanians are not descendants of Illirians since they came to this region in the middle ages, after they ran away from Sicily where they were brought to defend the island from various intruders from both south and north. The original word is Skadra, which is reflected in present-day albanian language - which in turn is a form of Illirian language the immigrants inherited from the locals - name for the lake Shkodër, and in Slavic version Skadar. Both being derivatives from the original Skadra. What anglosaxons and similar foreigners call it is misleading, to put it mildly. They also call the southern region of Europe "balkan", when there was never such a region in European history. The acrual word "balkan" was colloquial name turks used for the mountain Stara Planina in Bulgaria. Also wrong is to claim that the southern Europe is a "peninsula". This is gross ignorance and, in my view intentional, misnomer since everyone knows that for a piece of land to be called "peninsula" it MUST be connected to the rest of the mainland by a THIN strip of land called ISHTMUS, and surrounded by the same body of water. The southern Europe is clearly not a separate piece of land within the same body of water and there is no thin strip of land anywhere to be seen. Using the name "balkan" and calling the region a "peninsula" is an IQ test failure for everyone who uses these terms. And locals are mostly offended by the name since it is a reminder of brutal turkish invasion and occupation. These two terms must be removed and a correct terminology must be used. But, this being just a wiki"pedia" - I wonder what that does really means, the "pedia" part - I do not expect the facts and science to be of primary concern for anonymous self-styled "experts" who clearly are yet to leave an elementary school. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.148.61.170 (talk) 02:33, 21 January 2021 (UTC)Reply
Albanians didn't come to the region in the middle ages. Albanians are in the region way before the Slavs who came in the 6th century. The Albanian language is an attestation to that, which has Illyrian, Roman, and Ancient Greek elements. Please someone ban this revisionist and spreader of misinformation from wikipedia. 142.114.118.180 (talk) 03:28, 14 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
Either way, I support the suggestion of changing the Articles name to "Lake Scutari" since it has been used more often in geography books and so on. Using the serbo-croatian (montenegrin) variant seems also more like of a POV.
Latest comment: 17 years ago9 comments3 people in discussion
To merge histories of the page here (currently Skadar Lake) and (partially) at Skadarsko Lake, I deleted this page, then moved the history at Skadarsko Lake here, deleted this as well and then restore all. There was almost no overlap in the page histories. At some point, someone had copy-and-pasted the article from one title to another one. -- User:Docu 21:09, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
What the hell are you doing? It's Skadar Lake(native name: Skadarsko Jezero). Scutari is Italian name for it, and last time I checked, this was wikipedia in English. If you use google to search for three(or 4, whatever) versions of its name, "Lake Skadar" by far has the most hits... Sideshow Bob22:36, 1 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
Note: I did not move the article to Skadar Lake. This was done by Nikola Smolenski. IMHO the article should be there were we agree it should be. -- User:Docu 04:44, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
There is absolutely no reason why this article should be at anything other than Skadar Lake. That name is much more used ([1]vs[2]) and, in addition, most of the lake is in Montenegro, so Serbian name should be used. The article was created at Skadar Lake; it is initial move to Lake Scutari that is controversial. Nikola05:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
Nikola, you moved the article for the second time (diff.), again without any previous discussion, much less a proper move request (via WP:RM), and in contradiction with the result of the last proper move request (which took place in December 2006, and showed the existance of many reasons to have the article at "Lake Scutari").
I left a note at WP:RM (diff.) to revert this unilateral move. I'm also asking to protect the article from being moved, to force all users to discuss the issue at the article's talk page instead of just moving the article back and forth.
If you think the article should be at any name other than "Lake Scutari", please, follow the proper procedures od a move request (via WP:RM). - Best regards, Ev05:33, 2 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
I was not aware that a move request existed. I'm sorry for that.
