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Talk:Kurdistan

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WARNING: ACTIVE COMMUNITY SANCTIONS The article Kurdistan, along with other pages relating to the Syrian Civil War and ISIL, is designated by the community as a contentious topic. The current restrictions are: Limit of one revert in 24 hours: This article is under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24-hour period) Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be sanctioned. Remedy instructions and exemptions Enforcement procedures: Violations of any restrictions (excluding 1RR/reverting violations) and other conduct issues should be reported to the administrators' incidents noticeboard. Violations of revert restrictions should be reported to the administrators' edit warring noticeboard. Editors who violate any listed restrictions may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offense. An editor must be aware before they can be sanctioned. With respect to any reverting restrictions: Edits made solely to enforce any clearly established consensus are exempt from all edit-warring restrictions. In order to be considered "clearly established" the consensus must be proven by prior talk-page discussion. Edits made which remove or otherwise change any material placed by clearly established consensus, without first obtaining consensus to do so, may be treated in the same manner as clear vandalism. Clear vandalism of any origin may be reverted without restriction. Reverts of edits made by anonymous (IP) editors that are not vandalism are exempt from the 1RR but are subject to the usual rules on edit warring. If you are in doubt, contact an administrator for assistance. If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. Remember: When in doubt, don't revert!

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Semsûrî seems determined to include the idea of Kurdistansky Uyezd (“Red Kurdistan”) into the modern conception of Kurdistan, based on its 1923-1929 existence; however I feel this does not line up with the majority of reliable sources. First, there are very few Kurds left in that area following Soviet deportations in the 1930s and 40s, and the area is not connected to the other 4 regions based on cardinal compass directions. While I believe it is notable enough to include mention of “Red Kurdistan” in the lead as a historical example of an administrative area controlled by Kurds in the 20th century (along with the Republic of Mahabad which Semsûrî keeps reverting out for some reason), I don’t see justification for making the reader believe that there is any kind of attempt to resurrect “Red Kurdistan” or include "southern Transcaucasia" territory within Azerbaijan or Armenia as part of Kurdistan in the present day.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 17:11, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You base your edit on your baseless claims, that's the problem. First of all, you write ' based on its 1923-1929 existence ' but that's not true. Kurds lived in that region all the way up to the 1990s until they were expelled by Armenian forces during the war with Azerbaijan.[1] The text simply defined the boundaries of Kurdistan, nothing about Kurdish irredentism also including Caucasus-territory. --Semsûrî (talk) 18:13, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Semsûrî, an area having any Kurdish population is not the only variable for being perceived as part of Kurdistan generally in the modern era. For instance, there are large Kurdish populations (also by %) in central Turkey, Istanbul, and Khorasan Province in NE Iran, but these areas are also not usually included in the wider conception of Kurdistan (based on several factors, including them not being congruously connected) to the four main regions (N,S,E,W). Parts of Azerbaijan or Armenia are not often included in maps of Kurdistan in the present day. However, yes, it is notable to mention “Red Kurdistan” and its historical existence, along with the others I have recently added (Ararat, Kingdom etc) in my recent additions. The dispute we are having is that you are contending that the majority of sources consider “Red Kurdistan” to be part of a present-day notion of Kurdistan. I think that would need to be proven here in the TP as it does not line up with the majority of the sources in my view.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 18:36, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Redthoreau: I'm not referring to Kurdish enclaves nor am I claiming that cities like Istanbul or Ankara are Kurdistan. However, Kurdistan does in fact stretch into the South Caucasus (which this map also vaguely notes[2]) and moreover from West Azerbaijan Province into Nakhchivan. The only reason "Red Kurdistan" was mentioned in parenthesis in my version is due to the fact that it is/was the largest Kurdish community in the whole Caucasus region and thus a note for readers. If your main issue is the mentioning of Red Kurdistan, we can easily solve it by removing it from the sentence that defines the geography of Kurdistan. However, areas in South Caucasus are in fact connected to Kurdish-populated areas in Turkey and I still believe that should at least be mentioned. Even if Kurds explicitly refrain from claiming the areas in South Caucasus in their quest for independence. --Semsûrî (talk) 18:58, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Semsûrî:, if your contention is that Transcaucasia or the South Caucasus (I'm not sure which you prefer) is universally seen as a 5th region of Kurdistan currently, and that it should be noted, I think that could be possible. However, I remain unconvinced that the majority of sources consider it so. What are some of the sources you’re using to base that off of? And what wording do you believe would fix your concern? For instance, if the lead sentence said:

Contemporary use of the term refers primarily to the following four areas: southeastern Turkey (Northern Kurdistan), northern Syria (Western Kurdistan), northern Iraq (Southern Kurdistan), and northwestern Iran (Eastern Kurdistan), and to a less degree the South Caucasus.

