Contents

Wikipedia:Civility/Poll: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 19:37, 29 June 2009

• User:FayssalF/Civility pages - a summary
• User:Geogre/Civility
• User:Giano/On civility & Wikipedia in general
• User:Moreschi/Alternative_Civility_Policy

Please place your view below the appropriate section with respect to how the civility policy, in how it is written, applied, and enforced by the community, including the arbitration committee. if you feel specific sections are problematic, please place new proposals or ideas at the bottom. If too strict or lenient, place a word to indicate where problem is (policy/interpretation/enforcement/other). I am interested how editors feel that civility (and breaches thereof) is being enforced in practice.

1. The policy is simple and clear, but not applied consistently. Fred Talk 12:11, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
2. The combination of WP:CIVIL and WP:CONSENSUS makes it impossible to rid ourselves of the chronically uncivil. In short, per Fred. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 16:02, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
3. I advocate, without irony, a zero tolerance policy on incivility, and would support any adjustments to the policy (which is not bad in general) to that effect, as well as much more stringent and even-handed enforcement. For good reasons, we do not generally tolerate name-calling in our real-life professional environments, and we should not do so here.  Sandstein  19:15, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
4. Far too lenient. I think the problem is that too many editors view the Wikipedia community as a microcosm of their own whole real-life community, where incivil behaviour is tolerated, and without strong consequences for unacceptable actions or comments. No big deal if you flip your finger at the guy who cut you off. But I think that analogy is flawed; Wikipedia is more of a workplace staffed by volunteers, and the workplace environment should be protected. If I volunteered my time at a local community center, but was rude and abrasive to my co-workers, I would probably be asked to leave. We ought to do the same more often here. Editing on Wikipedia is a privilege, not a right. Also, long-time editors should not have relaxed standards or be forgiven for incivil behaviour by virtue of their contribution history, per WP:No vested contributors. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 19:36, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

1. (And unenforceable). The framework of all that is needed for civility is encompassed in WP:PA: Racial, sexual, homophobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, or other epithets (such as against people with disabilities) directed against another contributor. Disagreement over what constitutes a religion, race, sexual preference, or ethnicity is not a legitimate excuse. Wikipedia isn’t a nunnery; it is the real world and Wikipedia’s civility policy has been overly influenced by squatters (Read: WP:OWN) until it has absurd and completely impractical requirements, such as [no] feigned incomprehension, “playing dumb” and [No] judgmental tone. Too often, flat-out mean and disruptive (but highly experienced) editors can pull stunts like harass editors by nominating a page in a users’ own userspace for MfD or delete someone’s RfC and get away with it without even a three-hour block because they use polite wikiwords while doing so. Wikipedia’s civility policy needs to be revised to prohibit what should truly be the litmus test: is the conduct disruptive? Greg L (talk) 16:27, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

1. The policy, while laudable as written, has not been consistently enforced, and it's possible that as written, it is difficult or impossible to enforce at all. "Civility blocks don't work" is a truism. ++Lar: t/c 12:40, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
2. More to the point, it is impossible to enforce in a manner that is both consistent and objective. Ultimately what is and is not civil is a subjective manner; there are egregious violations of the policy but far more fall in to the grey areas. At what point should the policy be enforced? When someone is grossly incivil, when they are habitually rude? Curt and burusque? Trying to define a brightline cutoff is going to be arbitrary, but without a cutoff point any enforcement of the policy then becomes itself arbitrary. As stated above, the policy is laudable and the goal behind it is certainly worthy, but the enforcement thereof is just not workable. Shereth 15:15, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
3. Both in practice and how it should be. Its status as a policy implies that it is an instruction to be civil, rather than advice. Civility is an abstract; you cannot force a person to be civil like you can force them not to use personal attacks or harassing methods; you can only advise people to be civil like advising them to AGF or be bold. Possibly the strongest evidence for this is how blocks are applied for violations: blocks for not following policy (harassment and POV-pushing) work, blocks for not following guidelines (RS and AGF) tend not to. In this respect, civility works more as a guideline than anything. Along the same lines, I'd support changing POINT to policy, as that's more quantifiable and would work better as a policy. Sceptre ^(talk) 15:16, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
4. Agree with Lar. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 15:50, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
5. Agree with those above. لennavecia 15:57, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
6. Obviously. --Malleus Fatuorum 16:09, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
7. Though I don't feel unenforcable is the right term. It is enforced-unevenly and often unfairly, which is the problem.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 16:15, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
8. Second RDH opinion. It's just a convenient witchhunt tool. NVO (talk) 18:20, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

WP:CIVIL is enforceable, provided that you're willing to ban the persistently uncivil. Only if you're unwilling to do so does the policy become unenforceable, and in that respect it's no different from any other policy. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 16:15, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What is the bright line? 3RR works pretty well because there's a pretty clearly delineated bright line, 3 reverts. You can say "blocked for crossing the line" or even "blocked because you're revert warring even though you didn't cross the line, it's a line, not an entitlement" and it usually sticks. But what is "persistent uncivility"? (don't get me wrong, I know it when I see it, but that's not a good enough definition) Better to block when the civility crosses over into disruption, perhaps. Except that fosters a culture of being snarky but not so snarky that you can be called on it. ++Lar: t/c 17:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is your contention that the only enforceable policies are the objective ones? That doesn't bode well for WP:NPOV, WP:CONSENSUS, WP:NOR... Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 17:45, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

These aren't holy cows either... some worship the cows, others eat them. All it takes to feel the difference is a bus ticket. Time for the ride is long overdue. NVO (talk) 18:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There has been discussion in past as to whether a post on a user's talk page, often in reply to a hostile poster, should be treated more leniently than posting elsewhere on other discussion or WP pages where dialogue occurs. Please indicate views below.

1. My talk page serves as such a place. Non-directed incivility is fine there, as noted on my user page and to those who frequent my talk page. Directed incivility would, of course, be a personal attack. لennavecia 15:59, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
2. --Malleus Fatuorum 16:10, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
3. --R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 16:15, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
4. Yes, even though they are still "public" pages, I believe that users should be allowed to relax the "civility rules" on their own talk pages. — Ched :  ?  17:33, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
5. -- Benders Game 19:37, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

1. A post on someone's talk page is an attempt to communicate with them. A hostile or degrading response is inappropriate. Fred Talk 12:14, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
2. Per Fred. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 16:02, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Myself I am leaning towards this - a userpage may allow people to vent in borderline cases only. Not unequivocal attacks though. Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:33, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

IMO, anything except from main article space is really the same. Article space has no place for any user bickering at all. So I recommend specifically excluding it from the scope. NVO (talk) 11:02, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Good point, I would have thought that was obvious really, so might reword above. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:10, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]