But now that I am aware, I don't think that it is a proper request. The article existed at Skadar Lake and was unilaterally moved to Lake Scutari. Then the request to move it back failed. Sorry, it should have been moved to Skadar Lake and request should have be to move it to Lake Scutari. Nikola05:38, 2 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
Nikola, the article was moved back and forth, many times, apparently without much discussion, to Serbo-Croatian, Albanian and other names. The only proper move request so far decided in keeping the article at "Lake Scutari", and with good reasons: it's the name other encyclopedias use, the National Geographic Society, English-language books... in short, it has been clearly demostrated that "Lake Scutari" represents common English usage, and it's the proper title in accordance with our current naming conventions.
I do consider proper procedures important, and thus I do understand your point (i.e. that the article was moved from its original title without going through WP:RM). However, the last -and only- proper move request was more than just a simple formality: it formed a minumum consensus on "Lake Scutari" being the English name of this lake. It represents the current consensus of Wikipedia editors. It has to be challenged with good arguments, and not only by considering it invalid.
Let's move the article back to "Lake Scutari, the name the only proper discussion on the issue so far has decised the use for this article, and then feel free to propose a new name :-) Best regards, Ev05:55, 2 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
The page has been moved back to Lake Scutari (diff.), and I have done some minor edits accordingly, for consistency (diff.).
Now, please, everybody: instead of continuing with these moves, let's discuss here what to do next. Propose a new page move ? If so, from Scutari to Skadar, thus respecting the previous -and only- proper move request of last December ? Or from the original Skadar (diff.) to Scutari, thus making tabula rasa and going back to the situation of July 2006 ? - Ev10:43, 2 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Most of the lake is in Montenegro. How do I know that? Well, I just know how to read maps, it isn't that difficult. No one ever complained about Serbian language being first before User:Noah30 changed it with obvious bad faith. That's why I reverted it, without an intention of entering the edit war this user started insisting on. And another thing: in Montenegro, Serbian language of ijekavian dialect is official, althouth it is probably soon to be changed to Montenegrin, which I declare my native language. But, this is not the place for a debate on that topic. Sideshow Bob17:18, 15 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
Still using a Montenegrin name of the lake in the English page of Wikipedia is incorrect. Writing it in English makes sense and also in Albanian since it’s the lake of Shkodër, located in Albania and not in Montenegro. Jamshqiptarore (talk) 11:04, 25 June 2020 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 14 years ago15 comments10 people in discussion
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Comment While I actually Agree with the rename, I think it's a bad idea to hold this poll during Catholic Christmas holidays because that creates the impression that it's being done while much of the local population isn't going to participate. It would be an act of good faith to postpone or prolong the duration of the poll. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 14:04, 26 December 2009 (UTC)Reply
Disagree - The prominence of Skadar towards Scutari means serbian/montenegrin version versus italian version. They are both wrong because in Albanian it's "Shkoder", and since the same name of Montenegro is an italian version of Crne Gore, that means that the English speaker would rather prefer the italian, rather than the serbian. Besides aren't the Montenegro inhabitants themselves using "Montenegro" as an international version? user:sulmues (talk)--Sulmues 19:32, 28 December 2009 (UTC)Reply
Agree The move to Lake Skadar seems the only rational thing to do. I have seeked this change a few years ago but we could not reach a consensus then, despite the overwhelming evidence in favour of the move. Sideshow Bob10:15, 6 January 2010 (UTC)Reply
Comment - Italians have nothing to do with the lake of Skadar. The name Scutari came from the Albanian town of Shkodra being called that way by Italians that have always had an influence on Albanian culture (as demonstrated greatly by a Gianni Amelio film called "Lamerica" from 1994) and, actually, the Italian version of the name became better known only since the early 20th century. However, the lake is a whole different thing and the remaining historical monuments in or around the lake show clear historical Serbian presence:
Lesendro - a Serbian fortress on a small island in the middle of lake Skadar.
Rijeka Crnojevića - a town founded by Serbs on the side of the lake, near which is the old fortress of Obod, built in 1457. This is where the first Serbian printing press started.
