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Hi wikipedians, I hope I'm adding to this talk page correctly. I am editing the Lapita Culture page for my class assignment and have found several holes in it. One it is lacking cited sources in-text, second some of the information from certain sources is misleading so I have re-written a few things for clarification. I have not added them to the page yet, they are still in my Sandbox if you would please check it out it would help me a lot. I would also maybe suggest combining some of the headings such as "dating" and "distribution" which go hand in hand. I am very new to this Wiki thing, so any advice or suggestions would be great. Thanks RomilyC (talk) 19:57, 7 October 2020 (UTC)RomilyCReply
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 17 August 2020 and 3 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): RomilyC. Peer reviewers: Baraganomf, Sumeya333.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignmentbyPrimeBOT (talk) 02:14, 17 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
Of relevance for expanding article: http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2011/12/02/3381368.htm Basically, Lapita wares have been found in mainland New Guinea (and with connections to the Torres Strait Islanders). Cool stuff. Dan Cottrell (talk) 03:10, 12 June 2012 (UTC)Reply
Could User:Peter L. Marsh please give sources for his material about the recent genetic studies? In the meantime I have reverted the article to an earlier version. This might be the Peter Marsh, an Australian writer who believes that Polynesians derive from native American tribes that entered the Pacific from the Alaska area just before the birth of Christ, ie, a supporter of the Heyerdahl theory. Kahuroa 02:39, 15 October 2007 (UTC)Reply
Re: Peter Marsh
See, for example, Polynesian Pathways by Peter Marsh, and the discussion of the Teouma skeletons on the Science Forum at rvgroups.com, referencing (disapprovingly) an article by "an editorial by a journalist who thinks Peter Marsh is an authority". -- Jmc 19:03, 16 October 2007 (UTC)Reply
Response from Peter Marsh; I Agree that I am no linguist, I am only going on a scientific paper which argued the case that Austronesian spoken by Melanesians displayed ancient characteristics which suggested that it was the mother language of Austronesian and they dated it at ~15,000 years. I will try and find this paper which I agree, contradicts many other papers. New Guinea has the most diverse range of languages in the Western Pacific - which clearly hints that there have been many waves of population groups in this area. (Geneticists believe the first wave of Homo sapiens to enter New Guinea were the Pygmies from Africa 100,000 years ago). What we see today are relics of this colourful and complicated history. I would like to point out that the above theory suggesting the Austronesian language came from New Guinea 15,000 years ago concurs with the genetic evidence of Mark Stoneking etal(see http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/page5.htm ) that Polynesians had a Melanesian male ancestor 11,500 years ago but since then evolved quite separately until 1,000 years ago. Geneticists also agree that Polynesians left Taiwan 6,000 years ago (so do the linguists), but did not arrive in the central Pacific until 2,000 years ago where they evolved for ~1,000 years in complete isolation (ie Hawaii) see; http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/GeneticsrewritesPacificprehistory.htm
So Mr Kahuroa, where do you think Polynesians lived for 4,000 years after they left Taiwan 6,000 years ago? Why does the genetic evidence show an absence of contact with Melanesians from 11,500 years ago, until 1,000 years ago? How can you explain that? Why did they not adopt Melanesian ways? Why did they not interbreed? If they did, Polynesians would have frizzy hair - and you know they don't. Why can Hawaiians remember their genealogy back 16,000 years? With the Melanesian "Big Man" society, genealogy is irelevant. Why didn't Polynesians use outriggers? Why did their boats "go about" in the conventional manner instead of shunting like Melanesian outriggers? Why did Melanesians and the Lapita people (as well as the Indian ocean traders) use money cowries for currency wheras Polynesians used mats for currency - the same as the Haida, Kwakuitl and Tlingit of Canada. see; http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/page3.htm All of these questions are answered by my hypothesis - none of them can be answered by the old Lapita/Polynesian theories.See; http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/page6.htm
Native Americans from Haida Gwaii and especially the Tlingit from Prince of Wales Island have the same genes, blood groups, appearance, social system, economic system and carving techniques as the Polynesians. They also share the Polynesian toolkit; Two piece fishhook,trolling lure, harpoon head, whale tooth pendant, reel ornament, tattooing needle, phallic and stirrup stone pestles and war clubs (Patu). see; http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/page3.htm
Neither Melanesian nor Lapita sites have ever uncovered a single item from this list. Only a severely brainwashed or IQ challenged individual would fail to see these connections.
