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If vedas is 1700bce or ?4340bce, chinese and Sumerian is 3000bce, Egyptian is 1500bce, Abraham is 2300bce, and Noah is 1760bce, by "somehow" guesswork calcultions, there should be a possibility of truth in 4440bce Sangam age with atleast some probability, as well;
it is the duty of anti-Sangam ?scholars to PROVE THAT SOMETHING ELSE EXISTED IN SOUTH INDIA IN 3-4 MILLENIA BCE, ARE THER ANY SANSKRIT/KANNADA/TELUGU/PALI ARCHAEOLOGICAL INSCRIPTIONS IN SOUTH AT THAT TIME, CAN ANY ONE OF YOU CITE ANY SUCH EVIDENCES AT LEAST IN NORTH INDIA?
envy at Tamil, yu anti-Sangam antiTamil ?scholars; continue to envy ... it still adds up to the pride of Tamil lang -to be envied upon even in 21stcentury
everybody knows only those who cannot bear would still try countering the above facts -in some awkward vague blatant blasphemous way, because...
kutram ulla nenju kuru kurukkum
(B.C. 1465 to B.C. 165)
For over 1300 years and 49 generations, the three ancient tamil kingdoms ruled by three kings and twelve velars, had an agreement of understanding or a treaty of cooperation and strictly abided by the same. The basis of this agreement was based upon the literary creation Tolkappiyam’s Purathinai.
The ancient Hathikumba inscription, its message on the Tamils The great king of Kalinga Karavela tells in his Hathikumba inscription (Elephant cave) “All the tamil kings were bound by an united alliance”, when he had visited these parts of Tamil country during 165 B.C. and states tha this alliance were in force since 1300 years back “ and these kings acted cohesively”. He feels that if this agreement continued to exist, it will be an impending danger even to his empire. It was at this time the Cheraputra Anthuvan defeated the Kongu country king at Karuvur and captures it. As per the existing agreement, the King sows decayed seeds in the fertile paddy fields and ploughs them with asses. However, Karavela induces the Cheraputra King to expand his kingdom by not relieving his captured territory, thereby enticing him to break the treaty which had lived over the ages. As the king Karavela showed a submissive attitude and respect towards the Tamil Kings, he was abundantly gifted by the Pandya King with precious gems and pearls as token of friendship.
The inscription of Hathikumba was fully deciphered by J.P. Jayaswal MA Barister, Patna and Professor R.D. Banerjee, MA Banaras Hindu University. They were of a doubt whether this alliance or agreement of the three ancient tamil kingdoms could have lasted 1300 years. Hence, they manipulated a major fact and based on prejudiced thoughts convinced themselves that the total number of years could not be 1300 years and decided it as 113 years. As I had already earlier clearly deduced and confirmed firmly through evidences from Sangam literature that this period is 1300 years, there would not be a need for further debate on this issue and it is fully evident that the “Agreement among the three ancient tamil Kingdoms” existed as early as 1465 B.C.
Though there are no inscriptions in Tamil Nadu that such agreements existed, it is true that such an agreement existed throughout the Samgam Period. To carryout such a treaty, it is a necessity to have a sort of control document. Hence, to implement such an agreement, these guidelines and rules were framed in into the famous book of Tolkappiyam which is considered a literary and legal bible of the Tamils. This could be found in Purathinai of Tolkappiyam. Just like a legal document, the Purathinai which comprises of the five divisions (Kurinji, Mullai, Marudham, Neidhal and Paalai), contains all the legal guidelines for this agreement. And this should have been done when Tolkappiam was formulated in its early ages. In a similar manner to Purathinai, Agathinai should also have been scripted together with Purathinai and created during its nascent stage.
In the olden age, the rules formed by the Tamil literary books had not been created by any one scholar. Each rule must have been created by one scholar (Pulavar) or by a group of learned men after considerable research. It was then created into an organized structure of rules and regulations. Most of the Rules / Regulations stated in Tolkappiyam ends with “enba” or “Mozhiba”. For example,
“Nunnithinayadhor kandavarae” “Yenmanaar Pulamayoerae” “Enba Unarumoerae” “Enba arichandinoerae”
are some verses of Tolkappiyam.
