m clean up, replaced: WPMA → WikiProject Middle Ages using AWB
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m Maintain {{WPBS}} and vital articles: 7 WikiProject templates. Merge {{VA}} into {{WPBS}}. Keep majority rating "B" in {{WPBS}}. Remove 6 same ratings as {{WPBS}} in {{WikiProject Biography}}, {{WikiProject Berbers}}, {{WikiProject Aviation}}, {{WikiProject History of Science}}, {{WikiProject Watches}}, {{WikiProject Spain}}. Keep 1 different rating in {{WikiProject Middle Ages}}.
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==Clear-up== |
==Clear-up== |
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I reverted a bit of heavy editing, with great trepidation; without a doubt, the article needs a heavy edit, and many problem aspects were addressed- but without, I think, a needed degree of discretion.--[[User:Mavigogun|Mavigogun]] ([[User talk:Mavigogun|talk]]) 10:21, 3 July 2009 (UTC) |
I reverted a bit of heavy editing, with great trepidation; without a doubt, the article needs a heavy edit, and many problem aspects were addressed- but without, I think, a needed degree of discretion.--[[User:Mavigogun|Mavigogun]] ([[User talk:Mavigogun|talk]]) 10:21, 3 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:Fair enough. I did not expect that all my editing would be outright accepted, but as the article now stands I think we agree it is a mess. The main problems lie in the pseudo-objective representation of facts and references: |
:Fair enough. I did not expect that all my editing would be outright accepted, but as the article now stands I think we agree it is a mess. The main problems lie in the pseudo-objective representation of facts and references: |
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::I add below a verbatim quotation. [[User:Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) 08:40, 5 July 2009 (UTC) |
::I add below a verbatim quotation. [[User:Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) 08:40, 5 July 2009 (UTC) |
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⚫ | After the closing of [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Armen Firman]] it seemed the best move was to merge Firman's article here and make it clear that there is substantial doubt as to whether he was actually a separate individual at all. I've gone ahead and edited the content and merged it here. [[User:Beeblebrox|Beeblebrox]] ([[User talk:Beeblebrox|talk]]) 08:24, 14 July 2009 (UTC) |
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⚫ | :I concur. I worked out why there is reason to doubt the existence of Armen Firman (a strong [[argument from silence]] based on several scholarly works). [[User:Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) 13:35, 14 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::The AF section reads like a conclusion- a personal summation of the editor's estimation. With minor rewording, it could serve the same end without the semblance of OR.[[User:Mavigogun|Mavigogun]] ([[User talk:Mavigogun|talk]]) 21:29, 14 July 2009 (UTC) |
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⚫ | :::I can't find any OR, it is merely an attempt to explain an argument from silence in a logical manner to the reader. But go ahead. [[User:Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) 02:08, 15 July 2009 (UTC) |
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== Misuse of sources == |
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This article has been edited by a user who is known to have misused sources to unduly promote certain views (see [[WP:Jagged 85 cleanup]]). Examination of the sources used by this editor often reveals that the sources have been selectively interpreted or blatantly misrepresented, going beyond any reasonable interpretation of the authors' intent. |
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Diffs for each edit made by Jagged 85 are listed at [[WT:Requests for comment/Jagged 85/Cleanup4|Cleanup4]]. It may be easier to view the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abbas_Ibn_Firnas&limit=5000&action=history full history] of the article. |
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A script has been used to generate the following summary. Each item is a diff showing the result of several consecutive edits to the article by Jagged 85, in chronological order. |
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* [[:Abbas Ibn Firnas]]: {{diff|Abbas Ibn Firnas|90075275|87789067|[1]}}{{diff|Abbas Ibn Firnas|145365228|143764112|[2]}}{{diff|Abbas Ibn Firnas|151946462|151201864|[3]}}{{diff|Abbas Ibn Firnas|164673038|161881331|[4]}}{{diff|Abbas Ibn Firnas|165589754|164830629|[5]}}{{diff|Abbas Ibn Firnas|177788330|172879995|[6]}}{{diff|Abbas Ibn Firnas|193736591|191741453|[7]}}{{diff|Abbas Ibn Firnas|213601248|211354149|[8]}}{{diff|Abbas Ibn Firnas|222012791|221935693|[9]}}{{diff|Abbas Ibn Firnas|222337664|222093230|[10]}}{{diff|Abbas Ibn Firnas|222468432|222398855|[11]}}{{diff|Abbas Ibn Firnas|230077236|222469510|[12]}}{{diff|Abbas Ibn Firnas|309568324|303393562|[13]}}{{diff|Abbas Ibn Firnas|345398701|342809842|[14]}}{{diff|Abbas Ibn Firnas|349810269|348807802|[15]}} |
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[[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 11:31, 3 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:Checked diffs. I know the article has long been attended to by at least one attentive editor, so any chance of encountering any remaining big Jaggedisms was rather slim. However, I remove [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abbas_Ibn_Firnas&diff=309568324&oldid=303393562 one claim inserted by Jagged] which corresponds to [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Jagged 85#Cause of concern|Cause of concern no. 3]] and three further ones lacking any source which I could not substantiate. Please feel free to restore these claims whe you've found sufficient evidence for them to be true. ''For more background information, please see '''[[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Jagged 85|RFC/U]]''' and '''[[Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Jagged 85/Cleanup|Cleanup]]'''''. [[User:Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) 21:23, 3 May 2011 (UTC) |