With regard to genetics and the Lapita/Polynesian connection: this is a direct quote from Lisa Matissoo-Smith in her interview on "The Lapita special 3" (can still be viewed in the archives section on TV NZ Tagata Pasifika website July 25th 2005). She said; "We were able to look to see whether the individual possessed a particular mutation that we see at a very high frequency in Polynesians. It is a 9based pair mutation of Mitichondrial DNA and we found that the Teouma material - the first samples that we analysed did not have that mutation, so they did not look like 98% of the people we see living in Polynesia today."
I believe since this interview she has been told to shut up about her findings as two years have passed and no report has been forthcoming.
Have another look at my site and have a good look at the hard facts which are there with references. Go ahead and look for areas of speculation and shoot me down, but in doing so, you will have missed the point. Speculation is a highly necessary part of any research as it opens the door to areas that need more research. Two PHD students have already contacted me thanking me for my site as it gave them an insight into areas of research that had been ignored by the "old school".
May the truth be told.
Peter Marsh www.polynesian-prehistory.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.222.19.35 (talk) 07:20, 17 October 2007 (UTC)Reply
OK I will, but first;
Regarding Polynesian catamarans; The classic Eastern Polynesian sailing craft is a catamaran. Viz Hawaiian voyaging canoes and Tahitian royal canoes. Catamarans were not used by the Maori either. I believe the Tongan and Samoan outrigger voyaging canoe designs were introduced from Fiji, possibly as little as 1,000 years ago. The Western Pacific sailing outrigger is common to both Melanesia and Micronesia. Why not in Hawaii? According to mainstream beliefs Hawaii was one of the last places to be discovered when Polynesian voyaging was at it's peak, Why then was the sailing outrigger unknown in these parts??
Regarding Mark Stoneking in; Melanesian origin of Polynesian Y chromosomes by Manfred Kayser, Silke Brauer, Gunter Weiss, Peter A. Underhill, Lutz Roewer, Wulf Schiefenhövel and Mark Stoneking: Why is this article not a credible scource??? You can easily find it on Google. Quotes on my site have been lifted directly from this article. Your inability to accept this information is because it does not say what you want to hear.
Regarding Caucasian indegenous women; I am not in agreement with Martin Doutre's ideas. His work is inflammatry. There is nothing to suggest a Celtic colony in NZ, but there is lots to suggest a connection to South America - albeit Caucasians (possibly relics from the Bronze Age globalization). There are many stories in New Zealand about various relic populations prior to the Maori. Whether they were castaways from ships voyaging in the Indian Ocean or were from a Caucasian population in Peru (blonde people of Chachapoya - references if you want)we may never know.
Regarding Teouma DNA. I would expect you to try and belittle this information as this too is not in agreement with your fragile hypotheses.
Regarding Polynesian/Austronesian termilology. You are splitting hairs. I do not like the term Austronesian. It is a misnomer - a word that has the potential to mislead. I really should have said proto-Polynesian.
I will ask you again; Where did the proto-Polynesians live with their culture and genes intact for 4,000years? Mainstream science does not have an answer. That is why you don't want to answer this question. Mainstream science in trying to answer this question, has been unable to decide between a slow train or a fast train or an entangled bank. There are no square pegs in round holes with my hypothesis.
Regarding language; Have you ever listened to Melanesian alongside Polynesian? There is a distinct boundary between Tonga and Fiji. There is no gradual blend of language. The most glaring difference is with Fijian - as in Indonesia, Malaysia and the Phillippines they emphasize the R by rolling it off their tongues. Polynesian on the other hand does not even have an R in their alphabet let alone speak it. The only other place on the Pacific rim where R is absent from the language is Japan (very close to the dispersal point of Proto-Polynesians from East Asia).
As far as Austronesian not spoken in America - well there are some relic words in the Mayan language and in the Quechua language of Peru. I would like to remind you that we are talking of a population group that colonized the islands off Alaska and Canada - for 4,000 years. They did not populate the whole of America, therefore they would have been a minority group subject to invasion and assimilation. Language is something that can be lost overnight - unlike genes. (Compare England - first they spoke Gaelic, then Latin, then German, then Danish, then French).