It can be inferred that these verses have been created and large volumes of regulatory/ legal books of Sangam literature have been created by means of conducting conferences (Tamil Sangam) of Tamil scholars during that age.
This legal document of Tamils, named Tolkappiyam, had evolved through the ages after its original creation by groups of Tamil pundits by suitably amending periodically and regulated as per the prevailing times and finally formed into a final shape as being read now. Both Agathinai and Purathinai were added with further information like “Agreement of Tamil Kingdoms”, and evolved into a biblical book called Tolkaapiyam, which means “to preserve the olden and enlighten it to the people”. Considering the beginning of the era of “Agreement of Three Kings” to be 1465 BC (as confirmed vividly before) this creation of the final issue of Tolkappiyam should be after about 5 years or in 1460 BC. From this day, the culture of the Tamils had been classified as “Agam” and “ Puram” and people had lived by it.
Understanding the core of the Treaty or Accord
1. Rule by Small Grouping: When this was decided, there was only one crown prince of the Pandya King who along with his two brothers divided the country into Chera, Chola and Pandya and ruled the entire kingdom. Later the 12 velirs divided the country into smaller areas and ruled with greater interaction with the common people. Even during ages when good transportation facilities did not exist, there existed such kings who can be called upon any time. This way of rule which existed so long ago in Tamil country has a special reputation on its own.
2. Way of working of these Kings: “Kudi purangathombi kutrangadithal vendhan thozhil” – this means the kings’ duty is to do service to his country men, render justice, carry out punishments for criminals, maintain an army to safeguard the country. He himself undergoes a lot of training regarding warfare.
3. Three countries and the Three Kings: The three kings were praised profusely for their rule. The many velirs in each of these kingdoms were a sort of subordinates to these kings. The geographical contours of these kingdoms were used to create the symbols of these kingdoms and these symbols were minted in their coins. The symbols and flags were individualistic for each of these three kings. Velirs did not have such symbols or flags.
4. Relationships – Friendships and enmity: Among the velirs and kings, relationships were maintained through marriages and this was maintained ancestrally like a rule or a regulation . This can be inferred from Kabilar’s visit along with Paari’s daughters for trying to engage these girls with Velir’s sons (Puram: 200, 201, 202). For any grudge/ disagreements, there were conflicts only among these velirs or kings. These conflicts were only among the 3 kings + 12 velirs and their relations and strictly as per the rules and guidelines of the literary legal books.
5. Capture of Territories: If war was conducted as per Purathinai, even if a king captures several countries, there will be no change in the state of the kingdoms. Only the bravery of the war was looked upon and praised. The books tell about the direct involvement of the kings in the war and their brave deaths. However, the three kingdoms always existed as separate entities and secured as per the common law. For the bravery of the warriors, symbols of bravery called “Ninaivu chinnams” (small buildings) were only created. There were no kings who had thought about inscriptions to show his pomp or pride.
6. The guidelines of the learned scholars: These pulavars sang in praise of the kings and velirs indicating their important achievements, functions and celebrations. It was a common practice that these kings and velirs listened to the advice of Pulavars regarding warfare and acted accordingly.
It was only because of the deceitful king Kalingathu Karavelan that this treaty was broken in 165 BC. In this period, we can find evidences of one ruler capturing another’s territory by Cheraputras and Sathyaputras. Even during this time, the Chola King Killivalavan spared the children of Malayan Kari when he ran away in fear, as advised by the Pulavar “Kovoor Kilaan”. Also the king abandons the Malayan Kari’s kingdom and does not take over it, but leaves the place.
Also, it is evident from the Sangam literature that these kings also participated in creation of Ilakkana Nool or literary books and they themselves were established Pulavars.
