Talk:Western Turkic Khaganate

Merge with Onogurs?--Joostik (talk) 18:49, 14 July 2009 (UTC)Reply

• Support. Although pre-dating the Gokturks, the Onogur "Ten Tribe" confederation was essentially the Polity of the Western Turkic Khaghanate. People have confused Utigur Old Great Bolgary with Onogur because Utigurs were established under the authority of the Onogur Polity of the Western Turkic Khaganate towards the end of its time. Merge Western Turkic Khaghanate into section on the Onogur page. Kaz 10:32, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
• Support. They seem to be covering the same ground, and this one does a better job. "Onogur" or "Onoghur" does sound more natural in English, though. Anyone not mind taking the time to googlefu (web/books/scholar) for a little bit and see what the WP:ENGLISH WP:COMMONNAME is? — LlywelynII 06:43, 2 October 2011 (UTC)Reply
  • From the Avars page,

    In his History of the World, Theophylact Simocatta noted that the Göktürks "enslaved the Ohgur tribe, which was one of the most powerful...and was accomplished in the art of war."

    which would suggest that these tribes weren't the Onogurs, but invaders who conquered them. What a mess. — LlywelynII 07:23, 2 October 2011 (UTC)Reply

Object. Onogurs existed long before the Turkic Kaganate, and long after the Turkic Kaganate, as a matter of fact their entry into the sphere of the Turkic Kaganate was a short passing episode in their history, for much longer periods they were in the Western Hunnic state, de-facto independent, brief stint under the Turkic Kaganate, independent in Great Bulgaria, then with Khazar Kaganate for 400 years, back to post-Khazar Bulgaria for 200 years, and then into the Juchi Ulus/Kipchak Khanate. They also outlived the European Kangar/Bajanak state (150 years), N.Pontic Oguz state, and N.Pontic Kipchak state (200 years). Neither one of the listed political entities can absorb their history for more than a small fraction of their history, and they have a rich history interacting with each one.

A note to User talk:LlywelynII - Ogur is as much a collective name for numerous tribes as Oguz is, Ogurs and Oguzes were not mutually friendly, quite the opposite, and Onogurs are just a branch of the Ogur group of tribes. Turkic Kaganate (with Kipchak/Oguz rulers) imposed their rule on some Ogur tribes, but most of them were either independent, or submitted to (Ogur) Avars (so called Kutigurs/Kutrigurs etc.). Bombastic Simocatta does not care for details, for him Onogurs are just generic Ogurs, but the historical outline is fairly well known. Barefact (talk) 08:58, 10 October 2011 (UTC)Reply

Merge from Utigurs? Same as above. Utigur is apparently one source's name for the Onogurs, so that article should come over here as well, unless for some reason it is the English commonname for these guys. — LlywelynII 06:43, 2 October 2011 (UTC)Reply

See above for problems. — LlywelynII 07:24, 2 October 2011 (UTC)Reply

Object. See above comment for Onogurs. Utigurs is a western rendition of the Turkic term Utragurs/Ortagurs (Orta is Horde, Center, Middle), which means Center Wing (lit. Center Tribe), they were Onogurs branched into administratively separate division of the Western Hunnic state, which made them politicaly distinct, with their own role and history. Like Onogurs, they should be mentioned with Western Huns, they were their center, and probably with all successive polities where sources provide details, but their entire history can't be covered by any one of them. Barefact (talk) 09:21, 10 October 2011 (UTC)Reply

Object Utigur were established under Sandilh in Maeotia under the authority of the Onogur polity of the Western Turkic Khaghanate but since it developed into the Utigur state of Old Great Bulgary it seems that they were independent enough from the Onogurs to not be considered as one in the same. Utigur could however be merged into a section on Onogur page. Kaz 10:37, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

This article should be merged into Oghuz Turks as it seems to cover a fraction of the same history that is already present in Wikipedia. One reason for distance is conflicting terminology. Even if merger is rejected, the terminology certainly needs to be cleaned up and be consistent. The reason for previous merge suggestions came up is because much of the information is poorly distributed among a number of overlapping, disorganized articles. Major clean up of the whole project is required. Alex.deWitte (talk) 23:17, 10 May 2012 (UTC)Reply

Object, although I do see some valid basis to your suggestion.Kaz 12:33, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Agree your suggestion grew on me :) 62.255.75.224 (talk) 23:36, 2 August 2012 (UTC)Reply

Object: Oghuz Turks as a political power emerged much later than Western Turkic Khaganate . Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 18:10, 10 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

According to Denis Sinor, the view that the Battle of Talas ended China's Central Asian presence is incorrect, it was after the battle that China shot itself in the foot by interfering with the Turkic Khaganate's affairs and ended China and their Turkic allies presence in the region.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ST6TRNuWmHsC&pg=PA344&dq=Indeed,+the+Talas+battle+in+75+1+in+which+the+Muslims+aided+by+the+Turkic+Karluks+stopped+the+Chinese+and+their+Turkic+allies+was+not,+as+Gibb+noted+,'+the+deathblow+to+Chinese+imperial+traditions+in+Western+Central+Asia.+Rather,+it+was+China's+meddling+in+the+murky+politics+of+the+Western+Turk+Kaghanate,+a+policy+that+contributed+to+the+latter's+destruction+and+thereby+removed+the+only+serious+opposition+the+Muslims+faced.+The+Arabs,+however,+did+not+seek+to+establish+themselves+deep+in+the+steppe.+Instead,+they+retired+to+the+ribats+(border+forts),+oasis+city-states+and+rich,+urban+trappings+of+the+Khorasanian+towns.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8mFkU8zyJ67jsASwjYGQCQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Indeed%2C%20the%20Talas%20battle%20in%2075%201%20in%20which%20the%20Muslims%20aided%20by%20the%20Turkic%20Karluks%20stopped%20the%20Chinese%20and%20their%20Turkic%20allies%20was%20not%2C%20as%20Gibb%20noted%20%2C'%20the%20deathblow%20to%20Chinese%20imperial%20traditions%20in%20Western%20Central%20Asia.%20Rather%2C%20it%20was%20China's%20meddling%20in%20the%20murky%20politics%20of%20the%20Western%20Turk%20Kaghanate%2C%20a%20policy%20that%20contributed%20to%20the%20latter's%20destruction%20and%20thereby%20removed%20the%20only%20serious%20opposition%20the%20Muslims%20faced.%20The%20Arabs%2C%20however%2C%20did%20not%20seek%20to%20establish%20themselves%20deep%20in%20the%20steppe.%20Instead%2C%20they%20retired%20to%20the%20ribats%20(border%20forts)%2C%20oasis%20city-states%20and%20rich%2C%20urban%20trappings%20of%20the%20Khorasanian%20towns.&f=false

http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Cambridge_History_of_Early_Inner_Asi.html?id=ST6TRNuWmHsC

Rajmaan (talk) 03:47, 3 May 2014 (UTC)Reply

I've found this 2019 Hayrettin Erkoç's article, which I deem useful in Wiki articles about Turkic peoples & Turcology. Can somebody fluent in Turkish incorporate info from it into relevant wikipedia's Turcological articles? Erminwin (talk) 02:03, 21 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

Should these be at Wikisource? I think they are important and also rather long and excessively detailed for Wikipedia. Elinruby (talk) 04:22, 21 June 2021 (UTC)Reply