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Talk:Cuba: Difference between revisions

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Cuba was nominated as a good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (February 3, 2007). There are suggestions below for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

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This article has been mentioned by a media organization: Pablo Bachelet (2006-05-02). "Cuba entry in Wikipedia stirs controversy". The Miami Herald. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

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I think this section may need some NPOV changing. It only mentions the complaints of opponents to the Castro regime. Other sources, for example, document unusually good prison environments (better than the US). I'll be researching this, but if anyone has mroe information regarding the suppression of dissidents and other topics that would be helpful. Brazzbatch 21:32, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

One notes that information on expulsion of media correspondents from Cuba: "- A BBC reporter is among at least three international correspondents asked to leave.^[1] At least three foreign correspondents based in Havana have been told they must leave the country because of their 'negative' reporting. " This deletion was performed by "Ejercito Rojo" hardly a NPOV pseudonym. El Jigue (a mythological and ancient pseudonym)208.65.188.149 14:54, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The name is Stephen Gibbs of BBC. The page isn't available any more.Xx236 12:58, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

4 Polish and 1 Swiss journalists were expelled in 2005:

• Seweryn Blumsztajn, Gazeta Wyborcza
• Wojciech Rogacin, Newsweek (Poland)
• Jerzy Jurecki, Tygodnik Podhalański
• Anna Bikont, Gazeta Wyborcza

Gazeta Wyborcza is a liberal newspaper, close to the NYT.

Wikinews (Polish) Xx236 12:43, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The economy is communist (or real socialist), not socialist.Xx236 09:11, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is no such thing as a communist economy. Communism deals with politics, such as the rights of the working men, political representation, while socialism with economics and distribution of resources. They are two very different terms. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.110.133.226 (talk) 06:07, 5 May 2007 (UTC).[reply]

You are misinformed. Communism deals with

• exterminations
• slavery
• centralized economy
• centralized distribution of goods - .

Xx236 07:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Miseducation is nice. Do not attempt to associate corruption with communism, as the ideology promotes the exact opposite. corruption is bad, but miseducation is terrible. 83.252.22.54 09:41, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, this is not an attempt at miseducation. Communism is very economic, and if you don't remember that you need to re-read Marx. Of the ten planks of the Manifesto, eight are economic in nature, such as confiscation of private property, creation of a central bank, centralization of credit, etc. Marx advocated the abolition of private enterprise and the creation of a political economy in which the state dictates all economic policies.

The notion of separating Socialism, which is a worker-ruled society (thus economically based), from Communism, a society in which class no longer exists (thus a non-economic society) has its origins in theories promulgated by economists in the early Soviet Union, a negation that Marx's Communism did indeed include economic prototypes. Marcoamedrano 21:04, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Do not attempt to associate corruption with communism" - I haven't literally, one can read my text above. If you mean "everything for party activists, stinking food for workers" it was reality in many countries. In post-revolutionary SU the activists obtained nationalised goods, later the same after WWII - goods from Germany. In any Communist country a distribution network for activists existed, not mentioning shopping visits in degenerated capitalistic countries. Now in North Korea people are starving and the activists obtain imported food of high quality. Xx236 10:37, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why 3900 (not ranked)? 3900 is a CIA quote, ranked there.Xx236 12:27, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Recently not only has there been two reported violent incidents of desperate Cuban military recruits trying to escape [1] [2]. Cuban-Americans consider both reporter Will Weissert (who recently praised the present Cuban health system citing Fidel Castro's "health" as an example『Fidel Castro may be ailing, but he's a living example of something Cubans take pride in — an average life expectancy roughly similar to that of the United States.』[3]) and the US army source, Frank Mora, a National War College professor who made a 2006 presentation lauding Raul Castro as a "moderate") to be less than reliable evaluators of the Cuban circumstance. In addition, there was another incident (two dead) reported today in which "drug smugglers" (this is what the Cuban government is saying and this is not confirmed by drug seizure, but perhaps now that "evidence" will turn up (:>)) [4]. El Jigüe208.65.188.149 19:03, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt many cubans have access to specialists from Spain, unlike Mr. Castro. The multiple botched operations he had before Dr. José Luis García Sabrido began treating him are 100% cuban. Something to be proud of, I'm sure. --74.99.4.147 19:03, 26 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