7. Division of Wealth: While capturing other kingdoms, the victorious always took over a lot of the loser’s wealth and brought them to his kingdom. However, he did not take it away for himself. It was divided to all the people of his country. It is not like usurping the entire wealth and dividing among a few greedy rich men. There is no such evidence in any of these literatures indicating such events. Also, there is no evidence of kings flaunting their wealth by constructing self enjoyment houses such as operas etc., There were a lot of developmental activity in agricultural, handicrafts in this age. Trade flourished by sea and land by improvement of infrastructures. It was unthinkable in the Tamil Kingdom of such selfish acts like the kings being draped in gold and treasures, and exorbitant expenditure to preserve their dead bodies by building pyramids as in Egypt, which does not serve as an example of an overall developmental culture of a society.
8. The invasion of other nations: It is evident that when a foreign invader threatens any of these Tamil countries, all the 3 kings and 12 velirs joined together to form an alliance. There had been training grounds to fight bravely and effectively in a war. It is clear that even the Maurya king could not invade the Tamil country because of their unity.
9. The long existed Treaty: This accord of understanding created in 1465 BC survived this longest period ever for 1300 years among the Tamil kings and velirs by scrupulously following the Rules and Regulations by all the kings and rulers, which finally faltered in 165 BC by the Kalingathu Karavelan.
Cheraputhra – the law breaker: Unlike the Pandya and Cholas, the cheras were called as “Cheraputras” as evident from Ashoka’s inscriptions and Greek Scholar Ptolemy’s “Periplus” writings.
After the invasion of Aryans, they elevated themselves by means of their habits and created good relations with kings and big merchants. They were helpful to the influential class by helping them in creating contacts with foreign nations, language translations, understanding other languages and telling their meanings etc., Many Aryans also learnt Tamil and became scholars. It is understood that the word “Cheraputra” must have been introduced by the Aryans during Ashoka’s invasion.
A group of descendants of Chera king (Cheraputra) became dominant over a period and captured important positions in trade and governance. It was these bandits who had crept into the Kongu country and captured the big trade center Karuvoor and its allied Chola country. By the wily advice of the Kalingathu Karavelan, these cheraputras had retained the captured country for themselves. These culprits were in hold of the captive regions for about 2 - ½ years.
Chilapathikaram was written by Chera King. In it are the details of the Kongu Komaan (Zamindaar) and Kongu existing as a separate velir country. When this literary creation was being formulated, these cheraputras might have already started dwindling their evil designs and would have returned back to their country.
After the 2 – ½ years, even though the original cheras returned back to power, they were like men without strength. As they had already been in a time gap of about 10 generations, they were unable to establish themselves like their earlier counter parts and failed to created history.
Karuvoor has been depicted as a Trade center only in Karavela’s inscriptions. It is not the capital of Chera King. As per Sirupaanatrupadai (Verses 41 – 50), the capital of Chera king was Vanchi Nagar, situated in kutta naadu.
It is in recent times are being written by numismatists that the capital of Chera king was Karuvoor, which is false, as Karuvoor was in the hands of Cheraputras and Cheras. If Karuvoor is considered a Chera capital, then it is like betraying the present Kerala out of the original Chera country, which cannot be true.
Cheraputras never followed the “common treaty or accord”. Their complete ancestral details are available in the book Pathitrupathu. Lots of treasures were distributed among the Pulavars. As per the accord, since the kingdoms do not belong to them, their coins minted in Kongu desam did not have any sovereign symbols. Slowly the Ways of the Sangam Age degenerated and Sangam Period is believed to have ended in AD 200. The powerful alliances of these Sangam Kings declined and rulers of other nations emerged and new ways of governance began to arise.
Bibliography
1. Tholkappiyam – Porul Adhigaram, 1963, Saiva sidhandha Publishing society, Chennai 18.
2. EPIGRAPHICA INDICA – Vol. XX 1929-30, New Delhi, 1983, No. 7, Hathigumpha Inscription of Kharavela. Authors: K.P. Jayaswal Barrister at Law, Patna and Prof. R. D. Banerji, Banares Hindu University, Publisher: Archeological Survey of India, New Delhi.