Even the now-Albanian town of Shkodra was once the capital of the Serbian state of Duklja. Again, the fact that Montenegrins, like Albanians, have a contemporary culture greatly influenced by Italians doesn't give argument enough to call a lake, that has nothing to do with Italy, Italians, or the Italian language, in the Italian version of its name. If you want to look as far back as Roman times, it's still not "Scutari", but "Scodra", and nobody really calls it that way. If you look at how this lake is predominantly called in the world, you'll see that it's by it's Slavic name - Skadar. --CinémaC20:19, 28 December 2009 (UTC)Reply
I You intentional misinterpretations of history make me want to cry and laugh at the same time. This lake is a bit out of Serbian borders, so you could try leaving the national disputes out of this. Rijeka Crnojevića was founded by some of my nearest ancestors, so I had to at least comment on such a blatant ignoring of the reality from your side. Cheers. Sideshow Bob10:20, 6 January 2010 (UTC)Reply
Reply Comment How come the world prefers Montenegro for the entire country and rather, for the lake, likes the serbian name "Skadar" rather than the Italian "Scutari"? I really believe that with the Italian version we have something neutral, because if you'll edit-war Lake Skadar, then the Albanians will want Lake Shkoder. Why not the common ground Lake Scutari and everyone is happy? I'm really trying to find common ground here. "Lamerica" was completely uncalled btw, I suggest you watch movies with a positive message, Cinema C, not the loser neosurrealism of Damelio, that was happy to see some sufference to make money. Ah I saw that you mentioned that Shkodra was the capital of Duklja principality. For that matter Shkodra has historically been a capital, even later under the House_of_Balšić rule. Only that the montenegrins have made sure that Balshaj are from the moon or gothic, only Albanians they can't be (which they were). user:sulmues (talk)--Sulmues 17:14, 5 January 2010 (UTC)Reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Latest comment: 3 years ago16 comments9 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. Some editors have observed that "Skadar" is actually the more common name when referring to the lake, especially in recent reliable sources. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe12:37, 17 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
Oppose This appears to be a perennial argument where consensus has come down in favour of Lake Skadar as the most common name.Pipsally (talk) 10:52, 12 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
Move The arguments in the previous discussion are not sound. A more internationally accepted name, one which is found in major encyclopedias as suggested by @Markussep: should be used. Google search index can be heavily biassed towards a particular name which has been used in Wikipedia as an article long enough. Wikipedia is afterall an Encyclopedia. How can its article names be different from all major Encyclopedias? Kj1595 (talk) 20:57, 12 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
That's a rather weird accusation. These 4 sources are well established general encyclopedias and dictionaries, that have also been published in print and rely on large teams of editors. The one that's not mentioned is Collins, but that says "Lake Shkodër". If you can find other similar reliable English language sources, please provide them. I had never heard of Lakepedia before, I don't think that counts as a reliable source. MarkussepTalk06:57, 16 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. English-language books from the last 50 years clearly seem to favor "Skadar" (4150 hits) over "Scutari" (2990 hits). Regarding academic journal publications, the picture is even more in favor of "Skadar": 1420 hits for Skadar, and only 324 hits for "Scutari." "Scutari" is the classical, older form and is mainly used in older sources, as clearly shown in the Google Ngrams data posted by Rreagan. Khirurg (talk) 19:53, 15 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
Support Again, all major, older encyclopedias refer to it as Lake Scutari. Wikipedia naming it differently will no doubt diminish the credibility of the article as a whole. The majority of the links on the books search page are clearly from biased slavic authors as anyone can tell by doing a quick scroll. Kj1595 (talk) 07:34, 16 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
No double voting. You already voted once above. And ranting about "biased slavic authors" is beyond the pale. Strike your comment. Khirurg (talk) 04:58, 17 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Good day fellow Wikipedians,
I have read many comments about the pros and cons about a name change of the Article.
Both sides seem to have reasonable arguments, though after reading more and more comments, I consider the pro-side having more reasonable arguments than the other.
Main points:
- The Lake is called after the city of Shkodra, which lays in Albania.
- The Lake is just a bit less than the half in Albania, so not completly or overwhelming majority wise in Montenegro.
- Native name would considered to be Shkodra Lake (native: Liqeni i Shkodres) due to the overwhelming majority of the population living around the lake being of Albanian origin.