{{Editprotected}}

Hello,

I would like to edit the following sections: - "Economy": to give comment about the fact that USA forbids its Cuban population to transfer more than $1,200/year to Cuba, which is the reason why not more than ~1.0 billion dollars are not imported to Cuba annually.

- "Independence": to mention that the "formal independence" wasn't really an independence since USA only won this territory after the war with Spain, when USA and Spain signed the peace treaty in Paris, by which USA got the rights to freely intervene in Cuba whenever its interests are jeopardized, by which USA gets a part of Cuban territory, and after which all of the Cuban presidents were under direct influence of USA government. Therefore, in Cuba, independence is celebrated on January 1, after the January 1, 1959. entrance of Castro's army into Havana.

- "From Batista to Castro": to mention that Ernesto Che Guevara was fighting in Sierra Maestra side by side with Fidel, which should be an interest fact, due to Che's popularity in the world.

- "Marxist-Leninist Cuba": to mention that the reason that USSR placed nuclear missiles on Cuba was that the USA had previously placed nuclear missiles in Turkey and some other countries of middle east, which was a direct threat to USSR. Thus, after Khrushchev and Kennedy made an agreement, both Soviet and USA missiles were drawn back, and USA agreed not to impose direct threat to Cuba in the (near) future.

This request among other oversights, omits the interesting point that the Platt Amendment (which allowed the US to interfere in Cuba when violence broke out) was repealed in 1933. El Jigue208.65.188.149 19:14, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Though most of the Platt Amendment was repealed, the section involving the Guantanamo Bay Naval Station was not, thus, the Platt Amendment is still significant.

"Except for U.S. rights to Guantánamo Bay, the Platt Amendment provisions, which many Cubans considered to be an imperialist infringement of their sovereignty,[1] were repealed in 1934, when a new treaty with the United States was negotiated as a part of U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt's "Good Neighbor policy" toward Latin America. The long-term lease of Guantánamo Bay still continues, and according to the treaty that right can only be revoked by the consent of both parties. The Cuban government strongly denounces the treaty on grounds that article 52 of the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties declares a treaty void if its conclusion has been procured by the threat or use of force." - Wikipedia, Platt amendment.

I would like to propose the following modification: from At the same time, the administration authorized plans for an invasion of Cuba by Florida-based exilestoAt the same time, the U.S. administration authorized plans for an invasion of Cuba by Florida-based exiles

Otherwise, it is not clear from the paragraph which "administration" is being discussed. --74.14.18.57 01:55, 6 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I unprotected the page. -- Samir 01:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Transitions of command in communist governments tends to be conspirational in nature. In a series of reports "La Nueva Cuba" (a significant Cuban-exile news source) documents at least two other attempts of Cuban army recruits to flee and suggests that that there is conflict between Raul and the Cuban Communist Party [5]. El Jigue208.65.188.149 21:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How am I expected to review that source exactly? The onus is on you to translate pertinent excerpts and establish the source's notability. El_C 19:53, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

New "revisions" have "bolixed" up page, whole sections have been deleted. This mess has delayed necessary real revisions. e.g economic conditions in first years of Batista's second regime are made to seem far worse than reality, especially present reality. The role of the "mafioso" at this time is exaggerated and not documented. Attempts to shoehorn complex and significant Cuban history into limited space results in gross simplifications and distortion. The retrogression of the living conditions and political freedom of the Cuban society during the Castros' rule is ignored. Acceptance of present government statistics is horrendous El Jigue208.65.188.149 15:31, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You need to be more specific; cite diffs so we know what you're talking about. El_C 19:53, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

