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RfC on the use of Tifinagh in Morocco-related articles
Latest comment: 2 months ago20 comments8 people in discussion
Should Tifinagh transcriptions be included in articles relating to Morocco following the proposal set forth in the WikiProject's previous talk page discussion? NAADAAN (talk) 16:15, 5 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
The verifiability and accuracy of Tifinagh texts are questionable due to the absence of Tifinagh dictionaries or credible sources providing correct spellings or translations. All of the sources presented above are primary sources and unreliable sources. Although Berber is an official language in Algeria and Morocco, the Algerian constitution (available in Arabic and French) indicates that efforts are ongoing to develop Tamazight to ultimately lead to its adoption as an official language in the future, implying that there is still work that needs to be done.
Furthermore, I'd like to draw attention to this RfC that took place on Talk:Algeria concerning the inclusion of Berber language text. The consensus was against using Tifinagh text.
I frankly don't understand why you bring up Algeria, the Algerian constiution, or Kabyle when this is exclusively focused on Morocco, Standard Moroccan Tamazight (SMT) is standardized by IRCAM and is largely intelligible between Tamazight, Tachelhit, and Tarifit. The RfC on the Algeria article was on the basis that Tamazight recognition wasn't codified in Algerian legislature. Any implication made by Algerian legislators on the state of Tamazight is irrelevant to Morocco and has no effect on this conversation.
In Morocco, Article 5 of the constiution puts SMT in an equal pedestal as Arabic as "common heritage of all Moroccans with no exception". In accordance with the constiution, the use of SMT has been codified into law under organic law 26-16, Royal decree 1-19-121 with specification that it be used with Tifinagh. A royal decree also sets forth the use of Tifinagh. I set forth a proposal in the previous conversation to obtain an accurate Tifinagh spelling of places, words, and people; I don't see how WP:PRIMARYNOTBAD doesn't apply in this case, and in the case of Maghreb Arabe-Presse, any percieved bias would not affect the accuracy of spelling. There are inconsistent and disputes in spellings in English for Boucraa, Laayoune, Es-smara, and Benguerir; as a matter of fact -- the French article for Agadir lists a myriad of spellings in Arabic. Need there be a new conversation? NAADAAN (talk) 17:52, 5 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
I think the confusion may stem from what you proposed in the discussion: For Algeria, replace the IRCAM with the HCA and Maghreb Arabe-Presse with Algerie Presse Service. M.Bitton (talk) 17:57, 5 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
Fair enough, I assumed that Algeria had a similar legal framework as Morocco since I had noticed the existence of the HCA and a Tamazight service ran by the APS; I stand corrected after doing more research, since the relevant laws don't really mention specifics about standardization and the Algerian governement hasn't chosen which alphabet to use as of 2017. NAADAAN (talk) 18:08, 5 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
If you believe Algeria's situation is not relevant here, then what prompted your suggestion to use HCA and Algerie Presse Service for Algerian articles? Like Morocco, Algeria also faces problems with standardizing and codifying Berber, making Algeria's context relevant here. Since you find Kabyle irrelevant, let's instead focus on Chakrane, where the Berber name is in Tarifit, in contrast to Agadir where Tashelhit is used. Speaking of standardization, all three Berber languages are used in Moroccan primary school textbooks in practice, but primarily Tashelhit (which drew criticism from northern and eastern Berber speakers who felt marginalized). WP:PRIMARYNOTBAD doesn't apply in your case per WP:PRIMARY criterion 3, as Tifinagh lacks verifiability. Moreover, the sources you provided do not meet the standards set in WP:PRIMARYNOTBAD, as they are certainly not "authoritative, high-quality, accurate, fact-checked, expert-approved, subject to editorial control". Skitash (talk) 18:34, 5 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
Because I wasn't aware of the previous RfC, I clearly explained my stance in my past message. I addressed the concerns raised in the Algerian RfC and demonstrated why it wouldn't be an issue in this case. Per my proposal, a source can be found that shows that the Commune of Chakrane uses the transcription "ⵛⴰⵇⵔⴰⵏ"; case closed. Also, proper nouns wouldn't change based on dialect of Tamazight so I don't know why this needs to be discussed. Furthermore, this wouldn't explain the subsequent content removal in Morocco even though an official translation of the constitution was sourced. I would like to know your explaination on how the official site for the Agadir city commune isn't "authoritative" and how the MAP isn't "subject to editorial control". Do other languages that encounter pedagogic "challenges" lack verifiability by your standards? NAADAAN (talk) 20:18, 5 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
I am uncertain about the ruling on whether or not images can be interpreted and cited as sources. However, I have not been able to find any mention of『ⵛⴰⵇⵔⴰⵏ』in any websites or articles on Google. Furthermore, your assertion that "proper nouns wouldn't change based on dialect of Tamazight" lacks substantiation. Contrary evidence exists: Algiers is known as "Lezzayer" in Kabyle according to Kabyle Wikipedia, while it is referred to as "Dzayr" in Tashelhit according to Tashelhit Wikipedia. Different names can also be observed in the Tashelhit and Kabyle Wikipedia articles for Tangier. Like I said, the Agadir city commune website seems like a promotional website, making it more suitable for inclusion as an external link at the end of the article, rather than being cited as a source. I didn't claim that the MAP source you provided lacks "editorial control". My concern is that it's entirely written in Tifinagh script, rendering it incomprehensible and inaccessible to readers and editors. Skitash (talk) 23:39, 5 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
I think the fact that Chakrane is a village of 6,000 people could explain why it's underrepresented in search results, even in French. Either way, WP:OBSCURE. About the Agadir city commune site, even if it was promotional -- which I doubt, it looks more like an eGov portal, saying that Agadir is written as『ⴰⴳⴰⴷⵉⵔ』isn't exactly WP:ECREE.
