| Request name | Motions | Initiated | Votes |
|---|---|---|---|
| Persistent WP:IDONTLIKEIT behavior in WP:NCROY discussions | 10 May 2024 | 0/3/0 |
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Currently, no arbitration cases are open.
Recently closed cases (Past cases)
| Case name | Closed |
|---|---|
| Venezuelan politics | 25 May 2024 |
| Request name | Motions | Case | Posted |
|---|---|---|---|
| Amendment request: Article titles and capitalisation | none | (orig. case) | 7 June 2024 |
| Clarification request: mentioning the name of off-wiki threads | none | none | 4 June 2024 |
| Amendment request: India-Pakistan | none | (orig. case) | 27 June 2024 |
| Clarification request: Contentious topics restrictions | none | none | 10 June 2024 |
| Amendment request: World War II and the history of Jews in Poland | Motion | (orig. case) | 21 June 2024 |
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Initiated by AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) at 02:29, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
NOTE: Additional requested moves have taken place where debates on WP:NCROY occurred. The below list encapsulates, in chronological order, the discussions the original poster (OP) thinks are relevant for this case request.
Dear ArbCom,
I apologize in advance if my tone is improper. This is my first request.
At the core of this case request are behavioral concerns regarding how disagreements with WP:NCROY have been expressed. I come to ArbCom to request binding guidance on how to cease the constant user drama over how WP:NCROY should be applied. I also come to ArbCom to request binding guidance for all users on how to react when a personal interpretation of any guideline is rejected by community consensus.
I do not know if the linked discussions count as acceptable “lesser” methods of dispute resolution. However, over many months, at a plethora of venues, from talk pages to RMs and RfCs, bludgeoning, forum shopping, and even breaches of 5P4, among other concerns, have taken over conversations on WP:NCROY and left many users (myself included) exhausted.
I fail to see how any further discussion at WP:ANorWP:ANI can address such frequent and widespread behavior. Moreover, given the persistence in how some users have acted when their opinions are rejected, I likewise do not believe the non-binding guidance of WP:DRN will address these frustrations, which go beyond content disagreements.
Now, I will be honest - I am guilty myself of having let my emotions take over and acted disruptively when arguing for my interpretation of WP:NCROY. Additionally, I have owned up to and apologized for these lapses in judgement: A, B, and C. Furthermore, I have even started RMs to implement the consensus of WP:NCROY despite my personal disagreements: D.
What does it say about the community when RMs go a few months without a formal closure, only to be taken straight to a WP:MR discussion with comments inappropriate for such a venue (as noted in E)? Above all, what does it say about the community when closers of RMs are hesitant to even participate in closing WP:NCROY-related discussions (for fear of starting heated and possibly WP:UNCIVIL discussions): F and G?
Finally, I apologize if I have invited users who do not wish to participate in this case request. The basis of my proposed parties are (as I see) the key participants of two recent MR discussions for Edward IV and David III of Tao. But these are far from all the users involved. And the fact that I am saying this is a major reason that I am filing this case request.
Thank you very much for your consideration. Other users are welcome to elaborate on what I have discussed. I request an extension of my word count to answer inquiries from other users.
Sincerely,
AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 02:29, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with AndrewPeterT that the current situation around NCROY and its related RMs is exhausting, and I think it's good to see what if anything can be done to improve matters, or at least make things smoother in future RM cycles.
I also agree (in a way) that IDONTLIKEITorJDLI are a big part of the problem, but not in the way AndrewPeterT seems to suggest. Some participants in recent RMs have developed the bad habit of dismissing any and all opposing arguments as mere JDLI even when they explicitly and repeatedly appeal to policy, guidelines, title criteria, etc. This seems to stem from the belief that there is only a single valid interpretation of policy or application of guidelines: their own. This is tendentious, it shuts down productive discussion, and — if we want to get to a place of more healthy and less contentious debate — it needs to stop. (Q.v. wbm1058's statement.)
If it doesn't, then what we see at NCROY is almost guaranteed to continue:
That last point is worth reiterating, since I've seen repeated suggestions that the RMs must close per NCROY regardless of any and all objections — and worse, that anyone who suggests otherwise is being disruptive. If that's so, then RMs are pointless and should be abolished entirely, and guidelines applied automatically to every article title via undiscussed moves. If it's not, then we need better recognition that there can be multiple valid views regarding how to interpret and apply our policies and guidelines.