Regarding culture; The Kwakuitl have almost exactly the same social system and used the same tools as the Polynesians. The same cannot be said when comparing Fijians with Hawaiians.
Personally I think it unfair that you have appointed yourself to be the adjudicator on this issue when you have such a biassed opinion.
There is a multitude of evidence which conflicts with your theories. I think it fair that you should allow at least some of these FACTS to be aired.
Peter
Then why do the Japanese have great difficulty in pronouncing R? I believe Hawaii to have the purest form of Polynesian and Hawaiian does NOT have an R in the alphabet. If you are from Rarotonga and Rangiatea (is that Ra'iatea?) then your ancestral homeland would be known as Hawai'i or without the glottal stop Hawaiki. Is that correct? You still did not explain why you cannot take Mark Stonekings work seriously.
Regarding catamarans/outriggers. How do you explain the marked difference in sailing technology (shunting/going about) between Hawaiian catamarans and sailing outriggers of Melanesia? You still havn't answered the question regarding a proto-Polynesian homeland for 4,000 years. If they were the Lapita people living amongst Melanesians for some of these years then why did they not share their toolkit, their socio-political system and their genes??? Micronesia is also ruled out because of divergent genes, Indonesia is ruled out because of the absence of shovel shaped incisors in Polynesia and coastal China is ruled out because Polynesians were unaffected by the massive mongoloid expansion into Taiwan and Japan 5,000 years ago. Whereas coastal Canada has names such as Haida Gwai'i, Tongas strait, Hakai channel, suggesting an Austronesian presence some time in the past. It is common for place names to stick when a new population with a different language moves into an area.
How do you explain the incredible similarity between the poi pounders of Hawaii and Tahiti and the wheat grinders of the Haida, Salish and Kwakuitl? Stone tool manufacture and design are a commonly accepted way of linking cultures in archaeological circles. Why not with the pounders?
Peter —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peter L Marsh (talk • contribs) 20:41, 18 October 2007 (UTC)Reply
I have asked clear and simple questions, yet you are unable to answer them. You do not deserve the position you are in whoever you are. You are sidestepping the issue. By not answering these questions, you are the one who looks like a fool. Talking to me in a condescending manner is insulting. I see it as a poor attempt to mask your incompetence in and inability to properly understand Pacific prehistory. If you understood genetics you would realize there IS a 4,000 year gap between Proto Polynesians leaving Asia and arriving in the Pacific. Stoneking's work may be gobbledook, random and misunderstood material to you, but to him - and me, it paints a very clear picture of Pacific prehistory. Do you really have the right to poo poo the scholars who have used Google to display their work?? Because their work is displayed on Google, does it somehow detract from the FACTS displayed?? If there are simple answers to my other points, then go ahead and answer them! It is you Mr 'long robe' who needs remedial training in observing the differences between Lapita and Polynesian artefacts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peter L Marsh (talk • contribs) 07:10, 19 October 2007 (UTC) Peter —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peter L Marsh (talk • contribs) 06:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC)Reply
I apologise for my outburst. I trust you can understand my frustration in your reluctance to grasp what I am saying.
For your perusal a short summary of information that has led me to firmly believe what I am saying - most of the time.
Genetic origins Recent DNA analysis suggests that Polynesians, including Tongans, Samoans, Niueans, Cook Islanders, Tahitians, Hawaiians, Marquesans and Māori, exhibit a maternal mitochondrial DNA link to indigenous peoples of the New Guinea Highlands 25,000 years ago (Bryan Sykes - Seven Daughters of Eve). The paternal Y chromozome also comes from "New Guinea 11,500 years ago - but since that time they have evolved quite separately from ancestral Melanesians" (see "Melanesian Origin of Polynesian Y Chromosomes" and "Melanesian Origin of Polynesian Y Chromosomes (correction)" cited in References). After this period, proto-Polynesian genes exhibit a 9based pair mtDNA deletion common to East Asians, showing a separation from Taiwanese aborigines 6,000 years ago. (See "Melanesian origins of Polynesian Y chromozome") Polynesian population expansion began in isolation in the Pacific 2,000 years ago (see also Melanesian origin of Y chromozomes).