While there is no doubt that there were organized crime figures in Cuba during the second Batista dictatorship 1952-1958; the level of these circumstances and comparison to present day situation is not given and is not documented. El Jigue208.65.188.149 17:37, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A pertinent oversight of such a view of history is found in a review by Larry Daley, segment reprinted with permission):

• Garcia-Perez, Gladys Marel (Author), Gladys E. Garcia Perez (Author), Louis A. Perez (Editor), Juan Ortega (Translator) 1998 Insurrection & Revolution: armed struggle in Cuba, 1952-1959 Lynn Rienner Boulder Colordo ISBN-10 1555876110

ISBN-13: 978-1555876111 certainly says such. However, many believe this argument to flawed and badly contaminated by Cuban government propaganda. One should note that “Gladys Marel García-Pérez is on the research staff of the Institute of History and the Center for Marti Studies, both in Havana. Previously she was with the Institute of Social Sciences at the Cuban Academy of Science. Her previous books include Cuando las edades llegaron a estar de pie, Historia del movimiento obrero cardenense, and (as coauthor) Atlas historico-biografico Jose Marti.” [6]

The matter of balance is addressed by Argote-Freyere, Frank 2001 In search of Fulgencio Batista: A re-examination of pre-revolutionary Cuban scholarship. Revista Mexicana del Caribe 6(11) 193-227. [7]

Argote-Fryere author, in this work's first paragraph, cites Louis A. Perez Jr. (who is considered far too liberal by many scholars from the Cuban-American community). Perez writes: “The rendering of the Cuban past in the last twenty years may be in part dishonest, in part mythical, perhaps contrived. It has often functioned as a deliberate device for garnering loyalty and sacrifice. Indeed, Cubans have used history to affirm define, and defend the beliefs basic to the enterprise of the Revolution [Perez, 1980].

A more balanced view is found in

• Horowitz, Irving (Editor) and, Jaime Suchlicki (Editor) 2003 Cuban Communism. Transaction Publishers; 11 edition ISBN-10. Edison N.K. 0765805200, ISBN-13 978-0765805201 This book gives a quite different and more balanced perspective

El Jigue208.65.188.149 18:33, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How does any this relate to the article, specifically, concretely? El_C 19:53, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

C: Well for one thing it documents as falsehoods the pervasive Castro propaganda that still mars this page. El Jigue208.65.188.149 14:15, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A question about phrasing: "American mobsters" Should this be something along the lines "American organized crime?" It seems to me that mobsters lacks the formal tone expected on an encyclopedia. It also could be used informally to express dislike. A more formal tone would address this.

It is a staple of Castro propaganda that "the mafia" were all powerful in Cuba. It is obvious that members of US organized crime families were present in Cuba. However, their numbers and influence has been vastly overrated. For instance I know of no encounter between these elements and rebel forces, before Batista fell from power. El Jigue208.65.188.149 14:15, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. This might be supplemented with a seperate article or expanded on considerably. The current version makes it appear that Italian-American mafia figures were in some way involved in Cuban politics, which was not the case. (RookZERO 19:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Rookzero apparently there are some who dislike pointing this out and perhaps this is the reason that this page has again been protected. Lack of political influence of the "Mafia" in Cuba is easily demonstrated. For instance: Schwartz, Rosalie 1997 Pleasure Island: Tourism and Temptation in Cuba. University of Nebraska Press, Lincoln NA; New Ed edition (February 1, 1999) ISBN-10 0803292651 ISBN-13 978-0803292659 P. 145 “One month after the March 1953 Saturday Evening Post hit the newsstands. Cuba’s military intelligence forces (Servicio de Inteligencia Militar, or SIM) arrested a dozen North Americans suspected of running crooked games at the Tropicana, Sans Souci, and Jockey Club. The government deported eleven of the offenders and announced the problem solved.” p. 137 “Casino owners did not strew North American Garbage across a pristine Cuban landscape. Foreign gamblers introduced neither gangsterism nor vice to the island, nor did they necessarily corrupt righteous islanders. Cubans themselves scoffed at the idea that the mob could “march into Cuba and start giving orders like little Cesar, a reference to actor Edward G. Robinson’s celluloid character. “You just go ahead and send your toughest characters down here,” one Cuban challenged an American journalist. “I guarantee you that even a second-rate Cuban politician will run rings around him.” The mob was playing ball with seasoned veterans, not second stringers.” El Jigue208.65.188.149 00:37, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I was wondering if there is any concrete evidence on the organic food emergence in the Cuban society, The decrease in heart disease associated with an increase in vegetable intake. and such like that. Thank you ++N

