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Talk:The Holocaust in Estonia: Difference between revisions

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There is no such thing as "Holocaust in Estonia", instead it is "The Holocaust", the categoy is totally fake. All the articles tagged here are done so by User:Petri Krohn, known anti Estonian POV pusher. There are no articles-categories "Holocaust in Latvia", "Holocaust in Belarus" or "Holocaust in Lithuania". This is simple Original Research and POV pushing and without whatsoever notability or reliable sources.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.233.72.189 (talk • contribs) 13:53, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest that particular points of the article be shown to be inaccurate or lacking in supporting sources before arguing for overall deletion.Mtsmallwood (talk) 09:42, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have read through this article carefully and made some edits in an effort to make it more organized. My concern here is that the article seems to focus too much on the role of Estonians in perpetrating the Holocaust. All of the information may well be supported in the references. However it does seem to me, from my work in writing Rumbula massacre that there is an imbalance here between the role of the native collaborators and the German occupying forces. Certainly in Latvia there was the Arajs Kommando, which is put in fairly good perspective by the Wikipedia article on that point. If Estonians were more actively engaged in the Holocaust than other occupied peoples, that point should be clearly made and supported by authority. I realize this is a sensitive topic and so I urge careful and thorough documentation of any material statements of fact.Mtsmallwood (talk) 14:36, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The reason you noticed that the article seems to focus too much on the role of Estonians in perpetrating the Holocaust is because this article was created as a WP:POVFORKtoOccupation of Estonia by Nazi Germany#Holocaust in Estonia 1941 - 1944 by an IP, probably a sock of one of a number of banned users. I've reverted to the original redirect. Martintg (talk) 22:58, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Propose adding a bias tag then.Mtsmallwood (talk) 22:30, 31 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Underlying POV issue remains unfortunately.Mtsmallwood (talk) 19:49, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I wish this article agreed with Jews_in_Estonia#World_War_II, because now this one has some POV-fork undertones. And I am sorry, but Wikipedia is not a memorial, the lengthy list of redlinks at the bottom should go. Colchicum (talk) 00:31, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Now we have three unwarranted forks: Occupation_of_Estonia_by_Nazi_Germany#Holocaust_in_Estonia_1941.E2.80.931944, Jews_in_Estonia#World_War_II and this one. Colchicum (talk) 00:58, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This article heavily misrepresents Weiss-Wendt and Birn and quotes them selectively. Colchicum (talk) 01:02, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't read those sources, what little I know comes from study of Rumbula massacre, but the overall tone just didn't seem right to me.Mtsmallwood (talk) 03:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, yes, basically this article uses the sources to justify the fringe opinion that the Estonians in general were collaborators and supportive of the Holocaust. In fact the sources explicitely say pretty much the opposite. However, everything from the sources that doesn't fit the anti-Estonian agenda is carefully omitted here. Colchicum (talk) 20:57, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See: [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.131.106.16 (talk) 11:30, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:RS, WP:NOTMEMORIAL etc. Colchicum (talk) 23:53, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

just don't make sense. Vaivara is 230 km distance from Klooga. And the quote from Birn's article relates not to the liquidation of the camp. --Dodo19 (talk) 15:41, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I guess it would be smarter fo you to read the cited source before deleting it. The inmates of Vaivara camp were transported to Klooga for slaughter. This was the only instance of Estonians present at a camp when the executions took place. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 19:41, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, the Vaivara camp was not liquidated in Klooga, but the inmates of the Vaivara camp. Maybe you should be more precise in what you write, because what you write is obviously not what you mean. --Dodo19 (talk) 19:52, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have restored the deleted content, these issues are well sourced. The article itself is however a total mess – the two incidents do not need their own sections. I would prefer reverting back to this old version from 8 January 2009. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 17:20, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Roma people section content does indeed seem to be sourced in the old revision, so I added that (presumed) reference to the statement. I still did not see any additional sources that would have covered the sexual slavery section, however, and as I previously explained in my edit summary, the provided source does not really confirm the statement in the section. (There's no way I could call it "well sourced"...) So I removed it. As for the proposed reverting: I prefer not to involve myself in that discussion. —Quibik (talk) 17:52, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In about 20 edits I have now managed to patch together much of the sourced content in the original version. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 20:49, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Inthis edit on 22 April 2010 by Jaan (talk · contribs) he replaced the sourced info about Estonian collaboration in the extermination of the Klooga concentration camp with opposite but sourced information about the non-involvement in the liquidation of the Vaivara concentration camp. I have reverted the removal of the sourced information. Jaan did however provide this source, which is no longer used:

• Riho Västrik, Meelis Maripuu (2006). "Vaivara concentration camp". In Toomas Hiio, Meelis Maripuu, & Indrek Paavle (ed.). Estonia 1940–1945: Reports of the Estonian International Commission for the Investigation of Crimes Against Humanity. Tallinn. pp. 719–738.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link) CS1 maint: multiple names: editors list (link)

-- Petri Krohn (talk) 20:36, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(Moved from User talk:Petri Krohn#Number of Holocaust victims -- Petri Krohn (talk) 07:43, 18 August 2010 (UTC))[reply]

An excellent source would be Anton Weiss-Wendt's book "Murder without hatred" - no one can accuse him of having any Estonian sympathies, quite the opposite. His numbers are very similar to History Commission's findings (actually, even slightly lower) and reached completely independently.

Also, I don't think the death of Soviet POW's can be included to Holocaust numbers, but, then again, I am not a specialist on that area. It might be better to use non-Soviet sources, as Soviet ones are not especially known for accuracy. Do Soviet numbers include the number of soldiers killed in battles, perhaps? Otherwise the discrepancy is just too big.

--Sander Säde 06:23, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the reference. I would love to have the book, but I found it a bit too expensive for my Wikibudget (I did however spend a hundred Euros to digitize some photos from the Estonian state archives.)

As for the numbers, I have no idea as to the reason for the discrepancy. I will try to find more specific sources on the breakup of the numbers. However, I feel it would primarily be the responsibility of the Estonian History Commission to explain how and why their numbers differ so much from previously published numbers. I do not remember if they have done that – if not, it would go a long way in undermining their credibility.

At this moment I am still looking for the 20,000 missing Jews who were imported to Estonian camps and somehow mysteriously survived the Holocaust. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 07:40, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]