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Regarding File:Vietconginterrogation1967.jpg, the Commons description states that it is a US government work taken by a US soldier. NARA categorizes this image as "Photographs of American Military Activities".[1] Unless there is evidence that it is depicts ARVN rather than US forces, I think the caption should remain. (t · c) buidhe 23:42, 5 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Buidhe: can I just commend what a great job you did on this article? Basically every sentence is sourced reliably and it is excellently written. I honestly think this is the perfect article. 750h+ 13:25, 11 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Buidhe: Agreed. This article is legendary. You're legendary. Words cannot do it justice so I shall not even attempt it. ❧ LunaEatsTuna (talk), proudly editing since 2018 (and just editing since 2017) – posted at
There are a wide range of images of torture available from a wide range of times and places. Why is an image of US abuse in the Vietnam War the top image? In this portion of the article, an image is somewhat decorative, and there is another image of US abuse in that war lower in the article already, so I would argue that since torture has been rather widespread it is fair to use an image from a different time and place, because as it is currently, the images are particularly US-centric. Victor Grigas (talk) 00:49, 26 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
Gee I guess taking a picture of medieval torture implements is out of the picture? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 57.140.28.33 (talk) 14:58, 26 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Buidhe: I didn't think about this until now: "Torture is the deliberate infliction of severe pain or suffering", isn't "severe" subjective and perhaps in some instances simply not the case? How is it worded in sources? Wretchskull (talk) 10:09, 26 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
"Torturers more commonly act out of fear or due to limited resources than sadism." With no citation? Where is this information from, how do we know this is true ? Also grammatically a bit iffy Pinkdoveradish (talk) 10:11, 26 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Normanhunter2 You removed most from: Torture was legally and morally acceptable in [most] ancient, medieval, and early modern societies. I'd say that now it implies all, and I wonder if some folks might contest that if not be personally offended. Personally, I don't know which is more factual, but seems like a rather big meaning change considering you are rewording sentences to achieve the same meaning. Can you provide justification for this change?
In general, such wiggle words are an awkward topic in WP. As an editor I often wonder whether I should choose: most, some, commonly, typically or the like. In this case, since it's such a sensitive subject, this seems a relatively important choice.
WRT In many cases, a combination of dispositional and situational effects [lead] makes a person [to become] a torturer IMO the becoming aspect is critical to the meaning and that makes does not imply the becoming aspect. Well, maybe it does a little, but IMO not strongly/clearly enough. I think as-is, it reads as the effects result in a person being classified as a torturer.
WRT Torturers forget [important] essential investigative skills. Doesn't achieve the same meaning. Not saying it's wrong, but it's not what you said you were doing.
WRT adding thetoUnited States–backed regimes I know you should include the with US, but it reads awkwardly now. The the is ambiguous and therefore confusing since could go with US or regimes. And if goes with regimes, then further awkward since implies there's a specific set of regimes, but there is no specific set either in the article or in common lingo. Suggest clarify by changing to regimes backed by the United States".
WRT Cultural and individual differences affect how different [torture methods are perceived by the victim] the victim perceives torture methods is not grammatically correct. Maybe you meant: ...how different victims perceive...
WRT Fictional portrayals of torture as an effective interrogational method [have] has fueled misconceptions should use have since the noun is portrayals; not method. of torture as an effective interrogational method is an adjectival phrase. Maybe the phrase is overly long and needs re-wording.
I think your changes are well intentioned and for the most part result in better content. I plan to address these issues but wanted to let you take a whack at them first if you want. If I do it, I will fix the grammatical errors, but I don't have the domain knowledge to change/revert the first (most) issue.
What piqued my interest in your changes is that your comments say minor fixes, rewording sentences to achieve the same meaning, but that is misleading since you did change meaning. I'm fine with changing meaning, but I do think we should be honest/accurate in the change comments. Stevebroshar (talk) 17:14, 26 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
The modern images (say from the last 100 years) depicts one artwork, one poster, one use of tear gas ("sometimes considered a form of torture"), one person recovering in bed, and three photos of American torture. While none of these photos are out of place, collectively they put an emphasis on US torture which don't reflect the text, giving the impression that torture is a predominantly American thing. That's probably not our intention? /Julle (talk) 00:19, 27 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
DMH223344, I would be keen to know if there are any general sources about torture that back this up—Finkelstein is making a strong claim, but he is not an expert on the use of torture around the world. Although I think this is probably UNDUE, I'm not opposed to mentioning it briefly (probably in the prohibition section) if we can find better sources. (t · c) buidhe 03:26, 27 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
A secret appendix specified exactly what was permissible, making it a document unique in the annals of modern Western judicial history.
AI notes once again, as other major human rights organizations regularly have, that Israel is alone in having “effectively legalized the use of torture” (with Supreme Court approval), determining that in pursuit of Israel’s perceived security needs “all international rules of conduct could be broken.”DMH223344 (talk) 04:54, 27 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
"...making it the only judiciary in the world to have done so."which is only a claim about Israel's status as the only country to legalize torture *at the time*--I don't claim that it is the only one to have done so since then. Is there still an issue with using AI and Btselem sources from 2000/1999/1998 then? DMH223344 (talk) 02:29, 28 June 2024 (UTC)Reply
In 1987, Israel became the only country in the world where torture was considered legal.Note: was considered legal because the international prohibition of torture also applies in the country even if it isn't recognized by Israeli institutions. (t · c) buidhe 05:57, 28 June 2024 (UTC)Reply