3. Thamizhaga Thonmayum Sirappum, Author: M. Kandaswamy, Kumaran Publishers, 3, Muthukrishnan street, Pondy bazaar, Chennai – 17.
4. Purananooru – Vol I and II Commentator: Avvai S. Duraiswamy Pillay. Publishers: Saiva Sidhanta Publishing society, Chennai 18.
5. Cilappadhigaaram
6. Chirupanatrupadai
7. Pathitrupathu
I've just made the above page a redirect to this article. If anyone has the time and expertise, perhaps they could see if any of the material could usefully be incorporated into the Sangam article. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:25, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I have rewritten this article by separating what is known to us scientifically and what is considered as myths and legends. I have also removed the section on the 'Treaty between the Tamil kings' as I couldn't see the relevance of this in this article.
Venu62 05:10, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Hi Mel
There was nothing 'wrong' about the original article. No information is wrong if categorised appropriately. This is supposed to be an article about the Tamil Sangam. I find the major portion of the article to be about the myth of Sangam giving the minutest details about the hypothetical history of the Tamil kingdoms from 1500 B.C.E. There was not one shred of supporting material provided to verify.
The changes I made were simply attempts to make the article more readable and factual. I clearly separated the myth from known facts, highlighting that although the Sangam legend is current among popular Tamil history, there is no scientific or archaeological proof supporting it. I didn't totally omit the legend as found in the original article. I rather attempted to make it more readable.
I also didn't find the relevance of the section detailing the so called 'Life and culture during the Sangam period'.
The definition of Sangam found inthe original article says : The Sangam is a collection of Tamil literature composed between 1,500 and 2,000 years ago. - This is wrong. Sangam does not refer to the collection of literature, it rather refers to the forum in which such literature was discussed. The article itself contradicts this definition further down when it talks about the three Sangams.
The original article has a Copy Edit request. My edits were reviewed by an admin.
So, considering the above, I would like to request you to revert back my edits. I am open to be challenged on factual matters, but I'm afraid this reversal was not due to a dispute of facts.
Venu62 22:05, 15 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Hi Mel
It's been almost a week since you reverted my edits. Have you come to a decision as yet?
Venu62 19:11, 22 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Mel
I think you will agree that I have given you enough time for you to review the article and respond to my query regarding your revert. I spent a lot of time in research and writing in my effort to make this article more useful. Please spend the required time to respond or roll back your revert.
thanks Venu62 05:35, 27 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
The original article had three extenal links, to different parts of the site to whose main page you linked. No problem about the English — the existing article needs a thorough copy-editing too.
Couldn't the point about the historical uncertainty be added to the article without a major re-organisation? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:59, 28 February 2006 (UTC)Reply
Then perhaps you can find me the citation that backs up the claim that "Sangam" was the name of a particular ancient academy? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 08:51, 1 March 2006 (UTC)Reply
The first link is to an article, which doesn't make the claim in question; the second is to a Google result, and none of the sources that I looked at there made the claim either. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:18, 1 March 2006 (UTC)Reply
"...merely based circumstantial evidence and folklore..."
Senthilkumaras (talk) 19:09, 18 April 2014 (UTC)Reply
"The legends that the first Tamil Sangam was initiated by Lord Shiva etc., is false,...."
Senthilkumaras (talk) 19:09, 18 April 2014 (UTC)Reply
If still you all consider Sangam literature contents as just legends, and so not deserve detailed mentions in WIKI, how does Rig Veda and all North Indian myths find a place in WIKI still? or should their PAGE TITLES BE RENAMED AS "THE LEGENDS/MYTHS OF RIG-VEDA/SMRITIS respectively? Senthilkumaras (talk) 18:23, 18 April 2014 (UTC)Reply
The lead into the article reads thus : Sangam refers to ancient gatherings or a school of literary critics founded to foster the Tamil language under the patronage of the Pandiya monarchs of the ancient Tamil country during the early centuries of the common era. Sangam literature is among the the oldest extant Dravidian literature. Written in Tamil, they give a literary account of life in the Chola, Chera and Pandya kingdoms. They deal with a variety of topics like love, war, governance, trade, eloping, bereavement, and mourning. Sangam literature is mostly secular in nature. Though the exact begining of Tamil Sangam has been lost in the early mists of tradition. This loss has been further solidified with the rise of puranic stories in South India which have more or less caused the obliteration of important landmarks in history by giving ordinary events a mythological twist.