I'll also offer a gentle suggestion: if a change to any guideline stirs extremely divided and contentious responses whenever editors seek to apply it, then it might be worth taking that as a sign that the guideline itself should be revisited and improved. As others have rightly noted, more editors have participated in these RMs than in the RfC that changed the guideline, and I don't think their views should count for nothing. ╠╣uw [talk] 11:02, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies if the following is not entirely coherent and/or cogent. I have not slept well in several days and am not functioning at my best.
I find my thoughts on this matter proceeding in a similar manner to Robert McClenon's. My first reaction upon seeing this late last night was that this is surely premature: this is a content dispute with no egregious conduct problems that I can recall. Many people are very unhappy about a relatively minor titling matter and the repeated litigation surrounding it is becoming a nuisance, but what's new? We're here because we enjoy sinking hundreds and thousands of hours into building a quality encyclopedia in one of the most exposed corners of the Internet; I think that makes all of us at least a little bit more obsessive and neurotic than the average person. Stuff like this is bound to happen (and does, regularly) and generally doesn't matter all that much, relatively speaking.
Having said that: the more I think about it, the more amenable I find myself to ArbCom doing… something. Guerillero is correct in his observation that many people who are aware of the global consensus have been attempting, in many cases explicitly, to oppose its implementation locally ([1][2][3][4][5]) rather than to amend the guideline. This has become quite noxious. Several related RM discussions have been listed at closure requests for months, suggesting that experienced closers are weary of dealing with them. I myself closed two of them, and partly through my own carelessness and partly because of this drama, both were challenged; I have little appetite to involve myself further.
I don't pay much attention to the world of contentious topics, but I understand situations like this to be what they are for. I know that AN can authorize contentious topics and deal with conduct disputes, but I don't anticipate AN being adequate here. AN is good for cases that are sufficiently simple or egregious to gather a critical mass of interest; I think the problems here are too subtle, and that either ArbCom will need to deal with them or the community will need to utterly exhaust itself of this business. The latter is probably actually possible in this case, but I doubt this should be considered preferable. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 22:05, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was tagged in by a notice. I'm not quite sure what this is, never having participated in "arbitration" event before, and not sure what is being asked.
It seems evident that there are inconsistencies and incompatibilities between Wikipedia policies and the recently-changed NCROY guideline. So the relative weight given to them in closures of RMs are natural points of contention. Walrasiad (talk) 02:24, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I probably should be listed as a proposed party, as I initiated both the Nicholas II and Edward IV/Edward V RMs.
I think this filing is premature. There have been many content discussions on this matter, but I have not seen many conduct discussions on this matter. There is a problem, but I don't think we are at the point where this an ArbCom problem. I think a referral to AN—as unappealing as that sounds—is the next thing to try here. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 15:26, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Thryduulf: venue is everything. In this case, you can't change guidelines at a specific article's talk page, no matter how many people show up to the discussion. (Of course, editors might raise a reason to IAR specific to that page at a talk page, with the caveat you laid out at Wikipedia:Ignore all rules is for uncommon situations.) If the editors wish to change the guideline, WT:NCROY is the place to do that. Not (e.g.) Talk:Edward V.
If ArbCom does not take this case—which I still believe is the best course of action, even if I completely understand why people would think otherwise—I do think a statement saying (essentially) go to AN and/or WT:NCROY, but if there are further problems go directly to ARC (do not pass go, do not collect $200)
would be helpful. As others have said, there is a problem of a type which historically ends up at ArbCom, but I think the non-ArbCom community should at least try to solve it first. And I think we have a better chance at coming up with a solution if we know ArbCom is the alternative. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 02:24, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is a very poorly stated, rambling Request for Arbitration, but there may actually be a valid issue for the ArbCom to answer. My first thought was that maybe the ArbCom ought to warn the filing editor, or ought to consider whether to impose sanctions for frivolous litigationorvexatious litigation. My first thought was mistaken. The filing editor does have a valid question. The question is: Should the naming of articles on royalty be designated as a contentious topic? The filing editor lists a very large number of Requested Moves involving royalty. Maybe most of these requests are tendentious. If so, the contentious topic procedure should be used to topic-ban editors from troublesome requested moves. Alternatively, some other sort of disruptive editing may be interfering with the resolution of these naming discussions.
There is an issue for ArbCom to consider, which is whether the naming of articles on royalty is a contentious topic. ArbCom should open either a case or a discussion. The filing editor has identified a problem that ArbCom should address. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:51, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
User:HouseBlaster raises an interesting point, which is that the community has had (too) many content discussions concerning the naming of articles on royalty, but has not attempted to discuss the conduct issues that cause the content issues to be discussed repetitively. This raises the question of whether ArbCom can impose contentious topic rules before the community tries to deal with conduct. It also raises the related question of whether the community can define a contentious topic that can be dealt with in the same way as an ArbCom-defined contentious topic. I have seen the second question discussed, and do not recall seeing the second question answered. Can the community establish a contentious topic?