Focusing on Morocco: the Tamazight article says Dzayr (ⴷⵣⴰⵢⵔ), it's Dzayr in Tachelhit Wikipedia, and it's Dzayer in Tarifit Wikipedia. There are number of people who edit Tamazight Wikipedia, correct? Would they not be able to verify the names on the English Wikipedia? A lot of them are members of this exact WikiProject on English Wikipedia and if this is such an impossible task that it requires content removal then it defeats the point of even having a Tamazight Wikipedia. Furthermore, if you are concerned about it being "entirely written" in Tifinagh, I can concede to adding an ALA-LC romanization like with Aziz Akhannouch. NAADAAN (talk) 03:03, 6 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
Comment: Just because a language doesn't have a standardized spelling doesn't mean it should be given less prominence than it otherwise would be given, and neither should languages with standardized spelling be specially priviliged. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 18:41, 5 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'm rather indifferent... While @Skitash brings good points, they seem somewhat biased to me. I say that, if we are to include Tifinagh transcription, it should be present in a way that is sensitive to the previously discussed topics. There is definitely a lack of standardization, but, as @IOHANNVSVERVS mentions, this shouldn't merit special privileges, to an extent. All in all, I think the information could be important to host, however, we should be cautious in how. For example, including notes or warnings next to said transcriptions. What I want to consider most here is its notability. — Urro[talk][edits] ⋮ 22:21, 6 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
I think that notability is proven at the given moment that at least a quarter of the population speaks a dialect of Tamazight, that the Moroccan constitution recognizes Tamazight as a language equal to Arabic, that an institution was charged with standardizing Tamazight, as well as there being an entire legal framework around the use of Tamazight in government with Tifinagh being the script used in Government.
Sure, there are challenges you can observe from a language that began being standardized just over twenty years ago -- but I have never seen this be an argument for omission, there are languages in much more dire places when it comes to educational challenges or lack of standardization that's still included on Wikipedia. My proposal remains the same (include the Tifinagh inscriptions used by local governments for places, and employers or news reports for people as they are the most authoritative); but I deplore the fact that I haven't gotten in-depth criticism of my proposal despite the ongoing conversation. NAADAAN (talk) 04:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
Comment: As I previously said ([1]), I think relevance (or notability) is easy enough to establish here for many cases (e.g. for place names). I do feel, however, that to ensure competent transcriptions (and to avoid arbitrary back and forth changes) under the present circumstances, some form of verifiability is needed.
So I wonder if other editors could also comment more directly on the verifiability concerns? Do we need citations to sources to verify Tifinagh transcriptions? If so, what kind of sources are acceptable? Thanks, R Prazeres (talk) 16:47, 9 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support: If a language is spoken somewhere by an indigenous population, their names for these places should be included. As for the points made by @Skitash:
Transcriptions of Arabic Abjad also lack standardization, there are several different transcription standards that are being used in Wikipedia and in almost all cases, the official name does not abide by these standards. Accordingly, this argument doesn't hold any merit for this case. Popular transcriptions are mostly a simplified approximation and do not follow scientific transcription standards
Skittish? Furthermore, there are a number of WP:RS Tifinagh transcriptions; if it was truly an impossible task, a Tamazight Wikipedia as we know it would not exist... I'd like for you to elaborate further NAADAAN (talk) 02:05, 26 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 month ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Starting this July, we will see a new contest on the scene - the Developing Countries WikiContest (WP:DCWC)! Think of it as a WikiCup but only for articles and media on developing countries.
Competitors may submit GAs, GTs, FAs, FTs, FLs, FPs, and DYK and ITN entries from/on developing countries to gain points and proceed to further rounds. Points are also awarded to those who review GAs, FAs and FLs.
Morocco is listed as a developing country for the purposes of this contest, so articles related to it are eligible to be submitted for points. I encourage everyone here to sign up and compete with editors from around the world to create high-quality content!