++N One can be quite sure there are published statistics fromthe Cuban government pointing this out; and one can be equally sure that these statistics are finagled. El Jigue208.65.188.149 22:16, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So they complain and no such case has been documented yet, no international organization visited the prisons?

What is the meaning of "The neutrality of this article or section is disputed" there? Xx236 10:41, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone know why there is a neutrality tag in the human rights section? Seems as though it may have been vandalism or a mistake of some sort and should be removed, no?

The US is being brought before International Court over the banning of democracy to the citizens of Puerto Rico. Basically because they are banned from being able to vote for the US president.

• Puerto Rico voting ban lands US in international court - By Michael Richardson; Date: Published on Wednesday, June 13, 2007

CaribDigita 23:38, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Puerto Ricans living off the Island can vote in US Federal elections. Periodic votes in Puerto Rico itself show that a majority of Puerto Ricans there prefer by a narrow margin the present Federal tax-free status to statehood which would allow federal taxation. Independence gets little voter support. El Jigue208.65.188.149 15:10, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The following statement represents a one-sided view of Spanish colonial history. The words "oppressed", "enslaved", and "genocide" reflect a personal opinion, rather than an objective historical account:

"The Spanish, as they did throughout the Americas, oppressed and enslaved the approximately 100,000 indigenous people that resisted conversion to Christianity on the island. Within a century they had all but disappeared as a distinct nation as a result of the combined effects of European introduced disease, forced labor and genocide..."

May I suggest that this paragraph is revised thoroughly.

"Well the Spanish needed the gold" is not a good excuse. One can make certain distinctions in some Terra Firme areas such as Mexico where the Aztecs ruled a tyranny. however, given the peaceful nature of the inhabitants of Cuba, this argument does not apply here El Jigue208.65.188.149 17:04, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah sure, as long as you've got the 'reliable sources', to back it. GoodDay 16:37, 28 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good Day, for some in Spain talk of cruelty and oppression is merely "La Leyenda Negra;" however, it seems clear that vast cruelties and killings happened during and following the Spanish conquest of the Americas. One can argue a bit more logically that the Aztec levies on subjugated nations for mass sacrifices offer strong justification for Spanish actions in that region. However, such an argument cannot be applied to Cuban circumstance. El Jigue208.65.188.149 20:52, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tried to insert a new reference in health section:

Hirschfeld, Katherine 2007 Re-examining the Cuban Health Care System: Towards a Qualitative Critique/ Cuban Affairs Vol. 2, Issue 3- July 2007 http://www.cubanaffairsjournal.org/Content.asp

and as much as a tried the following demographic section ended being messed up. Having done such successfully many times before, don't know what is happening now cannot even reverse my corrections please HELP!!!! El Jigue208.65.188.149 23:35, 22 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tried again now looks better but references still bolixed up losing my mind El Jigue208.65.188.149 23:50, 22 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank all you for your help El Jigue208.65.188.149 14:19, 24 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources are reporting top level talks between US and Cuba military. It is said that Perez Roque and Alarcon are out since they are not considered loyal to Raul. El Jigue208.65.188.149 14:19, 24 July 2007 (UTC) This is being followed by some unreasonably flattering reports on Raul's new reign [8] El Jigue208.65.188.149 18:16, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What reliable sources are talking about "top level talks between the U.S. and Cuban military, ditto the Roque/Alarcon comment? Goatboy95 14:24, 26 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Throughout this article, there are a number of misspelled words and grammatical errors. Someone who cares about editing encyclopedias should really go over it with a fine-toothed comb.