If the community can establish that royalty names are a contentious topic, then I mostly agree with HouseBlaster. If so, a two-part dispute can be sent to the community at WP:AN. The first part is that, if anyone wants to contest the closure of the autumn RFC, they can do so at WP:AN, which will probably confirm it. The second part is that the community can deal with the conduct issues. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:11, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The consensus at the autumn RFC is quite clear and as noted it brings the guideline inline with most other titles of being concise unless disambiguation is needed. Yes I understand the change in the guideline is controversial but given as noted it brings it inline with the general titling policy thus I don't think the change can be said to be controversial enough to ignore it in RMs especially when there isn't an overwhelming majority or !votes against it, see WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. Disclosure; I did not participate in the autumn RFC but I have participated in some of the recent RMs and MRs. I can be added as a party if people want to add me. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:20, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Primefac: the issue isn't that people are starting a bunch of move requests. The problem is that certain editors are using those move requests (and move reviews) to re-argue a previously decided request for comment. (I think I've participated in some of these discussions, so that might make me involved FWIW). ~~ Jessintime (talk) 19:14, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I closed the RM noted as anticipating a move review, based on multiple other move reviews being initiated when the close didn't go the way one or other side wanted. It's clear to me that there are conduct issues, I had cause to single out Born2Cycle as the worst but far from only offender in that RM for example. Multiple of the other parties are familiar from other page titling disputes too, which have failed to be resolved at AN(I), so I strongly suspect there will be an arbitration case around the topic of page titles and/or other manual of style issues at some point but I don't think this specific dispute is the right framing for that. The first step to settling the content aspect here should be to assess whether the consensus of commenters in the NCROY RFC matches the consensus of the community at large, and if not what to do about that. Those are not questions for arbcom. Thryduulf (talk) 19:19, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I believe Guerillero's comment is insightful. Looking at the poor opening statement of the case filer, one might hastily conclude that this is all bark and no bite, but there have been serious underlying issues of poor conduct in this topic area; most notably, as Jessintime notes, relitigation policy discussions for discussions on articles subject to the policy has been extremely common. If ArbCom choose to decline this case as premature, I would be shocked if it didn't make its way back after months of wasting time with noticeboards and talk pages and deletion/move/administrative action reviews. If there is a chance we will end with one of those contentious topics whose necessity will be bewildering in a decade's time, better now than in a year's time. I would prefer not to drive away valuable editors because of an increasingly toxic part of the project. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:30, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm in general agreement with Thryduulf. Opening a case on this topic seems premature. The current implementation of WP:NCROY is unfortunately too open to personal interpretation and too vague to implement. Expecting everyone to come to the same exact conclusions with such an unclear guideline is unrealistic. It also seems like it may be unrepresentative of community consensus given the results in so many RMs. Designating the area as a contentious topic would not solve those fundamental problems. What is needed is a broader and more rigorous attempt to find and define consensus. Enforcing contentious topics procedures for this topic area would be exceedingly difficult given the current state of consensus and the guideline. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 01:56, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In a 2012 case, "Article titles and capitalisation", the Arbitration Committee warned Born2cycle that his contributions to discussion must reflect a better receptiveness to compromise and a higher tolerance for the views of other editors.
Born2cycle (block log) was indefinitely blocked for disruptive editing in March 2018 per this. I unblocked him after nearly 3 months had passed: a nearly 3-month first block is of sufficient duration, and is well beyond the norm for a first block for tendentious editing
, and have been generally pleased at his improved behavior since, but am concerned that he is relapsing. HERE, on February 14, I see another editor expressing concern about tendentious comments in an RM discussion. In the currently longest running RM, open a whopping 116 days and counting, I see two "Notes to closer", the second one pointing to two other discussions, one of which was endorsed, and one of which was overturned – both in favor of the naming convention that B2C supports. I read this as a not-too-subtle threat that any close that doesn't go his way will be taken to move review. A quick glance at that discussion, where the request has plenty of opposition, gives me the initial impression that it should close as no consensus, which would result in the page title remaining the same. But any potential closing administrator should realize that the next step will be another tendentious discussion at "move review", where the closing admin risks the embarrassment of watching their close get overturned. – wbm1058 (talk) 02:43, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think this warrants a case yet, in particular the proposer has failed to show a case where the community has repeatedly failed to arrive at a conclusion w.r.t. the conduct of the users involved. Generally agree with what @Thryduulf: said. --qedk (t 愛 c) 13:36, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information.
Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse)
