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Latest comment: 13 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Resolved
– Question answered.
What are the R. Tam sessions?---Mr. Tachyon
Some clips of River being interviewed by a psychologist-type person while at the Academy. Contains at least one movie reference (but not really a spoiler). --Pentasyllabic05:54, 4 January 2006 (UTC)Reply
More specifically, they are 4 short clips Joss Whedon (who plays the psychologist himself) released on the Web, and which have been re-released in better resolution on the DVD, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray releases of Serenity. — SMcCandlishTalk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀContribs.10:16, 24 September 2010 (UTC)Reply
Though there should be a spoiler warning, and spoiler consolidation, rather then give out what river ends up doing part way, and at the end of the movie.--x1987x03:16, 9 October 2005 (UTC)Reply
What about when River tells Jayne that "Also, I can kill you with my mind." I forgot which episode it happens in, but it's the one where Simon confronts Jayne about his betrayal. Doesn't that hint to something that's not mentioned in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lamarcus (talk • contribs) 00:45, 7 January 2006
I added a reference to the comment, and I'm glad that I'm not the only person to think that it was more an attack on Jayne's fears than a real threat. --Pentasyllabic03:07, 7 January 2006 (UTC)Reply
This and everything else in the article have been deleted, and the article redirected to a very short summary at List of Firefly characters, mostly because of original research like this. As WP editors, we are not in a position to surmise and make suppositions about whether or not something was serious or what some fictional character's intent may have been. — SMcCandlishTalk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀContribs.10:16, 24 September 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion
Resolved
– Obvious original research; the pilot claim has been deleted along with everything else.
There seems to be a bit of debate about whether or not River is the pilot of Serenity. While, yes, she did appear to be piloting the ship at the end of Serenity, she only got it airborne; Mal continued to be at the helm. I think her Occupation should remain none/Fugitive (until another Firefly movie/TV show/comic shows her definitively as the pilot), especially since her replacing Wash is a bit of a spoiler. EVula23:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago5 comments4 people in discussion
Resolved
– Two thirds of this isn't even legit continuity problems, and the other point can be handled with a footnote; novelization isn't canonical.
The novelisation by Keith R.A. DeCandido seems to imply that River was 14 when she heard about the Academy (page 22). Also, the book seems to call The Academy, the "Alliance Academy". Furthermore, instead of "a coded message" it has her write a series of messages. Is the book considered canoical?--Joshtek22:58, 8 May 2006 (UTC)Reply
Yeah, I guess so. I just read this interview with Joss Whedon: "I don't have much involvement. I just don't have time. If I started to read them I'd just get frustrated and have to write them myself. This would cause fewer movies and shows. I just whistle and look the other way. Hope ya like 'em!" --Joshtek00:34, 9 May 2006 (UTC)Reply
Depends on who you ask. The novelization was official. But it conflicts in a few places with other materials, most of it straight from Whedon's head. The simplest way out of a WP:NOR and WP:NPOV problem here is to just give the facts as they are: The book says this, and whatever else says that. See Battlestar Wiki - they use this approach, and consider the TV shows, the books and the comics and so on to all be separate if related continuities. No one seems to have an issue with it. (Also, in response to specifics raise: If the dates don't agree, go with the date given in the show, since Whedon wrote it, and books are prone to typos. Use a footnote to mention that the book differs; even the TV show indicated more than one message, in the scenes of Simon arguing with his parents about the issue, so there is not conflict on that point; "the Academy" is obviously simply natural shorthand, just like Americans say "Congress" not "the United States Congress" and "the national anthem" not "the American national anthem", so again no conflict). — SMcCandlishTalk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀContribs.10:16, 24 September 2010 (UTC)Reply
Continuity issue with River's rescue from the Academy
Latest comment: 13 years ago13 comments7 people in discussion
Resolved
– Inserting opinions about this, or anything about it at all w/o reliable sources, violates various WP policies, especially WP:V, WP:NOR & WP:NPOV, plus numerous guidelines.
River's rescue from The Academy by her brother Simon is described in sixty words in the Firefly episode "Serenity" and several scenes in the movie Serenity. There is considerable debate over whether or not the two presentations represent a breach of continuity.
In the episode "Serenity" Simon responds to the question of how he rescued River by saying:
Money. And, and luck. For two years, I couldn't get near her. Then I was contacted by some men, some underground movement. They-they said that she was in danger, that-that the government was... playing with her brain. If I funded them they could sneak her out in cryo. Get her to Persephone, and from there, I could take her... wherever.
From this it was assumed that he had no part in the physical rescue and indeed did not meet up with River until she was in a cryo box on Persephone.