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==Strange== |
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I have tried to remove OR from the section on Amen Firmin. Would help if I had sight of the sources. I am not sure if we can call him an aviator, any more than we can call Elmer one. All the best, ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]] [[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', <small>06:18, 7 April 2014 (UTC).</small><br /> |
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==Arab or Berber?== |
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In the first line, the text says that Ibn Firnas was "Arab-Muslim", offering two sources. I contest both: first, they are not scientific literature but just popular web resources with no known authorship and second, non of them says actually that Ibn Firnas was personally "Arab-Muslim", although of course he was part of the wider Arab-Muslim civilization, which is not contested and should be clear by the "Umayyad" context. Later in the text it is said again that he was of Arab descent, which needs a source, but none is given (I doubt that a generic mention in a popular US Radio show qualifies as source). I've replaced the wording by a cautelous "sometimes be said of Berber descent", with a link to a Moroccan print media, which does not give any details either but at least has a undubious wording of the claim as such. I foresee debates about this point, thanks for explaining your position. [[User:Ilyacadiz|Ilyacadiz]] ([[User talk:Ilyacadiz|talk]]) 15:38, 4 February 2015 (UTC) |
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== Infobox image == |
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I removed it per this discussion: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Doug_Weller/Archive_43#Abbas_ibn_Firnas]. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 16:17, 2 January 2017 (UTC) |
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== Remove redundant content== |
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I removed some content from a set of recent edits that repeated most of the article, with a few changes. These cnaged not only introduced a slew of redundant content but also intoduced several dozen referencing errors. I've reverted them, since that seems like the easiest fix. -- [[User:Mikeblas|Mikeblas]] ([[User talk:Mikeblas|talk]]) 00:39, 30 May 2020 (UTC) |
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:Thanks for pointing that out and fixed it. It was a mobile edit, therefore that massive error occurred and couldn't notice. Regards.[[Special:Contributions/83.137.6.246|83.137.6.246]] ([[User talk:83.137.6.246|talk]]) 13:01, 30 May 2020 (UTC) |
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== The original source on Abbas Ibn Firnas' supposed flight attempt == |
== The original source on Abbas Ibn Firnas' supposed flight attempt == |
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What is the evidence that there is only one sorce for Abas's attempt ? . iread another text writen by『 ابن سعيد』[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Said_al-Maghribi Ibn Saied] (1213–1286) in Arabic he mentioned the flying attempt . I think if someone search more , he will get more sources . [[User:محمد الباحوث|محمد الباحوث]] ([[User talk:محمد الباحوث|talk]]) 05:40, 19 November 2012 (UTC) |
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<br /> |
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There is one and only one account of the event - by the 17th century Moroccan author [[Ahmed Mohammed al-Maqqari]], reproduced in ''[[Lynn White|White, Lynn]] (1961), "Eilmer of Malmesbury, an Eleventh Century Aviator: A Case Study of Technological Innovation, Its Context and Tradition", Technology and Culture 2 (2): 97–111 (100f.)'': |
There is one and only one account of the event - by the 17th century Moroccan author [[Ahmed Mohammed al-Maqqari]], reproduced in ''[[Lynn White|White, Lynn]] (1961), "Eilmer of Malmesbury, an Eleventh Century Aviator: A Case Study of Technological Innovation, Its Context and Tradition", Technology and Culture 2 (2): 97–111 (100f.)'': |
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::::::There are several accounts of "pioneers" who covered their body with feathers, as it was commonly believed in various cultures around the world that the feathers would vest a man with the ability to fly. [[User:BatteryIncluded|BatteryIncluded]] ([[User talk:BatteryIncluded|talk]]) 20:16, 14 July 2009 (UTC) |
::::::There are several accounts of "pioneers" who covered their body with feathers, as it was commonly believed in various cultures around the world that the feathers would vest a man with the ability to fly. [[User:BatteryIncluded|BatteryIncluded]] ([[User talk:BatteryIncluded|talk]]) 20:16, 14 July 2009 (UTC) |
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[[User:Doug Weller]] Hi. So how do we solve this? [[Special:Contributions/81.133.43.161|81.133.43.161]] ([[User talk:81.133.43.161|talk]]) 13:54, 21 June 2020 (UTC) |
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⚫ | After the closing of [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Armen Firman]] it seemed the best move was to merge Firman's article here and make it clear that there is substantial doubt as to whether he was actually a separate individual at all. I've gone ahead and edited the content and merged it here. [[User:Beeblebrox|Beeblebrox]] ([[User talk:Beeblebrox|talk]]) 08:24, 14 July 2009 (UTC) |
