If you wish to discuss or inform me of a sensitive or private matter please read User:Callanecc/Emailnotice before emailing me.
If I left you a message: please answer on your talk page, as I am watching it. If it was a warning or other notice please ping me so I know to look.
If you leave me a message: I will answer on this talk page, so please add it to your watchlist.
This user talk page might be watched by friendly talk page stalkers which means that someone other than me might reply to your query. Their input is welcome and their help with messages is appreciated.
Latest comment: 2 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Hey Callanec. A while back you imposed this sanction on me [1]. It’s been almost a year and a half. I was wondering you’d be willing to vacate it. I know I can appeal it via WP:AE but the first step - and your instruction in the sanction notice - state to ask the imposing admin directly. So I’m asking.
There was an instance early on, right after the sanction was initially imposed, where I was accused of violating it (more than a year ago). I tried to follow the instructions and struck/removed etc. and no violation was found. Pretty much since then (more than a year) I have not run into any problems with it nor has anyone accused or implied I have violated it. Admittedly, I don’t see the sanction as particularly onerous or unfair (in some sense it reflects “best practice” in editing and discussing) and I intend to keep following it regardless as it’s just good advice, but I don’t really want it hanging over my head. Let me know if you’re willing to consider it. Thanks. Volunteer Marek 20:23, 5 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 11 hours ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Hey! I'm sorry I forgot to inform you earlier. You've protected Maine 8-ish years ago, and I was wondering if you'd like to unprotect it. I posted on RFPP without consulting you first, I regret my mistake. Josethewikier (talk) 03:18, 5 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 15 hours ago6 comments3 people in discussion
Please remove the protection. If you want to help block the disruptive editors, please do, but indef full protection an article does nothing to help stop disruption and is itself purely disruptive to the editing process. Levivich (talk) 10:36, 11 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
My intent isn't for it to be indef full protection but I can't put a time-limited protection on it without the article automatically reverting to unprotection. The intent is that it's for around a week (if that much is required) to force discussion and a consensus. If after a week when it goes back to ECP there is still edit warring individual or other page-level sanctions can be used. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:37, 11 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
What do you mean by "force" discussion and a consensus exactly? There is already discussion happening on the talk page, and no edit warring in almost a week. (Not every revert is an edit war.) There is also already consensus, at least about some things--a product of the lengthy discussions on the talk page. (Also, one cannot "force" a consensus.) All the full protection is going to do is put a hard stop on the discussion and consensus building until the protection is lifted. Levivich (talk) 11:45, 11 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
You can't edit war if you can't edit the page, the only way to get your preferred version is through discussion to build consensus. This is what full protection is regularly used to do in multi-party edit wars. I can't see how protecting a page where there is an ongoing multi-party edit war could put a hard stop on discussion. It only allows editors to discuss, come to a consensus and request a change. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 15:09, 11 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
Years ago I wrote this joke, it's about this exact situation:
There are three groups of participating editors: (1) those who are not edit warring and are discussing -- they're fine, we don't have to worry about them; (2) those who are edit warring and are discussing -- they're already discussing; (3) those who are edit warring and not discussing -- three checkuser blocked so far, and the rest, we don't want them (or most of them) to join the discussion. I can't speak for other editors, but I'm not going to try and gain consensus with a vandal, or a POV pusher, or a UPE, or someone with an undisclosed COI, or various other types of bad-faith actors.
Full protection, for a limited time, works when good faith editors are edit warring and not discussing, in order to get them over to the talk page. That is not the case here, as can be seen from the talk page, which has been full of discussion alongside the edit warring, which itself isn't really edit warring so much as vandalism and blatant POV pushing by a small group of editors (some of them now checkuser blocked) being reverted by other editors (and not by another group, but by a wide variety of other editors). This problem is not limited to the Zionism article, it is limited to a small group of editors, and thus it is not the kind of disruption that can be cured by page-level sanctions.
As to why indefinite full protection would put a hard stop to discussion and consensus building until the protection is lifted, for the same reason that the Wikipedian in my joke is not going to try and come to consensus with the vandal about whether or not a raft should be built. Levivich (talk) 16:48, 11 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
So based your three types of editors in this case, it will stop group 2 from edit warring which is its purpose. It will provide a platform the article to reach a consensus-driven stable version without the distractions of revert warring happening. It will also prevent group 3 from edit warring. The time provided for a consensus-driven stable version (through consensus then edit request) to emerge will support other page-level restrictions (such as consensus required or enforced BRD if we go that path) and also apply editor restrictions to those who are (more clearly) editing against the consensus version. I'm not suggesting you need to gain consensus with editors who are editing against the purpose of the project but the full protection means they can't edit the article against consensus while that is being firmed up and allows time for AE requests to be filed without the constant editing taking attention away from discussion. Again it's indefinite only due to the technical limitation. Callanecc (alt) (talk) 02:18, 12 July 2024 (UTC)Reply