"One particular DNA haplotype - the human lymphocyte antigen (HLA)Bw48 is commonly found in Polynesian populations, but occurs only sporadically in Melanesia (Polynesian outliers). The only other known population with an appreciable frequency of HLA-Bw48 is that of the North American Indians or more specifically the Tlingit of Alaska. In Polynesia Bw48 co-occurs with A11, - suggesting a variation since Polynesians departed from the Alaskan/Canadian coast." (Susan Serjeantson - Out of Asia - Peopling the Americas and the Pacific Edited by Robert Kirk and Emoke Szathmary 1985). This DNA evidence is supported by cultural and archaeological evidence showing a definite link between Eastern Polynesia and the Tlingit, Kwakuitl and Haida of the islands off Alaska and Canada. This suggests that although there has been some cultural input, including the arrival of plants and animals into Western Polynesia through Melanesia, the main genetic input into Polynesia has been from the north. This strongly suggests that proto-Polynesians voyaged from East Asia to Alaska 6,000 years ago and then entered the Polynesian triangle from the north via Hawai'i 2,000 years ago.
Cultural similarities between coastal Canada and Polynesians is as follows; (From Thor Heyerdahl, American Indians in the Pacific); Rubbing noses as a form of greeting; Formal principles of rank; lineage, and kinship; Use of mats or rugs for money; Fish hook and harpoon design; Tattooing tools and techniques; Tiki design; Protruding tongue motif; Stone pounder design; Use of gourds for containers instead of pottery; Canoe design and building techniques, such as use of hot rocks for steaming hulls open; Earth oven procedure; House design with entrance through totem's legs; Inlaying of shells into carvings; Weaving styles; Stone bowl manufacture and design; The gaping angry mouth motif on the handle of war clubs; The traditional name for the Haida homeland of Queen Charlotte Island is Haida'gwai'i, very similar linguistically to Ha'wai'i (homeland). Names such as Tongass (southern) Strait and Hakai'i Channel appear to also be relic names suggesting an Austronesian past to this area.
Irving Goldman, author of "Ancient Polynesian Society", has this to say on the comparison between Kwakuitl and the Polynesians. "For reasons that remain to be discovered, the Indian tribes of this area [NW Coast] share formal principles of rank, lineage, and kinship with Pacific islanders. The Kwakiutl, seem very close to what I have designated as the "traditional" Polynesian society. They share with Polynesians a status system of graded hereditary ranking of individuals and of lineages; a social class system of chiefs ("nobles"), commoners, and slaves; concepts of primogeniture and seniority of descent lines; a concept of abstract supernatural powers as special attributes of chiefs; and a lineage system that leans toward patriliny, but acknowledges the maternal lines as well. Finally, Kwakiutl and eastern Polynesians, especially, associate ambiguity of lineage membership with "Hawaiian" type kinship, a fully classificatory system that does not distinguish between maternal and paternal sides, or between siblings and cousins."
"The following DNA evidence will help clarify the division between Polynesians, Melanesians and Micronesians.(from; S.W. Serjeantson "The Colonization of the Pacific - A Genetic Trail 1989 pp 135,162-163,166-7) "The following genes set them apart: Polynesians lack HLA-B27 , wheras it is common amongst Melanesians. Polynesians have had little contact with Micronesians. There are only a limited number of similarities in the HLA system. It is clear that Micronesia has had an independent source of HLA genes, probably from the Phillipines, as indicated by the high frequency of HLA-Bw35 which is absent from Melanesian and Polynesian groups. HLA-B13, B18 and B27 are found throughout Melanesia. These antigens are sporadic in Western Polynesia and are essentially absent from the populations of Eastern Polynesia. The few sporadic occurrences are attributable to recent foreign admixture. These antigens are also rarely found in Micronesia. HLA-A11 and B40 are significantly associated with each other in Melanesia, but are not linked in Polynesian Populations.HLA data cannot support the theory of Polynesian evolution within Melanesia.Gene frequency distributions, as well as linkage relationships, clearly place Maoris of New Zealand in the Eastern Polynesian branch, together with Hawaiians and Easter Islanders. The HLA-A-B linkage relationships seen in Hawaiians are present also in Maoris and are consistent with a split in these populations 1,000 years ago."(Susan Serjeantson - Out of Asia - Peopling the Americas and the Pacific Edited by Robert Kirk and Emoke Szathmary 1985).