- Lake Scutari is/was in use for most of the time. (From the middle ages until now. (Possibly even earlier))
The only reasonable argument I consider to be against a change of the name "Lake Skadar" is:
- The majority of the lake is located in Montenegro.
- Slightly started to be use more often.
Regarding the points mentioned, I consider the name "Lake Skadar" like some kind of agenda pushing or POV.
Lake Scutari seems to be very reasonable by pleasing both sides. Neutrality should be the point of view of Wikipedia.
Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
A name section should definitely be created. The ancient name Lacus Labeatis, which comes from the Illyrian tribe of Labeates, should be included there. Until the late Middle Ages, both names (everything that has "Shkodra" in the name it's counted as one) were widely used in Latin documents. Bes-ARTTalk09:24, 28 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
Lake name change to Shkodra Lake or Lake of Shkodra
Latest comment: 1 year ago5 comments3 people in discussion
Hello Wikipedians,
The name of the lake was changed to Lake of Shkodra but it was reverted to Skadar lake claiming that the change is unconstructive.
I would like to express my opinion in regards to this by providing facts on why it should called after the Lake of Shkodra or Shkodra Lake in English language.
The Lake of Shkodra is strongly linked throughout history to the city of Shkodër (Shkodra in the definite form), Albanian city that is fully part of Albania, country that uses one official language throughout its territory.
The name Skadar referrs to the city of Shkodër (Shkodra) in Serbo-Croation, Montenegrin and other slavic languages therefore Lake Skadar should be used in the Wikipedia sites of these languages: Serbo-Croatian, Macedonian, Bosnian etc.
Lake Scutari is also incorrect since Scutari referrs to Shkodër (Shkodra) in Italian language.
I strongly support the point of view in which you call internationally the lake after the name in the language of the country where it is located officially and in this case to the city which if fully Albanian and speaks the same language.
As mentioned above, Lake Skadar or Lago di Scutari should be used in the pages of Wikipedia in Serbo-Croatian and Italian (Lago di Scutari).
The conclusion is that in English you don't call the city of Shkodër (Shkodra - Albanian definite form) Skadard but you call it after the Albanian name therefore the name in English should be: Shkodra Lake or Lake of Shkodra.
As mentioned to my reply, I am a new user on Wikipedia and still don't have a full picture on how this works. That being said, don't all the facts brought above justify a change in this article?
This is the English article and the lake is named after a city called Shkodër (Shkodra - definite form) and automatically the lake should take that name and not the city in another language. Moreover, the the city is officially called like that. Skadar is in slavic languages only, not English.
Applying the logic that you call a place after the most influential language, you would call Piazza San Marco in Venice Saint Mark Square, but no. You have it Piazza San Marco in Wikipedia also. Andi Shkambi (talk) 22:56, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
Then you should propose a change, and leave the references and file names alone. And maybe find more (and better) sources. TripAdvisor and somebody's blog probably won't suffice. - Sumanuil. (talk to me)00:16, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 6 months ago6 comments4 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Oppose, why Britannica? Wikipedia follows the WP:COMMONNAME as used by multiple sources. More sources using the proposed aside Britannica is needed. Ngrams shows a clear (recentish/2012+) surge for the current name Lake Skadar. So there is the chance Britannica is the outdated one here (its last edit was in 2011), but nonetheless the argument can hold if more sources using the proposed are found. Please ping if so. DankJae02:08, 7 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The lake is named after the city of Shkoder. Therefore, it makes sense to call it Lake Shkoder. It's like titling the entry on Canada, "Kanada" because that's how it's spelled in German and Albanian. Please don't be unreasonable and stop this racism and colonialism of our toponyms and history. 142.114.118.180 (talk) 03:26, 14 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
Also please don't make edits just to prove a point like you did in [10]. I will remind everyone again that this is a matter of an international border in the Balkan topic area that is under a special regime, and clearly we see people get emotional about it, but that's immaterial to the content of the encyclopedia. Continuing to make disruptive edits that do not adhere to the rules will not result in any sort of positive outcomes. --Joy (talk) 08:52, 14 February 2024 (UTC)Reply