Later into the article, the article says that Sangam was merely a legend, but the lead says anything but that. In the lead, it is made to sound like these were historical academies, which is totally false. Let me first put down some facts as I know it.
Based on the above, I will makes some changes to the article, particularly the lead. Sarvagnya 21:44, 20 October 2006 (UTC)Reply
YU CAN VER WELL CLOSE YOUR EYES AGAINST THE SUN, AND SAY IT IS NIGHTSenthilkumaras (talk) 18:50, 18 April 2014 (UTC)Reply
It is high time alien disharmonists and anti-Tamil (so-called) scholars leave Sangam page, now. enough of your legend-lies-propaganda, ignorant geniuses! just mind your own language pages! do not play sabotage here. anti-Tamils donot deserve to be a Tamil stub organiser/administrator/coordinator. hiding and altering facts is a shameless one's act.Senthilkumaras (talk) 18:50, 18 April 2014 (UTC)Reply
In the article under "First Sangam" it says, (a)It lasted 4400 years. (b)it ended in 11000 something BC or BP(whatever). So 15000 BCE is not an exaggeration. Yes probably by 2000 years.. So should I say 13000 BC? Actually 13000 BC if I am right is a conservative figure going by few other accounts of Sangam that I've read elsewhere. Sarvagnya 03:32, 21 October 2006 (UTC)Reply
I think we should remove all mythical references to Sangams, or best mention them properly and unambiguously as myth. The current article recounts mythical Sangam events and dates in simple past tense without giving any clue of its mythological character. This has great danger of misleading the readers totally. Wikipedia must retain its encyclopediac character, and we should as such try to make it so. -- ॐ Kris 07:16, 21 October 2006 (UTC)Reply
I am adding the {{OR}} tag since the claims are unverifiable (not merely unverified). Please discuss here before (and instead of) commencing an edit war here.-- ॐ Kris 07:18, 21 October 2006 (UTC)Reply
Its not factual as far as we know. There is no scope for any known language beyond 5000-6000BC, leave alone a presently used language. The earliest evidence available for existence of Tamil is from rudimentary Tamil inscriptions of Ashokan period (around 300BC or so) in Brahmi script.-- ॐ Kris 19:01, 21 October 2006 (UTC)Reply
The more I read this article the more I can confirm that this article is a hoax. For example this article puts the Tolkappiyam back into the second sangam. The second sangam is supposed to have started in 10000 BC around, and continued for 3700 years. So if we do the math, it means that the Tolkappiyam's date has now been pushed back to around 6300 BC!!!
We all here know from the famous letter that Prof.Hart wrote to someone that, the oldest parts of the Tolkappiyam go back to 200 BC.
So what we have here, is the article pushing Tolkappiyam's date from 200 BC and the first sangam into the second sangam and to 6300 BC. And further, the article goes on to describe dozen works with the author's first and last names which supposedly drew their references from the Tolkappiyam. And Tolkappiyam from what I know translates to 'Old kaappiyam' or old kavya. And I also have been lead to believe that it was a work of grammar. This article however says that it was an authoritative text about law. And it seems these Sangam kings have cooperative treaties based on this law book!!!
If all this is not a hoax, tell me what is?
