This article is supported by WikiProject Color, a project that provides a central approach to color-related subjects on Wikipedia. Help us improve articles to good and 1.0 standards; visit the wikiproject page for more details.ColorWikipedia:WikiProject ColorTemplate:WikiProject Colorcolor articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Anthropology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Anthropology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AnthropologyWikipedia:WikiProject AnthropologyTemplate:WikiProject AnthropologyAnthropology articles
About Darwgon0801 repeatedly reverting edits without posting an edit summary
Darwgon0801, you are repeatedly reverting changes to Light Skin without adding an edit summary. For some reason you have a problem with Koreans being called "East Asian", and you also have a problem with "East Asian" being reverted to the original ordering in the introductory paragraph.
I noticed that you recently added "Central Asian" in front of "East Asian", although the article has no Perhaps you very much want "Central Asian" to come first for some reason?
Please explain your reasoning here for why you are reverting edits on Light Skin. Also, please explain why you are reverting edits in the edit summary in the future. Biosaurt (talk) 04:52, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
User:Rainbluetiful attempting to remove the East Asian category from the article
Rainbluetiful, this article is about Light Skin, not "rosy skin" or "no tanning response" or whatever your interpretation of Light Skin is. As the introductory paragraph states, "Light skin is most commonly found amongst the native populations ... as measured through skin reflectance". In other words, "Light Skin" is defined by numerical data obtained by using a color spectrophotometer. The Fitzpatrick scale is not used by cosmetic dermatologists in the literature anymore, because it always relied purely on subjective assessment and has been rendered obsolete by actual skin color measurements.
East Asians have long been recognized to have light skin, and there are dozens of scientific articles stating this in this article alone. Many sources that have been a core part of this article for years clearly state that East Asians commonly have light skin. The image of East Asian athletes that you keep on trying to remove portrays women with skin that measures very brightly by a color spectrophotometer, which is the definition of "light skin" as defined in this article. The East Asian women in that image are actually the lightest skinned people shown in the article.
The Norwegian woman has light brown skin due to her tanning response. The same can be said of the images of Afghan/Pakistani children and the Syrian woman. Despite the Norwegian, Syrian, and Afghan children having tanned skin to various degrees, they still would be considered to have "Light Skin" because the definition of "Light Skin" does not say anything about having zero tanning response, only that the skin must obtain high brightness values when measured by a color spectrophotometer.
Also, you seem to have just created that account. I will assume in good faith that you simply don't know the proper standards that Wikipedia articles are upheld to. As a general rule, Quora posts and links to social media posts are not considered valid sources here on Wikipedia. Also, as a general rule, it is not acceptable to remove sourced content from articles simply because you disagree with it. The image of East Asian athletes is an important component of this article, as it provides an example of one of the most major groups of people that are commonly recognized to have "Light Skin". Moreover, it more than satisfies the definition of "Light Skin" by this article's standards. Please refrain from removing it again in the future. Biosaurt (talk) 12:45, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even one of the links or source you provided contains the Fitzpatrick or skin phototype scale. Even this article about uses the skin phototype scale and read the article further before forming a conclusion.
That Norwegian woman provided in the photo provided doesn't look entirely light brown or brown. It's more rosy beige or peaches and cream complexion. You can see she is light skin due to the rosiness or noticeable slight rosiness. Rainbluetiful (talk) 23:30, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Norwegian also looks like she is phototype II-III. She has a light phototype and looks different from a tanned skin person. The majority of the koreans in the photo you provided look pale too but no rosiness or ruddiness showing,
I used a color detecting website to find out what color their tone is and it's more like light skin with cream, greenish, or pure beige tones (no ruddy tones at all, not even slight). The Norwegian showed more reddish or ruddy tones with some beige too, not entirely light brown/tanned.
Again: light skin looks rosy or ruddy or slightly peaches n cream due to this. "For people with very light skin, the skin gets most of its colour from the bluish-white connective tissue in the dermis and from the haemoglobin associated blood cells circulating in the capillaries of the dermis. The colour associated with the circulating haemoglobin becomes more obvious, especially in the face, when arterioles dilate and become tumefied with blood as a result of prolonged physical exercise or stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system (usually embarrassment or anger)" Rainbluetiful (talk) 23:40, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Replying to user Biosaurt: ACTUAL light skin of MOST East Asians (I just want to add "SOME PARTS OF East Asia" Im not removing "East Asia" and I wanted to be more specific.)