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⚫ | :I concur. I worked out why there is reason to doubt the existence of Armen Firman (a strong [[argument from silence]] based on several scholarly works). [[User:Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) 13:35, 14 July 2009 (UTC) |
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[[User:Doug Weller]] nothing is mentioned about the glider in the article despite plenty of sources. Where is the issue? [[Special:Contributions/81.133.43.161|81.133.43.161]] ([[User talk:81.133.43.161|talk]]) 20:19, 21 June 2020 (UTC) |
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⚫ | :::I can't find any OR, it is merely an attempt to explain an argument from silence in a logical manner to the reader. But go ahead. [[User:Gun Powder Ma|Gun Powder Ma]] ([[User talk:Gun Powder Ma|talk]]) 02:08, 15 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::Hello [[User:Mikeblas]], none is here at the talk except myself. At least you have a look pls and sort it out.[[Special:Contributions/81.133.43.161|81.133.43.161]] ([[User talk:81.133.43.161|talk]]) 20:45, 28 June 2020 (UTC) |
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:::[[User:TheseusHeLl]] let's start. Which sources are really unreliable? They will be removed. No problem with that.--[[User:Soloccampo|Soloccampo]] ([[User talk:Soloccampo|talk]]) 10:00, 16 August 2020 (UTC) |
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Claiming in his bio that Abbas ibn Firnas was an aviation pioneer, based on one uncorroborated source written EIGHT HUNDRED years later is indefensible. This is not a reliable source by any measure. this is a folk tale at best. When you examine the claim, that he took off and landed from the same spot, you then realise that it is indeed a fabrication. Even with well trained pilots, modern hang gliders can only do this under exceptional wind and geographic conditions. there is no chance someone with wood, canvas, feathers and no prior understanding of flight could do this. The entire premise of this part of the article seems to be nonsensical, akin to having a page claiming witchcraft was real, based on one source 800 years later. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/82.21.187.235|82.21.187.235]] ([[User talk:82.21.187.235#top|talk]]) 13:37, 6 October 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:It's improbable but not impossible. Perhaps by pure chance he returned to the same spot. |
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:The quotation from the court poet who was critical of ibn Firnas gives it some weight (criterion of embarrassment? can't remember) because why would he give him that kudos if it didn't happen? |
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:Someone who is knowledgeable on history in 17th century could weigh in regarding statistics on how many sources from that time period no longer exist today (if it's true that all the sources no longer exist). [[Special:Contributions/165.86.81.72|165.86.81.72]] ([[User talk:165.86.81.72|talk]]) 06:48, 24 November 2022 (UTC) |
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== Not an Arab but an Amazigh? == |
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[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abbas_ibn_Firnas&diff=prev&oldid=990542431]. Putting this here incase anybody wants to talk about it. I'm currently assuming it's WP-wrong to remove Arab, but [[WP:RS]] may convince me otherwise. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 10:27, 25 November 2020 (UTC) |
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== Abu al-Qasim Abbas ibn Firnas ibn Wirdas al-Takurini == |
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What is the source of this very long name? [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 14:46, 15 April 2021 (UTC) |
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== Article issues and classification == |
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:The [[WP:B-class criteria|criteria]] #1 states; {{tq|The article is suitably referenced, with inline citations. It has reliable sources, and any important or controversial material which is likely to be challenged is cited.}} and #4, {{tq|The article is reasonably well-written.}} |
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:The opening sentence in the lead has a『dubious – discuss』inline tag. A "well-written" article would not likely have this. -- [[User:Otr500|Otr500]] ([[User talk:Otr500|talk]]) 15:22, 5 March 2023 (UTC) |
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I reverted a bit of heavy editing, with great trepidation; without a doubt, the article needs a heavy edit, and many problem aspects were addressed- but without, I think, a needed degree of discretion.--Mavigogun (talk) 10:21, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
After the closing of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Armen Firman it seemed the best move was to merge Firman's article here and make it clear that there is substantial doubt as to whether he was actually a separate individual at all. I've gone ahead and edited the content and merged it here. Beeblebrox (talk) 08:24, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This article has been edited by a user who is known to have misused sources to unduly promote certain views (see WP:Jagged 85 cleanup). Examination of the sources used by this editor often reveals that the sources have been selectively interpreted or blatantly misrepresented, going beyond any reasonable interpretation of the authors' intent.