My suggestion to salvage anything from this article is to blank out the whole article and rewrite. I am in no mood to salvage this hopeless wreck of an article. Unless someone volunteers to do it and starts off with blanking out what is there right now, I will be tagging this article a hoax. Sarvagnya 08:40, 21 October 2006 (UTC)Reply
I have rewritten this article with more than sufficient citations, clearly stating that the Sangam legends are what they are - legends. If the other editors would take more positive attitude towards WP, ie, if they find something not correct, try and fix it with appropriate citations, instead of whinging on the Talk pages and declaring they are not in the mood to work on the article, most of the India related articles in WP would be in much better shape now. Thanks Parthi talk/contribs 03:56, 23 October 2006 (UTC)Reply
(To the writer of this above paragraph): How are you certain that they are ONLY legends? I think the double-standard of what is considered "historical-legend" for non-Abrahamic cultures is quite alarming. Where does it say in the Jesus article that it is in fact ONLY a legend? Try fixing the double-standard before trying to prove that you "know" something. ;) - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.209.60 (talk • contribs)
It seems that some kannadian knows better abou Tamil than Tamils[user:arun1paladin|arun1paladin]
It's my opinion that users who dont play spoilsport can much better help WP by keeping quiet on subjects they know zilch about. This is also an important need-- ॐ Kris ( talk | contribs) 23:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)Reply
]
Not only that, some total morons are there, who's only intention is to troll on pages which others create painstakingly and show their wikipedia skills to damage content. These need to be kicked out, many of them are in their 40s and above (physical age). Mentally underdeveloped with least decorum to boot.-- ॐ Kris ( talk | contribs) 00:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)Reply
Tamil Changams are not myths but facts.Since the date of the Changams is not exactly denoted one cannot claim that Changams didn't exist befor 200B.C.Tamil literatures have clearly mentioned that earlier Changams got demolished due to KADARKOLE[Sea Calamities].They could have mentioned tsunami's by that word Kadarkole.And everybody knows that Tsunami is common in Tamil Nadu[[User:arun1paladinArun1paladin (talk) 07:15, 30 November 2007 (UTC)]]Reply
VEDAS ARE THE BEST HOAX FOR ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES BY THE BELOW SEEN CRITERIA OF THE ANTI-SANGAM ?SCHOLARS
SANGAMS ARE BETTER CHRONICLES THAN OLD TESTAMENT/VEDAS/ALL SMRITIS.
like all these there is confusion about the period, that doesnot mean you all should mock at all these ancient works. SHAME ON YOU ALL. IT IS AS WORSE AS MOCKING VEDAS/OLD TESTAMENT CONTENTS.
Unfortunately the page is flooded with apparently antiTamil emoted flare-ups by obviously anti-Tamil !scholars!
these people obviously couldnot digest any thoughts of Tamil as an ancient culture. without knowing even a pinch of Tamil they try their hand as scribes on Tamil literature and history. it would be well and ENOUGH if they SINCERELY portray true picture of their own mothertongue/languages.
i just donot know how many of these ?scholars here can read Tamil flawless and how many have read Sangam literature --not just the names/pronunciation in English transliteration. are these nonTamils qualified to write a page on Sangam literature, how far;
ACTUALLY THIS TALK PAGE LOOKS LIKE A BUNCH OF ALIENS IN A DISTANT GALAXY, DISCUSSING AND CALLING ENCYCLOPAEDIA BRITTANICA AS A FANTASY WORK AND A HOAX.
THE MAIN DIFFERENCE WHICH PUTS SANGAM ABOVE ALL LITERATURE IS THAT IT SINCERELY PORTRAYS LIVES OF KINGS, CONFLICTS, LOVERS, MASSES, AND THEIR DEITIES. NOT A WHOLESOME RELIGIOUS TEXTS, OR MYTHS, OR PURANAS.