Get out your comb. Don't complain about errors, if you spot them, fix them. That's part of being an editor. Don't be shy. GoodDay 17:41, 27 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since Fidel Castro's sickness and bungled operation the quality of health care in Cuba has been subject to question. Here is a widely disseminated report on Castro's health (no reference as yet that is why it has not been inserted into the article); however, since such is considered officially to be a state secret in Cuba it merits attention:

• 1. Fidel Castro is still on IV daily. He can take solid foods, but his

intestines are so deteriorated that he can not absorb the nutrients.

• 2. His knees, which were a problem before his intestinal problems, are much

worse now. His bed stay hurt his musculature and he can only walk a few steps.

• 3. There is some loss of mental capacity, worse by the day, although,

possibly his weekly reflections are written by him

• 4. Nobody of importance thinks Fidel Castro will return to power

• 5. Raul Castro is now fully in charge

El Jigue208.65.188.149 18:57, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And no source whatsoever... jesus, whats wrong with this page?

As expected mention of the standard expropriation of property of those who leave Cuba was deleted by a somewhat less than impartial commentator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:El_C). The deleted material was: "The emigration process could be traumatic." ([www.ajcarchives.org/AJC_DATA/Files/2001_3_SpecialArticles.pdf]) pp. 23-24) And Kaplan continues with a quote from Marek Schindelman: *It is disastrous—the rich have left, some having foreseen the situation, but these are few. all assets [have been] taken over by the government, the militia, or other bandits who have simply taken over everything which our brothers have left behind after having worked for many years, sacrificing themselves to make their way. . . . Those who remain can do nothing; business is dying for lack of merchandise, and the large industries, as well as the..."

One wonders how the supporters of the Cuban government can rationalize the deletion of mention of a standard measure of the Cuban government.

El Jigue[[[User:208.65.188.149|208.65.188.149]] 20:01, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

According to some exile sources Castro's condition is worsening rapidly [9] El Jigue208.65.188.149 15:22, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

... which immidiatelly makes it a dubious source.

The new additions to the Maine explosion section seem somewhat overwrought and one sided. They may well need some correction. El Jigue208.65.188.149 19:51, 9 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A more up to date reference is:

• Samuels, Peggy and Harold Samuels 1995 Remembering the Maine. Smithsonian Institution Press, Washington DC and London ISBN 15609847430

El Jigue208.65.188.149 15:51, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is a web site:

[10]

which shows photos and satellite imagery said to be of the houses of the rich and famous in Cuba. El Jigue208.65.188.149 14:44, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

From an anti-castrist site?... am i the only one seeing that many of the sources are downright POV??, the page you are listing isnt even a source, its a friggin forum!.

Agreed only sources approved by Cuban government should be used. No nonsense published by escaped dissidents should be cited, for that would detract from the glory of the Cuban Revolution (:>)El Jigue208.65.188.149 16:07, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Its a site called "cuban secrets"... how legitimate you think the information in that page is?. And yes, theres a major issue if you use those sites, as there is no way what so ever to know if they are legitimate or not, its like using a far right wing site as a source for an article about Islam; its bound to have a POV issues. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 190.161.198.169 (talk) 01:54, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

Usually when writting an article people use verifiable sources, yet most of this article uses anti-castrist propaganda sites that seem to have little of verifiable dataa. These are:

Hacienda Publishing[11]

SecretosCuba[12]

La NuevaCuba[13]