I just want to change it to "some parts of East Asia". I'm not completely removing East Asian after seeing the sources provided. I'm very certain that my info is right and I'm always keen to research and verifying info.
Biosaurt don't act like as if you are the creator/owner of this article and anyone can edit as long as the information is not false or misleading. Unfortunately I can't edit again because I know it's risky to do so and would be seen as edit warring if re-edited several times. It's just a minor edit and shouldn't be seen as a very big deal (adding factual sources behind your edit is a big deal though).
Im having an issue about this because when I edit Biosaurt would revert his own edits back no matter what. I need help regarding this matter. Biosaurt would say that my sources is subjective even though it's actually based on both my deep research and seeing East Asians in person and on social media.
I'm not attempting to remove the "East Asian" from this article. Im Asian too so I know a lot about this and Ive been exposed to different kinds of Asian people. As far as I know majority of East Asians have a pale looking skin with a cream or slight golden undertone and there is nothing wrong with that (I can provide many links and sources as much as I can for PROOF) Majority (not all) of their skin phototype is similar to olive skin (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive_skin, this skin tone can look very pale is sun exposure is limited, but it's quite different from "light skin" since it doesnt really sunburn) I know that parts of East Asia especially the very Northern parts has this rosy-looking light skin tone.
Light skin looks pinkish or rosy toned due to a lack of eumelanin or active melanocytes, I hardly see most East Asians with that rosy tone too, I've seen a few but it's mostly in parts of Northeast Asia, parts of Mongolia, Manchuria or Northern Asia. Regular light skin without cream/olive tones can be found in some Northern Chinese I think, very few Japanese and few Koreans (though not extremely common). Light skin without rosiness tans more easily and retains cream undertone. Even many East Asians have confirmed this.
Unfortunately my edit keeps on getting removed. According to my research:
1) The majority (of course not all) of East Asians have a light skin with fast melanin production which contains slight cream, olive, golden, or yellowish tones, this tans easily unlike light skin without olive tones. Their skin tone can turn very pale with sun protection but still retains that cream/slight golden undertone and isnt really translucent, not usually seen in naturally light skin people, more on warm pale olive skin people. Almost all the East Asians I've seen in person and online has this type of light skin.
2) On this article, "light skin" most likely refers to the slightly pinkish or slight cool toned-looking with translucency. I have read this article and all the pictures of light skin people shown have this slight rosy, ruddy or translucent tone (not plain creamy white). True light skin doesn't easily get tanned, lacks that olive tone and is prone to some sunburns and sun damage. It can be found in a minority of East Asians, thats why I added "some parts of East Asia"
3) The light skin gene of East Asians in general doesn't really lack melanin, so no matter how pale they get they still have active melanin production underneath their skin, hence thats why their skin isn't so rosy. This is also why many East Asians skin tones can vary.
4) On this article, the type of light skin they are most likely referring to is SLC24A5 or Ala111Thr (which is seldom or not found in most East Asians)
5) In Japan, majority have a skin type that will eventually tan easily afterwards (which is over 85%): This sounds like light olive skin, not regular light skin. Minority fall under Type II https://www.biteki.com/skin-care/trouble/299606
11) Chinese skin phototype (around 71.4% percent are type III, 14.2% are type IV which means that majority fall under III to IV - 85.6%) Only a minority are phototype II (14.7%) Thats why I wanted to change to "parts of East Asia" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16869866/
12) Another scholary or academic source showing the skin phototype of koreans in Korea. "The order of frequency of skin type was type III(48.8%), IV(22.2%), V(17.8%) by the interview method, with the sun sensitive categories(type I and type II) reported for 11.2%." https://www.koreamed.org/SearchBasic.php?RID=2303247
Biosaurt you are acting quite hostile over a small edit and your beliefs sound quite subjective too, Wikipedia is a place for objective facts not subjective feelings or opinions. Yes I have seen East Asians with light skin that doesnt contain cream golden tones (more like the rosy pinkish translucent type seen in many light skin Europeans) but that sighting isn't extremely common and it also doesn't mean every East Asian has light skin, hence why I wanted to add "parts of East Asia" or "some parts of East Asia".