Senthilkumaras (talk) 17:07, 18 April 2014 (UTC) An earlier version used 'History of south India' by Chopra et al, to claim that sangams are a hoax; on reading the book itself (http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=4eRx-d821rYC&dq=history+of+south+india+chopra&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=qJH6C0YNlf&sig=lchCsoinWUCQ4ATY9O5oxHKSE1k#PPA32,M1) it is clear that the authors are not so clear on the issue. They deny the existence of the mythological landmass, presence of gods in the sangams and other such stuff, but allow the possibility of sangams having existed. I have made an edit to reflect this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Corecirculator (talk • contribs) 04:43, 22 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
I've rewritten the lede and the first section, basically just correcting a few statements which weren't quite right and reorganising the material a bit. There's a lot of material that could be added, but I think I'll wait to see what sort of expansion Sarvagnya's planning, so there's no needless duplication of effort. -- Arvind (talk) 17:33, 26 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
(unindent)"The Tamil Sangams are legendary assemblies of Tamil scholars and poets that, according to traditional Tamil accounts, existed in the remote past. The legends describe three assemblies, the first two of which were held in cities since "taken by the sea", and the third of which was held in Madurai and created the earliest extant works of Tamil literature. Whilst the legendary accounts are generally rejected as being ahistorical,..." -- fine so far. maybe just replace "remote" with "hoary" or something similar.. but fine.
"...many modern scholars believe that they are based on actual historical assemblies..." -- Not exactly. Zvelebil does not "believe" that they were based on actual historical assemblies. He is quite circumspect and only 'hazards a guess'(so to speak) that they (the legends) may have had their roots in actual historical Sangams.(TSoM, pp 47-49) Zvelebil only refers to the Sangam of Vajranandi etc., in passing. Hart is even less circumspect and and dismisses as "unlikely" that the Sangam legends were based on any historical Sangams.(Hart, 1975) And then of course, many dismiss the whole thing as fiction as Chopra says. So it would be inaccurate to describe that many scholars "believe..". "Speculate" or "surmise" or something even less categorical would be better.
Also, the Sangam legend as such isn't really based on Nakkirar's account. -- Not sure I agree completely. For now, I'll just say that the 'kernel' of the legend is certainly traceable to the IA/Nakkirar. Whether there are/were fragmentary descriptions of the same legend in earlier/later works, and how and when, if at all, connections were made between those legends and the one in IA is certainly encyclopedic and feel free to add all the info you can find about that.
for example, Kumari Kandam so dear to the nationalist picture of the Sangams isn't there, -- Kumari Kandam is important, but it wouldnt exist outside the context of the Sangam legends even in the scheme of Tamil nationalist ideologies. As far as Tamil nationalism is concerned, the Sangam academy legends have always been the 'mother of all legends'. Sarvagnya 21:02, 30 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
The following professor is a proponent of this view and belives that current Tamil society has not fully realized or acknowledged these efforts. He has number of academic publications that deal with this subject matter. The contacts are
ALVAPPILLAI VELUPPILLAI Faculty Associate,Department of Religious Studies, ASU-P.O. Box 873104, Tempe, AZ, 85287-3104 Dept: 480-965-7145; Fax: 480-965-5139;E-mail: alvappillai.veluppillai@asu.edu; Website: http://www.asu.edu/clas/religious_studies/ (Dept. page) Taprobanus (talk) 22:02, 28 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
Original Article: One thousand three hundred years of Mooventhar Kotpadu:
While editing the original article the concern person has changed the head lines from "One thousand three hundred years of Mooventhar Kotpadu" to "One thousand three hundred years of Sangam Period", Probably due to his pre-conceived thoughts. Nowhere in the article "Sangam period" is mentioned.
This article derives antiquity of Tamil Kingdoms in a different way through the Hathigumpha inscription and the ancient most grammer of Tamil, the Tolkappiyam.
Mooventhar Kotpadu: (Treaty for the continuous co-existence of the three tamil kings)
1) karavelas' inscription mentions about the "confederacy of the T(r)amira (Dramira) countries of One Thousand Three Hundred years.
2) Tolkappiyam says about "Moover Thanpozil". i.e, the Tamil country belongs to three. Being a grammer book this statement must be true.
3) Tolkappiyam also derives a theory for the continuous coexsistence of the three kings through its chapters Agathinaiiyal and purathinai iyal. (Pl refer book of this author Tolkappiyam - an ihistorical perspective" available through Gwowra Agencies, 10/14 thoppu Venkatachalam Street, Tthiruvallikeni, Chennai9 600 005.)
4) Thus without any changes in the status of the three kingdoms, continous coexistence was maintained as per the confederacy of the Tamil Kings (3 venthors and 12 velirs). Mooventhar Kotapadu is a term assigned by this author for this statusquo.