Apparently some believe that only Cuban government sources can be used, such as recent insertion of Granma article by El C.; and approve the continual deletion of mention of the confiscation of all property of Cubans who leave the Island. Thus, it is suggested that all material posted on the Cuba page be first sent through the new portal that Ramirito Valdez has very recently established for Cuban journalists [14]. El Jigue208.65.188.149 16:01, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Following this criteria (:>) one notes that recent requests for mass donations of copper ornaments [15] can be taken to suggest support for persistent rumors that massive memorial statues are being prepared. El Jigue208.65.188.149 19:17, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

ufff, dont be stupid, im talking about credited news asociations. So far most of the article use dubious forum-like sites that have a clear anti-castro stance. While we are at it, id suggest you learn how to read since i dont recall writting that we should only use Castro's propaganda. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 190.161.198.169 (talk)

Miami Rumor: Castro is dead, Raul and Ricardo Alarcon feuding. Arrests in the department of the Interior ("secret" police), and regular police gathering to prevnt riots. El Jigue208.65.188.149 16:38, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Miami is alive with rumors, TV trucks wandering around to pick up reactions. El Jigue208.65.188.149 19:35, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is a weird but apparently officially sanctioned in Venezuela (and seemingly in Cuba), TV interview characterizing Ernesto Guevara as a trotskyite. It has so much marxist jargon that I could not follow it and got quite bored; however it does feature the not only Celia Hart (Cuban government official?) but also Trotsky's grandson Esteban Volkov. See http://liammacuaid.wordpress.com/2007/08/18/celia-hart-interview/

El Jigue208.65.188.149 19:35, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is said that when something is denied officially it is at least part true. Thus, Hugo Chavez's denial of Castro's death[16] might well be an indication that such has occurred. El Jigue208.65.188.149 23:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

...no, its not. How does that logic work to begin with?. You see, although this all very cute, wikipedia is not either a forum or a place for conspiracy theories and unless CNN, AP, Reuters or the cuban goverment confirms that Castro is dead, he is not at the time. How can i explain this further?, its been 50 years since unofficial sources have states that Castro is dead, remeber a year ago?, everyone was killing Castro because of the operation, did he died then?... why should the rumours be true now?... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 190.161.198.169 (talk) 02:11, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

Dear Anonymous 190.161.198.169: on the Island Castro's health is an official secret. Thus news organizations cannot report on it from Cuba...thus to state as you do:

• " unless CNN, AP, Reuters or the cuban goverment confirms that Castro is dead, he is not at the time." seems rather oddly impractical.

Oh by the way nationality (e.g. Cuban) is capitalized in English, although not in Spanish (e.g. cubano); and also "goverment" should read "Government." Thus, it would appear you are a less well trained native Spanish speaker. Do I have the honor of "speaking" with a Cuban Government official? El Jigue208.65.188.149 16:03, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