However, when the movie came out audiences witnessed Simon breaking River out himself with the help of an unidentified ship. In the movie it is also stated that Simon "spent his entire fortune developing the contacts to infiltrate" The Academy and Simon refers to the others involved in the rescue as, "the people who helped me break River out."
Um, no. From that you assumed that he had no part in the physical rescue. Nothing canonical actually states that. I.e., see the differences between wikt:infer and wikt:imply. The two versions are not actually mutually exclusive, and can easily be reconciled (I won't bother doing that here, since that would itself be original research and it's just not helpful. — SMcCandlishTalk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀContribs.10:16, 24 September 2010 (UTC)Reply
There are three different ways that this has been interpreted.
The first interpretation is that the two do not reconcile in any way, thus the series and the movie are in different continuities. This means that the River of the movie was broken out by Simon with the help of others, whereas the River of the series was broken out by "some men."
The second interpretation is that Simon, who at the time had only the vaguest notion of the crews loyalties and personalities, did not want to be honest with the crew of Serenity and therefore told them an altered version of the breakout, minimizing his own role so as to leave the crew ignorant of his actions.
The final interpretation is that both versions are correct; everything Simon told the crew of Serenity was true, but what he implied and what fans assumed (that he had no role in getting her out apart from financial support) was false. In this interpretation the "underground movement" broke River out by using not just Simon's money, but also Simon himself and then, once out of the facility, snuck her, in cryo, off of whatever world she was on, past customs and all other prying eyes, and finally to Persephone where Simon and River first appeared in the series.
Supporters of each interpretation have evidence that they claim backs up their way of looking at it, and thus far none of the interpretations have be universally accepted as correct, further the second and third interpretations are so similar it can be hard to tell them apart. Joss Whedon is reported to have said he supports the idea that Simon was lying, but whether he meant by falsehood (second interpretation alone) or omission (second and third interpretation) is unknown, this statement has not silenced those who claim there is a breach of continuity.
It is possible that this part of River's history will never be agreed upon.
I'm re-adding, because this is a point of contention that needs to be addressed, it's not "unnecessary info" JBK40501:31, 1 July 2006 (UTC)Reply
It doesn't make any sense to describe her rescue if there's no agreement on what her rescue actually was, putting in one section describing her rescue as a certain way implies that there's some degree of certainty. JBK40500:11, 2 July 2006 (UTC)Reply
If it is based directly off what is seen in both the series and film, which are considered equally canonical. I'm restoring my edits for this reason. Although there may be a controversy, the series and film say otherwise. The Wookieepedian00:16, 2 July 2006 (UTC)Reply
And Joss Whedon says otherwise too. He gives his explanation, which we should treat as canon. Speculation and Original Research does not belong in Wikipedia plange00:29, 2 July 2006 (UTC)Reply
in fact that section being in there, and unsourced, is one of the main reasons I put the unsourced box at the top plange00:32, 2 July 2006 (UTC)Reply
An unsourced tag is not a license to include original research or fan speculation that is not likely to have any reliable source. Statements like "fans assumed" and "Joss Whedon is reported to have said" make it clear this material comes from fan discussions. If this issue is discussed in a major publication (say, Entertainment magazine) or in one of the published books about Firefly, it is fair game. Otherwise, it's exactly the kind of fancruft Wikipedia tries hard to weed out. Firefly is one of my favorite TV shows, but this is Wikipedia, not FireflyWiki.org. I've removed everything from that section that isn't directly attributable to what's on the screen. (And I'm still not happy with the way it's presented, as without published statements, it's hard to even call this a possible conflict, especially given the possibility of the "there is no error" interpretation.) ~ Jeff Q(talk)05:42, 2 July 2006 (UTC)Reply
I think we're saying the same thing Jeff, my reply to Wookie was in support of him - Since the speculation was unsourced I put the tag up there, NOT to give it a pass, but to alert a reader that there was POV stuff in the article and giving the writer a chance to source it since I didn't have time to edit it myself. If I had my druthers, I'd take out the controversy altogether, since we don't have a source and it's OR.-plange05:46, 2 July 2006 (UTC)Reply
Utter fancruft - the section should go unless, as is said above we have a RS, source for the "controversy". Sophia08:22, 2 July 2006 (UTC)Reply
Is there a "controversy" every time a character lies in a piece of fiction? Pure speculation, delete it. Barnas11:09, 2 July 2006 (UTC)Reply
What Barnas said. And JBK405, your "three interpretations" theory and its rambling, if well-thought-out, details up there is all personal theorizing with no citationtoany reliable sources that there even is any actual debate about this (among anyone but encyclopedically-irrelevant fanwankers, like the kid in Galaxy Quest who served as a lampoon of all con-going, obsessive mega-nerds). I.e., this is just your own homegrown pet theory, which you are rather too enthusiastically pushing. There is no reason whatsoever to put any of this stuff in the article, and the presence of what-if and in-my-opinion material like it is why this article got blanked and redirected. Reconciling the two versions of the story is trivial, without having to go into any supposition about Simon lying, or whatever. Per Ockham's razor, the third of the three interpretations is obviously the correct one (as the other two require all sorts of unsupported hypothesizing and contorted reasoning) and it is so obvious that it need never be commented upon in Wikipedia. Doing so in this article (should it be restored) is not only begging for trolls and disputes, it does not help the reader, and violates WP policy, as already cited. We are emphatically not in a position to offer any opinion on this. We should not even mention at all (per WP:UNDUE and several other concerns) this alleged "dispute" unless there is compelling, reliable evidence that the dispute is real and is major. We simply don't have any proof of that. — SMcCandlishTalk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀContribs.10:16, 24 September 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Resolved
– WP does not permit original research, so such speculation must be deleted.