5) Karavela the King of Kalinga when he called upon tamil Kingdoms during his itinarary by BC 165 has gathered the news about this confederacy from "Anthuvan" at the Karuvur Market Town and inscribed the same in the artificial cave built as shelter for elephants near Bhubaneswar. The three kings integrity agreement (Mooventhar Kotpadu) has been maintained for 1300 years before his arrival on BC 165.
Hence, this Mooventhar Kotpadu has been existence from BC 1465. The controlling element for preserving this Kotpadu alive for a continuously long period is through "Purathinai Iyal" of Tholkappiyam. So, the Tholkappiyam might have been written around BC 1460 as it is inferred from the said inscript. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.248.24.165 (talk) 10:46, 13 October 2009 (UTC)Reply
The author of the above last edit done on 13 Oct 2009 is Mr M Kandaswamy, Numismatist cum history research scholar and a Retired Senior Manager from BHEL, Trichy, India. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.248.24.165 (talk) 06:18, 19 October 2009 (UTC)Reply
This is serious false info:
Jain cosmology and mythology are mentioned in early Sangam works,[27]
27. Purananuru poem 175
Purananuru 175 is a historical crisis event - laying of highways by Mauryans colse to ancient Tamilagam border.
Not about any Jaina mythology. False citation need to be removed.
This again highlights the need to write Tamil pages by people who can atleast read in Tamil, who can understand classical Tamil, and also because of sheer facts that not only north indians , but also nonTamil dravidians are IGNORANT and also HATE to talk about ancient Tamil culture and literature just BLINDLY DISMISSING any facts and Sangam concepts.
Infact Purananuru poem 229 is regarding Tamil Astronomy and a king's death on a visible comet's arrival, in detail with relative interstellar coordinates, dated to exact quarter of the then constellation on the sky -corroborated Chinese document of Halley's comet exists.
Senthilkumaras (talk) 12:33, 24 April 2014 (UTC)Reply
WITH DUE RESPECT, Prof.Hart's article is not an updated one as per archaeological finds in Tamil Nadu.
http://hindu.com/2005/02/17/stories/2005021704471300.htm
http://asi.nic.in/asi_exec_adichchanallur.asp
He still mentions Asoka period as ?first adaptation of Braahmi into Tamil writings, from that source he estimates the Sangha period as 1st c-3rd c ad. But the above link gives 500-1500bce period local war hero's burial pot contents with an advanced Brahmi-Tamil script use.
The citation for a possible Jain sangha is cited with 3 Jyoti Prasad lain, The Jain Sources of the History of Ancient India (Delhi, 1964) pp. 160-161.
The credibility of this source and its evidence is not known.
Hart's FABRIcation-idea is his ORIGINAL guess/fabrication, not even an ORIGINAL RESEARCH. He clearly does not give any citations at all. so one can cite some nonnative scholar's original presumptions and guesses in Wiki;interesting.
Unclear and unconvincing views without evidence proper need to be removed. Or just mention the fact as "Prof Hart thinks so"
Anyhow I have updated your Hart ref in Wiki:TamilSanghams page also.
Hart contradicts many of KA Neelakanda Shastri's presumptions regarding Sanskrit/Prakrit influence in early Tamil literature. He clearly proves early Tamil literature period was before the direct adaptations and arrival of North Indian/Aryan/Prakrit concepts into mainstream Tamil Nadu,; that is clearly several centuries before the so-called Jaina Sangha;
also he himself says TirumurikaaRRuppaTai, one of the ten poems of the PattuppaaTTu, which is later than most of the poems of the anthologies, contains only two percent Sanskritic words, even when such words as miin, taamarai, and muttu, which are now known to be of Dravidian origin, are counted as Sanskritic.9 A survey of the Mahaabhaarata would, I believe, show a much higher percentage of Dravidian words.
Why cannot we mention this point of his -an ORIGINAL RESEARCH, not a guess like above fabrication point.