...you have issues.190.161.198.169 23:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That last statement is definitely a personal attack and could well be interpreted as a threat from the Cuban government. El Jigue208.65.188.149 15:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I actually mean it, you have issues, i have no idea if they are psichological or if you are underaged, but it seems you dont accept any type of criticism and dismiss it as a whole with rather childish argumetal falacies; in my first suggestion to stop using dubious sources you replied in a sarcastic tone that we should then use Castro's propaganda (even though i never suggested that; you attacked my modest proposal right away), now that i give a rational answer that perhaps Castro is not death (which btw, time has proved me right), you think im part of the Cuban goverment for no reasson whatsoever (you seriously believe that anyone who doesnt talk crap about the cuban goverment MUST be part of the cuban goverment?, whatever happend to unpolarized?). Am i part of the Cuban goverment?, well only one way to find out! [17], search me and weep my friendless friend, why friendless?, well i took the liberty of searching you, turns out you do nothing else BUT meddling in Cuban related topics, with a clear partisan agenda[18]. I wonder, why, so suddenly you seem so scary...190.161.198.169 08:31, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nuttycoconut Thanks was fixing it when your change came through. El Jigue208.65.188.149 16:35, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Let's get one thing straight: Providing a source for a POV statement does not make that statement NPOV or indeed true. The quote about the Cuban health system is obviously inherently POV - it not only says that the health system is "in shambles", it also contains an attack on people who support it. While this may be an appropriate quote in an article which discusses the health system and details the views of its supporters and detractors, it is completely out of place in this article. Zocky | picture popups 16:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I did not make those additions to the article; however, I object to their being completely removed. I do so on the grounds that these statements are sourced and appropriate for an article of this general nature. If you object to the describing the Cuban health care system as being "in shambles," which is indeed true, then the thing to do is not delete the statement but modify the wording such that it conforms to NPOV. If there is a section on the health care system, which discusses all of the "virtues" of the Cuban health care system, then it is wholly appropriate to include criticisms. I had not modified the wording because I did not believe that it was incumbent upon me; nonetheless, I will go ahead and do so. Similarly, I will modify the wording on the living standards in Cuba. There has been a noticeable decline in living standards. Socialists will attribute the cause to "el bloqueo" while liberals will attribute it to an inherent flaw in Cuba's socialist system. In either case though, both agree that the people of Cuba are not living in affluence. I honestly don't care whether Hugo Chavez is called a democratic socialist or a socialist (I don't really see a difference between the two since they both have the same goal in mind), so I leave that question to someone who does. Finally, there are government conferred privileges in Cuba , as the source points out. That "peculiar institution" is one that does merit mentioning since there are few other governments that engage in such discrimination. Freedomwarrior 17:16, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Almost every country in the world provides housing and medical benefits to government employees and certain other people, like recipients of certain awards, war veterans, etc. Those benefits differ by the position in the government or public services or the type of award. How on earth is that specific to Cuba and what makes it a "class privilege"? Zocky | picture popups 18:40, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cuba, unlike most countries in the world, has a litmus test for whether one can serve as a bureaucrat. For a person to serve as a bureaucrat or work in the tourism sector, they must be members of the Communist Party. Essentially, Cuba's socialist system has created a class of bureaucrats, the nomenkaltura, who, because of their unique ties to the Communist Party, have access to a whole host of privileges that are not available to other Cubans. While opposing capitalism because it supposedly led to the creation of an『oligarquía』that enjoyed a lifestyle that was not available to the working man, Cuba's socialist government has created is own version of an "oligarquia" with men such as Julio Casas Regueiro, head of GAESA, at the top. That is how it is a "class privilege." It is not a criticism that can be directed exclusively at Cuba (since all socialist governments have manifested such a system); however, it is worth noting how Cuba differs from the norm internationally. Freedomwarrior 21:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I was concerned about referring to Castro as a "prime minister". According to the American Heritage Language Dictionary 4th edition, a prime minister is " the head of the cabinet and often also the chief executive of a parliamentary democracy" I don't believe that the island of Cuba can be called a "parliamentary democracy". Who was the last person to run in an election against Castro? Or better yet when was the last election? One could then argue that Batista was a "president" or "prime minister" and not a dictator, as referred to here in the text. Since he came to power through a military coup and has not held elections in decades I think the term Dictator is more appropriate. The definition for a dictator is "an absolute ruler". Also I would argue that there really isn't a Cabinet at all, but instead a military junta of ex-military rebels who hold military ranks and serve at the appointment of the dictator. Therefore I have edited the text as appropriate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.19.42.74 (talk) 21:03, August 22, 2007 (UTC)

What did you do? Inserting huge bulk of info without any single reference? Please read our core policies of neutral point of view and verifiability plus related guidelines before you add the same material. Thank you. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 21:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

PM or dictator → To help you a bit i suggest you read Let the facts speak for themselves if the NPOV policy is too much fro a reading. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 21:53, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are a few citations to "American Policy Failures in Cuba--Dagger in the Heart!" This book is of questionable accuracy and is almost forty years out of date. I recommend the citations be replaced with modern citations that can actually be checked or the statements of the citations be removed.66.41.163.240 14:56, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]