Again, this article is about "Light Skin", not the Fitzpatrick scale that you keep on bringing up. This means SKIN REFLECTANCE, or the ACTUAL COLOR OF THE SKIN. The Fitzpatrick scale is generally considered obsolete, and the article does not even mention it by name. But even if you insist on changing the definition of Light Skin to only take into account the Fitzpatrick scale, multiple studies cited by this article have found that 20-30% of East Asians have type II skin. Even your own research shows double digit percentages of East Asians as having Fitzpatrick type II skin, which would mean hundreds of millions of people in real life. It is not necessary for 100% of members of a certain group to have light skin in order to be included in this article. If it were, then we would need to remove West Asia, Central Asia, North Asia as none of those regions have light skin very commonly (certainly less common than in East Asia). Even Europe would need to be removed under that definition.
It's strange that you only want to change East Asian, when West Asians and Central Asians do not usually have light skin and many Europeans don't have light skin either. If you're so insistent on adding "SOME PARTS OF East Asia", then why not add "SOME PARTS of Europe", and "rarely in West Asia", etc.? Why not remove the pictures of the Norwegian woman, the Afghan children, or the Syrian woman, all of which have darker skin than the East Asian women? None of that should be necessary, as this article makes no claim that ALL of the people in any of those regions have light skin.
You are attempting to remove a valuable part of the article that demonstrates what Light Skin looks like. The East Asian women in that picture have the lightest skin of any of the examples in the article. The picture contains a range of skin tones, but some of the women in that picture have skin that would be considered "white as snow" even by European standards. "Cream colored skin" or whatever isn't a scientifically defined category. All that matters is skin reflectance, and the studies I've found show that Korean women have an overall brightness (L*) value of 68 and Chinese women 66, compared to typical European values in the 62-68 range (as found in Jablonski's paper). The Norweigian woman has darker skin than those East Asian women, and the Afghan children have significantly darker skin, yet you seem to be OK with keeping those images. Why is that?
It's strange that you only want to change East Asian, when West Asians and Central Asians do not usually have light skin and many Europeans don't have light skin either. If you're so insistent on adding "SOME PARTS OF East Asia", then why not add "SOME PARTS of Europe", and "rarely in West Asia", etc.?
Links to Quora and such are worth about as much as used toilet paper. They go against WP:Reliability which states: "Content from websites whose content is largely user-generated is generally unacceptable. Sites with user-generated content include personal websites, personal and group blogs (excluding newspaper and magazine blogs), content farms, Internet forums, social media sites, fansites, video and image hosting services, most wikis and other collaboratively created websites."
I have already added sources from peer reviewed scientific journals that measured the skin reflectance of East Asian women and found values similar to those of European populations. That is the definition of Light Skin that is used in the cosmetic dermatology field and this article, not the Fitzpatrick scale. There is no specific gene that defines Light Skin, as the trait has been independently evolved multiple times. Europeans lack the MFSD12 gene that East Asians have, so does that mean we should remove Europe as well? Obviously not.
You seem to have a VERY different idea of what "Light Skin" means, one that has little to do with actual skin lightness. I have explained this to you multiple times now. I am not being hostile, I am just explaining why you cannot go through with removing proven, sourced aspects of an article that you personally disagree with. I hope you will refrain from removing any parts of the article from now on. You are free to contribute to the article, although if you try to use Quora as a source someone will definitely come and delete your content. So far, what you have been doing is degrading the quality of the article, however. Biosaurt (talk) 18:53, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If the skin is naturally light or fair skinned, it looks either at least slightly or significantly rosy due to low levels of eumelanin and has a risk of sunburns. Light skin without any rosy tints is some kind of cream skin tone. Yes it's fact-checked and I have done deep research about this. Rainbluetiful (talk) 22:56, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why I wanted to be more specific by adding "PARTS of East Asia" or "SOME PARTS of East Asia" Just a small edit it's not that big.