Diffs for each edit made by Jagged 85 are listed at Cleanup4. It may be easier to view the full history of the article.
A script has been used to generate the following summary. Each item is a diff showing the result of several consecutive edits to the article by Jagged 85, in chronological order.
Johnuniq (talk) 11:31, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have tried to remove OR from the section on Amen Firmin. Would help if I had sight of the sources. I am not sure if we can call him an aviator, any more than we can call Elmer one. All the best, Rich Farmbrough, 06:18, 7 April 2014 (UTC).[reply]
In the first line, the text says that Ibn Firnas was "Arab-Muslim", offering two sources. I contest both: first, they are not scientific literature but just popular web resources with no known authorship and second, non of them says actually that Ibn Firnas was personally "Arab-Muslim", although of course he was part of the wider Arab-Muslim civilization, which is not contested and should be clear by the "Umayyad" context. Later in the text it is said again that he was of Arab descent, which needs a source, but none is given (I doubt that a generic mention in a popular US Radio show qualifies as source). I've replaced the wording by a cautelous "sometimes be said of Berber descent", with a link to a Moroccan print media, which does not give any details either but at least has a undubious wording of the claim as such. I foresee debates about this point, thanks for explaining your position. Ilyacadiz (talk) 15:38, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I removed it per this discussion: [1]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:17, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I removed some content from a set of recent edits that repeated most of the article, with a few changes. These cnaged not only introduced a slew of redundant content but also intoduced several dozen referencing errors. I've reverted them, since that seems like the easiest fix. -- Mikeblas (talk) 00:39, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What is the evidence that there is only one sorce for Abas's attempt ? . iread another text writen by『 ابن سعيد』Ibn Saied (1213–1286) in Arabic he mentioned the flying attempt . I think if someone search more , he will get more sources . محمد الباحوث (talk) 05:40, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is one and only one account of the event - by the 17th century Moroccan author Ahmed Mohammed al-Maqqari, reproduced in White, Lynn (1961), "Eilmer of Malmesbury, an Eleventh Century Aviator: A Case Study of Technological Innovation, Its Context and Tradition", Technology and Culture 2 (2): 97–111 (100f.):
"Among other very curious experiments which he made, one is his trying to fly. He covered himself with feathers for the purpose, attached a couple of wings to his body, and, getting on an eminence, flung himself down into the air, when, according to the testimony of several trustworthy writers who witnessed the performance, he flew a considerable distance, as if he had been a bird, but, in alighting again on the place whence he had started, his back was very much hurt, for not knowing that birds when they alight come down upon their tails, he forgot to provide himself with one."
Apart from that, al-Maqqari quotes a verse from "some Mu'min b. Said, a minor court poet of Cordoba under Muhammad I (d. 886 A. D.) which appears to refer to Abbas' flight:"
"He flew faster than the phoenix in his flight when he dressed his body in the feathers of a vulture."
That's all what is said in the primary sources on the gliding experiment. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 08:40, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
User:Doug Weller Hi. So how do we solve this? 81.133.43.161 (talk) 13:54, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:Doug Weller nothing is mentioned about the glider in the article despite plenty of sources. Where is the issue? 81.133.43.161 (talk) 20:19, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Claiming in his bio that Abbas ibn Firnas was an aviation pioneer, based on one uncorroborated source written EIGHT HUNDRED years later is indefensible. This is not a reliable source by any measure. this is a folk tale at best. When you examine the claim, that he took off and landed from the same spot, you then realise that it is indeed a fabrication. Even with well trained pilots, modern hang gliders can only do this under exceptional wind and geographic conditions. there is no chance someone with wood, canvas, feathers and no prior understanding of flight could do this. The entire premise of this part of the article seems to be nonsensical, akin to having a page claiming witchcraft was real, based on one source 800 years later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.21.187.235 (talk) 13:37, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
[2]. Putting this here incase anybody wants to talk about it. I'm currently assuming it's WP-wrong to remove Arab, but WP:RS may convince me otherwise. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:27, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What is the source of this very long name? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:46, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The article is suitably referenced, with inline citations. It has reliable sources, and any important or controversial material which is likely to be challenged is cited.and #4,
The article is reasonably well-written.