Peter 124.185.164.21 12:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC)Reply
Furthermore Hawaiian royal genealogies agrre with the above. From ‘The Ancient Hawaiian History of Hookumu Ka Lani & Hookumu Ka Honua', by Solomon L.K. Peleioholani.
"The ancestors of the Hawaiian race came not from the islands the South Pacific – for the immigrants from that direction were late arrivals there. – but from the northern direction (welau lani), that is, from the land of Kalonakikeke, now known as Alaska. According to this tradition, a great flood that occurred during the reign of Kahiko-Luamea on the continent of Ka-Houpo-o-Kane, (Ta'pen Keng is the ancient name for Taiwan) and carried away a floating log of wood named Konikonihia. On this log was a precious human cargo and it came to rest on the land of Kalonakikeke (Alaska). On this log was the first man and woman who came to Kalonakikeke from the continent of Ka-Houpo-o-Kane, they were Kalonakiko-ke ("Mr Alaska") and his wife Hoomoe-a-pule ("Woman of my dreams"). They were said to both be high chiefs of the countries of Kanaka-Hikina (person of the east) and Kanaka-Komohana (person of the west) and were descended from the great great ancestor Huka-ohialaka. ‘Many generations later, Chief Nuu, travelled with his wife, Lilinoe, their three sons and their three wives in a canoe called Ka-Waa-Halau-Alii-O-Ka-Moku (the royal canoe of the continent), and it rested apon Mauna Kea (white mountain), on the island of Hawaii. They were the first Hawaiians." In the Kumuhonua Genealogy (a royal genealogy) of Kauai and Oahu, Chief Nuu is mentioned, including his wife Lilinoe. Nuu would have been born between 225 and 75 B.C. Solomon Peleioholani was a descendant of Chief Nuu through the Kings of Kauai. The Arrival of Chief Nuu between 2225 and 2075 years ago. This agrees fairly well with the genetic information that Polynesians underwent a rapid population expansion, from a small founder population about 2,200 years ago - when Eastern Polynesians (pure blood Polynesians) entered the Pacific.
The proto-Polynesian arrival in Alaska from East Asia 6,000 years ago may well be recorded in this brief legend;
There is an old story that says how some strange people came from the Western Ocean. Among them were two sisters. They landed on Dall Island in Southeastern Alaska. There the sisters met and married men whose people were coming down the rivers from interior North America. One sister-went with her family to Haida-gwaii or the Queen Charlotte Islands. Her children grew and multiplied into the Haida Nation. The other sister went with her family to Prince of Wales Island. She became the ancestress or Mother of the Tlingit Nation. From ‘The Proud Chilkat', by Brendan and Lauri Larson.
Peter —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.185.164.21 (talk) 12:45, 19 October 2007 (UTC)Reply
If recent advances in "Inundation Mapping" are to be believed, a huge area of land was lost in Island SE Asia (Indonesia/Malaysia), in other words the Sunda Shelf, at the end of the last Ice Age (as mentioned in Eden in the East by Stephen Oppenheimer). The last great period of flooding occurred roughly 8000 years ago. Would that have triggered migrations of whoever would have been living there, irrespective of whether or not they were "proto-Austronesians", "Austronesian" or whatever? It is pertinent to remember that the Sunda Shelf did extend in much thinner form as far north as Hainan and Taiwan. best, Sunil060902 (talk) 11:23, 21 May 2008 (UTC)Reply
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I just inserted a new and cited version of the "dating" section of this page. I re-wrote some of the wording for clarification purposes. I also modified dates that I found to be incorrect as well as added citations to every fact and sentence. I hope it all looks good and the information is clear. Thanks RomilyC (talk) 15:02, 23 October 2020 (UTC)RomilyCReply
Hi everybody -- thought I would add here that I also changed the "distribution" section of the article by changing wording due to it being misleading as well as added citations. RomilyC (talk) 15:28, 23 October 2020 (UTC)RomilyCReply
Lapita pottery 203.99.159.205 (talk) 09:09, 10 February 2022 (UTC)Reply
To add to this article: mention of whether Lapita people spread into eastern Australia, as I think some archaeologists have hypothesized was the case. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 16:52, 23 April 2022 (UTC)Reply
I was surprised to have not seen a section about the history of the excavations that lead to these discoveries. So, I added a section with what I basically know and will add citations as I corroborate the history. ~~~~ Fimbriata (talk) 18:55, 8 January 2024 (UTC)Reply