Would this be enough? As "Red Kurdistan" is already mentioned elsewhere in the lead. Or do you think there should be no delineation from the 4 cardinal direction regions (N,S,E,W) and the South Caucasus?  Redthoreau -- (talk) 05:43, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Redthoreau: I'm not fond of the wording Contemporary use to be honest. What about: Kurdistan roughly encompasses southeastern Turkey, northern Syria, northern Iraq and northwestern Iran.^[1] Other definitions include parts of southern Transcaucasia.^[2]?

Encyclopaedia of Islam excludes Caucasus, while World Encyclopedia by Oxford University Press includes it and quotes are present.--Semsûrî (talk)

@Semsûrî:, the reason I think ‘contemporary’ is helpful, is that the spatial conception of Kurdistan is fluid (like most areas that experience war, invasion, migration etc), and it establishes that these are the currently perceived regions. This places the burden of sourcing only in the present day, and not on whether a certain area was considered “Kurdistan” 150 years ago etc – which seems to be where much of the Talk Page disputes arrive from on the various Kurdish-related regions.

However, placing 'contemporary' aside, and using your wording as the basis, I think I would adapt it to:

Kurdistan generally encompasses the following four areas: southeastern Turkey (Northern Kurdistan), northern Iraq (Southern Kurdistan), northwestern Iran (Eastern Kurdistan), and northern Syria (Western Kurdistan). Some definitions also include parts of southern Transcaucasia.

I would use “generally” rather than “roughly” (which appears twice in the first lead paragraph already), and “some” rather than “other” since not all do as you display, and adjust the listed order to match the N,S,E,W order found in the infobox. Your thoughts?  Redthoreau -- (talk) 23:33, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Redthoreau: I can support that quote but don't know if the N,S,E,W in parenthesis is needed at all when its already mentioned in the infobox. --Semsûrî (talk) 00:23, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Semsûrî:, I believe the N,S,E,W are necessary because they help the reader conceptualize why and how these 4 regions fit together to make the whole (since many may not be geographically aware how these relate to one another). In fact, I would contend it is potentially the most important detail of the entire lead in understanding what makes up Kurdistan for a novice to the topic.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 00:42, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Redthoreau: Alright, the sentence should be changed to the second quote then. --Semsûrî (talk) 11:46, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Semsûrî:, ok. I have done so.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 20:53, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Semsûrî, what do you mean "source needed or is it OR?" ? Its an academic scholar source published by the University of Cambridge. Its trustworthy and no further example is needed. And if you want an example here it is: Al Jazira region of Syria. An area that was minority kurdish and kurds saw it as "Kurdistan" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:17, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You should add a source that states that an example of this is Al-Jazira which is claimed as majority-Kurdish by Kurds despite not being so, then. --Semsûrî (talk) 13:44, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The academic source does not say "claimed as majority-Kurdish by Kurds despite not being so" it says: "These maps have become some of the most influential propaganda tools for the Kurdish nationalist discourse. They depict a territorially exaggerated version of the territory of Kurdistan, extending into areas with no majority Kurdish populations.". As an example you can see this map from the institutkurde.org [3] It shows half of Hatay/Alexandretta province as being part of Kurdistan. The population is mainly Alawite Arabs, Sunni Arab and Sunni Turks, historically also Christian, Armenian and Circassian. Kurds have never been close to being a majority there. Yet this map shows half the area as being "Kurdistan" including a large section of coastal Mediterranean land. Kurdistan is a Mediterranean country now all of a sudden? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:59, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Like who used the maps? The by far most influential Kurdish party now is the PYD and they are clearly not nationalist and encourage other nations to live in cultural freedom. If some minor Kurdish party promotes a nationalist discourse, it should be noted that the discourse is of a minority of the Kurds. The Institute Kurd also shows other maps like those which show mainly the area where Kurds live/d historically. I'll check if the Institute Kurd map is really shown as a source for the book of Zeynep Kaya.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 20:08, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I never said the Institute Kurd map is shown as a source for the book of Zeynep Kaya. Semsûrî asked for an example and I provided one where Kurds have created a map that shows non-kurdish majority areas as Kurdistan. A similar map reaching to the Mediterranean can also be seen here: [4] That map is from a "Kurdish delegation" in 1956.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:49, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Paradise Chronicle, what does KDPS cultivating Kurdish culture through Kaveh the Blacksmith and the books of Ahmad Khani and Cigerxwîn has to do with this "Kurdistan" article? [5]--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:14, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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PLEASE ADD the KURDISTAN flag. Koerdistangov (talk) 22:10, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: I think you're thinking of Kurdistan Region. – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:55, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:09, 7 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, lede, 3. para, 2.sentence: "While there were a large number of disparate Kurdish dynasties, emirates, principalities and chiefdoms established from the 8th to 19th centuries." The "while" leads me to expect more. T 84.208.86.134 (talk) 05:27, 21 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]