I question the statement that R.T. was created as a weapon against Reavers. While she fights a group of Reavers effectively in the film, it's hard for me to imagine that a single operative, however talented, would be a weapon of choice against a group of 30,000 or so well armed, highly aggressive individuals. This sound more like a job for the military.
R.T.'s talents seem more useful for covert operations involving espionage and assassination - purposes suggested by some of the lines from Book and Zoe in the Firelfy episode "Objects in Space."
Questions for others -
Should this article contain any speculation as to the possible uses that her handlers had for River?
If so, is there support for the current "Reaver" theory, or should a "Covert Ops" theory be substituted?
This article cannot contain any speculation at all, per clear WP policies cited many times above, especially WP:Verifiability, WP:No original research and WP:Neutral point of view. Even incautious citing of external sources that offer an opinion about something like this topic can violate one or more of these policies. If it's not clearly stated in the fiction itself, or by an very reliable real-world source (e.g. Joss Whedon interview, director's commentary, etc.), it must not be in an article like this here. — SMcCandlishTalk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀContribs.10:16, 24 September 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 13 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Resolved
– WP does not permit original research, so such speculation must be deleted.
Why does the article make such distinct separations between River's being intellectually and physiologically gifted? That and her inituition are all parts of her extreme intelligence; bodily-kinetic and intrapersonal intelligence and so on.
Latest comment: 13 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Unresolved
– Better source not located yet; check the 3 Whedon-authorized books, for starters.
Can we find a better source for the bit about the translation of the Russian code phrase from the 'Serenity' film? The IMDB in of itself is not considered a valid source for trivia.--MythicFox11:22, 10 September 2007 (UTC)Reply
No kidding. I'd like a reliable source that it's even Russian. Didn't sound like it to me. Then again, half the Chinese in the show has badly mangled pronunciation (I love River's over-done "R" in her psycho-rant outside on Miranda, in a language with no "R". :-) — SMcCandlishTalk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀContribs.10:16, 24 September 2010 (UTC)Reply
It's been deleted and redirected, for now, but this is a perfectly legitimate complain that must be resolved by those who would put back a real article here. It does need to exist, as River is arguably the real main character, not Mal, even though he's the crew leader and has more screen time. — SMcCandlishTalk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀContribs.10:16, 24 September 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 11 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion
One of the reasons this and the other character pages became redirects is because the content was mostly WP:OR and WP:PLOT. I'm glad to see some details along production and reception. However, the Major Themes and Character Biography sections remain dubious generalizations and inferences -- in fact, it looks like they come straight from the same poor content from a couple of years ago. I invite the restoring editor to working not just toward beefing up the the real-life material (which may now help the subject stand up to GNG scrutiny) but also on paring down the unencyclopedic in-universe material. --EEMIV (talk) 13:25, 5 May 2013 (UTC)Reply
The Major Themes section was cited entirely to episodes. This is a perfect example of original research: making interpretive statements about a subject based on the primary source. Interpretation requires citation to third-party commentary, completely bereft from that section. I've axed it. Rather than restoring poor content from years before, interested editors can instead start anew on that material. --EEMIV (talk) 13:29, 5 May 2013 (UTC)Reply
I'll probably see what I can put together. Also, I'm going to replace the image with one of the promotional ones from Fox. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol16:58, 5 May 2013 (UTC)Reply
Thank you for the assistance. I had been attempting to format it as closely as possible to the directions given on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Firefly page, but that is a bit excessively in-universe now that I think about it. And yeah, the episode citations were cop-outs. Sorry about that. Update: Did some beefing up on the "Reception" section. Now includes a few more references to articles and novel excerpts mentioning the character. --Rnnlmb (talk) 19:02, 5 May 2013 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
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