I have been exposed to many light skin people and seen many pictures of what a true light or fair skin looks like, i recommend you to read about "skin undertone" or "skin phototype". For instance it's possible for someone to have a pale/light looking skin with skin phototype III to IV due to high melanocyte or tanning ability (look up pale skin with golden or olive tones.)
Heres what it said about light skin:
1) "For people with very light skin, the skin gets most of its colour from the bluish-white connective tissue in the dermis and from the haemoglobin associated blood cells circulating in the capillaries of the dermis. The colour associated with the circulating haemoglobin becomes more obvious, especially in the face, when arterioles dilate and become tumefied with blood as a result of prolonged physical exercise or stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system (usually embarrassment or anger)" - basically the skin tone has this noticeably rosy tone due to this. The light skin of MOST east Asians isn't that rosy.
2) People with very light skin (skin phototypes I and II) make very little melanin in their melanocytes, and have very little or no ability to produce melanin in the stimulus of UV radiation. - SOME East Asians have this skin phototype I-II or II-III, but majority have phototype III to IV despite their lightness. Rainbluetiful (talk) 23:22, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"SOME PARTS of East Asia" is not a defined statement and doesn't have any way to back it up. Which parts of East Asia do you mean? There are people with light skin found pretty much anywhere in China, Korea, Japan, or Mongolia, as [1][2] and [3] show. The article is not making the claim that ALL East Asians have Light Skin, just that it can be found there.
It doesn't seem to add any value to the article to specify "SOME PARTS of East Asia". If you mean "SOME East Asians have light skin", then that is already what the article is stating. There just doesn't seem to be a reason to specify that when that's already what the article is implying.
Also, again, Light skin purely has to do with the LIGHTNESS OF THE SKIN. It doesn't have to be red in color like you say. The East Asian women in the image have light skin by anyone's standards, and they clearly have lighter colored skin than the other images. Removing that picture is purely a degradation of this article's contents.
If you absolutely have to specify "SOME East Asians", then you will have to also add "SOME Europeans have light skin" and "SOME West Asians have light skin" and "SOME Central Asians have light skin" and "SOME North Asians have light skin", especially in the case of West and Central Asia, since the vast majority of people there don't have light skin and the average skin color is darker than in East Asia. But again, that seems completely irrelevant and doesn't contribute to the article's contents.
Also, I am East Asian with skin that typically burns and doesn't tan well. I have spent all of my life around "white people". For many of them, their skin tans more easily than mine, and is darker than mine. My entire family is like this, and I see other people like me all the time when I visit my home country. You are probably from South Asia, so you don't have any experience with East Asian phenotypes beyond what you see on social media websites like Quora, a website which can be extremely vitriolic, ignorant, and racist at times. There is no point for you to try and convince me what my people look like.
Many Europeans have skin phototype I-II or II-III, many Central Asians can have II-III as well. Not many people in East Asia have I-II or II-III skin phototype. That's why i wanted to add "some parts or parts of East Asia"
Majority of East Asians have light or pale skin with phototype III to IV or just III which is more like a moderate skin phototype.
Again I'm also Asian too. Relax and calm down about this, of course I'm not going to entirely remove "East Asia" after finding that some of them have phototype II. It seems like you're going to disagree with new edits no matter how much the new editors convince you by providing various factual sources no matter what.
Read the whole article and don't just focus on the main part of the article. And are you the boss or owner or the creator of this article? Rainbluetiful (talk) 00:26, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As I have said before, this article is not about the Fitzpatrick scale. It is about skin that is light in color. As you yourself admit, "the majority of East Asians have light or pale skin". Whatever classification the Fitzpatrick scale they fall on doesn't matter for the purposes of this article, as their skin is literally light in color.
And even if the Fitzpatrick scale is the sole determinant of what constitutes light skin (which is false of course), all three sources in my previous reply show that about 20-28% of East Asians fall into category II. That is around 425,000,000 people with type II skin, probably more than any other part of the world in total numbers.
I am not the "boss" of this article, I am simply trying to prevent you from degrading the quality of the article by doing things like using Quora as a source or coming up with your own definition of what "Light Skin" is. The article already has Light Skin defined, and it does not need to be changed. Biosaurt (talk) 00:45, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
